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The first line at my old range was 7 yards (21 feet), and I was taught that the majority of all shootings happen within this distance.
...and for the NRA bashers, how about this analogy:
Gun Owners = United States
NRA = Soviet Union
Brady Campaign = Nazi Germany
How about we concentrate on the Nazis first, eh?
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Ill ask again......HAS ANYONE that finds the NRA so helpful written or talked to them about the THOUSANDS of ex members??????If you wish to furthur your cause why not?As to takin care of the NAZI s first how bout gettin the hometeam together first?Seems to me that LINE OD DEFENSE would be first,then we could take on the enemy enmasse eh?
Sorry fox,gotta agree with the shotgun thing also,It is in my opinion the best self defense arm available,even a 38 has more penetration than a shotgun inside a room....And How bout how LONG it takes an inexperianced person to load one?
A handgun takes MUCH more practice profiancy wise as well...tho at those ranges you still must be proficciant.....Still if you were an intruder would you not think about that shotgun staring at you ?Even the gangs of the west all feared one thing over all...The shotgun.Just my opinion....L.H.
Longhunter: If you put a .38+p (already loaded of course)into the hands of a newbie, it becomes merely a case of wait until the threat is close enough, then simply point and click.
With a pump shotgun it becomes a matter of hope the newie hasn't been playing with the gun and accidently loaded the shells in backwards. Then when the threat is coming down the hall and the newbie has forgotten to click off the safety the newbie is standing there with a worthless gun wondering why the damn thing won't shoot and solve the threat. Or, maybe the newbie picked up the shotgun when the safety was already off and under stress clicked the safety ON and now wonders why the shotgun won't fire. Or maybe the newbie cycled the action on an empty magazine and now the action is locked in battery and the newbie loads the magazine not reallizing that, even though the action is locked possibley indicating a loaded chamber, the action is really loocked on an empty chamber and when trigger is pulled (at the last second?) there will be a "click" instead of a "bang". Or maybe the shotgun is loaded properly, with an empty chamber, and when the threat comes down the hallway the newbie, under stress, shortcycles the action and causes a jam.
For ANY newbie, a revolver and point and click is the only guaranteed answer.
JMHO.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
quote:leighbear
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 04:01:44 AM
-Let me start off by saying I completely agree with everyone but there are somethings about the gun laws that I just dont completely get. I will start off by saying I am 18 years old and I am a female. My apartment was broken into about 7 months ago. Immediately I went to the local pawn shop looking at guns. quote:The man there informed me that I could look at the handguns but wasnt able to touch or buy. After that he told me i can buy a rifle (spelling) or shotgun legally.
Once again,TR;....Your NRA has helped to make it IMPOSSIBLE for this young lady to defend herself in the manner YOU suggest...by the way,a,manner any Intelligent person would suggest...
Why do you suppose the NRA cannot see this fact....?
As I am sure you remember fox,I have taught NRA Hunter Safety in 2 states as well as home firearm safety...And for the inexperianced,I believe that ANY handgun is NOT the answer. This from the NRA themselves...If you were assuming that the Hangun was kept loaded I guess we would assume the shotgun was as well. Seems that there would be enough time before a problem to be sure that the shells were in properly.I would assume that there would be SOMEONE ,somewhere to assist themm with at least that much.In a panic,assuming the gun were NOT loaded a newbie it seems would be at a distinct dusadvantage trying to load a wheel gun.Also I personally would side with you on pump guns etc.The newbie should get a short youth type model breakdowm,preferably a double....at short range they aren't gonna get a chance to use all them shots in the pump anyhow.....Handguns are easier to lose track of,make better targets for theives are easily left layin round when friends etc come over......Again we are talkin a newbie here.
I do respect you r opinion but I think personally and as an Instructor that a handgun in untrained hands is an absolute disater waiting to happen...JMHO.....my friend..L.H.
Longhunter: You posted a thoughtful and valid counter-point to my post. I will freely admit that I am not a 'qualified" firearms instructor but wil claim a great deal of wordly experience and quite a lot of formal training I have received (training from the police, my emplooyer firearms instructors, self taught from training sources etc.).
