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Time to wake up and stop liscensing.
sovereignman
Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1pSvEUAneE&NR=1Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
Comments
How about backing up your posts with some details?
Please tell us some details about your buying and selling of firearms. Such things as do you actually own any guns, did you buy them out of the trunk of some unknow guys car in an alley somewhere, do you sell guns to anybody that wants one, and etc.
How about backing up your posts with some details?
I would be happy to answer your questions when you answer those that were posted in the original quote, and answer why.
Did you take the time to watch the videos? Did you understand the ramifications of the basis of the topic? Are you an agent of the BATF or other government power broker?
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Please tell us some details about your buying and selling of firearms. Such things as do you actually own any guns, did you buy them out of the trunk of some unknow guys car in an alley somewhere, do you sell guns to anybody that wants one, and etc.
How about backing up your posts with some details?
I would be happy to answer your questions when you answer those that were posted in the original quote, and answer why.
Did you take the time to watch the videos? Did you understand the ramifications of the basis of the topic? Are you an agent of the BATF or other government power broker?
You are too far South for me. Carry on.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Please tell us some details about your buying and selling of firearms. Such things as do you actually own any guns, did you buy them out of the trunk of some unknow guys car in an alley somewhere, do you sell guns to anybody that wants one, and etc.
How about backing up your posts with some details?
I would be happy to answer your questions when you answer those that were posted in the original quote, and answer why.
Did you take the time to watch the videos? Did you understand the ramifications of the basis of the topic? Are you an agent of the BATF or other government power broker?
You are too far South for me. Carry on.
Maybe your to far North....
Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
Every time I fill out a 4473, I fully understand that I am foregoing the enforcement by me of a Constitutionally guaranteed right. There is a difference, however, in foregoing enforcement and giving up.
Most utility weapons can still be purchased anonymously in a FTF transfer. The day that situation changes will be when the right is totally given up.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
Every time I fill out a 4473, I fully understand that I am foregoing the enforcement by me of a Constitutionally guaranteed right. There is a difference, however, in foregoing enforcement and giving up.
Most utility weapons can still be purchased anonymously in a FTF transfer. The day that situation changes will be when the right is totally given up.
I understand your position,but a right unexercised, is a right lost.
Just look at open carry is most of the States, NO permit required.
Why aren't these so called gun owners practicing open carry? That would be a great first step and it is legal in most states.
Every one scrambling for a concealed "permit" from their master the government.
Gun owners are to blame for many of our problems. Form groups in States that allow open carry and do so "every day" and start carrying openly to events.
I am in a socialist state and fight every day for the right to carry openly. I predict we will win this cause within the next year or so in this backward run illegal immigrant infested state.
Again a right not used is a right lost.
http://opencarry.org/press.html
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
Every time I fill out a 4473, I fully understand that I am foregoing the enforcement by me of a Constitutionally guaranteed right. There is a difference, however, in foregoing enforcement and giving up.
Most utility weapons can still be purchased anonymously in a FTF transfer. The day that situation changes will be when the right is totally given up.
I understand your position,but a right unexercised, is a right lost.
Just look at open carry is most of the States, NO permit required.
Why aren't these so called gun owners practicing open carry? That would be a great first step and it is legal in most states.
Every one scrambling for a concealed "permit" from their master the government.
Gun owners are to blame for many of our problems. Form groups in States that allow open carry and do so "every day" and start carrying openly to events.
I am in a socialist state and fight every day for the right to carry openly. I predict we will win this cause within the next year or so in this backward run illegal immigrant infested state.
Again a right not used is a right lost.
http://opencarry.org/press.html
Well then, I will reframe my orginal question. You preach a lot about how most of us are not conducting ourselves properly regarding resisting the government and their gun control schemes.
So......what exactly is it that you do to resist your government gun control schemes other than lecture us other gun owners that are doing the best we can?
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
Every time I fill out a 4473, I fully understand that I am foregoing the enforcement by me of a Constitutionally guaranteed right. There is a difference, however, in foregoing enforcement and giving up.
Most utility weapons can still be purchased anonymously in a FTF transfer. The day that situation changes will be when the right is totally given up.
I understand your position,but a right unexercised, is a right lost.
Just look at open carry is most of the States, NO permit required.
Why aren't these so called gun owners practicing open carry? That would be a great first step and it is legal in most states.
Every one scrambling for a concealed "permit" from their master the government.
