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quote:I suggest you get off your * and try to understand what your duty to your oath means before its too late.
Just when will that be? How will I know when it is too late?
A privilege is granted by an entity in authority; a right is intrinsic.
The founders believed that rights came from the Creator. I see no reason to disagree with them. I have to wonder about atheists though. No Creator = no rights.
Can government grant rights? Seems like that was answered above. If government grants it, it is a privilege.
The notion of sovereignty, I thought applied to kings and countries that have kings. I never heard the term applied to anyone in the USA until your friends started appearing on the news and in police intelligence bulletins.
The 2nd Amendment is a right defined. The right was there; the Constitution just reaffirmed it.
We are known by the company we keep, and I choose not to associate with murderers, except to put them in jail.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:I suggest you get off your * and try to understand what your duty to your oath means before its too late.
Just when will that be? How will I know when it is too late?
A privilege is granted by an entity in authority; a right is intrinsic.
The founders believed that rights came from the Creator. I see no reason to disagree with them. I have to wonder about atheists though. No Creator = no rights.
Can government grant rights? Seems like that was answered above. If government grants it, it is a privilege.
The notion of sovereignty, I thought applied to kings and countries that have kings. I never heard the term applied to anyone in the USA until your friends started appearing on the news and in police intelligence bulletins.
The 2nd Amendment is a right defined. The right was there; the Constitution just reaffirmed it.
We are known by the company we keep, and I choose not to associate with murderers, except to put them in jail.
As far as sovereignty:
I suggest you take a course of study and become knowledgeable on the difference between the power of Kings before the revolutionary war and the power of the people after the war. Look up allodial title of land.After the Declaration of Independence (1776), the American Revolution, and the Treaty of Peace with Great Britain (1783), the American people became complete, sovereign freeholders in the land with the same prerogative as the King. The King had no further claim to the land and could not tax or otherwise encumber it.
What does it mean to be a Sovereign Citizen?
The word "sovereign" is defined in the 6th edition of Black's Law Dictionary, published in 1990, as being, "A person, body, or state in which independent authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler in a monarchy." Prior to the War for American Independence, the British king was the sovereign and the American people were his subjects. The war's outcome changed all this:
The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people - and he who before was a "subject of the king" is now "a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, North Carolina, Vol. 20, Page 121 (1838)
Thus, the people became Citizens of their respective states. But more importantly, for the first and only time in recorded history, the people were recognized as being the true sovereigns:
It will be sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance... No such ideas obtain here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to govern but themselves...
Chisholm v. Georgia, Dallas' Supreme Court Reports, Vol. 2, Pages
Before the war the king was sovereign in this country after the war the people became sovereign. It was the "people" that granted government 'Limited"powers ,NOT the other way around. Today you cops think you have the power but you are still servants and many times your kind forget this.You are still bound by the common laws of this land and the Constitution. Statute law must be in line and agree with common law or it is "No law".
I'm done with this discussion with you,educate yourself.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I have seen what "Sovereign Citizens" are capable of. If you are of that stripe, then I have no use for you, either.
A high-sounding title doesn't make a criminal not a criminal.
By the same token,I have no use for a government employee that blindly follows orders and is ignorant of the history of the formation of this nation and its laws.
Don't let a few misguided so called sovereign citizens be the foundation of your thinking, if in fact they were misguided.
My feeling is that your blinders have been in place too long.
The people and their respective states are sovereign, they formed a trust with and by the united sovereign states that gave limited power
contained in the Constitution and amendments to a federal bureaucracy
that was allowed to serve the united states and the people which were sovereign, this "trust" was conditional on the fact that they "OBEY THEIR OATH" anything less is treason.
You can continue in your myopic realm and I will continue to teach and preach true individual freedom granted by allodial title and right,granted by common law,God's law, and natures law.
There are 10's if not 100's of thousands waking up to the truth of oppressive,repressive government.
You go your way and I'll go mine. i won't post to you and I prefer you don't post to me. You have made your choices in life, we will agree to disagree. where is the ignore button.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I have seen what "Sovereign Citizens" are capable of. If you are of that stripe, then I have no use for you, either.
A high-sounding title doesn't make a criminal not a criminal.
By the same token,I have no use for a government employee that blindly follows orders and is ignorant of the history of the formation of this nation and its laws.
Don't let a few misguided so called sovereign citizens be the foundation of your thinking, if in fact they were misguided.
My feeling is that your blinders have been in place too long.
The people and their respective states are sovereign, they formed a trust with and by the united sovereign states that gave limited power
contained in the Constitution and amendments to a federal bureaucracy
that was allowed to serve the united states and the people which were sovereign, this "trust" was conditional on the fact that they "OBEY THEIR OATH" anything less is treason.
You can continue in your myopic realm and I will continue to teach and preach true individual freedom granted by allodial title and right,granted by common law,God's law, and natures law.
There are 10's if not 100's of thousands waking up to the truth of oppressive,repressive government.
You go your way and I'll go mine. i won't post to you and I prefer you don't post to me. You have made your choices in life, we will agree to disagree. where is the ignore button.
Please allow me to jump in here. As I have already said, you seem like a sincere person so you will never get any snarly posts from me. Although I believe you are a little confused.
In red above. Many of our modern laws, the ones you apparently don't support, were inspired by common law. Regarding God's law, God's law is supreme in extremist Muslim countries. There they call God Allah and Allah's law is shariah law. I doubt you would like living there. When America was founded, the founders meant for citizens to be able to have justice and a civilized society without having to think God makes our laws. He does not.
In regard to nature's laws, we all had that one time. It called living in the jungle and I do not want to go back to that. Although, in your defense there is one of "nature's laws" I support. The natural law of an innocent creature to use any means available to defend from unpovoked attack.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Originally posted by nunn
Sovereign Citizens and Posse Comitatus. Interesting.
By the way, I work for a municipality, not a sheriff, so am I a JBT?
I assume you took a "OATH" to the Constitution,you are required to
obey your oath first and foremost or it means nothing.
And if statute law conflicts with Constitutional and common law your duty lies to uphold Constitutional law first and foremost.
Either you are a peace officer first or you are a statute enforcer and tax collector. It would depend on your understanding the responsibilities of your oath of office and your obedience to same.
[^]Exactly! But very few LEO's will do the right thing and actually study the statues and determine which are violations of the Constitution, and fewer yet will stand up against the 'establishment' and refuse to enforce these 'laws'. Many will individually 'warn' people rather than arrest them, but this is a cop out by them.[V]
LEO's are citizens FIRST and cops second. And another cop out is those who say it is not their job to interpret the laws, that is the courts job. NOTHING could be further from the truth!!!!
As Jeff pointed out we as LEO's are the 'spear head' and as such we have an obligation to do the right thing when it comes to enforcing the 'law'.
