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What is really guaranteed by Amendment II?

gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
A Well-Regulated Militia, Being Necessary for the Security of a Free State, the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms, Shall Not Be Infringed.

Ok, the most obvious one is to keep and bear arms. But to what extent? Without a doubt, rifles, pistols and shotguns. But what else? Well, reading it as it is, it does include any wieldable weapon; single shot or belt fed; suppressed, or otherwise; shooting or sharp edged; and I will even go so far as to say flame throwers and grenade launchers, because all of them can be wielded, as well as kept. These are the arms of a standard military force, and as such, should not be disallowed to those of us who are "just citizens" because "we don't need them". This goes into a lengthy discussion of pros and cons of gun laws, and I am not going to debate it, simply because I know I am right on this, and any creative perversion of Amendment II has not a shred of truth to it.

But what else? Did any of you guys notice the comma between "Arms" and "Shall"? Whenever you see a comma, it is to denote a series or continuation... whichever fits the profile. Consider the Amendment broken down into two separate Sub-Amendments:

"A Well-Regulated Militia, Being Necessary for the Security of a Free State, Shall Not Be Infringed." or to shorten it out, since the first comma is a continuation, rather than a series, "A Well-Regulated Militia Shall Not Be Infringed."

"The Right of the people to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not Be Infringed."

There you have it. Some of you might argue that the First Amendment covers Peacable assemblies, but this is not an assembly of people. It is the mobilization of citizens to stand up against foreign or domestic threats. The organization of people is considered a necessary function, as per "Being Necessary for the Security of a Free State", and the organization of a fighting force is hardly peacable, and in fact is the opposite.

This is why our feds and gov't officials on all levels try to turn the meaning of "Militia" into something that equivalates out to "Terrorist", and without ceasing tries its hardest to breed distrust into the hearts of people, so that they will not form militias, and will rally against the rights of others in a form of gov't that technically shouldn't exist, and that is a democracy.

The minute the militia is discredited, the 2nd Amendment will fall.

Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39

Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
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Comments

  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That's a good start but I think you can go alot further with this. I like what you say about the commas and how they may apply today. I think you may be on to something here but, most assuredly, there are many different ways of interpretation. Why should your's be the one that is "right"? I'm on your side, I believe that what you pen is true but, as I said, I think you can take it alot further with your premise.

    We haven't really had a thread that breaks down the second amendment and this is a most interesting twist. Do we have any english professors here? I, for one, am about the worst when it comes to punctuation so I can only assume what you say is correct. I sure would like to see the different ways this sentence can be broken down and perhaps there is help lying in the remainder of the original "10" that will help to frame the puntuation techniques of our forefathers. Interesting thread, go with it.


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    First,
    'well regulated militia, being neccessary for the security of a Free State'.

    The Militia was made up of Armed Americans that were not paid nor issued rifles, they used their own firearms and bullets until called upon for Federal Service. The National Guard (formerly called militia until about 1910) were not even paid until around the 1950's. The National Guard is now Federalized, see 10 US Code and weep. Therefor Congress, the Media, nor the Supreme Court can ever say 'Militia' means State military...there are NONE. Therefor it has always meant and still means...the People.

    Second,
    'The Right of the PEOPLE to Keep and Bear Arms, Shall not be infringed'

    Congress has been infringing upon that Amendment via the Commerce Clause...thus using Taxation to infringe a Constitutional Amendment.

    1. Could you imagine charging a $100 Tax Stamp from all women to vote?
    2. How about allowing Freedom of Speech but charging $5 for a Permit which is only good for 3 years to practice that Right?

    Defining Arms...you can't. The law says you can't buy a double barrel shotgun that fires both barrels post 1986....it's now considered a machine gun- fires more than one shot with one pull of the trigger. Stupidddd.

    Some whacko can make a thermo nuclear bomb, dirt bomb, anthrax, cyanide, explosives....in his garage and Federal Law does not keep him from making whatever he wants to use against the American people. Federal Law only prohibits law abiding people from self defense and securing our States/Nation.

