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HeHeHe, I've Got You anti-NRA People Now!
tr fox
Member Posts: 13,856
You can try to dodge the bullet on this one, but I've got you anti-NRA people now!
For a long time I have been unable to understand why pro-gun people, especially ones who belong to other pro-gun organizations, would continuelly go on and on about how litte worth the NRA has to the gun rights movement. I have wondered this because the different pro-gun groups fighting for our rights need every bit of help and support they can get. And they don't get much. So I have been bothered by the fact that some posters would spend time and effort disparaging the NRA. Because that disparaging harms and detracts from what little support the NRA DOES receive. (64 million gun owners in America, less than 4 million NRA members, 650,000 GOA members, etc). But when I have pressed different anti-NRA posters as to why they don't save their time and energy and work FOR the GOA (just one example) and not waste that time and energy working AGAINST the NRA, some of the answers I have gotten finally do not seem to be logical.
Those answers have been basically that the anti-NRA posters wanted to alert the unknowing about the many faults and betrayals of the NRA. And usually they went on to say they were doing that so that the members of the NRA would force reform from within.
Well, here is the flaw in that logic I just discovered.
Many of the anti-NRA postings I have read have been strongly worded to the effect the NRA is beyond saving. But if those posters actually DO think the NRA is worth saving, if that saving is done by the current NRA members, then WHY aren't they a member so that they could be one of the members who was working to reform the NRA?
I don't think anyone can have it both ways. Even if we agree that the NRA is flawed and needs reform, why aren't those critics working within the NRA to cause those reforms? Rather than stand outside a glass house throwing rocks and breaking even more windows, why aren't those critics inside the house trying to repair it so that it is not a blight in the neighborhood.
I guess what I am saying is that if you have lost faith in the NRA (and all pro-gun groups) and think they might as well be disbanded, and you and I have debated this thought, then you and I have taken our debate as far as we can and probably pretty well understand and respect each other's position.
But if you claim that the NRA is just seriously flawed and needs reform, why don't you either stiffle your criticism so as to not harm the NRA, or failing that, be a member of the NRA working for and pushing for reform from inside. Instead of outside throwing those darn rocks?
(P.S. I don't think anyone has my home address, so I should be fairly safe posting this, PLUS I *DID NOT* mention anyone by name [:)][:D]
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
For a long time I have been unable to understand why pro-gun people, especially ones who belong to other pro-gun organizations, would continuelly go on and on about how litte worth the NRA has to the gun rights movement. I have wondered this because the different pro-gun groups fighting for our rights need every bit of help and support they can get. And they don't get much. So I have been bothered by the fact that some posters would spend time and effort disparaging the NRA. Because that disparaging harms and detracts from what little support the NRA DOES receive. (64 million gun owners in America, less than 4 million NRA members, 650,000 GOA members, etc). But when I have pressed different anti-NRA posters as to why they don't save their time and energy and work FOR the GOA (just one example) and not waste that time and energy working AGAINST the NRA, some of the answers I have gotten finally do not seem to be logical.
Those answers have been basically that the anti-NRA posters wanted to alert the unknowing about the many faults and betrayals of the NRA. And usually they went on to say they were doing that so that the members of the NRA would force reform from within.
Well, here is the flaw in that logic I just discovered.
Many of the anti-NRA postings I have read have been strongly worded to the effect the NRA is beyond saving. But if those posters actually DO think the NRA is worth saving, if that saving is done by the current NRA members, then WHY aren't they a member so that they could be one of the members who was working to reform the NRA?
I don't think anyone can have it both ways. Even if we agree that the NRA is flawed and needs reform, why aren't those critics working within the NRA to cause those reforms? Rather than stand outside a glass house throwing rocks and breaking even more windows, why aren't those critics inside the house trying to repair it so that it is not a blight in the neighborhood.
I guess what I am saying is that if you have lost faith in the NRA (and all pro-gun groups) and think they might as well be disbanded, and you and I have debated this thought, then you and I have taken our debate as far as we can and probably pretty well understand and respect each other's position.
But if you claim that the NRA is just seriously flawed and needs reform, why don't you either stiffle your criticism so as to not harm the NRA, or failing that, be a member of the NRA working for and pushing for reform from inside. Instead of outside throwing those darn rocks?
(P.S. I don't think anyone has my home address, so I should be fairly safe posting this, PLUS I *DID NOT* mention anyone by name [:)][:D]
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Comments
As you know,TR.,I have done my time in the trenches..trying to reform the nra.Have given up,As you know.
I no longer believe that begging politicians to obey the Constitution is productive...on any level.
The money wasted on the NRA politicing..good money sent in by trusting,decent people..would far better be spent on precious metals...Gold.Silver.and lead.I believe that money is a tremendous drain on resources..better spent buying a Berkefeld water filter...just in case.