You are correct, this is where we the educated sovereign citizens step up to the plate and accepts his or her responsibility and becomes a teacher as well as a citizen in good standing.
A citizen armed with the Constitution and knowledge has taken a good first step, but only a first step, a course study is needed to know how to handle a law enforcement officer that is ignorant willfully or otherwise.
If we, meaning the citizens of this country do not become educated
with the facts and the determination to dig out of the pit and mire of unconstitutional legalize we will continue as nothing more than sheep.
For instance did you know that legally you do not own your vehicle?
When a person purchases and pay's in full did they get the manufactures statement of origin or what is called the MSO?
No, they get what is called a "certificate of title" not the actual title, they are co-owners with the state in which they reside. To understand it better and the way I was taught to me by a constitutional law scholar,is this;
If I give a person a gift "certificate" does that person have the gift or a piece of paper that represents the gift or item?
Most people do not understand the law, they get a certificate of title not the actual MSO ,the state holds it on mocrofish, this way the state can charge rent on the vehicle, which is paid at certain intervals. Does anyone here know the difference between actual title MSO, and a certificate?????? look into it and become powerful, retain your rights, for rights not used are lost, they become privilages such as the FFL dealers on this site that are agents for our BATF and FBI. People have a lot to learn. JMO.
[/quote
The "Sovereign citizen" group are nothing more than criminals, plain and simple. They have no constitutional legitimacy in what they do, nor does the Obama progressives. The rank and file of both are sheepeople. The leaders of this movement are motivated by power and greed just like the current administration and they count on their 'followers', who are motivated but misinformed, to carry the height and do the dirty work.
This is a fact to those of us who are realists and do our home work and study HISTORY!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
Originally posted by nunn
Sovereign Citizens and Posse Comitatus. Interesting.
By the way, I work for a municipality, not a sheriff, so am I a JBT?
I assume you took a "OATH" to the Constitution,you are required to
obey your oath first and foremost or it means nothing.
And if statute law conflicts with Constitutional and common law your duty lies to uphold Constitutional law first and foremost.
Either you are a peace officer first or you are a statute enforcer and tax collector. It would depend on your understanding the responsibilities of your oath of office and your obedience to same.
[^]Exactly! But very few LEO's will do the right thing and actually study the statues and determine which are violations of the Constitution, and fewer yet will stand up against the 'establishment' and refuse to enforce these 'laws'. Many will individually 'warn' people rather than arrest them, but this is a cop out by them.[V]
LEO's are citizens FIRST and cops second. And another cop out is those who say it is not their job to interpret the laws, that is the courts job. NOTHING could be further from the truth!!!!
As Jeff pointed out we as LEO's are the 'spear head' and as such we have an obligation to do the right thing when it comes to enforcing the 'law'.
You are correct, this is where we the educated sovereign citizens step up to the plate and accepts his or her responsibility and becomes a teacher as well as a citizen in good standing.
A citizen armed with the Constitution and knowledge has taken a good first step, but only a first step, a course study is needed to know how to handle a law enforcement officer that is ignorant willfully or otherwise.
If we, meaning the citizens of this country do not become educated
with the facts and the determination to dig out of the pit and mire of unconstitutional legalize we will continue as nothing more than sheep.
For instance did you know that legally you do not own your vehicle?
When a person purchases and pay's in full did they get the manufactures statement of origin or what is called the MSO?
No, they get what is called a "certificate of title" not the actual title, they are co-owners with the state in which they reside. To understand it better and the way I was taught to me by a constitutional law scholar,is this;
If I give a person a gift "certificate" does that person have the gift or a piece of paper that represents the gift or item?
Most people do not understand the law, they get a certificate of title not the actual MSO ,the state holds it on mocrofish, this way the state can charge rent on the vehicle, which is paid at certain intervals. Does anyone here know the difference between actual title MSO, and a certificate?????? look into it and become powerful, retain your rights, for rights not used are lost, they become privilages such as the FFL dealers on this site that are agents for our BATF and FBI. People have a lot to learn. JMO.
[/quote
The "Sovereign citizen" group are nothing more than criminals, plain and simple. They have no constitutional legitimacy in what they do, nor does the Obama progressives. The rank and file of both are sheepeople. The leaders of this movement are motivated by power and greed just like the current administration and they count on their 'followers', who are motivated but misinformed, to carry the height and do the dirty work.
This is a fact to those of us who are realists and do our home work and study HISTORY!!!!
FFL dealers are nothing but criminals sucking on the hind tet of government. They take license and privilege, they are leeches on the ball sac of government and their fellow man,They are disobeying the constitution of the United sovereign states.
You need a history lesson you are ignorant.
A jurist contemporaneous to the Founders, William Rawle, authored
"A View of the Constitution of the United States of America" (1829).
His work was adopted as a constitutional law textbook at West Point and other institutions. In Chapter 10 he describes the scope of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms:
The prohibition is general. No clause in the constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both.
This is another quote where it is obvious that "the people" refers to individuals since Rawle writes neither the states nor the national government has legitimate authority to disarm its citizens. This passage also makes it clear ("the prohibition is general") that the militia clause was not intended to restrict the scope of the right.
(In 1791 William Rawle was appointed United States Attorney for Pennsylvania by President George Washington, a post he held for more than eight years.)
Last but by no means least for government agents such as yourself
After James Madison's Bill of Rights was submitted to Congress, Tench Coxe ( published his "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
He asserts that it's the people (as individuals) with arms, who serve as the ultimate check on government:without restriction.
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms".
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Give a feller enough rope...
True colors are being displayed, slowly but surely...
Thanks!
It won't do any good to give you the cites but others may benefit here.
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." - Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486, 489.
Hertado v. California, 110 U.S. 516 states very plainly: "The State cannot diminish rights of the people."
"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of Constitutional rights."- Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F. 945.
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;" - ART. 6, U.S. CONST.
We know that Police officers, are a part of the Executive branch.
You are a licensee of a run away out of control government.
What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back.
This brings us to the question, "What are we getting back?" What does it mean to be a Sovereign Citizen?
The word "sovereign" is defined in the 6th edition of Black's Law Dictionary, published in 1990, as being, "A person, body, or state in which independent authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler in a monarchy." Prior to the War for American Independence, the British king was the sovereign and the American people were his subjects. The war's outcome changed all this:
The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people - and he who before was a "subject of the king" is now "a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, North Carolina, Vol. 20, Page 121 (1838)
Thus, the people became Citizens of their respective states. But more importantly, for the first and only time in recorded history, the people were recognized as being the true sovereigns:
It will be sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance... No such ideas obtain here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to govern but themselves...