    If you want to buy a Russian MIG fighter you can pick one up for less than a new BMW. What is more a deadly weapon....grenade launcher....Russian MIG, any aircraft, or a car for that matter.

    A 37mm grenade launcher...used to be able to buy pathetic bird bombs to scare the crows out of the fields...not anymore. Need a special permit from ATFE now. A Kia Rio has killed more people than a birdbomb...matter of fact a birdbomb has never killed anyone....but they still took the opportunity to ban them post Oklahoma City Bombing....via the Commerce Clause...taxation of products to control interstate commerce. Legally you should be able to make your own fireworks, birdbombs...but you can't.

    And to think we got pizzed off a few years ago over a tea tax.




    http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/No_Justice.htm
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What the constitution doesn't say is our friend. By not indicating any exceptions to weapons that may be owned, there can be no weapons that are banned. It is our perogative to own that which we will. The Commerce Act is illegal in and of itself, it is argumentative and hypocritical. If, by regulating the free trade of a readily available item and by doing so the price is caused to rise to levels not adequately sufficient to sustain free trade then said regulation would be illegal under the Fair Trade and Commerce Act. By regulating machine guns they only managed to artificially inflate the price of a machine gun to levels that no longer promote free trade. Since these items are readily available and legal to purchase, by putting a manufacturers date of eligibility into a restrictive law they have essentially cut the abilities of gun manufacturers to maintain a stable trade as there is nothing different or otherwise causing a post-1986 machine gun to be deemed illegal. This my friends is a direct violation of the second amendment and goes against the very law that was inacted to cover this regulation in the first place. A rather large enigma, to say the least, so how do we make all this work to our advantage? AAhhh, here in lies the rub.

    In order to challenge a law in the lower courts, it must be attached to a criminal or civil proceeding. In other words you can't just walk into court and say, "this is a bad law, I want to challenge it's validity." The lower courts don't make a direct change to laws whereas the Supreme Court does, if the SC says the law is no good, it is no longer a law. If, however, the lower courts decide the same thing then they set precedent. Meaning the other courts in different cases can cite a previous case as holding precedent and may be used as a valid defense. Once a decision is made in a lower court it can always be appealed in any court directly above the first in appeals court, a Supreme Court decision is final. It may be appealed but the odds are not good in having a decision overturned, they would have to overturn their own decision. Has it happened? Yes, but rarely.

    The Supreme Court is ultimately where any gun law case is going to be won or lost and the biggest challenge facing gun owners is getting the SC to hear one of our cases. They have been sitting content on the subject of guns ever since they got a bogus decision, due to default, back in 1939. The government has the SC in their back pocket so getting any positive decision or even them hearing it at all is for the most part, futile. Since the government seems content to take away all peaceful means we have, it only seems to reason that there must be an armed insurrection and this is the only way to get our control back. The funny and sad thing is that we just want control of OUR OWN lives. The government wants control of ALL our lives. Pretty sick and pathetic. This government must go down.


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Comengetit

    I'm glad someone brought up The Commerce Act. Some here may be familiar with this article, some not. You may not feel like reading another long article but it is relative. I included an exeprt to pique you interest.

    The federal government may regulate interstate commerce; it can define crimes that may take place upon federal property; and it can exercise police powers within places that are embraced by the "exclusive legislative control" clause, but it may not do any of that upon land that is under the sovereignty of a state of the Union.

    Congress is free to make any asinine statement it wants about its "intentions" or its "goals", but the text of the laws it enacts must still adhere to the limits of federal power imposed by US Constitution.

    http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2269


    Proud to be an American!
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, you guys are digressing here. This thread is not about the commerce clause, or hypothetical infringements. We all know those exist. I would consider creating a thread depicting the enemies at the gates of freedom, and explain it from that point.