Gun owners are to blame for many of our problems. Form groups in States that allow open carry and do so "every day" and start carrying openly to events.
I am in a socialist state and fight every day for the right to carry openly. I predict we will win this cause within the next year or so in this backward run illegal immigrant infested state.
Again a right not used is a right lost.
http://opencarry.org/press.html
Well then, I will reframe my orginal question. You preach a lot about how most of us are not conducting ourselves properly regarding resisting the government and their gun control schemes.
So......what exactly is it that you do to resist your government gun control schemes other than lecture us other gun owners that are doing the best we can?
Questions: Does taking license from government,any government, constitute the loss of principles laid out by the 2nd amendment as laid out by our founding fathers.????
Are FFL dealers considered an arm of the federal government?
Did the ATF along with FFL dealers get a border agent killed in the fast a furious debacle? Were FFL dealers responsible for many deaths?
Are you part of the problem?
I am active in many venues of 2nd amendment actions including petitions, letters, court actions in the past,news articles etc.
Question:Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
Please tell us some details about your buying and selling of firearms. Such things as do you actually own any guns, did you buy them out of the trunk of some unknow guys car in an alley somewhere, do you sell guns to anybody that wants one, and etc.
How about backing up your posts with some details?
I met an unknown man yesterday in a secluded parking lot. He showed me a gun he had for sale. I looked it over and gave him a wad of fiat federal reserve currency.
We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
His identity remains a mystery to me, just as mine does to him.
Welcome to traditional America, fox.
Ooooh, scary stuff, huh fox?
Perhaps we should have called an agent of the DHS or the BATFE to come and make us fill out paperwork to document the sale and identify who the seller and the buyer were.
America would certainly be a safer place if we had done so.
Yes, it constitutes a loss of founding principles in that specific instance
Are FFL dealers considered an arm of the federal government?
They are not an 'arm' of the fed-gov. They are acting as 'agents' of the fed-gov as it relates to their FFL activities.
Did the ATF along with FFL dealers get a border agent killed in the fast a furious debacle? Were FFL dealers responsible for many deaths?
The BATFE facilitated getting Agent Terry murdered via their actions. The FFL dealer(s) are not responsible in any manner. The miscreant who pulled the trigger on Agent Terry is responsible as is the rogue anti-constitutional agency who directly facilitated the means to commit the act.
Are you part of the problem?
Since none of us have rucked-up and opened the fandango, we are all part of the problem, including you, I suspect.
I am active in many venues of 2nd amendment actions including petitions, letters, court actions in the past,news articles etc.
So?
Many of us do the same or similar. How's that working out for the Republic?
Question:Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes, it does, IMO. Just as consenting to a search of your person, papers, house or effects constitutes a voluntary waiver of certain rights.
The point?
Many of us understand and work in our own ways to educate and influence towards liberty.
Yes or No? Why?
It is the right to vote.
We the people, can effectively change the constitution or modify its givens by our voting in mass for individuals who legislate our agendas.
If you don't like the regs, vote them out and vote in someone who will change them, its the American way.
Easily spoken, unless you stand as a minority in a sea of idiocy we here refer to as California. I and others like me vote as constitutionally minded conservatives, but unfortunately even our republican representatives play the democrats' game to keep their paycheck coming in...don't let this happen nationally. Information and education is key to keeping a democracy free. ALSO, John Adams noted that, "If good men do not involve themselves in politics, others will." Wise.
Best Regards!
In the United States, majority rules. Does the candidate with the least votes win? Of course not. Does the House at present time have a republican majority, no. Its either compromise or just plain majority rules.
We are a Republic not a Democracy. You really should read the Constitution and some of the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Please tell us some details about your buying and selling of firearms. Such things as do you actually own any guns, did you buy them out of the trunk of some unknow guys car in an alley somewhere, do you sell guns to anybody that wants one, and etc.
How about backing up your posts with some details?
I met an unknown man yesterday in a secluded parking lot. He showed me a gun he had for sale. I looked it over and gave him a wad of fiat federal reserve currency.
We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
His identity remains a mystery to me, just as mine does to him.
Welcome to traditional America, fox.
Ooooh, scary stuff, huh fox?
Perhaps we should have called an agent of the DHS or the BATFE to come and make us fill out paperwork to document the sale and identify who the seller and the buyer were.
America would certainly be a safer place if we had done so.
Thanks, first registration then confiscation.