Chisholm v. Georgia, Dallas' Supreme Court Reports, Vol. 2, Pages
471, 472 (1793)
Each individual, at least so far as respects his unalienable rights is his own sovereign. These rights weren't given to any government. In fact, they can't be. Perhaps you can give up all of your rights, if you so choose, but who has the power to give your rights up for you? In America, no one can, because we're all equal. In American this principle of popular sovereign is recognized by all governments - state and federal. When the states became independent, the state governments were formed, all of them based on the authority of the people, and not the will of one man or a small body of men. The federal government as we know it today was created in 1789 when the federal constitution went into effect. The constitution mentioned something previously unknown in American law: Citizenship of the United States:
The term, citizens of the United States, must be understood to intend those who were citizens of a state, as such, after the Union had commenced, and the several states had assumed their sovereignties. Before this period there was no citizen of the United States...
Manchester v. Boston, Massachusetts Reports, Vol. 16, Page 235
(1819)
Thus a Citizen of a state is, by the federal constitution, made a Citizen of the United States. This means the following:
A citizen of one state is to be considered as a citizen of every other state in the union.
Butler v. Farnsworth, Federal Cases, Vol. 4, Page 902 (1821)
A Citizen of any one of the states is considered and treated as being a Citizen of all of them. The phrase "Citizen of the United States" does not refer to a separate class of citizenship:
A citizen of any one of the States of the Union, is held to be, and called a citizen of the United States, although technically and abstractly there is no such thing. To conceive a citizen of the United States who is not a citizen of some one of the States, is totally foreign to the idea, and inconsistent with the proper construction and common understanding of the expression as used in the Constitution, which must be deduced from its various other provisions.
Ex parte. - Frank Knowles, California Reports, Vol. 5, Page 302 (1855)
Because of the principles enunciated in the above cases and others like them, it's correct to say that the American people are Citizens of our respective states. But we're more than this. We're in a very real sense Citizens of all the states. We are, in the greatest sense, and proudly so,Citizens of the several United States.
This brings us to what are considered as being the rights inherent in Citizenship in America:
When men entered into a State they yielded a part of their absolute rights, or natural liberty, for political or civil liberty, which is no other than natural liberty restrained by human laws, so far as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public. The rights of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, - and, in general, of attaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury to another, are the rights of a citizen; and all men by nature have them.
These are the rights inherent in Sovereign Citizenship. So long as we remained Citizens, they couldn't be taken away from us. So the key was to take our Citizenship away from us.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
ARTICLE #1: What is Sovereign Citizenship?
by Scott Eric Rosenstiel
What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back.
This brings us to the question, "What are we getting back?" What does it mean to be a Sovereign Citizen?
The word "sovereign" is defined in the 6th edition of Black's Law Dictionary, published in 1990, as being, "A person, body, or state in which independent authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler in a monarchy." Prior to the War for American Independence, the British king was the sovereign and the American people were his subjects. The war's outcome changed all this:
The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people - and he who before was a "subject of the king" is now "a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, North Carolina, Vol. 20, Page 121 (1838)
Thus, the people became Citizens of their respective states. But more importantly, for the first and only time in recorded history, the people were recognized as being the true sovereigns:
It will be sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance... No such ideas obtain here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to govern but themselves...
Chisholm v. Georgia, Dallas' Supreme Court Reports, Vol. 2, Pages
471, 472 (1793)
Each individual, at least so far as respects his unalienable rights is his own sovereign. These rights weren't given to any government. In fact, they can't be. Perhaps you can give up all of your rights, if you so choose, but who has the power to give your rights up for you? In America, no one can, because we're all equal. In American this principle of popular sovereign is recognized by all governments - state and federal. When the states became independent, the state governments were formed, all of them based on the authority of the people, and not the will of one man or a small body of men. The federal government as we know it today was created in 1789 when the federal constitution went into effect. The constitution mentioned something previously unknown in American law: Citizenship of the United States:
The term, citizens of the United States, must be understood to intend those who were citizens of a state, as such, after the Union had commenced, and the several states had assumed their sovereignties. Before this period there was no citizen of the United States...
Manchester v. Boston, Massachusetts Reports, Vol. 16, Page 235
(1819)
Thus a Citizen of a state is, by the federal constitution, made a Citizen of the United States. This means the following:
A citizen of one state is to be considered as a citizen of every other state in the union.
Butler v. Farnsworth, Federal Cases, Vol. 4, Page 902 (1821)
A Citizen of any one of the states is considered and treated as being a Citizen of all of them. The phrase "Citizen of the United States" does not refer to a separate class of citizenship:
A citizen of any one of the States of the Union, is held to be, and called a citizen of the United States, although technically and abstractly there is no such thing. To conceive a citizen of the United States who is not a citizen of some one of the States, is totally foreign to the idea, and inconsistent with the proper construction and common understanding of the expression as used in the Constitution, which must be deduced from its various other provisions.
Ex parte. - Frank Knowles, California Reports, Vol. 5, Page 302 (1855)
Because of the principles enunciated in the above cases and others like them, it's correct to say that the American people are Citizens of our respective states. But we're more than this. We're in a very real sense Citizens of all the states. We are, in the greatest sense, and proudly so,Citizens of the several United States.
This brings us to what are considered as being the rights inherent in Citizenship in America:
When men entered into a State they yielded a part of their absolute rights, or natural liberty, for political or civil liberty, which is no other than natural liberty restrained by human laws, so far as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public. The rights of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, - and, in general, of attaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury to another, are the rights of a citizen; and all men by nature have them.
These are the rights inherent in Sovereign Citizenship. So long as we remained Citizens, they couldn't be taken away from us. So the key was to take our Citizenship away from us.
Excellent Article for a beginning understanding.
What is or was done to citizenship?
Constitutional Topic: Citizenship
The Fourteenth Amendment and a "natural born citizen"
A common misunderstanding of "natural born" citizenship comes from the Fourteenth Amendment, but a strict reading of the fourteenth amendment is quite clear that this only conveys an at birth naturalized citizenship. Those born in the United States at the time of adoption and afterwards were only citizens. Those who wrote the amendment knew exactly what they were doing. Because of the distinctive use of "natural born citizen" and "citizen," in Article II, Section 1 the simple fact that being born in the United States does not make one a "natural born citizen," it only makes one "a citizen."
The Fourteenth amendment states in Section 1,
Section 1 - "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Obviously missing is the conveyance of "natural born" status to these citizens. In fact what is obviously included in the text is the term "naturalized." This section has several clauses, the first deals with citizenship.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Lettuce prey...
Your ignorance is slightly showing!
Been There? Done that? I doubt it, you are likely a government grunt, paid and owned IMO.
Been there, done that.
Alloidal titles, land patents, 14th amendment citizens, voluntary taxes, blah blah blah blah blah de freaking dah. Been around for forty years, and more.
You hold tight to that stuff, and see what you will have left in your hands.
Some folks are just in a real darn hurry to lead and see others sacrifice themselves to water the tree of liberty.