    You guys are right about all of that, but my point is, forget about what laws are made up for infringement purposes, and think about the process to which those laws are created. It is created by people turning on each other; not being able to trust their fellow man with arms; believing the social engineering that assumes all force is unnecessary and barbaric; that only law enforcement and military can be trusted with arms (or not, in some cases); that the meanings of words are being twisted into things that invoke fear in the cowardly hearts of people; that our so called masters willfully lie to the people to get them to believe in inconscionable things.... it's all about us doing what we are polled to do, and led to believe.

    But there is hope. The only problem is, it generally comes at high price, and involves the deaths of many innocents. Sep. 11th and Hurricane Katrina come to mind almost instantly. People are less willing now than ever to believe all that crap, and the pendulum appears to be at rest, ready to swing in the opposite direction.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Let us pray you are right...for it will take a higher power to resolve it without conflict.

    Around here..the news has been filtering out that women especially have been buying guns....and I have been approached by 2 guys at work to train their wives in gun handling.

    Any gun, any time, any place.Subject perhaps to private property..an individual may bar guns from his house...
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I read A thread on another forum about the lack of gun safety at firing ranges from all the new people going out and buying guns. We need to step up, and teach these people how to properly gandle firearms, or there will probally be some accidental shootings, then tide, will start turning back the other direction.

    parabellem
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We have one advantage, people. Once people learn the truth, they rarely go back on it, and tend to teach their kids these truths, once revealed. It isn't as easy as they think, or going as smoothly as they want it to.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,837
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Comengetit
    We haven't really had a thread that breaks down the second amendment and this is a most interesting twist.

    Why make it so damn complicated, and why go through all these grammar hollahoops to come up with what the seconbd amendment "means"?
    It is very simple-the second amendment says that THE GOVERNMENT may not infringe on the right to bear arms.
    To better understand the amendment, one must stop looking at it in the perspective of "what right it guarantees to the people", and instead look at it for what it is, which is "the government is prohibited from involving itself in such manners."

    "Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
    -Jimmy the cheese man
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by salzo
    quote:Originally posted by Comengetit
    We haven't really had a thread that breaks down the second amendment and this is a most interesting twist.

    Why make it so damn complicated, and why go through all these grammar hollahoops to come up with what the seconbd amendment "means"?
    It is very simple-the second amendment says that THE GOVERNMENT may not infringe on the right to bear arms.
    To better understand the amendment, one must stop looking at it in the perspective of "what right it guarantees to the people", and instead look at it for what it is, which is "the government is prohibited from involving itself in such manners."

    "Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
    -Jimmy the cheese man


    I couldn't agree more, unfortunately, we are continuously the victim of someone else's wrongful interpretation. So, I see an advantage in looking at it from all angles. It gives me better ammo with which to shoot down that bad interpretation. If we don't see it coming they may get a leg up in the propaganda war. This amendment in it's simplest terms clearly says: the people (all individual citizens) have a right to keep and bear arms and that right shall not be infringed by anyone or anything, in addition, those who are able bodied and are armed are part of a well regulated militia necessary for the security of a free state against enemies both foreign and domestic. I just don't think it gets any easier than that. Perhaps the verbiage was a little ambiguous because they meant for it to be a trip wire wherein as soon as someone went after it's meaning in a way different than intended, we were to be on our guard.


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    Look at our military today:

    -Many bases/camps/ports have passed local laws prohibiting all servicemen/women from possessing personal firearms.

    -Effective September 2000 Germany passed a law making it illegal for US Servicemen/women to possess private firearms while over there

    -Guam US of frekin A....makes it illegal for US Servicemen/Women to bring private firearms to the US Territory with laws that are not possible to comply with for importation-registration

    ....If the people in our military are giving up the right to self defense while sent around our Country-World....we ain't got a chance.

    -We need our military to turn around against these illegal laws....how the heck can they be fighting for freedom when their very freedom has been getting ripped away.