Of course both shotgun and pistol should be loaded and when the owner is near no restrictive devices should be required to be on the gun. But it is not a good idea to have a loaded shotgun laying around with a round in the chamber. I'm sorry, but the vision of that cocked hammer/striker held back from fireing only by the trigger and hopefull the safety is a vision I do not want in my head ESPECIALLY when that shotgun is in the hands of a newbie.
A revolver on the other hand can lay there fully loaded and the hammer is not cocked. No safety is even required because for the revolver to fire, a strong pull must be applied to the trigger which will then not only cock and drop the hammer but the cylinder has to rotate to place the proper round into place for firing. This is a very, very safe arrangement to have for the newbie in that it is a case of pickup gun, point and click. The newbie would have six chances to hit the intruder and at close range I would hope the newbie is not such a lousey shot as to miss.
Also, in most states an 18 yearold can possess a handgun but cannot buy one.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Also, in most states an 18 yearold can possess a handgun but cannot buy one.
This really wouldn't help somebody who couldn't buy a handgun for herself. I think she should be taught how to safely use the shotgun (it's easy to learn) and then there would be no problem with the whole "18 year old having a handgun... legal, illegal(?)" problem. I fear that somebody was right that the NRA helped make the "handgun" age 21.
Also, can anybody verify, in Pennsylvania, can you legally own a handgun at 18, or does it have to belong to your parents?
Good points as well my friend,I will just say that I Still think a handgun in a newbies hands is not a good thing....The blow for that shotgun to go off with the hammer down would be great,assuming it was in the condition it shold be.I for one would not want a panicked person snapping 6 rounds to god knows where....I still stand with the the shotgun....Thats OK ,not the first time we have disagreed tho eh?[:)],L.H.
I think this circular argument between shotgun vs. handgun is unnecessary. In my opinion, if a newbie is going to use any firearm for self-defense then they should personally fire a minimum of 500 rounds through it before they rely on it in a defense situation. This means at least two solid weeks at the range with that weapon, hopefully with an instructor or expert nearby.
Even as a somewhat experienced firearms owner, I would not use a gun for home defense unless I had personally fired 500 rounds through it and I could comfortably load/unload it by touch and feel. My newest gun is a Marlin 1894c in .357 Magnum. With an 18.5" barrel and pistol caliber, I have heard some folks recommend it as a "home defense rifle". It handles great and is remarkably light and easy to aim, but I just don't feel quite comfy with it yet. I have put about 300 rounds through it, I figure 200 more and maybe I will trust it with my life.
If a shooter is more comfortable with their shotgun then I say go with it. If they are more comfortable with a .38 snubby, then go with that. If they are not comfortable with any firearm, then they may be better off with a Louisville Slugger until they get more proficient with their firearm.
JMHO,
WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
WW,I agree,One should definatly know How and WHen to use a firearm in self defense.You like fire arms to put it mildly,so do most of us here.A newbie or other I do not than floks such as yourself will most likely NEVER put 500 rounds =thru their firearm.Thats the reality of what we face as instructors,some will become hunters,some target shooters,and many plain jane gunowners that go shoot once in a while.In a perfect world it would be more like you describe,but its sure not perfect is it?
Anyhow ,just where was the argument?trfox and I simply disagree and each are stateing why..thats NOT an argument my friend,That is a DISCUSSION...[:)]....L.H.
Fair enough, longhunter. 100 rounds a week is all I ask.
[:)]
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
As for the 18 year old girl, and home protection. She can NOT legally buy a handgun. She CAN legally buy a shotgun. She should stay within the law, ESPECIALLY if she was to ever have to use whatever she had. Case closed. LOL
WW,
I agree with your statement about putting rounds through which-ever gun you choose. But the reality of the situation is that MOST people will not do that. I am talking about a VERY large percentage of people here, probably 90-95 %. For whatever reason they choose to give you, they do not go to the range and become familiar with their piece. There are the phony reasons like "not enough time" to the moderate reasons like "ammo cost" to the valid ones like " lack of places to shoot." One time to the range to see if it "works" is more than some people will do. I try to explain the reasons for becoming familiar with their firearm, but is seems like I am beating my head against a wall, at times. There are WAY too many people out there with guns they are not familiar with.