I'll tell you what....show me one man with a demonstrated good grounding in scripture and the orthodox church, that runs in that pack.
And then you might have a point.
Otherwise it is just mouthing the arcane conspiracy rants of jail house lawyers and assorted do-nothings, when it gets right down to it.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
"Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live ? Oh, How can ye live,
How can ye live ?
.
Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live,
When there are good men dying, every day ?" Traditional
The question of sovereignty is about who holds ultimate power and who is in charge of national decision-making? The dictionary is clear and unambiguous when it comes to the definition of the word
"SOVEREIGNTY". It is the supreme authority, with an absolute power to command obedience.Our nation was born a sovereign nation with sovereign states and citizens.At first, the power seems to be on the
side of Authority but this power is conditional to the good will of Obedience. If Obedience refuses to submit, Authority has no power.
Obedience is the one who holds the real power.
She can choose to use or give up this power.
Authority perpetually lives in the fear of loosing her false power,that is why it uses different strategies in order to persuade obedience to give up her real power.
Authority buys the good will of obedience with rewards,such as FFL licensing or other gifts of predisposed power such as a concealed carry permit, a permit is NOT a right, it is a reward for obedience also consider the celebrated P-A-P carrots - Power, Money, Prestige. She even promises an upcoming and supreme carrot - a place in heaven after death. The reward system works very well and guarantees the obedience of the great majority of the population.
Absolute power is required in order for sovereignty to exist. It cannot depend on anyone else. No higher authority can have precedence on its absolute power. When power is relative and limited,
there can be no sovereignty.
Our nation was set up with limited federal power and sovereign states and people. Now I think I hear your mother calling it your bed time.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
"Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live ? Oh, How can ye live,
How can ye live ?
.
Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live,
When there are good men dying, every day ?" Traditional
The question of sovereignty is about who holds ultimate power and who is in charge of national decision-making? The dictionary is clear and unambiguous when it comes to the definition of the word
"SOVEREIGNTY". It is the supreme authority, with an absolute power to command obedience.Our nation was born a sovereign nation with sovereign states and citizens.At first, the power seems to be on the
side of Authority but this power is conditional to the good will of Obedience. If Obedience refuses to submit, Authority has no power.
Obedience is the one who holds the real power.
She can choose to use or give up this power.
Authority perpetually lives in the fear of loosing her false power,that is why it uses different strategies in order to persuade obedience to give up her real power.
Authority buys the good will of obedience with rewards,such as FFL licensing or other gifts of predisposed power such as a concealed carry permit, a permit is NOT a right, it is a reward for obedience also consider the celebrated P-A-P carrots - Power, Money, Prestige. She even promises an upcoming and supreme carrot - a place in heaven after death. The reward system works very well and guarantees the obedience of the great majority of the population.
Absolute power is required in order for sovereignty to exist. It cannot depend on anyone else. No higher authority can have precedence on its absolute power. When power is relative and limited,
there can be no sovereignty.
Our nation was set up with limited federal power and sovereign states and people. Now I think I hear your mother calling it your bed time.
I think you need to harken back to the original title of this thread, and contemplate just who you really are and to whom you are beholden.
The rest will resolve itself.
Funny, It's just a pass time. The real work comes by doing not ............. on this post.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
I didn't use the word.
And of course I have no idea of what you do, other than what you claim and write here.
I was asking how it was working out for you.
Like I said, it's been 40 years so far for me, and I see no changes.
Are you still buying a car tag ?
Marriage license ?
Filing your taxes ?
Paying them at the cash register ?
Got that land patent yet ?
Done anything about all them 14th amendment citizens ?
I'll just bet that all the local cops know not to mess with you.
Put that on a bumper sticker yet ?
Perhaps you could tell me just how much more sovereign you are today, than when you began ?
Either Americans wake up as a people and understand their place in the great society or we are lost as a nation of sovereign people.
I do what I can but the fact is it takes a nation of people to want true freedom..
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
I didn't use the word.
And of course I have no idea of what you do, other than what you claim and write here.
I was asking how it was working out for you.
Like I said, it's been 40 years so far for me, and I see no changes.
Are you still buying a car tag ?
Marriage license ?
Filing your taxes ?
Paying them at the cash register ?
Got that land patent yet ?
Done anything about all them 14th amendment citizens ?
I'll just bet that all the local cops know not to mess with you.
Put that on a bumper sticker yet ?
Perhaps you could tell me just how much more sovereign you are today, than when you began ?
Either Americans wake up as a people and understand their place in the great society or we are lost as a nation of sovereign people.
quote:Sovereign Citizens, as lofty as the title sounds, are NUTBAGS.
I can agree with this 100%. I have met people in the sovereign citizen movement and they are more radical than the nut cases in San Francisco. I have been invited to meetings in the past , I refused, We are a nation of laws,,all people in this nation are subject to those laws, its what keeps us from being like the thugs over in all those African countries that keep raping and killing all of their own peoples or the radical Muslims that keep beheading everyone that does not agree with them. To be honest the Dozen or so of them I have met to remind me of radical muslims,they are so focused on their beliefs they cant see the light. If you dont like the laws you work through the system to change them. Now I dont know who people are in these rooms , what most of you do for a living or even how you live but I can tell you that if you consider yourself a member of that movement you need real mental health for you have serious issues
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
I didn't use the word.
And of course I have no idea of what you do, other than what you claim and write here.
I was asking how it was working out for you.
Like I said, it's been 40 years so far for me, and I see no changes.
Are you still buying a car tag ?
Marriage license ?
Filing your taxes ?
Paying them at the cash register ?
Got that land patent yet ?
Done anything about all them 14th amendment citizens ?
I'll just bet that all the local cops know not to mess with you.
Put that on a bumper sticker yet ?
Perhaps you could tell me just how much more sovereign you are today, than when you began ?
Either Americans wake up as a people and understand their place in the great society or we are lost as a nation of sovereign people.
I do what I can but the fact is it takes a nation of people to want true freedom..
No, it doesn't.
Don't blame others if you are not free.
But, then, first one must know what freedom actually is.
It is not doing whatever you want.
And that goes back to my first post in this thread.
The Jews thought they were free in 1933 and all was well.Some times ignorance is bliss. True freedom comes with responsibility to your God, your country, your neighbor. I never said it did not come with doing whatever you want, so DO NOT put words in my mouth.
I do not need big brother telling me how to dress, how to medicate, how to live, how to pray, how to eat, how to act, how to etc..........etc.....
I do not take government handouts like 47% of Americans do.
I do not owe anyone a damn penny.
I don't rely on government handouts like millions of others.
You don't know me!
And it does take an awakened NATION TO WISE UP TO THE FACTS OF OPPRESSIVE. REPRESSIVE, GOVERNMENT. it started with the Tea party in some respect,and until this happens with the constitution once again,it will just get more oppressive. I'm done Iv'e said my piece.