Let's see where does the 2nd say registration? Hummm. I dont seen to be able to find it anywhere.[:D]
The right to infringe on your gun rights, comes directly from the constitution. Its a very basic right.
It is the right to vote.
We the people, can effectively change the constitution or modify its givens by our voting in mass for individuals who legislate our agendas.
If you don't like the regs, vote them out and vote in someone who will change them, its the American way.
Your right, "vote them out" you say. But what has happened in America to get us to this point.
1. American politicians allow millions of illegals and legals into this nation many if not most vote progressively leaning to anti Constitutional values. This constitutes a mindset shift to socialism.
Im sure others here can add points to this, be my guest.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Please tell us some details about your buying and selling of firearms. Such things as do you actually own any guns, did you buy them out of the trunk of some unknow guys car in an alley somewhere, do you sell guns to anybody that wants one, and etc.
How about backing up your posts with some details?
I met an unknown man yesterday in a secluded parking lot. He showed me a gun he had for sale. I looked it over and gave him a wad of fiat federal reserve currency.
We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
His identity remains a mystery to me, just as mine does to him.
Welcome to traditional America, fox.
Ooooh, scary stuff, huh fox?
Perhaps we should have called an agent of the DHS or the BATFE to come and make us fill out paperwork to document the sale and identify who the seller and the buyer were.
America would certainly be a safer place if we had done so.
Thanks, first registration then confiscation.
Let's see where does the 2nd say registration? Hummm. I dont seen to be able to find it anywhere.[:D]
Perhaps if you had been around long enough, or read a few posts, you would realize that 'green italics' is the official Gunbroker sarcasm font.
In the United States, majority rules. Does the candidate with the least votes win? Of course not. Does the House at present time have a republican majority, no. Its either compromise or just plain majority rules.
No, it doesn't.
This is a Constitutional Republic and our Constitution and founding principles are specifically designed to secure the rights of the individual against the majority.
In addition, you display massive ignorance about the Constitution or our system in the following statement... quote:The right to infringe on your gun rights, comes directly from the constitution. Its a very basic right.
It is the right to vote.
We the people, can effectively change the constitution or modify its givens by our voting in mass for individuals who legislate our agendas.
If you don't like the regs, vote them out and vote in someone who will change them, its the American way.Amendment II specifically prohibits government from infringing on the RKBA.
There is absolutely NO provision for a citizens voting in representatives who can change the Constitution.
Changes to the Constitution are only to be made via the Amendment Process, not by legislation by or judicial fiat.
There is a very specific process outlined in, you guessed it, the Constitution, on how the process works and applies. Any changes or attempted changes made outside the Amendment Process are completely illegitimate.
You and the government can stick you agenda's up your *.
In the United States, majority rules. Does the candidate with the least votes win? Of course not. Does the House at present time have a republican majority, no. Its either compromise or just plain majority rules.
Maybe you should read this and get back with us.
http://adask.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/the-organic-laws-of-the-united-states-of-america/
Time to wake from your sleep.
Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes or No? Why?
There are a lot of ignorant citizens in America.
And update for Illinois in part.
Illinois - Statewide
Capping a quarter-century of legislative victories on the right to carry firearms outside the home, Wisconsin enacted one of the nation's strongest "shall issue" concealed carry permit laws in July. This left Illinois as the only state with a total ban on carrying firearms for personal protection away from one's home or place of business. To change that, NRA-ILA is continuing to promote Right-to-Carry legislation at the state capitol. But we're also challenging in court.
The case is Shepard v. Madigan, currently pending in the U. S. District Court for the Southern District of Illinois. The lead plaintiff is church treasurer Mary Shepard, who, along with an elderly co-worker, was severely beaten at her workplace by an attacker with a criminal record. Ironically, Mrs. Shepard has carry permits issued by two other states, but was left unarmed and defenseless by Illinois' law. Her challenge - in which the Illinois State Rifle Association, NRA's state affiliate, also joins as a plaintiff - contends that Illinois' carry ban cannot stand in light of the Heller and McDonald decisions.
After the case was filed, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit decided Ezell v. City of Chicago (see discussion on Chicago litigation, below). Among the important points in that decision was the court's ruling that "broadly prohibitory laws restricting the core Second Amendment right . are categorically unconstitutional." Based on that ruling, Mrs. Shepard's attorneys have now asked for an immediate preliminary injunction against enforcement of Illinois' carry ban.
