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Private dealer sales
fyrfinder
Member Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
I never see any comments about private dealer sales. I don't understand the concept of a "private dealer" to start with, a private dealer is miles away from a private party selling a weapon to someone that he knows or trusts.
I go to gun shows, I enjoy gun shows and have purchased a couple of nice pieces from private parties, but it makes me a little nuts sometimes (figuratively speaking only) when I see a table with 30 -40 handguns and a sign that says "private seller".
Those that I have observed have purchased the arms for resale, they are brand new in most cases and they are being offered to make a profit. They are firearms dealers and I don't see how they fit into any private party loophole ..... except that they serve some type of benefit to the Fed's to assure that the weapons will get out to the wrong people.
I saw something I liked in Seattle Washington some time back, where a person could go to a dealer and obtain a copy of the form to have filled out and then both the buyer and seller retained a copy.
Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.
What are your thoughts on this?
[?]
I go to gun shows, I enjoy gun shows and have purchased a couple of nice pieces from private parties, but it makes me a little nuts sometimes (figuratively speaking only) when I see a table with 30 -40 handguns and a sign that says "private seller".
Those that I have observed have purchased the arms for resale, they are brand new in most cases and they are being offered to make a profit. They are firearms dealers and I don't see how they fit into any private party loophole ..... except that they serve some type of benefit to the Fed's to assure that the weapons will get out to the wrong people.
I saw something I liked in Seattle Washington some time back, where a person could go to a dealer and obtain a copy of the form to have filled out and then both the buyer and seller retained a copy.
Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.
What are your thoughts on this?
[?]
Comments
Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.
What are your thoughts on this?
[?]
You have answered your own question. If all sales have to go through a background check and the creation of a paper trail, we are one generation of having a complete Federal database of all firearms.
I ask you to consider how our Revolution may have turned out had King George had such documentation at his disposal in April of 1775.
Brad Steele
As you describe, those would be unlawful sales. You cannot legally be a "private dealer" Anyone in the business of selling firearms must legally have an FFL.
Must not be unlawful because I see it on going at the local guns shows every event, and I have been told that the Fed's have visited and apparently they see nothing wrong as long as the person has a sign declaring that they are a "private" dealer or seller. Last show it was everyone that wasn't a licensed dealer declaring that they were a private seller.
Now, in my humble opinion, the Fed's are either not doing their job, or there is a reason that they are not saying anything about the sales, and it could very possibly be that it is something like the fast and furious deal that they are purposely baiting straw buyer's.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing that "loophole" closed and the intent of a private party sale be brought back to what it was intended to be.
[:)]
quote:Originally posted by fyrfinder
Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.
What are your thoughts on this?
[?]
You have answered your own question. If all sales have to go through a background check and the creation of a paper trail, we are one generation of having a complete Federal database of all firearms.
I ask you to consider how our Revolution may have turned out had King George had such documentation at his disposal in April of 1775.
Considering the type of weapons that the Revolutionist's had at there disposal, it was probably an oversight on the part of the British. The British arms were probably thought to be far superior to the farmer's hunting weapons, and the training that the British troops had would/should have given them a far greater advantage over the rag tag militant's.
Our government is trying to cover that short coming by banning all "assault" weapons, in order to maintain the upper hand. Problem with the concept is they are not paying attention to the historical changes in warfare., Since Vietnam it has been hit and run with major use of boobytraps, and of course the government has drones and fighter's, but wiping out people's homes is not going to go over too well with the general population.
If the government is concerned about real assault weapons, it might behoove them to keep better tabs on their own arsenal's. Over the years I have noticed that the government is providing quite a bit of heavy stuff to private hands. M16's have been "lost", hand grenades have shown up for sale in private hands, rocket launcher's that were used in Vietnam were being discarded in the desert until they learned that they could reload them.
They even lost a few tanks it would appear, I know of one that was lost in a river during exercises, and one that was recovered from a wash with equipment that wasn't available at the time it was abandoned.