I am a life member...just about to break even,for the cost of the magazine they send out...
Ask yourself one question.." Why must I,a Soverign Citizen of these united states of America,bounded by the Constitution and Bill of Rights...continually beg some slimy politician to OBEY THE CONSTITUTION...????? "
At this late stage...far better to allow them to think they have won...and legislate some really heavy,sweeping gun laws.Then,my friend...and only then...will we find out if there are any men left in America.
Far better to give the nation's half-men another way out by changing attitudes, fighting unjust laws and govt. actions, fighting to keep and expand our rights, etc. than to find out that we are a nation of half-men and unable to really fight when the time comes that you refer to.
JMHO.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
I,myself,am willing to throw the dice.'Tis far better to live 30 moments on your feet then 100 years on your knees...and we are on our knees today.
We beg for drivers license..(around here,one can wait in line for an hour..)we beg to be allowed to travel,we beg to build a dog house..we send in 65 % of what we earn..we beg to be let alone to live the life our Constitution guarantees us...I could go on and on and on..but you get the picture.
A lot of this stuff does not come across the net the way a discussion in person would...and it is surely difficult to take the detours that sometimes are needed to complete a discussion.
Once again..there is absolutely no chance of succeeding unless we get a massive new gun bill,or something that enrages enough people to get them off the dead az*...
________________________________________________________________________
Before they can convince you that rights emanate from them (the government), they must first eliminate God. They are working 24/7 to accomplish this.
"If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace" -Thomas Paine
If the people have become so apathetic that they will not vote out all the liberal scum (republican and democrat alike), the only solution is Constitutional Convention II the sequel. Let's get it right this time.
[:D]
[:D]
I will, since I am guilty of the accusations you state. As I have said before, I do not want people to BLINDLY follow any pro-gun group. Sending in your yearly dues, and then not following up on what the group is doing, is almost as bad as not joining in the first place. We are the watchdogs, here to keep them in line. If we don't, who will???
Oh and I AM a card carrying member of the NRA.
Expires 10/06 [:0]
Kind of shoots that one down, dosn't it. [B)]
I want people to HELP me change from within.
They can not help change, what they don't know to be wrong.
The gene pool needs chlorine.
I don't see the NRA as broken although our two party political system is. Especially in regards to the so-called AWB expiring, the name of the NRA has been in the news a lot. It has also been mentioned in a disparinging way by many anti-gun people, politicals and those in the media. If I had just fallen out of the sky and was exposed to all that, I would have to be very, very convinced that the NRA is doing SOMETHING right. Let's give it a chance and leave it alone.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Actually....somebody has to be point man.I merely point to what MUST happen..if you guys fail in your quest to 'Reform NRA'..and get some rollbacks of the insane mishmash of gun laws in this 'free country..'
Believe me when I say I pray every night you 'get her done'..the aternitive is just too terrible to contemplate.,.[xx(]
You yourself admit that you look at thing from a different perspective..so I and a few more have been successful..in OUR quest...
I am unable to carry on a 'modulated,calm voiced' discussion..freedom being too dear to me,and blood still running hot in my veins..so I am not the man to be contacting the NRA,the slimy politicians..and trying to change policy..
TrFox is a man that can handle that....and we need more like he and you....
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
I know what you're saying, but there are increasingly more people by the day that are insisting on taking the Blue Pill, and are realizing, very quickly, that now, they can never come back.
The Red Pill, the liberal drug, as I will call it here, allows those who take it to be put in ethical stasis, and they are merely amused with the life they lead, and feel they are doing a good thing every time they take the drug. This is leading to a drug problem which is catching up with the rest of those who have taken neither pill.
The Blue Pill, the dose of reality as I will describe it here, allows those who take it to only require ONE pill, and they are on their way to recovery. It will begin counteracting the Red Pill the minute it is taken, and refuse to allow any more Blue Pills from infecting the host.
Now for my point: Most of those posting here in this forum are fed up with following the law, because they are realizing it isn't about the Law, it's about the inalienable right acknowledged, not granted, by the 2nd Amendment. I believe fighting the system is a good thing all by itself, because this is determining what our power elite are going to do and what we can expect of them, and quite honestly, I'd rather they were not actively hunting me or any other gun owner,
That is all.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
Nice rant.
PJ
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
You can try to dodge the bullet on this one, but I've got you anti-NRA people now!
For a long time I have been unable to understand why pro-gun people, especially ones who belong to other pro-gun organizations, would continuelly go on and on about how litte worth the NRA has to the gun rights movement. I have wondered this because the different pro-gun groups fighting for our rights need every bit of help and support they can get. And they don't get much. So I have been bothered by the fact that some posters would spend time and effort disparaging the NRA. Because that disparaging harms and detracts from what little support the NRA DOES receive. (64 million gun owners in America, less than 4 million NRA members, 650,000 GOA members, etc). But when I have pressed different anti-NRA posters as to why they don't save their time and energy and work FOR the GOA (just one example) and not waste that time and energy working AGAINST the NRA, some of the answers I have gotten finally do not seem to be logical.