Illinois - Chicago
Politicians have taken the same approach in Chicago, where just four days after the McDonald decision, then-Mayor Richard Daley got a unanimous City Council to vote for a new law that (among other things) prohibits possession of a gun anywhere outside the living space of a home (even on a porch or in a garage). Chicago also banned all gun stores and gun transfers (except by inheritance) in the city. The city also required mandatory training in order to get a permit, including at least one hour of live fire - while also banning shooting ranges within the city limits.
Four days after the council vote, NRA-ILA supported a group of Chicago residents challenging the worst provisions of the new law. Also joining the case of Benson v. City of Chicago is the Illinois Association of Firearms Retailers - a state affiliate of the National Shooting Sports Foundation -- whose members would open gun stores and shooting ranges in Chicago if not for the new law.
Fortunately for Chicago residents, the shooting range ban was struck down on July 6 in Ezell - a case limited only to the shooting range issue. In its opinion, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit ruled that "The right to possess firearms for protection implies a corresponding right to acquire and maintain proficiency in their use," and noted that "It's hard to imagine anyone suggesting that Chicago may prohibit the exercise of a free speech or religious-liberty right within its borders on the rationale that those rights may be freely enjoyed in the suburbs. That sort of argument should be no less unimaginable in the Second Amendment context."
While Ezell was not NRA-ILA's case, our more comprehensive challenge in Benson continues. Chicago's range prohibition was only one way in which the city is continuing to thumb its nose at the U.S. Supreme Court and the rights of law-abiding gun owners. As noted earlier, Chicago also bans gun possession not only outside the home, but in parts of the home such as garages, porches and front steps; bans nearly all firearm transfers and on the operation of gun stores; and restricts each Chicago license holder to keep only one "assembled and operable" firearm within the home. This case is in discovery through October, in which both sides have the opportunity to demand documents and take statements from opponents.
Best Regards!
Both parties are the same tread on different make tires.
Americans foolishly have been marching left and right for many years now, it's time to get citizens to wake from their sleep. How do we do this?
First joint blogs, facebook, and other social networks. Post information to the masses on Constitutional laws and freedoms.
Expose Rhino's Socialists, and progressives for what they truly are.
Posting on this site is ok but it does little to get truth out to the masses.
Write editorials in your local papers, damn it get involved if your not.
Join the tea party, it's not perfect but it's a start to the right path to freedom.
Be vocal at your town hall meetings. We make a point to visit town hall meetings of liberals and ask the hard questions as well as invite them to a day at the range.
Many methods of activism and many paths to freedom. JMO.
We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
His identity remains a mystery to me, just as mine does to him.
Welcome to traditional America, fox.
Ooooh, scary stuff, huh fox?
Perhaps we should have called an agent of the DHS or the BATFE to come and make us fill out paperwork to document the sale and identify who the seller and the buyer were.
Congratulations! You may have bought yourself a stolen gun, one stolen from a gun owner such as yourself, or me. And if it turns out to be stolen, do you tell the police investigating, "Oh, I bought it from some guy I never met before, and don't know his name?"
I have no problem with face-to-face gun trades, but bills of sale can be a good thing to have.
quote:I met an unknown man yesterday in a secluded parking lot. He showed me a gun he had for sale. I looked it over and gave him a wad of fiat federal reserve currency.
We agreed to the sale and we shook hands, as I always do on such firearms deals. He got into his vehicle and left and I did the same.
His identity remains a mystery to me, just as mine does to him.
Welcome to traditional America, fox.
Ooooh, scary stuff, huh fox?
Perhaps we should have called an agent of the DHS or the BATFE to come and make us fill out paperwork to document the sale and identify who the seller and the buyer were.
Congratulations! You may have bought yourself a stolen gun, one stolen from a gun owner such as yourself, or me. And if it turns out to be stolen, do you tell the police investigating, "Oh, I bought it from some guy I never met before, and don't know his name?"
I have no problem with face-to-face gun trades, but bills of sale can be a good thing to have.
They bought firearms.[:(]
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1118950286001/tragedy-on-the-border/?playlist_id=86856
Congratulations! You may have bought yourself a stolen gun, one stolen from a gun owner such as yourself, or me. And if it turns out to be stolen, do you tell the police investigating, "Oh, I bought it from some guy I never met before, and don't know his name?"
I have no problem with face-to-face gun trades, but bills of sale can be a good thing to have.
Locally vendors at gun shows are now asking for proof of residency. This is new over the past year or so. Most do not record anything from the DL, and I'm fine with that. Those that record anything do not get my business.