Pickenup, you are probably right. I suppose there are a lot of "laypeople" gun owners out there. Folks who buy or inherit a firearm thinking that "one day" they will learn how to use it, or that they will hang onto it "just in case". Then the gun sits in the garage or attic and gets all rusted until one day the grandkids are cleaning out the house and find it. Then they turn it over to the cops to be destroyed because they have been so brainwashed against firearms. If only grandpa had polished up that gun and taken the kids out to the range for an afternoon of shooting, maybe they would be passing that gun down as a family heirloom instead of a "dangerous weapon".
I have had the fortune of being around active and experienced gun owners, so 100 rounds a week, or 500 rounds over a couple of weeks isn't out of the question. I used to pay $200 a year for my range membership, so I felt obligated to go to the range at least once a week. I guess that is unfortunately not the case for most shooters.
Sig P228 = $700
Annual range fee = $200
100 rounds 9mm = $12
4 silhouette targets = $2
An hour of blowing off steam at the range after work = PRICELESS
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
True that federal law mandates 21 as the minimum age for buying a handgun and some state laws probably also match that. But I believe in most states a parent for examaple can buy the handgun as a gift and legally give it to the 18 yearold and that person can legally own and possess it. I haven't researched this just going from memory so if I am wrong would someone please correct me by using their own data or good opinion?
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
fox,as I read thru this again,I keep coming up with the following.Remember all those scenarios that you would post as to the possibilities of Prosecution however innocent things seemed to be?It seems that this would allmost fir.This girl would get a handgun thru her folks or other means and possibly defend herself with it at some point....It would seem that the handgun hating media would try her in public before she ever got anywhere.An underage with a handgun!Quick another Loophole!let us quickly pass ANOTHER LAW to close this one!
Gret her a coach gun.they are short,easy handling,legal for her to own,easy to learn.......etc..anyhow,last post on this one my friend....I think......L.H.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Comments
...and for the NRA bashers, how about this analogy:
Gun Owners = United States
NRA = Soviet Union
Brady Campaign = Nazi Germany
How about we concentrate on the Nazis first, eh?
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Sorry fox,gotta agree with the shotgun thing also,It is in my opinion the best self defense arm available,even a 38 has more penetration than a shotgun inside a room....And How bout how LONG it takes an inexperianced person to load one?
A handgun takes MUCH more practice profiancy wise as well...tho at those ranges you still must be proficciant.....Still if you were an intruder would you not think about that shotgun staring at you ?Even the gangs of the west all feared one thing over all...The shotgun.Just my opinion....L.H.
With a pump shotgun it becomes a matter of hope the newie hasn't been playing with the gun and accidently loaded the shells in backwards. Then when the threat is coming down the hall and the newbie has forgotten to click off the safety the newbie is standing there with a worthless gun wondering why the damn thing won't shoot and solve the threat. Or, maybe the newbie picked up the shotgun when the safety was already off and under stress clicked the safety ON and now wonders why the shotgun won't fire. Or maybe the newbie cycled the action on an empty magazine and now the action is locked in battery and the newbie loads the magazine not reallizing that, even though the action is locked possibley indicating a loaded chamber, the action is really loocked on an empty chamber and when trigger is pulled (at the last second?) there will be a "click" instead of a "bang". Or maybe the shotgun is loaded properly, with an empty chamber, and when the threat comes down the hallway the newbie, under stress, shortcycles the action and causes a jam.
For ANY newbie, a revolver and point and click is the only guaranteed answer.
JMHO.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 04:01:44 AM
-Let me start off by saying I completely agree with everyone but there are somethings about the gun laws that I just dont completely get. I will start off by saying I am 18 years old and I am a female. My apartment was broken into about 7 months ago. Immediately I went to the local pawn shop looking at guns. quote:The man there informed me that I could look at the handguns but wasnt able to touch or buy. After that he told me i can buy a rifle (spelling) or shotgun legally.