[8D]
As of now in most states I can liquidate my large gun collection at a gun show without Federal paperwork. I am not "in the business". What you described seemed to be a guy buying new,recently manufactured guns for resale at a profit. Clearly that is prohibited. The guy would be charged specifically with "dealing in firearms without a license" All this can be found on the ATF web site
Agreed, that is what is appears to me to be what is happening. I know if I offered any or all of what I have on a gun show table, it sure would look a lot different than what I am observing on some of these guy's tables. The majority of the tables are what my stuff would look like, a couple of this, a couple of that, might be one in the box weapon that has been in the box for several years and never found a fondness with me. Very few of what I have could be mistaken for something bought retail and turned over for profit.
Thinking about it, I don't think I ever sold anything at a profit ... most of what I did pass on I was talked out of and let it go for what I had in it or less. Flaw in my character I guess. [8D]
As you describe, those would be unlawful sales. You cannot legally be a "private dealer" Anyone in the business of selling firearms must legally have an FFL.
In 1775, to LAWFULLY drink tea, you had to pay King George a tax.
In 1860, to LAWFULLY own land, you had be be a white man.
In 1930, no one LAWFULLY could drink alcohol.
In 1945, at age 17 you could die in the army, but you can't LAWFULLY vote for your president.
In 2013, millions of Americans can NOT LAWFULLY own their grandfathers .22lr rifle because it holds 8 rounds.
STICK YOUR LEGAL LAWS WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE.
That is a false statement even with the new New York law.
I don't believe that is true anywhere in the USA
I read somewhere this morning that the president can raise the debt ceiling without senate or congressional approval in the event of an "insurgence" or "civil disobedience" Now, that could explain quite a bit about the agenda to whip the population into a frenzy.
I still have strong feelings that this "change" that the administration is pushing has much to do with anointing Obama as King and dictator of America. For the good of the public and their safety of course.
[:p]
I don't belive the nics system is effective in stopping any crime, so why should take part in it if I don't have to.
you are wrong. If you sold any gun outside of your state without a background check you broke Federal law. You can currently sell your personal collection without being a dealer but you can't sell across State lines. In the OP it was pretty clear the person was selling brand new guns current guns
As far as anyone selling new guns without an ffl, more power to them.
I just loved debating with ignorant lying people
see the link below a summary of Federal laws. and the section I pasted. My red highlights
http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html
13. Transferring Personal Firearms (sell, give, loan)
a. A resident of a State may transfer a firearm to a resident of the same State.
1) But may not transfer a Hand Gun to a person under 18 years of age, A? 922 (x)(1), 1 year or 10 years; see exceptions, A? 922 (x)(3).
b. A resident of a State may not transfer a firearm to a resident of another State, A? 922 (a)(5), 5 years, but ...
1) May transfer a firearm to a non-resident via a Will or intestate succession (no Will but State law describes division of estate), A? 922 (a)(5)(A). May loan or rent a firearm to a non-resident for temporary lawful sporting purposes, A? 922 (a)(5)(B). May deliver a firearm to a non-resident by first delivering the firearm to an FFL in the recipient?_Ts State, the transfer would then take place at the FFL?_Ts premises, A? 922 (a)(1)(A).
B. FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEE (FFL) - Manufacturer, Importer, Wholesaler, Retailer, Pawnbroker, Gunsmith, Collector of Curios & Relics, A? 922 (a)(9-13, 21-22)
1. Firearms Business
a. Before engaging in the business of importing, manufacturing or dealing in firearms, a person must obtain a license from the ATF, A? 922 (a)(1)(A). Willful violation, 5 years.
The OP was about non ffl dealers not required to do background checks. Background checks do not prevent any crime nor do they solve any. A paper trail is just that and stops at the last legal transfer. It does not start a trail of any illegal transfers due to no paper.
If we want to be "fair", why not just impose a $200 tax and register all guns. I mean we do it to full autos so why not to everyone.
Personally I would rather see the NICS system done away with. Roll back gun laws 200 years, to when a man could own whatever he could afford.
quote:The OP was about non ffl dealers not required to do background checks
Here is the the key part of the OP
quote:Those that I have observed have purchased the arms for resale, they are brand new in most cases and they are being offered to make a profit. They are firearms dealers and I don't see how they fit into any private party loophole
The other type of 'Private Seller', is actually a commercial but unlicensed dealer who is trying to fly under the radar. These guys will cover a table with Hi-Points and various rubber-framed pistols that were made yesterday, and which were somehow obtained at wholesale prices. It's the mass and unrecorded sales of those, that attracts the Fed's attention.
nothing illegal about that in most States. Here in CT though, since it's at a show, Nics check is required with paperwork if a handgun
18a. Do You Intend To Sell Firearms Only at Gun Shows?
