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Time to Close Down the ATF
sovereignman
Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) beamed a spotlight on the criminal behavior of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, commonly referred to as the ATF. At Wednesday's hearing, Issa took on Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich by asking him: "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid it got people killed."
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
Comments
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
Indoctrination, aint it grand.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[xx(]
June 20, 2011
GOA Alert
Gun Owners of America
Oppose the Cover-up Protection Act
-- Vote could come as early as Tuesday
As we reported to you on Friday, House Republicans got a royal "drop dead" from Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich when he testified before Rep. Darrell Issa's committee last week.
Weich had earlier written Congress to deny wrongdoing by ATF in connection with allegations that it was intentionally allowing firearms to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. This Justice Department denial by Weich turned out to be false.
Weich had also refused to respond to repeated congressional demands for documents, and documents which he did provide were frequently nothing more than jet-black pieces of paper.
At the committee hearing, Weich told Chairman Darrell Issa and the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform that he would continue to withhold documents from Congress.
He also refused to answer questions from committee members such as Utah's Jason Chaffetz and South Carolina's Trey Gowdy.
And, incidentally, Weich refused to provide any information to Iowa Republican Chuck Grassley, on the sole excuse that Grassley was a mere "Republican." If Republicans wanted to exercise their constitutional oversight functions, intoned Weich, they would have to go begging to liberal anti-gun Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Pat Leahy.
So imagine our surprise that the Senate is poised to take up S. 679 -- "bipartisan" legislation which would exempt Weich, his successors, and 203 other similarly situated federal officials from Senate confirmation.
One would think it's important that federal officials who are responsible for telling Congressmen what documents they can or can't review should be first approved with the "advice and consent" of the Senate.
But for Republican Senator Sue Collins, it's apparently no big deal. After all, she is a sponsor of S. 679, the legislation to exempt hundreds of officials from Senate scrutiny.
Gun owners who have watched Weich cover up ATF's anti-gun policies -- policies which have intentionally flooded Mexican gun cartels with guns and resulted in the murder of federal law enforcement officers -- realize why it is important that the Senate should be able to block liars like Weich.
One strategy note: We do not expect to defeat the Cover-up Protection Act in the Senate where, sadly, Republican leader Mitch McConnell is a cosponsor. But if we do "respectably" well -- say, we get 20 votes or so against the bill -- it will give us the strength we need to ask that the bill be killed in the House.
The Senate could vote on this bill as soon as Tuesday.
ACTION: Click here to contact your two U.S. Senators. Demand that they oppose cloture on the Cover-up Protection Act.
Not just the jack boots destroying the republic, plenty of scumbag politicians covering up for them,and assisting in the destruction.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) beamed a spotlight on the criminal behavior of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, commonly referred to as the ATF. At Wednesday's hearing, Issa took on Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich by asking him: "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid it got people killed."
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
If it's going to get done it's up to the gun owners of america to do it.
Thats you!
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
Indoctrination, aint it grand.
Agree first indoctrination, then brain washing, then slavery, JMO.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
ATF does have a use,
What might that be?
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use,
What might that be?
+1
[?]
quote:Originally posted by Horse Plains Drifter
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use,
What might that be?
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
I have noted just the opposite. Most GO's give lip service to the BATFE but do NOT support the BS they enforce.
We do need to try and defund them through the legislature. The environment is ripe to get some the 'extremism' in the guberment defunded. [}:)]
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
I have noted just the opposite. Most GO's give lip service to the BATFE but do NOT support the BS they enforce.
We do need to try and defund them through the legislature. The environment is ripe to get some the 'extremism' in the guberment defunded. [}:)]
I agree!
Its time to trim the most fruitful limbs off the idiot tree.
I'm sure they can get a job at the post office.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
We all need to pressure congress to shut the ATF down...But I fear most gun owners don't give a *^&$$# jmo.
Most gun owners support the ATF in its efforts to keep the wrong people from owning firearms, sovereignman. No, they do not come out a specifically state it, but it should be obvious that their support of a Federal NCIS implies the need for enforcement, and thus the need for an agency to do just that.