Once again,TR;....Your NRA has helped to make it IMPOSSIBLE for this young lady to defend herself in the manner YOU suggest...by the way,a,manner any Intelligent person would suggest...
Why do you suppose the NRA cannot see this fact....?
I do respect you r opinion but I think personally and as an Instructor that a handgun in untrained hands is an absolute disater waiting to happen...JMHO.....my friend..L.H.
Of course both shotgun and pistol should be loaded and when the owner is near no restrictive devices should be required to be on the gun. But it is not a good idea to have a loaded shotgun laying around with a round in the chamber. I'm sorry, but the vision of that cocked hammer/striker held back from fireing only by the trigger and hopefull the safety is a vision I do not want in my head ESPECIALLY when that shotgun is in the hands of a newbie.
A revolver on the other hand can lay there fully loaded and the hammer is not cocked. No safety is even required because for the revolver to fire, a strong pull must be applied to the trigger which will then not only cock and drop the hammer but the cylinder has to rotate to place the proper round into place for firing. This is a very, very safe arrangement to have for the newbie in that it is a case of pickup gun, point and click. The newbie would have six chances to hit the intruder and at close range I would hope the newbie is not such a lousey shot as to miss.
Also, in most states an 18 yearold can possess a handgun but cannot buy one.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Also, in most states an 18 yearold can possess a handgun but cannot buy one.
This really wouldn't help somebody who couldn't buy a handgun for herself. I think she should be taught how to safely use the shotgun (it's easy to learn) and then there would be no problem with the whole "18 year old having a handgun... legal, illegal(?)" problem. I fear that somebody was right that the NRA helped make the "handgun" age 21.
Also, can anybody verify, in Pennsylvania, can you legally own a handgun at 18, or does it have to belong to your parents?
Even as a somewhat experienced firearms owner, I would not use a gun for home defense unless I had personally fired 500 rounds through it and I could comfortably load/unload it by touch and feel. My newest gun is a Marlin 1894c in .357 Magnum. With an 18.5" barrel and pistol caliber, I have heard some folks recommend it as a "home defense rifle". It handles great and is remarkably light and easy to aim, but I just don't feel quite comfy with it yet. I have put about 300 rounds through it, I figure 200 more and maybe I will trust it with my life.
If a shooter is more comfortable with their shotgun then I say go with it. If they are more comfortable with a .38 snubby, then go with that. If they are not comfortable with any firearm, then they may be better off with a Louisville Slugger until they get more proficient with their firearm.
JMHO,
WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Anyhow ,just where was the argument?trfox and I simply disagree and each are stateing why..thats NOT an argument my friend,That is a DISCUSSION...[:)]....L.H.
[:)]
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
As for the 18 year old girl, and home protection. She can NOT legally buy a handgun. She CAN legally buy a shotgun. She should stay within the law, ESPECIALLY if she was to ever have to use whatever she had. Case closed. LOL
WW,
I agree with your statement about putting rounds through which-ever gun you choose. But the reality of the situation is that MOST people will not do that. I am talking about a VERY large percentage of people here, probably 90-95 %. For whatever reason they choose to give you, they do not go to the range and become familiar with their piece. There are the phony reasons like "not enough time" to the moderate reasons like "ammo cost" to the valid ones like " lack of places to shoot." One time to the range to see if it "works" is more than some people will do. I try to explain the reasons for becoming familiar with their firearm, but is seems like I am beating my head against a wall, at times. There are WAY too many people out there with guns they are not familiar with.
The gene pool needs chlorine.
I have had the fortune of being around active and experienced gun owners, so 100 rounds a week, or 500 rounds over a couple of weeks isn't out of the question. I used to pay $200 a year for my range membership, so I felt obligated to go to the range at least once a week. I guess that is unfortunately not the case for most shooters.
Sig P228 = $700
Annual range fee = $200
100 rounds 9mm = $12
4 silhouette targets = $2
An hour of blowing off steam at the range after work = PRICELESS
-WW
"...That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state."
-The Debates in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Virginia, on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution. June 27, 1788.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Gret her a coach gun.they are short,easy handling,legal for her to own,easy to learn.......etc..anyhow,last post on this one my friend....I think......L.H.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"