    Note- after Germany made all US Service Personnel mail via USPS all their firearms back to the US....an Army troop was shot in Germany scraping the ice off of the windshield of his car while trying to get to Camp for PT.

    Our enemies are watching our weakness's flurish.

    http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/No_Justice.htm
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    A point I have been trying to make for years and years...The military men obeying orders...sent all over the world, fighting wars that have NOTHING to do with freedom in America...

    And gutless to fight the steady loss of freedom right here in America...because 'big daddy' ain't giving them orders to do so.
    I speak here not of the "Military"...but the men that come out and return to civilian life....
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Why make it so damn complicated, and why go through all these grammar hollahoops to come up with what the seconbd amendment "means"?
    It is very simple-the second amendment says that THE GOVERNMENT may not infringe on the right to bear arms.
    To better understand the amendment, one must stop looking at it in the perspective of "what right it guarantees to the people", and instead look at it for what it is, which is "the government is prohibited from involving itself in such manners."


    salzo,

    You should know, from past posts, I respect you for your knowledge. In this case, it is not a grammatical twist I put into the 2nd Amendment. It is not an interpretation, either. It is breaking the phrase down to its basic parts, and showing what we have to work with, and why it's failing, now.

    In another thread, one of our members was confused about what "militia" meant, and accepted the gov't Newspeak version of it, which he believed, as many others do, that the term means "terrorist". I guess my point, here is to point out that once the militia has been scratched from the 2nd, once enough people do not want to associate the 2nd with armed resistance (and you know the duck hunters and GWG's believe this, as well), we will all be closer to death, slavery or revolution; whichever history decides.

    I would rather win the soft war, than to fight in the hard war.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    A point I have been trying to make for years and years...The military men obeying orders...sent all over the world, fighting wars that have NOTHING to do with freedom in America...

    And gutless to fight the steady loss of freedom right here in America...because 'big daddy' ain't giving them orders to do so.
    I speak here not of the "Military"...but the men that come out and return to civilian life....


    Any respect for your opinion, any hope I had for you at all has been lost. Your IGNORANCE HAS NEVER been more apparent than with this post. You truly are blind. In the past @30 years anyone who has served in the U. S. Armed Services has done so, VOLUNTARILY. And, before you go there, NOT 100% of them do it for patriot reasons (some ARE looking for that handout, security provided by being in the military). But, for the MOST part, these young MEN and WOMEN are the true Patriots of Freedom. Americans willing to put their lives on the line for what THEY believe in.

    Those BLINDED by the Democratic (Socialist Party of America) agenda do not SEE the relevance of fighting the enemies of this country on their own turf. You will soon get your wish for a war on American soil. It will be a fight for your very own survival. When the Iranians use their EMP missiles against us and this country is catapulted backward 100-150 years, maybe, if you survive, you TO will be awaked. You, obviously, DO NOT stay abreast of current affairs, or, chose to remain aligned with the left. Who has their ring in your nose???

    While they fight and die (for many years, in many theaters of "WAR" over the last just @30 years) the "CIVILIAN" populace has enjoyed the benefit of their sacrifice while leaving the back door WIDE OPEN for socialist reform on our own soil. I can speak for Veterans because I am one, and to the man, the question is: WAS MY SACRIFICE WORTH IT FOR SUCH AN UNGRATFUL SELF-SERVING NATION??

    GUTLESS??? I THINK NOT. It is those who do not serve, those who fail to make the commitment to freedom that are the TRUE cowards. ALL I thought about was honorably serving my country, maintaining NATIONAL SECURITY, spreading the opportunity of OUR freedoms to those who have never even been exposed to such ideas as freedom of speech and then living that AMERICAN DREAM. What a disappointment!!!! Betrayed by the very people (the stay at homes) we sought to protect. If I could get my hands on you right now, I WOULD rip off your head and scat down you windpipe. But, that's what its all about, freedom, freedom of speech, freedom, freedom, freedom. I do not have to agree with you, and I don't.