It "always" should be in the hands of the State in which the residents reside.Not in the federal buzzard'* hands. Thank God for Vermont and others,more to come as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_carry
Let me just go on and say this ...
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
The BATF is Unconstitutional! States rights take precedent.
dont believe it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_carry
I any of you on this site live in a State considering legislation please become activists . It's that important!
Just a little something to think about, and my two cents...
The biggest problem with abolishing the ATF is that the role of enforcer would fall to the FBI who wiould even more hostile, not to mention more secretive in the governments efforts to bring the nations gun owners to heel like a bad puppy. Sometimes the devil you know isn't as bad as the devil you don't. Do we want them shamed and diminished, yet visible with the populace watching their every move from here on, or give it over to the FBI where we won't know what they are up to in their war against the constitution?
Just a little something to think about, and my two cents...
point Taken. If the BATF is shut down it will save taxpayers millions of dollars and "if" the FBI took over the American People could put them on the watch list. A double win for liberty. JMO
Let me just go on and say this ...
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
http://www.infowars.com/batf-admits-guns-walked-under-fast-furious/
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) beamed a spotlight on the criminal behavior of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, commonly referred to as the ATF. At Wednesday's hearing, Issa took on Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich by asking him: "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid it got people killed."
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
NRA and others are getting involved in the illegal actions of the batf.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1095760427001/fierce-battle-over-gun-rights/?playlist_id=87937&intcmp=obinsite
The ATF only purpose in life is the control and confiscation of privately owned weapons. They write gun policies so contradictory and confusing that they don't even understand their own regulations. Which is usefull. It's a win win for them. The average citizen doesn't have the money to fight them long term for a wrongfull prosecution. So they are forced to give up. The ATF wins another one and another batch of guns gets melted. Or an anti-gun judge sides with them and the outcome is the same. Anreed in both cases they only have to present a possibility of a violation. They case of the accidental burst malfunction at the range. They could not re-produce the malfunction without modifying the ammunition. But they used that as a basis to procecute and win against an innocent man. The ATF attitude is that gun rights are what THEY say they are. And of course, their basic policy is that there is no right to own a gun.
Agree. The Congress make the monster and then can't control the beast or don't want to. Time to continue the revolution we started
over 2 years ago.
http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/07/13/will-the-real-tea-party-revolutionaries-please-stand-up/
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/08/09/nra-ila-legal-update-august-2011/
Words on ATF fast and furious.
We condemn the president, do we want to abolish the presidency?
Sovereignman,, They did the same thing with the EPA and thier many clones. One of the MOST Anti-Business departments ever created.
The Atf, needs to be reformed, not abolished. Most of the atf employees are no different tnan you and I. I have a neighbor who works as an agent. Why do we condemn the whole, when its the leadership that needs replacing?
We condemn the president, do we want to abolish the presidency?
I do not agree . We do not need the likes of the ATF IRS HomeLand Security etc it is a slippery slope that will eventually break the backs of those who bow to the unconstitutional authority. Congress makes unlawful decisions and we suffer from the lack of oversight.
We have been voting left right for years now , What has it gotten us?
I suggest it's time to rethink and make changes.
The Atf, needs to be reformed, not abolished. Most of the atf employees are no different tnan you and I. I have a neighbor who works as an agent. Why do we condemn the whole, when its the leadership that needs replacing?
We condemn the president, do we want to abolish the presidency?
It isn't about the people employed, it is about the fact that a federal gun police force, enforcing federal 'gun laws' is blatantly unconstitutional.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', except that government at all levels routinely infringes upon that which they are prohibited from infringing upon and the fed-gov has created a federal police force with the mission to enforce laws that spin off that unconstitutional infringement along with creating and enforcing a plethora of unconstitutional regulations expressly designed to infringe upon the uninfringeable.
Kafkaesque.