The States are in charge of electing the President and the Vice President PRECISELY because the agreement known as the Connecticut Compromise acknowledged the need of a free society for strong leadership, in a world where royalist ambition and subterfuge was potent, incredibly potent (a problem which remains to this day). The southern and northern slaveholding States were forced to accept the 3/5ths rule so that the 'votes' of their free men would not out-balance the votes of the free men of the non-slaveholding States. Delaware and Kentucky are two examples of slaveholding States which stayed in the union at the time of the War Between the States, and the real problem with the present corrupt government is three-fold:
1) the illegal manner in which the Income Tax or 16th Amendment was adopted;
2) the completely illegal and unconstitutional manner in which the so-called Fourteenth Amendment was written, issued, and then rejected, and then forcibly approved, by Reconstruction laws and policies, including using military forces to usurp freely-elected legislatures, including bodies which had previously voted to adopt the Anti-Slavery Amendment of 1865, and which provided its ratification;
3) the suppression and deletion of the true 13th Amendment, passed by patriots in the Eleventh Congress and ratified by thirteen of the seventeen States in the union as of 1810, in March of 1819; this amendment prohibits Titles of Honor as well as providing the penalty of loss of Citizenship ... and all its attendant privileges ... for those convicted of accepting "emoluments" or "pensions" from foreign Powers, Princes, Kings or Emperors: and the loss of Citizenship also clearly demarcates the political responsibility of Congress for setting the exact terms of citizenship and what constitutes an 'emolument.' A pension, in those terms, refers to a grant of land which pays a rent or a gift of a house or domicile with an annual stipend provided from some source or another.
The original 13th Amendment does not prohibit lawyers calling themselves "esquires," nor from forming associations or setting up their own 'bars' but it does prohibit them from pledging fealty or allegiance to the King's or Queen's Courts or any such contrivance, no matter how many layers of masquerade it may acquire, such as "the International Bar Association" or any other such corporate fiction.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
So slick, have you been redeemed?
I'm joking, but then, so are you.
Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
When the ultimate state to be desired is to serve the true Sovereign, it kinda makes arguments about this sort of foolishness seem rather pale.
Our founders of this nation knew what it meant to obey natural laws. These laws had a basis in the scriptures. Things like defending oneself and their family's. The 2nd amendment is derived from those understandings.
Comments
Just when will that be? How will I know when it is too late?
A privilege is granted by an entity in authority; a right is intrinsic.
The founders believed that rights came from the Creator. I see no reason to disagree with them. I have to wonder about atheists though. No Creator = no rights.
Can government grant rights? Seems like that was answered above. If government grants it, it is a privilege.
The notion of sovereignty, I thought applied to kings and countries that have kings. I never heard the term applied to anyone in the USA until your friends started appearing on the news and in police intelligence bulletins.
The 2nd Amendment is a right defined. The right was there; the Constitution just reaffirmed it.
We are known by the company we keep, and I choose not to associate with murderers, except to put them in jail.
quote:I suggest you get off your * and try to understand what your duty to your oath means before its too late.
Just when will that be? How will I know when it is too late?
A privilege is granted by an entity in authority; a right is intrinsic.
The founders believed that rights came from the Creator. I see no reason to disagree with them. I have to wonder about atheists though. No Creator = no rights.
Can government grant rights? Seems like that was answered above. If government grants it, it is a privilege.
The notion of sovereignty, I thought applied to kings and countries that have kings. I never heard the term applied to anyone in the USA until your friends started appearing on the news and in police intelligence bulletins.
The 2nd Amendment is a right defined. The right was there; the Constitution just reaffirmed it.
We are known by the company we keep, and I choose not to associate with murderers, except to put them in jail.
As far as sovereignty:
I suggest you take a course of study and become knowledgeable on the difference between the power of Kings before the revolutionary war and the power of the people after the war. Look up allodial title of land.After the Declaration of Independence (1776), the American Revolution, and the Treaty of Peace with Great Britain (1783), the American people became complete, sovereign freeholders in the land with the same prerogative as the King. The King had no further claim to the land and could not tax or otherwise encumber it.
What does it mean to be a Sovereign Citizen?
The word "sovereign" is defined in the 6th edition of Black's Law Dictionary, published in 1990, as being, "A person, body, or state in which independent authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler in a monarchy." Prior to the War for American Independence, the British king was the sovereign and the American people were his subjects. The war's outcome changed all this:
The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people - and he who before was a "subject of the king" is now "a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, North Carolina, Vol. 20, Page 121 (1838)
Thus, the people became Citizens of their respective states. But more importantly, for the first and only time in recorded history, the people were recognized as being the true sovereigns:
It will be sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance... No such ideas obtain here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to govern but themselves...
Chisholm v. Georgia, Dallas' Supreme Court Reports, Vol. 2, Pages
Before the war the king was sovereign in this country after the war the people became sovereign. It was the "people" that granted government 'Limited"powers ,NOT the other way around. Today you cops think you have the power but you are still servants and many times your kind forget this.You are still bound by the common laws of this land and the Constitution. Statute law must be in line and agree with common law or it is "No law".
I'm done with this discussion with you,educate yourself.
A high-sounding title doesn't make a criminal not a criminal.
I have seen what "Sovereign Citizens" are capable of. If you are of that stripe, then I have no use for you, either.
A high-sounding title doesn't make a criminal not a criminal.
By the same token,I have no use for a government employee that blindly follows orders and is ignorant of the history of the formation of this nation and its laws.
Don't let a few misguided so called sovereign citizens be the foundation of your thinking, if in fact they were misguided.
My feeling is that your blinders have been in place too long.
The people and their respective states are sovereign, they formed a trust with and by the united sovereign states that gave limited power
contained in the Constitution and amendments to a federal bureaucracy
that was allowed to serve the united states and the people which were sovereign, this "trust" was conditional on the fact that they "OBEY THEIR OATH" anything less is treason.
You can continue in your myopic realm and I will continue to teach and preach true individual freedom granted by allodial title and right,granted by common law,God's law, and natures law.
There are 10's if not 100's of thousands waking up to the truth of oppressive,repressive government.
You go your way and I'll go mine. i won't post to you and I prefer you don't post to me. You have made your choices in life, we will agree to disagree. where is the ignore button.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
I have seen what "Sovereign Citizens" are capable of. If you are of that stripe, then I have no use for you, either.
A high-sounding title doesn't make a criminal not a criminal.
By the same token,I have no use for a government employee that blindly follows orders and is ignorant of the history of the formation of this nation and its laws.
Don't let a few misguided so called sovereign citizens be the foundation of your thinking, if in fact they were misguided.
My feeling is that your blinders have been in place too long.