Yes (If yes, do not submit application)
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf
18a. Do You Intend To Sell Firearms Only at Gun Shows?
Yes (If yes, do not submit application)
your point???
That is there because if you do not have a business premises that can be inspected and have regular hours you do not get a license
Your business premises can be your home. box 17 type can be single family dwelling.
as for hours of business how about 1~3 pm Saturday?
ATF can inspect you business if it is your home.
As a C&R holder i know they can inspect my home or request me to present them at there office. Weapons as well as bound record book.
Your business premises can be your home. box 17 type can be single family dwelling.
as for hours of business how about 1~3 pm Saturday?
ATF can inspect you business if it is your home.
As a C&R holder i know they can inspect my home or request me to present them at there office. Weapons as well as bound record book.
The key word is only at gunshows. You can have an FFL in your home, we do with minimal hours , ours are M-th 6-8pm
AS for the gun show loophole. You probably know but It reads like you don't.
The loophole which I reject by the way, is that 2 non dealers can meet at a gunshow and in most staes complete a sale with no records required. BTW here in CT that would be illegal
quote:My point is that is the dreaded "GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE".
Your business premises can be your home. box 17 type can be single family dwelling.
as for hours of business how about 1~3 pm Saturday?
ATF can inspect you business if it is your home.
As a C&R holder i know they can inspect my home or request me to present them at there office. Weapons as well as bound record book.
The key word is only at gunshows. You can have an FFL in your home, we do with minimal hours , ours are M-th 6-8pm
AS for the gun show loophole. You probably know but It reads like you don't.
The loophole which I reject by the way, is that 2 non dealers can meet at a gunshow and in most staes complete a sale with no records required. BTW here in CT that would be illegal
The gun show loop hole I referred to was the ATF NOT requiring an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show.
It had nothing to do with addresses or hours.
Actually I think this is a transfer of private property. In some States private property is still private property.
I think the ATF FFL requirements don't apply due to interstate commerce. State and local laws still apply.
As long as there is an FFL between the private dealer and the manufacturer.
True it would greatly hamper the traceability of a firearm.
An FFL is not required to sell your personal property at a gunshow.
However it would be against Federal law for the seller to sell at a gun show not in his State of residence and against the law to for the seller to sell to to a buyer whose residence is not the same as the seller
quote:ATF NOT requiring an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show
An FFL is not required to sell your personal property at a gunshow.
However it would be against Federal law for the seller to sell at a gun show not in his State of residence and against the law to for the seller to sell to to a buyer whose residence is not the same as the seller
I agree completely.
But it bothers me that I cannot verify this quickly thru the ATF web site. It does seem consistent with interstate commerce, as currently applied.
You are referring to non FFL's about crossing state lines, correct?
Premier Gun Shows, LLC
June 20, 2011
SHOW RULES
In keeping with the spirit, as well as the intent, of all applicable gun laws, it is necessary that all
dealers / vendors, who sell firearms for a portion, or all, of their livelihood must posses a federal
firearms license.
Persons who sell guns from their personal collection, and who do not derive their livelihood from
the sale of firearms nor make a profit on sales, are not required to have a FFL.
That's an odd clause as when someone sells a personal collection bought over time almost every gun will be sold at a profit
quote: nor make a profit on sales
That's an odd clause as when someone sells a personal collection bought over time almost every gun will be sold at a profit
I know, that struck me as odd also. But no more than box 18 on the FFL application:
18. Do You Intend To Make a Profit from Your Business?
Yes No (If no, do not submit application)
ATF concerned with profitability of a business?
But with current prices and availability of weapons if I offered any at what i paid for them i am sure i would be checked out by authorities. We are well past the days of even the $80 High-Point.
You can go to the NYS Police website and download a PDF of the 98 page new laws that are being implemented under Safe Act.