The Atf, needs to be reformed, not abolished. Most of the atf employees are no different tnan you and I. I have a neighbor who works as an agent. Why do we condemn the whole, when its the leadership that needs replacing?
We condemn the president, do we want to abolish the presidency?
You got me twice, J1357, but not again.[:I]
I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt a few times, but this post makes it obvious that you are yanking our chains.
Well played, sir.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by 45long
Yeah. J. I wouldn't trust him with anything gun related.
Sovereignman,, They did the same thing with the EPA and thier many clones. One of the MOST Anti-Business departments ever created.
Yes, alphabet soup compartments that are out of control, and the despots are making their own laws (rules) oppressive government from any source is despotic. Some here are attached to the idea of big brother to fix all their ills, but it's just political laziness in my opinion. Did any one see that the officials and ATF heads from the fast and furious setup were given a higher position in the government administration by Obama. That's right get a fellow citizen killed AND MOVE ON UP!
This week, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) beamed a spotlight on the criminal behavior of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, commonly referred to as the ATF. At Wednesday's hearing, Issa took on Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich by asking him: "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid it got people killed."
http://gunowners.org/a06172011.htm
http://www.offensivestuff.com/wordpress/?p=1548
Update: U.S. Senate
Senator Blasts ATF's Reported Promotion of Supervisors in Ill-Fated Gun Operation
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/16/senator-blasts-atfs-reported-promotion-supervisors-in-ill-fated-gun-operation/#ixzz1VFW5rOZp
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/16/senator-blasts-atfs-reported-promotion-supervisors-in-ill-fated-gun-operation/
Rep. Issa: Holder 'Absolutely' Knew About Fast & Furious Earlier Than He Testified
Obama launched fast and furious.
Time to write and call your congressperson....
Let me just go on and say this ...
There is NO useful purpose for the BATFE in our society. Gun laws are unConstitutional and are without merit, unless you're one who leans and accepts a nation based upon socialism and totalitarianism. Our Founding Fathers wrote our nation's documents and those documents are the reasons ATF should NOT EXIST.
Enfringing upon the Rights of the American citizen has been the ATF's goal from its conception and they continue to chip away at our freedoms while going basically unchecked.
Disbanning and disarming the BATFE is the ONLY ANSWER.
quote:Originally posted by ninefingers
ATF does have a use, but needs serious reality check. Anti-gunners have NO place as its chief. They need do there job objectively.
No agency has right of making, interrpreting, And enforcing rules. Not all three. That's why we have congreess, supreme court, And a president, not lumped together into some monarchy.
They redefined "flash powder" and "black powder" as:" H.E"--any chemist can tell you they are wrong. They have no business redefining chemistry and then enforcing it. They are only on the enforcing end, and do a poor job of that. Really should be left for more experiemnced, like federal marshals or FBI.
I met a dealer at a gun show, who had his customer fill out Federal transfer form to best of his abilities. Customer was ok'd. A Month later, ATF reneged, called the dealer and said:"What was his address, again?"[xx(] Their slip-up is Not the dealer's fault; it now makes Him look "bad" and possibly let a prohibited possessor get away. It also hurt his sales, and make him "gun-shy" (no pun!) of anyone who even Seemed "suspicious", after that snafu. He was ready to go over to the ATF booth at the gun show and chew them out with me.
latest Video of fast and furious
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1118950286001/tragedy-on-the-border/?playlist_id=86856
The Big Eared Leader, just like Slick Willie & that brilliant Dubya, staffed the top positions at every federal agency with folks who were willing to enforce their philosophy. In the case of all 3 presidents, they picked anti-gun toadies at ATFE. So, it should be no surprise at what has happened. The problem isn't ATFE, most of whose employees are honest & conscientious; the problem is the presidents we have elected!
Issa is frustrated because there is little that he can do. The only ways to bring ATFE to heel are 1) Congress passing new laws, & 2) riders attached to the DOJ appropriation bills. With the Dems controlling the Senate & all important Congressional committee chairmanships, there is little that can be done, other than hope that Fox News continues to inform the public.