I understand the CYA reasons, however my purpose in purchasing utility arms at gunshows is to break any paper trail that may exist. Giving the seller tracking information either maintains or creates that paper trail. I do not want to know who the seller is, and I do not want him to know who I am.
I'll submit to the papering for a collector or collectible firearm. There are a host of reasons as to why he purchase or sale of a utility weapon should be anonymous.
Brad Steele
quote:Questions: Does taking license from government,any government, constitute the loss of principles laid out by the 2nd amendment as laid out by our founding fathers.????
Yes, it constitutes a loss of founding principles in that specific instance
Are FFL dealers considered an arm of the federal government?
They are not an 'arm' of the fed-gov. They are acting as 'agents' of the fed-gov as it relates to their FFL activities.
Did the ATF along with FFL dealers get a border agent killed in the fast a furious debacle? Were FFL dealers responsible for many deaths?
The BATFE facilitated getting Agent Terry murdered via their actions. The FFL dealer(s) are not responsible in any manner. The miscreant who pulled the trigger on Agent Terry is responsible as is the rogue anti-constitutional agency who directly facilitated the means to commit the act.
Are you part of the problem?
Since none of us have rucked-up and opened the fandango, we are all part of the problem, including you, I suspect.
I am active in many venues of 2nd amendment actions including petitions, letters, court actions in the past,news articles etc.
So?
Many of us do the same or similar. How's that working out for the Republic?
Question:Question : Does taking a license to own a firearm and to sell firearms constitute the giving up of constitutional rights?
Yes, it does, IMO. Just as consenting to a search of your person, papers, house or effects constitutes a voluntary waiver of certain rights.
The point?
Many of us understand and work in our own ways to educate and influence towards liberty.
Yes or No? Why?
b]Are FFL dealers considered an arm of the federal government?
They are not an 'arm' of the fed-gov. They are acting as 'agents' of the fed-gov as it relates to their FFL activities.[/b]
FFl dealers have contracted(taken license)under the color of law.
By contract they are sold into a binding contract with the Federal government. THEY ARE AN ARM OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse on your part.
2. The BATFE facilitated getting Agent Terry murdered via their actions. The FFL dealer(s) are not responsible in any manner. The miscreant who pulled the trigger on Agent Terry is responsible as is the rogue anti-constitutional agency who directly facilitated the means to commit the act.
The FFL dealers who contracted with the federal government are accomplices of the actionable facts, they were part of the Fast and Furious scheme and even they new and questioned it's lawfulness, and did NOTHING to stop it. They are morally and lawfully responsible to stop the action and DID NOTHING!
When a dealer enters into a contract they are part of the problem.
If you can't see that simple truth then I feel sorry for your lack of understanding.
Of course, you know that if I do, I have to send ALL my bound books and 4473 forms to the BATF, where someone will be entering all that information into a database.
I don't make a lot of money with my license, but I do make some. Are you willing to send me a monthly check to replace my lost income?
Would you have me continue to buy and sell guns without a license, and put myself at risk of federal prosecution?
If I were licensed as a pharmacist, car dealer, plumber or electrician, you wouldn't have such a weed up your backside about it, but because I deal in guns, you have a problem.
I live in the world as it is, not as I wish it to be. Buying and selling guns for profit requires a license, so I have a license. I obey the law. I am also a peace officer and I enforce the law.
If you, through legal political activism, are able to get all the gun control laws repealed, so that no one needs a license to buy and sell, then I won't have one, and I will land on my feet and adapt. In any case, I will not do anything illegal.
Would you buy a used car that way?
Apples and potatoes, nunn.
The quick answer is no.
1. The State is involved in all vehicle transactions, and it is illegal to purchase a vehicle without paying States Sales Tax. This is not yet the case with firearm transfers.
2. To drive a vehicle on public roads, I have to license it anyway. Buying anonymously does nothing in this case.
You have noted in your post above, that all firearms transfers through an FFL are recorded such that the BATFE has access to those records. Buying out of the trunk of some-one's car or anonymously at a show, stops that trail. While I personally do not live in fear of an immediate national registration policy, it is, given recent SCOTUS decisions, a power that has been made available to Local, State and Federal Governments if they wish to take it.
For this reason, having utility arms that cannot be traced to me just makes good sense.