23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt,
drum, feed strip, or similar device[, manufactured after September thir-
teenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four,] that has a capacity of, or that
can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of
ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an
attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating
only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands of those who feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you. May posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."-
Samuel Adams
Could you have a business if it's principal objective of firearm accessories such as mags,grips, rings and bases which generate most of the profit still offer some firearms as long as the PRINCIPAL OBJECTIVE of the business was not the sale of firearms.
Could I buy 6~8 firearms and go to a gun show as a hobby (not my source of livelihood).
However here we have to display our resale permit even for accessories , business is a business. You might be questioned how you separate the business from the guns which have to be personal. If you proceed with moderation you are likely to be fine
i have bought several (some may view a hoard) in the last couple of years just because i wanted to.
what is see is how people see the same phrase and see it differently. I guess that is why there are lawyers.
the "your collection" reference in the document is actually "..for the enhancement of a personal collection OR for a hobby"
i guess my hobby is taking older firearms and refinishing and cleaning them up.
i the question i think is only in reference to ATF rules. State, Local and even show organizer rule vary greatly.
with the varying views of the current rules they want MORE,.
If you wish to transfer a firearm to someone who lives in your OWN state, the Federal government has no jurisdiction, and you may do it any way you like, consistent with STATE law. The Feds ONLY control INTERSTATE transfers, defined as transfers between residents of DIFFERENT states.
If you plan to transfer ownership of a GCA68 "firearm" to a person who is a legal resident of another state, you MUST use a holder of a Federal Firearms License (FFL) to do it. Usually this will be a dealer with a class -01 license. This applies to ALL GCA68 firearms, long guns and handguns both. This transaction must be performed at the dealer's licensed premises or at a gun show in the same state as his licensed premises.
A dealer in MOST (not all) states is permitted to transfer LONG GUNS ONLY to non-residents if the sale is legal under state law both where the dealer does business and where the individual lives. This applies only to long guns, NOT handguns. Handguns can ONLY be transferred to a resident of the same state in which the dealer does business.
Individuals MAY NOT knowingly transfer ownership of any GCA68 firearm to a non-resident of their state. Even if it's your grandson, if he lives in another state and is at your home for Christmas you may NOT legally just hand him a gun as a gift. You MUST use an FFL for the transfer to be legal. You MAY NOT go to his home and transfer it there. It is an INTERSTATE transfer in either case. If your grandson is of age and lives in the SAME state you can do this.
Any GCA68 firearm manufactured more than 50 years prior to the current date may be transferred directly to the holder of a "C&R" (Curio & Relic) FFL, but note that a C&R licensee may ONLY receive C&R firearms in this way: if the gun isn't C&R he MUST receive it from an -01 licensee. Any gun manufactured BEFORE 1 January 1899 is legally an "antique" and is specifically exempted from the GCA by statute.
ONLY an FFL can transfer a "firearm" covered by the GCA68 between residents of different states. You may NOT legally do it in any other way. Anyone who tells you something different is wrong.
ALSO:
(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person's own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser's own State? [Back]
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
A few years ago, I was ordered to appear in Federal Court in Arizona to testify against just such a "dealer." The BATF had singled him out, opened an investigation, and had several agents purchase guns from him undercover, at gun shows. One of the guns was one that the "dealer" had bought from me.
The government spent no-telling-how-much money prosecuting this guy. It cost them a couple of grand just to get me to the trial, and I was not the only FFL subpoenaed.
In the end, the jury declined to convict the "dealer," so he walked, BUT, he is still out many tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, not to mention the emotional toll, and the headache of trying to get his seized guns back. Besides that, this guy will be on the BATF radar forever, so he will always have to be watching his six.
I have seen "private sellers" at gun shows, buying and selling and trading for profit, keeping no records, going to show after show, often with several tables covered in guns. They have signs up indicating that this is a "private collection," and that no paperwork is required and no sales tax is being collected.
When a feller maintains such a high profile, it should not surprise anyone when he comes to the attention of the federal and/or state officials.
That guy in Arizona is just one guy, just the one I know about, but you can bet if the BAT-men went after him, they are and have been similarly targeting others like him. Do what you will, but for God's sake, be careful!