The BEL & DOJ leadership have told Issa to perform a Dick Chaney, & there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.
Neal
You have to understand how federal agencies work.
The Big Eared Leader, just like Slick Willie & that brilliant Dubya, staffed the top positions at every federal agency with folks who were willing to enforce their philosophy. In the case of all 3 presidents, they picked anti-gun toadies at ATFE. So, it should be no surprise at what has happened. The problem isn't ATFE, most of whose employees are honest & conscientious; the problem is the presidents we have elected!
Issa is frustrated because there is little that he can do. The only ways to bring ATFE to heel are 1) Congress passing new laws, & 2) riders attached to the DOJ appropriation bills. With the Dems controlling the Senate & all important Congressional committee chairmanships, there is little that can be done, other than hope that Fox News continues to inform the public.
The BEL & DOJ leadership have told Issa to perform a Dick Chaney, & there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.
Neal
t isn't about the people employed, it is about the fact that a federal gun-police force, enforcing federal 'gun laws' is blatantly unconstitutional.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', except that government at all levels routinely infringes upon that which they are prohibited from infringing upon and the fed-gov has created a federal police force with the mission to enforce laws that spin off that unconstitutional infringement along with creating and enforcing a plethora of unconstitutional regulations expressly designed to infringe upon the uninfringeable.
Kafkaesque.
You have to understand how federal agencies work.
The Big Eared Leader, just like Slick Willie & that brilliant Dubya, staffed the top positions at every federal agency with folks who were willing to enforce their philosophy. In the case of all 3 presidents, they picked anti-gun toadies at ATFE. So, it should be no surprise at what has happened. The problem isn't ATFE, most of whose employees are honest & conscientious; the problem is the presidents we have elected!
Issa is frustrated because there is little that he can do. The only ways to bring ATFE to heel are 1) Congress passing new laws, & 2) riders attached to the DOJ appropriation bills. With the Dems controlling the Senate & all important Congressional committee chairmanships, there is little that can be done, other than hope that Fox News continues to inform the public.
The BEL & DOJ leadership have told Issa to perform a Dick Chaney, & there isn't a darn thing he can do about it.
Neal
After James Madison's Bill of Rights was submitted to Congress, Tench Coxe (see also: Tench Coxe and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, 1787-1823) published his "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 He asserts that it's the people (as individuals) with arms, who serve as the ultimate check on government:
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms".
Hamilton :
Quote: "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair".
and finally
"The opinion of the Federalist papers has always been considered as of great authority. It is a complete commentary on our Constitution, and is appealed to by all parties in the questions to which that instrument has given birth. . . . "
--- The U.S. Supreme Court in Cohens v. Virginia (1821)
"Collective rights theorists argue that addition of the subordinate clause qualifies the rest of the amendment by placing a limitation on the people's right to bear arms. However, if the amendment truly meant what collective rights advocates propose, then the text would read "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the States to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." However, that is not what the framers of the amendment drafted. The plain language of the amendment, without attenuate inferences therefrom, shows that the function of the subordinate clause was not to qualify the right, but instead to show why it must be protected. The right exists independent of the existence of the militia. If this right were not protected, the existence of the militia, and consequently the security of the state, would be jeopardized." (U.S. v. Emerson, 46 F.Supp.2d 598 (N.D.Tex. 1999))
There are 3 ways the Second Amendment is usually interpreted to deny it was intended to protect an individual right to keep and bear arms:
It protects a state's right to keep and bear arms.
The right is individual, but limited to active militia members because the militia clause narrows the right's scope.
The term "people" refers to the people collectively, rather than the people as individuals.
Yet, three jurists, who were contemporaries of the Founders, and wrote constitutional commentaries, read the Second Amendment as protecting a private, individual right to keep arms. There is no contrary evidence from that period
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Time to Close Down the ATF
WAY past time.
I will second that. But if we can't get them 'shut down' out right we need to pressure the congress to defund them and the other out of control beaurcracies.[V]