Those answers have been basically that the anti-NRA posters wanted to alert the unknowing about the many faults and betrayals of the NRA. And usually they went on to say they were doing that so that the members of the NRA would force reform from within.
Well, here is the flaw in that logic I just discovered.
Many of the anti-NRA postings I have read have been strongly worded to the effect the NRA is beyond saving. But if those posters actually DO think the NRA is worth saving, if that saving is done by the current NRA members, then WHY aren't they a member so that they could be one of the members who was working to reform the NRA?
I don't think anyone can have it both ways. Even if we agree that the NRA is flawed and needs reform, why aren't those critics working within the NRA to cause those reforms? Rather than stand outside a glass house throwing rocks and breaking even more windows, why aren't those critics inside the house trying to repair it so that it is not a blight in the neighborhood.
I guess what I am saying is that if you have lost faith in the NRA (and all pro-gun groups) and think they might as well be disbanded, and you and I have debated this thought, then you and I have taken our debate as far as we can and probably pretty well understand and respect each other's position.
But if you claim that the NRA is just seriously flawed and needs reform, why don't you either stiffle your criticism so as to not harm the NRA, or failing that, be a member of the NRA working for and pushing for reform from inside. Instead of outside throwing those darn rocks?
(P.S. I don't think anyone has my home address, so I should be fairly safe posting this, PLUS I *DID NOT* mention anyone by name [:)][:D]
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
If nobody seen you do it, how could you have done it. NRA Endowment Member, AF&AM
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Been busy it took a bit for me to get on this,sorry. Anyway ,fox....When our very FOUNDERS of this great Nation got to the point that it just were'nt workin what did they do? We stand outside here,educating,opening eyes,and HOW many times have we said(I said) that IF things changed that we would be back?We my friend have ALLREADY tried to change it.And so now we attempt to educate and hope that some out there hear the message,and they make others hear it ,and they others and the people from within manage to effect that change.I have invited yourself and other members to advise the NRA of just how many of us are out here...You would think that it would be concerning to them.We are not just a couple of spoiled kids that walked away from the sandbox...There are MANY of us out here...On another note ,on PBS last week,they had the Director of GOA on.....Hmmm,AND they stated the Gun Owners of America's NO COMPROMISE attitude right on National TV. The lady representing the nRA got More publicity of course but None the less GOA was right out there...With NATIONAL tv viewers getting the message perhaps it is time that the NRA took note of the trend that is happening here,AND that the NRA members could go a long way towards helping them to recognize it....We wait,and educate...in the wings.....Hoping,praying...that they and America WAKE UP!
L.H.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
If they ever oppose all unconstitutional bans, I may start supporting them again.
I think NRA got its wake up call and began catering to the true gun owners (many hunters are on the wrong side of the political fence, unfortunately), but, yeah, I would like to see the wall get torn down and roll all the laws bac, because they aren't worth a damn.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
Granted the NRA used to do some good, but now its just another money grubbing Organization, Show me some Legislation they have changed or overturned in the last ten years, I dont want to see the freaking compromises they have made..Show me actual legislation....Law number, Bill number, anything that they have actually changed for the good of the Gun Owner, Instead of paying the top people 500,000.00 a year
Show me this, prove they have actually done something, and maybe my mind could be changed..However I got the same old crap from them.."That isnt my department" and they cant name any bills that they have changed..
Untill proven otherwise,, the NRA SUCKS.........
However the simple fact is that the NRA has been on the wrong side of a lot of the issues. From 1934 to 1986, they have surrendered my rights without doing much to save them.
The two extremes define the middle.
Liberal compassion inhibits progress.........think Republican and prosper!
I've been writing letters to them for 25-30 years,and watching all this unfold......We would be much stronger UNITED....however,the road goes both ways,you build a bridge from 2 directions etc etc etc....We are here,ready to support ....where are they? Defending our rights....maybe...compromising them away more likely.Still we have survived somewhat to fight another day.Gunowners are much like the general population voters,most do not vote...If the general voters got out and voted and voted third party it would be a tremendous wakeup call...there are enough out there to oust anyone.Problem is they will not do it...There are enough gunowners to pretty much do likewise...Problem is the nra is doing little to get them united...JMHO......L.H.
The damn bill was dead when I went to bed. The next day it was on it's way to Clinton!
Could it be cause the NRA was in on the 92 Gun Ban done in the middle of the night as well as Ruger and Bob Dole?
The damn bill was dead when I went to bed. The next day it was on it's way to Clinton!