Brad Steele
I understand buying with no paper trail. I have bought guns that way, but I KNOW who I bought from, and have a record of the sale. My own record. No way would I buy from "some guy" out of the trunk of his car with no ID. It is just too easy to unknowingly buy a stolen gun, and I don't make enough money from gun sales to be able to afford very many stolen ones.
When a gun I sold to a customer turned out to have been stolen, it was easy for me to explain to the investigating officers where I got the gun. It was recorded in my bound book. Had it been a "personal" gun, it would have been recorded in my personal record book, and I would have had a bill of sale.
I hope it never happens to any of you, but if you are found to be in possession of a stolen gun, or stolen anything for that matter, I hope you are able to tell the police from whom you got it. To be asked where you got the stolen gun, and to only be able to answer, "From some guy at the flea market (or car wash, or wherever)" can be pretty uncomfortable, and can lead to a charge of receiving stolen property. Not for me, thanks.
BTW, cars are regulated by laws that many here consider un-Constitutional. Why not just buy a car on a handshake, then drive it with no registration, no inspection, and no driver's license? Why not? Because doing so can be expensive and inconvenient. Most of us try to obey the law, not necessarily because we agree with the law, but because doing so has nicer results than not doing so.
I have 4473 forms dating back to 1976. The BATFE has no access to them except on an audit, or if I surrender my license. Last time I was inspected, the BATFE lady looked at maybe a half dozen of the most recent ones, and my most recent bound book, and most of my guns.
I understand buying with no paper trail. I have bought guns that way, but I KNOW who I bought from, and have a record of the sale. My own record. No way would I buy from "some guy" out of the trunk of his car with no ID. It is just too easy to unknowingly buy a stolen gun, and I don't make enough money from gun sales to be able to afford very many stolen ones.
When a gun I sold to a customer turned out to have been stolen, it was easy for me to explain to the investigating officers where I got the gun. It was recorded in my bound book. Had it been a "personal" gun, it would have been recorded in my personal record book, and I would have had a bill of sale.
I hope it never happens to any of you, but if you are found to be in possession of a stolen gun, or stolen anything for that matter, I hope you are able to tell the police from whom you got it. To be asked where you got the stolen gun, and to only be able to answer, "From some guy at the flea market (or car wash, or wherever)" can be pretty uncomfortable, and can lead to a charge of receiving stolen property. Not for me, thanks.
BTW, cars are regulated by laws that many here consider un-Constitutional. Why not just buy a car on a handshake, then drive it with no registration, no inspection, and no driver's license? Why not? Because doing so can be expensive and inconvenient. Most of us try to obey the law, not necessarily because we agree with the law, but because doing so has nicer results than not doing so.
An FFL license is a contract and the government controls the licensee.
H.R. 45 is moving through the House and picking up steam. This multi-faceted bill will attack several things gun-owners hold dear. The bill introduces a registry of firearm purchases, imposes draconian penalties on gun sellers, a 2 day waiting period on all gun sales, a $25 tax on all gun purchases, bans all private gun sales, requires a written exam to prove your proficiency, requires the release of your medical/mental records and other barriers to buying and owning a firearm.
Freedom is lost in small increments. And FFL dealers are taking part of this loss of freedom for the hollow sake of safety ,it's just a matter of time. JMO.
Spend your time on dangers that are more real and urgent please. Just as if you were defending your family in your house from home invaders. Focus on the door or window those invaders are trying to come in. Don't spend a lot of time on the second story windows where there are no intruders yet.
HR 45 to my knowledge is the same as dead. Blair Holt is an ex-black gangbanger from Chicago who was once imprisoned for firearm violations. I think most people in congress know that Holt and the people who elected him are idiots and want nothing to do with him. In addition, Holt's proposed bill was written before the US Supreme Court ruled that gun ownership is actually an individual right. His bill has no co-sponsers which is a sign that the bill will not even be introduced for discussion or for voting.
Spend your time on dangers that are more real and urgent please. Just as if you were defending your family in your house from home invaders. Focus on the door or window those invaders are trying to come in. Don't spend a lot of time on the second story windows where there are no intruders yet.
It's never dead, It never goes away they just change the numbers.
H.R. 45 is currently stalled, but expect the bill's provisions to appear in other forms.
from GOA
Democrats continue plugging for more gun control
News reports have disclosed that many gun stores in the Southwest had suspicions about buyers that were not flagged by the Instant Check. But these gun dealers were told to go ahead and let the sales take place.
So, what did Democrats do in the face of this damning evidence? They wanted to discuss the need for more gun restrictions.
Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA) said Congress needed to pass more gun control because, if one massages the numbers just right (and ignores a whole bunch of others), why, 70% of guns used in Mexican crime supposedly come from the U.S. At least that's what a brand new report from the ATF claims.
But Issa would have none of that, and he kept the committee focused on all the guns the ATF is helping send to Mexico.
ATF has a long history of death and destruction.
Waco was never adequately addressed at the time. Indeed, ATF got a bigger budget the next year. Innocent people such as David Olofson were convicted with perjured testimony. The Bureau has never published a manual detailing how they determine what is, or is not, a machine gun.
We have to thank the agents who had the courage and integrity to blow the whistle on the corruption being fostered by their superiors. But this is only the tip of the iceberg.
The Constitution allows no room for gun control, which is why this agency needs to be done away with and the managers of Fast and Furious (and those who signed off on it in the upper echelons of the Justice Department) need to go to jail.
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
Yes it is sad. But I was one who responded to your email request. There are an estimated 84 million gun owners in America. If even one-half of those gun owners would find someway to link up, work together and focus their energy and political power, the 42 million strong group could run America anyway we wanted to. Heck, even the extremists might finally get their way if they first joined up with a group to focus our power. Once we took that power, then the extremist could start lobbying to do things their way. If enough of the 42 million member group I have described agreed with their way, then without a doubt that is what would happen.
But instead we have lazy gun owners who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights fight. And, worse, some of them not only don't do anything constructive, but instead waste their time and energy arguing and criticizing those gun owners who are at least doing something. Heck, some of the gun rights extremists kinda like the idea behind the Tea Party, but that is nothing more than a group of Americans joining together and focusing their political power. And I guarantee you the many of those Tea Party members do not all have the same, exact idea of what the Tea Party is all about or what or where it should go. But they still know they must find someway to work together or be steamrollered by their opponents.
I wish gun owners could do the same but I long ago gave up hope. I frankly am not sure who is actually doing the heavy lifting in the gun rights fight. It sure is not the majority of gun owners, I know that for sure.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
Yes it is sad. But I was one who responded to your email request. There are an estimated 84 million gun owners in America. If even one-half of those gun owners would find someway to link up, work together and focus their energy and political power, the 42 million strong group could run America anyway we wanted to. Heck, even the extremists might finally get their way if they first joined up with a group to focus our power. Once we took that power, then the extremist could start lobbying to do things their way. If enough of the 42 million member group I have described agreed with their way, then without a doubt that is what would happen.
But instead we have lazy gun owners who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights fight. And, worse, some of them not only don't do anything constructive, but instead waste their time and energy arguing and criticizing those gun owners who are at least doing something. Heck, some of the gun rights extremists kinda like the idea behind the Tea Party, but that is nothing more than a group of Americans joining together and focusing their political power. And I guarantee you the many of those Tea Party members do not all have the same, exact idea of what the Tea Party is all about or what or where it should go. But they still know they must find someway to work together or be steamrollered by their opponents.
I wish gun owners could do the same but I long ago gave up hope. I frankly am not sure who is actually doing the heavy lifting in the gun rights fight. It sure is not the majority of gun owners, I know that for sure.
Thank you for a well stated response,many gun owners are fair weather friends,when asked to act, they cower within their selves afraid of the long arm of government. Let someone else be the scape goat. What they fail to understand is this, when rights are slowly lost to the point of no return it will be too late.
It reminds me of the frog thrown into the hot water he jumped right out. But if placed in a pan of cool water the fire government control)could be turned up slowly and he will sit there and cook unto his death.
I also wonder how effective the gun lobbies are, many of them have become big business and do not always have the gun owners best interest at heart. I was a member of the NRA for years but became very disappointed with their ongoing compromise of our common law rights. I am currently a dues paying member of GOA and SAF, I like SAF
they are active and file the law suits that are making change, GOA does as well to some extent.
Americans have forgotten their heritage, their sovereignty, their ability to control government through the use of the jury box.
I remember years ago, going to classes where Red Beckman taught jury common law and sovereignty i.e. my handle on this site.
I have not given up.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
The number for HR45 has not been changed for well over 1 & 1/2 years.
Sorry, that is not what I meant. If HR 45 is sent to the waste basket another bill will follow in it's place. They (the liberals) never sleep on these issues.[:(].