The people and their respective states are sovereign, they formed a trust with and by the united sovereign states that gave limited power
contained in the Constitution and amendments to a federal bureaucracy
that was allowed to serve the united states and the people which were sovereign, this "trust" was conditional on the fact that they "OBEY THEIR OATH" anything less is treason.
You can continue in your myopic realm and I will continue to teach and preach true individual freedom granted by allodial title and right,granted by common law,God's law, and natures law.
There are 10's if not 100's of thousands waking up to the truth of oppressive,repressive government.
You go your way and I'll go mine. i won't post to you and I prefer you don't post to me. You have made your choices in life, we will agree to disagree. where is the ignore button.
Please allow me to jump in here. As I have already said, you seem like a sincere person so you will never get any snarly posts from me. Although I believe you are a little confused.
In red above. Many of our modern laws, the ones you apparently don't support, were inspired by common law. Regarding God's law, God's law is supreme in extremist Muslim countries. There they call God Allah and Allah's law is shariah law. I doubt you would like living there. When America was founded, the founders meant for citizens to be able to have justice and a civilized society without having to think God makes our laws. He does not.
In regard to nature's laws, we all had that one time. It called living in the jungle and I do not want to go back to that. Although, in your defense there is one of "nature's laws" I support. The natural law of an innocent creature to use any means available to defend from unpovoked attack.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
True colors are being displayed, slowly but surely...
Thanks!
Give a feller enough rope...
True colors are being displayed, slowly but surely...
Thanks!
It won't do any good to give you the cites but others may benefit here.
"The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime." - Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486, 489.
Hertado v. California, 110 U.S. 516 states very plainly: "The State cannot diminish rights of the people."
"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of Constitutional rights."- Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F. 945.
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;" - ART. 6, U.S. CONST.
We know that Police officers, are a part of the Executive branch.
You are a licensee of a run away out of control government.
I'm done now please refrain from posting to me.
by Scott Eric Rosenstiel
What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back.
This brings us to the question, "What are we getting back?" What does it mean to be a Sovereign Citizen?
The word "sovereign" is defined in the 6th edition of Black's Law Dictionary, published in 1990, as being, "A person, body, or state in which independent authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler in a monarchy." Prior to the War for American Independence, the British king was the sovereign and the American people were his subjects. The war's outcome changed all this:
The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people - and he who before was a "subject of the king" is now "a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, North Carolina, Vol. 20, Page 121 (1838)
Thus, the people became Citizens of their respective states. But more importantly, for the first and only time in recorded history, the people were recognized as being the true sovereigns:
It will be sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance... No such ideas obtain here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to govern but themselves...
Chisholm v. Georgia, Dallas' Supreme Court Reports, Vol. 2, Pages
471, 472 (1793)
Each individual, at least so far as respects his unalienable rights is his own sovereign. These rights weren't given to any government. In fact, they can't be. Perhaps you can give up all of your rights, if you so choose, but who has the power to give your rights up for you? In America, no one can, because we're all equal. In American this principle of popular sovereign is recognized by all governments - state and federal. When the states became independent, the state governments were formed, all of them based on the authority of the people, and not the will of one man or a small body of men. The federal government as we know it today was created in 1789 when the federal constitution went into effect. The constitution mentioned something previously unknown in American law: Citizenship of the United States:
The term, citizens of the United States, must be understood to intend those who were citizens of a state, as such, after the Union had commenced, and the several states had assumed their sovereignties. Before this period there was no citizen of the United States...
Manchester v. Boston, Massachusetts Reports, Vol. 16, Page 235
(1819)
Thus a Citizen of a state is, by the federal constitution, made a Citizen of the United States. This means the following:
A citizen of one state is to be considered as a citizen of every other state in the union.
Butler v. Farnsworth, Federal Cases, Vol. 4, Page 902 (1821)
A Citizen of any one of the states is considered and treated as being a Citizen of all of them. The phrase "Citizen of the United States" does not refer to a separate class of citizenship:
A citizen of any one of the States of the Union, is held to be, and called a citizen of the United States, although technically and abstractly there is no such thing. To conceive a citizen of the United States who is not a citizen of some one of the States, is totally foreign to the idea, and inconsistent with the proper construction and common understanding of the expression as used in the Constitution, which must be deduced from its various other provisions.
Ex parte. - Frank Knowles, California Reports, Vol. 5, Page 302 (1855)
Because of the principles enunciated in the above cases and others like them, it's correct to say that the American people are Citizens of our respective states. But we're more than this. We're in a very real sense Citizens of all the states. We are, in the greatest sense, and proudly so,Citizens of the several United States.
This brings us to what are considered as being the rights inherent in Citizenship in America:
When men entered into a State they yielded a part of their absolute rights, or natural liberty, for political or civil liberty, which is no other than natural liberty restrained by human laws, so far as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public. The rights of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, - and, in general, of attaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury to another, are the rights of a citizen; and all men by nature have them.
Douglass, Adm'r., v. Stephens, Delaware Chancery, Vol. 1, Page 470 (1821)
These are the rights inherent in Sovereign Citizenship. So long as we remained Citizens, they couldn't be taken away from us. So the key was to take our Citizenship away from us.
Excellent Article for a beginning understanding.
Give a feller enough rope...
True colors are being displayed, slowly but surely...
Thanks!
[;)]Amen Brother. Be safe![:)]
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Give a feller enough rope...
True colors are being displayed, slowly but surely...
Thanks!
[;)]Amen Brother. Be safe![:)]
The Government and the ATF are giving FFL dealers some noose as well.
All for the privilege of licking the boots of their master.
ARTICLE #1: What is Sovereign Citizenship?
by Scott Eric Rosenstiel
What is Sovereign Citizenship? Sovereign Citizenship is the status held by our forefathers. George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and everyone else who won their freedom from the British Empire had this status. It was the birthright of all Americans, and we were generous in extending this most important right to foreign-born persons through the naturalization laws. With this status, our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property couldn't be infringed. During the Civil War a method was discovered by the leading attorneys, financiers, and politicians of the day to deprive us of this status. Fortunately, we can get it back.
This brings us to the question, "What are we getting back?" What does it mean to be a Sovereign Citizen?
The word "sovereign" is defined in the 6th edition of Black's Law Dictionary, published in 1990, as being, "A person, body, or state in which independent authority is vested; a chief ruler with supreme power; a king or other ruler in a monarchy." Prior to the War for American Independence, the British king was the sovereign and the American people were his subjects. The war's outcome changed all this:
The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people - and he who before was a "subject of the king" is now "a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, North Carolina, Vol. 20, Page 121 (1838)
Thus, the people became Citizens of their respective states. But more importantly, for the first and only time in recorded history, the people were recognized as being the true sovereigns:
It will be sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe, and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the people as his subjects; it regards his person as the object of allegiance... No such ideas obtain here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to govern but themselves...