S-o-o-, you're saying that the NRA leadership was/is not only working against gun owners and their rights but DID IT IN AN OPEN AND INCREDIBLE STUPID MANNER?
I doubt it because if they really were that stupid then the NRA would have quit existing a long, long time ago.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
quote:Originally posted by Muffinman
Could it be cause the NRA was in on the 92 Gun Ban done in the middle of the night as well as Ruger and Bob Dole?
The damn bill was dead when I went to bed. The next day it was on it's way to Clinton!
S-o-o-, you're saying that the NRA leadership was/is not only working against gun owners and their rights but DID IT IN AN OPEN AND INCREDIBLE STUPID MANNER?
I doubt it because if they really were that stupid then the NRA would have quit existing a long, long time ago.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
Just a thought friend.....The politicians in Washington don't seem to get thrown out....and the NRA is a political machine.....
The NRA....Cincinnati Reforms.
Neal Knox tried to make the NRA accountable for their actions..and make the organization count.The Old Guard beat him....
S-o-o-, you're saying that the NRA leadership was/is not only working against gun owners and their rights but DID IT IN AN OPEN AND INCREDIBLE STUPID MANNER?
I doubt it because if they really were that stupid then the NRA would have quit existing a long, long time ago.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
[/quote]
What I said was they were making deals in the back room! The word compromise was being thrown all over the place. Problem with that is the Democrates brought nothing to the table like always. The NRA went along with it.
Why do you think NRA memembership went down while GOA went way up? The whole damn think stunk to high heaven. When you start giving up rights of other people for profit or gain, You can goto hell!
The NRA only has less than 4 million members even though there are well over 64 million gun owners in America. And considering what the NRA has to try and do, it does it with not a whole lot of income or money to work with. In spite of these weaknesses, the NRA does the best it can.
Rather than hating the NRA and saying in effect it can "go to hell" I myself would wish more members and money for ALL pro-gun groups; the NRA, GOA, etc. We pro-gun people have too few friends or organzations working for us as it is.
But if you want to react out of childish anger, and act like you want to take your ball and go home, then that certainly is your choice. But in so doing, you are acting more like one of the anti-gun people than a pro-gun person.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
As I have said before, the NRA, nor any pro-gun group, does not OWN your gun rights and therefore it is and has been impossible for them to "give" your rights away. All those groups can do is fight in the way they know best to try and SLOW your loss of gun rights. It is regretable that anyone has to be kicking ANY one of those groups while they are working trying to help pro-gun people. The NRA in particular get more than enough such kicking from the anti-gun groups and politicians.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
You fight valiently.A lost cause,my friend.
The gun bans ARE COMING..and 'slowing them down' is the single worst thing we can do.The MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars sqandered by 1000 buck suited men is money wasted..that money could better be spent in more practical pusuits.
They got the message after that. Not one politician wants to bring it back-up for a vote, knowing they could be next to hit the road looking for new job!
Now, tell me exactly where are all these pro-gun rights voters are when you ask them for a lousy $20.00 to become a dues paying member of the GOA or with a $10.00 discount paying $25.00 to become a dues paying member of the NRA? I live it and I work it and I do it. Only a small percentage of gun owners will do even the smallest act to try and help keep their gun rights. The vast majority of gun oweners are too lazy, too cheap and too stupid to actually do anything to actually work together to help ourselves.
There are over 64 million gun owners in America. Yet only about 5-6 million people spend any money or time to be a member of any gun rights organization. This means anytime you read/hear any person criticizing how things are done that criticzing is PROBABLY coming from a LAZY * WHO DOES NOTHING BUT COMPLAIN!
Take it or leave it. Those of you who have earned the right to complain know who you are. The others can bite me!
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
TR;
'Ol friend..you are putting your finger on the problem now.I wish I had an answer that was politically correct.....[:(]
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
NRA Life Member (Since JAN 1966)
VSSA Life Member
American Legion Life Member
Fleet Reserve Association Member
[:D] Every time I shoot I hit something [:D] Leo Carrillo as "Pancho" in The Cisco Kid TV Series [:)]
Every time that I read about another "compromise" (surrender) that the NRA has encouraged, I become more and more disappointed. I do give my money to the GOA. I'm supporting a group I like. My NRA membership that I naively bought last year expires November. I already got some letters/emails saying I should rejoin. I plan to send some of the letters back. Instead of enclosing a check, I will include a brief note saying that I'd love to join, but I need to save my money so I can get a "pre-ban" MP5K for $13,000 that they helped outlaw with the FOPA of 1986.
whats ironic is that the NRA has a machine gun shoot every year in oklahoma. If i was a magalomaniac i might thing it was just to rub it in my face that when i get out of the service in 2011 ill have to choose between buying a house and a select fire AR-15, assuming that the GCA is not further 'tightened' up.
A socialist libertarian praying to god for constitutional reform and an end to the two party system