OK, but what I meant was when you are raising the alarm about specific, potential new gun control laws, (which is great, but few do it) keep your information to actual close by threats. If you sound the alarm about potential new laws that are no threat too often, soon people will not pay much attention to you. Course, sadly, that is what most gun owners have been doing for decades. So you don't want to give then another reason to ignore the constant threats to gun and constitutional rights.
Raising an alarm was not my intent. My intent was to bring issues to the foreground.
Just look at the GOA alert I posted on several sites as well as this site on a couple of links today, how many here actually went to the GOA site and sent the e-mail? 10-15 out of 200 or more,maybe.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=531933
I got better response from my tea party group. Sad very sad . JMO.
Yes it is sad. But I was one who responded to your email request. There are an estimated 84 million gun owners in America. If even one-half of those gun owners would find someway to link up, work together and focus their energy and political power, the 42 million strong group could run America anyway we wanted to. Heck, even the extremists might finally get their way if they first joined up with a group to focus our power. Once we took that power, then the extremist could start lobbying to do things their way. If enough of the 42 million member group I have described agreed with their way, then without a doubt that is what would happen.
But instead we have lazy gun owners who do absolutely nothing to help with the gun rights fight. And, worse, some of them not only don't do anything constructive, but instead waste their time and energy arguing and criticizing those gun owners who are at least doing something. Heck, some of the gun rights extremists kinda like the idea behind the Tea Party, but that is nothing more than a group of Americans joining together and focusing their political power. And I guarantee you the many of those Tea Party members do not all have the same, exact idea of what the Tea Party is all about or what or where it should go. But they still know they must find someway to work together or be steamrollered by their opponents.
I wish gun owners could do the same but I long ago gave up hope. I frankly am not sure who is actually doing the heavy lifting in the gun rights fight. It sure is not the majority of gun owners, I know that for sure.
Thank you for a well stated response,many gun owners are fair weather friends,when asked to act, they cower within their selves afraid of the long arm of government. Let someone else be the scape goat. What they fail to understand is this, when rights are slowly lost to the point of no return it will be too late.
It reminds me of the frog thrown into the hot water he jumped right out. But if placed in a pan of cool water the fire government control)could be turned up slowly and he will sit there and cook unto his death.
I also wonder how effective the gun lobbies are, many of them have become big business and do not always have the gun owners best interest at heart. I was a member of the NRA for years but became very disappointed with their ongoing compromise of our common law rights. I am currently a dues paying member of GOA and SAF, I like SAF
they are active and file the law suits that are making change, GOA does as well to some extent.
Americans have forgotten their heritage, their sovereignty, their ability to control government through the use of the jury box.
I remember years ago, going to classes where Red Beckman taught jury common law and sovereignty i.e. my handle on this site.
I have not given up.
In red above. I and many other people who believe in constitutional rights have enough life experience to know that if you can't achieve victory in one swell swoop, then the only good alternative is to obtain victory in increments. It worked well for the North Vietnamese against the French and then against the USA.
Here is a GB.com link to an article that clearly demonstrates this:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=532066
I agree the NRA is not perfect, but it is the biggest kid on the block. I am also a dues paying member of SAF and GOA. But I can only hope they in time will get as big and powerful as the NRA. Because in the meantime the are little and weak and never seem to go anywhere near the million mark in having members. Many here would laugh at us for being members. They think it is foolish for us to rely on organizations or to "pay" someone to fight for our constitutional rights. I know that part of the fight involves the political side. I also know that the politicians never care much about what a couple of citizens say or think. But when those citizens all speak with one voice as 4 million members, not only the politicians but the news media pays attention. In the meantime I, and others, do what we can as indivuduals.
Many of the extremists here must either be new to being alive in the world or new to the idea of constitutional rights and progress towards getting those rights back. Up until about the 1960, because of lack of effective conservative opposition, the liberals just about owned America. This was especially true in regards to the liberals whittling away at our gun rights. But starting about in the 1970's pro-constitutional and pro-gun rights people and organizations finally realized we had lost way too many rights and started fighting back. And we have come a long way. There didn't even used to even be any organized, strong and effective conservative or pro-gun orginzations and now there are several. Plus, until the early 1990's if you asked for a license to carry a concealed firearm (yeah, yeah, I know a license should not be required but I am talking and living in the real world as it was and is) you probably would have been physically thrown out of the sheriff's office or the police station. Now all states except Ill have some form of concealed carry and it can only get better from here.
I myself, having seen it all happen, call that progress. Course that will never, ever make the extremists here happy.