Chisholm v. Georgia, Dallas' Supreme Court Reports, Vol. 2, Pages
471, 472 (1793)
Each individual, at least so far as respects his unalienable rights is his own sovereign. These rights weren't given to any government. In fact, they can't be. Perhaps you can give up all of your rights, if you so choose, but who has the power to give your rights up for you? In America, no one can, because we're all equal. In American this principle of popular sovereign is recognized by all governments - state and federal. When the states became independent, the state governments were formed, all of them based on the authority of the people, and not the will of one man or a small body of men. The federal government as we know it today was created in 1789 when the federal constitution went into effect. The constitution mentioned something previously unknown in American law: Citizenship of the United States:
The term, citizens of the United States, must be understood to intend those who were citizens of a state, as such, after the Union had commenced, and the several states had assumed their sovereignties. Before this period there was no citizen of the United States...
Manchester v. Boston, Massachusetts Reports, Vol. 16, Page 235
(1819)
Thus a Citizen of a state is, by the federal constitution, made a Citizen of the United States. This means the following:
A citizen of one state is to be considered as a citizen of every other state in the union.
Butler v. Farnsworth, Federal Cases, Vol. 4, Page 902 (1821)
A Citizen of any one of the states is considered and treated as being a Citizen of all of them. The phrase "Citizen of the United States" does not refer to a separate class of citizenship:
A citizen of any one of the States of the Union, is held to be, and called a citizen of the United States, although technically and abstractly there is no such thing. To conceive a citizen of the United States who is not a citizen of some one of the States, is totally foreign to the idea, and inconsistent with the proper construction and common understanding of the expression as used in the Constitution, which must be deduced from its various other provisions.
Ex parte. - Frank Knowles, California Reports, Vol. 5, Page 302 (1855)
Because of the principles enunciated in the above cases and others like them, it's correct to say that the American people are Citizens of our respective states. But we're more than this. We're in a very real sense Citizens of all the states. We are, in the greatest sense, and proudly so,Citizens of the several United States.
This brings us to what are considered as being the rights inherent in Citizenship in America:
When men entered into a State they yielded a part of their absolute rights, or natural liberty, for political or civil liberty, which is no other than natural liberty restrained by human laws, so far as is necessary and expedient for the general advantage of the public. The rights of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring and protecting reputation and property, - and, in general, of attaining objects suitable to their condition, without injury to another, are the rights of a citizen; and all men by nature have them.
Douglass, Adm'r., v. Stephens, Delaware Chancery, Vol. 1, Page 470 (1821)
These are the rights inherent in Sovereign Citizenship. So long as we remained Citizens, they couldn't be taken away from us. So the key was to take our Citizenship away from us.
Excellent Article for a beginning understanding.
What is or was done to citizenship?
Constitutional Topic: Citizenship
The Fourteenth Amendment and a "natural born citizen"
A common misunderstanding of "natural born" citizenship comes from the Fourteenth Amendment, but a strict reading of the fourteenth amendment is quite clear that this only conveys an at birth naturalized citizenship. Those born in the United States at the time of adoption and afterwards were only citizens. Those who wrote the amendment knew exactly what they were doing. Because of the distinctive use of "natural born citizen" and "citizen," in Article II, Section 1 the simple fact that being born in the United States does not make one a "natural born citizen," it only makes one "a citizen."
The Fourteenth amendment states in Section 1,
Section 1 - "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Obviously missing is the conveyance of "natural born" status to these citizens. In fact what is obviously included in the text is the term "naturalized." This section has several clauses, the first deals with citizenship.
http://www.birthers.org/USC/14.html
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Lettuce prey...
Your ignorance is slightly showing!
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Lettuce prey...
Your ignorance is slightly showing!
Been There? Done that? I doubt it, you are likely a government grunt, paid and owned IMO.
Been there, done that.
Alloidal titles, land patents, 14th amendment citizens, voluntary taxes, blah blah blah blah blah de freaking dah. Been around for forty years, and more.
You hold tight to that stuff, and see what you will have left in your hands.
Some folks are just in a real darn hurry to lead and see others sacrifice themselves to water the tree of liberty.
I'll tell you what....show me one man with a demonstrated good grounding in scripture and the orthodox church, that runs in that pack.
And then you might have a point.
Otherwise it is just mouthing the arcane conspiracy rants of jail house lawyers and assorted do-nothings, when it gets right down to it.
In my opinion.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
"Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live ? Oh, How can ye live,
How can ye live ?
.
Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live,
When there are good men dying, every day ?" Traditional
The question of sovereignty is about who holds ultimate power and who is in charge of national decision-making? The dictionary is clear and unambiguous when it comes to the definition of the word
"SOVEREIGNTY". It is the supreme authority, with an absolute power to command obedience.Our nation was born a sovereign nation with sovereign states and citizens.At first, the power seems to be on the
side of Authority but this power is conditional to the good will of Obedience. If Obedience refuses to submit, Authority has no power.
Obedience is the one who holds the real power.
She can choose to use or give up this power.
Authority perpetually lives in the fear of loosing her false power,that is why it uses different strategies in order to persuade obedience to give up her real power.
Authority buys the good will of obedience with rewards,such as FFL licensing or other gifts of predisposed power such as a concealed carry permit, a permit is NOT a right, it is a reward for obedience also consider the celebrated P-A-P carrots - Power, Money, Prestige. She even promises an upcoming and supreme carrot - a place in heaven after death. The reward system works very well and guarantees the obedience of the great majority of the population.
Absolute power is required in order for sovereignty to exist. It cannot depend on anyone else. No higher authority can have precedence on its absolute power. When power is relative and limited,
there can be no sovereignty.
Our nation was set up with limited federal power and sovereign states and people. Now I think I hear your mother calling it your bed time.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
"Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live ? Oh, How can ye live,
How can ye live ?
.
Oh, ye deadheads and suckers,
How can ye live,
When there are good men dying, every day ?" Traditional
The question of sovereignty is about who holds ultimate power and who is in charge of national decision-making? The dictionary is clear and unambiguous when it comes to the definition of the word
"SOVEREIGNTY". It is the supreme authority, with an absolute power to command obedience.Our nation was born a sovereign nation with sovereign states and citizens.At first, the power seems to be on the
side of Authority but this power is conditional to the good will of Obedience. If Obedience refuses to submit, Authority has no power.
Obedience is the one who holds the real power.
She can choose to use or give up this power.
Authority perpetually lives in the fear of loosing her false power,that is why it uses different strategies in order to persuade obedience to give up her real power.
Authority buys the good will of obedience with rewards,such as FFL licensing or other gifts of predisposed power such as a concealed carry permit, a permit is NOT a right, it is a reward for obedience also consider the celebrated P-A-P carrots - Power, Money, Prestige. She even promises an upcoming and supreme carrot - a place in heaven after death. The reward system works very well and guarantees the obedience of the great majority of the population.
Absolute power is required in order for sovereignty to exist. It cannot depend on anyone else. No higher authority can have precedence on its absolute power. When power is relative and limited,
there can be no sovereignty.
Our nation was set up with limited federal power and sovereign states and people. Now I think I hear your mother calling it your bed time.
I think you need to harken back to the original title of this thread, and contemplate just who you really are and to whom you are beholden.
The rest will resolve itself.
Funny, It's just a pass time. The real work comes by doing not ............. on this post.
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
I didn't use the word.
And of course I have no idea of what you do, other than what you claim and write here.
I was asking how it was working out for you.
Like I said, it's been 40 years so far for me, and I see no changes.
Are you still buying a car tag ?
Marriage license ?
Filing your taxes ?
Paying them at the cash register ?
Got that land patent yet ?
Done anything about all them 14th amendment citizens ?
I'll just bet that all the local cops know not to mess with you.
Put that on a bumper sticker yet ?
Perhaps you could tell me just how much more sovereign you are today, than when you began ?
Either Americans wake up as a people and understand their place in the great society or we are lost as a nation of sovereign people.
I do what I can but the fact is it takes a nation of people to want true freedom..
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
I didn't use the word.
And of course I have no idea of what you do, other than what you claim and write here.
I was asking how it was working out for you.
Like I said, it's been 40 years so far for me, and I see no changes.
Are you still buying a car tag ?
Marriage license ?
Filing your taxes ?
Paying them at the cash register ?
Got that land patent yet ?
Done anything about all them 14th amendment citizens ?
I'll just bet that all the local cops know not to mess with you.
Put that on a bumper sticker yet ?
Perhaps you could tell me just how much more sovereign you are today, than when you began ?
Either Americans wake up as a people and understand their place in the great society or we are lost as a nation of sovereign people.
I do what I can but the fact is it takes a nation of people to want true freedom..
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/12/regulation-nation-drowning-in-rules-businesses-brace-for-cost-and-time-for/
I can agree with this 100%. I have met people in the sovereign citizen movement and they are more radical than the nut cases in San Francisco. I have been invited to meetings in the past , I refused, We are a nation of laws,,all people in this nation are subject to those laws, its what keeps us from being like the thugs over in all those African countries that keep raping and killing all of their own peoples or the radical Muslims that keep beheading everyone that does not agree with them. To be honest the Dozen or so of them I have met to remind me of radical muslims,they are so focused on their beliefs they cant see the light. If you dont like the laws you work through the system to change them. Now I dont know who people are in these rooms , what most of you do for a living or even how you live but I can tell you that if you consider yourself a member of that movement you need real mental health for you have serious issues
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
I didn't use the word.
And of course I have no idea of what you do, other than what you claim and write here.
I was asking how it was working out for you.
Like I said, it's been 40 years so far for me, and I see no changes.
Are you still buying a car tag ?
Marriage license ?
Filing your taxes ?
Paying them at the cash register ?
Got that land patent yet ?
Done anything about all them 14th amendment citizens ?
I'll just bet that all the local cops know not to mess with you.
Put that on a bumper sticker yet ?
Perhaps you could tell me just how much more sovereign you are today, than when you began ?
Either Americans wake up as a people and understand their place in the great society or we are lost as a nation of sovereign people.
I do what I can but the fact is it takes a nation of people to want true freedom..
No, it doesn't.
Don't blame others if you are not free.
But, then, first one must know what freedom actually is.
It is not doing whatever you want.
And that goes back to my first post in this thread.
The Jews thought they were free in 1933 and all was well.Some times ignorance is bliss. True freedom comes with responsibility to your God, your country, your neighbor. I never said it did not come with doing whatever you want, so DO NOT put words in my mouth.
I do not need big brother telling me how to dress, how to medicate, how to live, how to pray, how to eat, how to act, how to etc..........etc.....
I do not take government handouts like 47% of Americans do.
I do not owe anyone a damn penny.
I don't rely on government handouts like millions of others.
You don't know me!
And it does take an awakened NATION TO WISE UP TO THE FACTS OF OPPRESSIVE. REPRESSIVE, GOVERNMENT. it started with the Tea party in some respect,and until this happens with the constitution once again,it will just get more oppressive. I'm done Iv'e said my piece.
Freedom isn't Free!
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=20365
The States are in charge of electing the President and the Vice President PRECISELY because the agreement known as the Connecticut Compromise acknowledged the need of a free society for strong leadership, in a world where royalist ambition and subterfuge was potent, incredibly potent (a problem which remains to this day). The southern and northern slaveholding States were forced to accept the 3/5ths rule so that the 'votes' of their free men would not out-balance the votes of the free men of the non-slaveholding States. Delaware and Kentucky are two examples of slaveholding States which stayed in the union at the time of the War Between the States, and the real problem with the present corrupt government is three-fold:
1) the illegal manner in which the Income Tax or 16th Amendment was adopted;
2) the completely illegal and unconstitutional manner in which the so-called Fourteenth Amendment was written, issued, and then rejected, and then forcibly approved, by Reconstruction laws and policies, including using military forces to usurp freely-elected legislatures, including bodies which had previously voted to adopt the Anti-Slavery Amendment of 1865, and which provided its ratification;
3) the suppression and deletion of the true 13th Amendment, passed by patriots in the Eleventh Congress and ratified by thirteen of the seventeen States in the union as of 1810, in March of 1819; this amendment prohibits Titles of Honor as well as providing the penalty of loss of Citizenship ... and all its attendant privileges ... for those convicted of accepting "emoluments" or "pensions" from foreign Powers, Princes, Kings or Emperors: and the loss of Citizenship also clearly demarcates the political responsibility of Congress for setting the exact terms of citizenship and what constitutes an 'emolument.' A pension, in those terms, refers to a grant of land which pays a rent or a gift of a house or domicile with an annual stipend provided from some source or another.
The original 13th Amendment does not prohibit lawyers calling themselves "esquires," nor from forming associations or setting up their own 'bars' but it does prohibit them from pledging fealty or allegiance to the King's or Queen's Courts or any such contrivance, no matter how many layers of masquerade it may acquire, such as "the International Bar Association" or any other such corporate fiction.
http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/art1.html
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You've already said how busy you are signing petitions and writing letters.
Good luck.
I guess that's worked well for you in the past.
You know what they say about those that assume.
I spend money ,time and effort, you don't have a clue.
So slick, have you been redeemed?
I'm joking, but then, so are you.
Job 19:25
When the ultimate state to be desired is to serve the true Sovereign, it kinda makes arguments about this sort of foolishness seem rather pale.
Our founders of this nation knew what it meant to obey natural laws. These laws had a basis in the scriptures. Things like defending oneself and their family's. The 2nd amendment is derived from those understandings.
God
Citizen
Government
NOT
Government
Citizen
God.