    Your arsenal could not possibly equal mine, and I, as well as other Vet's, most probably make up your "so called 3%. WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM MEANS!!!!!

    I do welcome an INTELLIGENT response. Otherwise, just rack this up to me expressing MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH.


    Proud to be an American!
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't think past vets are the problem. They were clearly more aware and more informed than the kids we have in combat, now. I have seen an increasing number of them come out of the service, claiming they would have fired on Americans if given the orders to. Still, some wouldn't do it, no matter what, but it used to be that anyone giving an order like that would have had many guns directed at them for being traitors.

    Something to think about....

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by gunphreak
    I don't think past vets are the problem. They were clearly more aware and more informed than the kids we have in combat, now. I have seen an increasing number of them come out of the service, claiming they would have fired on Americans if given the orders to. Still, some wouldn't do it, no matter what, but it used to be that anyone giving an order like that would have had many guns directed at them for being traitors.

    Something to think about....

    The problem is in the UPPER echelon, not to say the on the ground military commandersat this point, who have hopes of expanding their military service for political gain.

    Proud to be an American!
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Well, well, well..touched a nerve, eh WW ?
    Well, good.

    Give me a blast of crap..because you would obey orders to fight in bum fu*** egypt..and allow your own country to be taken over by the Socialists ? Go ahead..hate me.

    Tote a full auto "over there"...come back here and crawl on your belly to get permission to own one here ?
    Fight for 'freedom' for Vietnam..until your political leaders made a better deal...and allow the Supreme Court to decide that YOUR PROPERTY BELONGS TO THE RICHEST BIDDER..????
    The "War I Want"..??? What the hell part of "Freedom" do you not understand...?
    I obeyed orders, too...but I was SMART enough to finally realize what exactly was happening.
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Wagon Wheel
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    A point I have been trying to make for years and years...The military men obeying orders...sent all over the world, fighting wars that have NOTHING to do with freedom in America...

    And gutless to fight the steady loss of freedom right here in America...because 'big daddy' ain't giving them orders to do so.
    I speak here not of the "Military"...but the men that come out and return to civilian life....


    Any respect for your opinion, any hope I had for you at all has been lost. Your IGNORANCE HAS NEVER been more apparent than with this post. You truly are blind. In the past @30 years anyone who has served in the U. S. Armed Services has done so, VOLUNTARILY. And, before you go there, NOT 100% of them do it for patriot reasons (some ARE looking for that handout, security provided by being in the military). But, for the MOST part, these young MEN and WOMEN are the true Patriots of Freedom. Americans willing to put their lives on the line for what THEY believe in.

    Those BLINDED by the Democratic (Socialist Party of America) agenda do not SEE the relevance of fighting the enemies of this country on their own turf. You will soon get your wish for a war on American soil. It will be a fight for your very own survival. When the Iranians use their EMP missiles against us and this country is catapulted backward 100-150 years, maybe, if you survive, you TO will be awaked. You, obviously, DO NOT stay abreast of current affairs, or, chose to remain aligned with the left. Who has their ring in your nose???

    While they fight and die (for many years, in many theaters of "WAR" over the last just @30 years) the "CIVILIAN" populace has enjoyed the benefit of their sacrifice while leaving the back door WIDE OPEN for socialist reform on our own soil. I can speak for Veterans because I am one, and to the man, the question is: WAS MY SACRIFICE WORTH IT FOR SUCH AN UNGRATFUL SELF-SERVING NATION??

    GUTLESS??? I THINK NOT. It is those who do not serve, those who fail to make the commitment to freedom that are the TRUE cowards. ALL I thought about was honorably serving my country, maintaining NATIONAL SECURITY, spreading the opportunity of OUR freedoms to those who have never even been exposed to such ideas as freedom of speech and then living that AMERICAN DREAM. What a disappointment!!!! Betrayed by the very people (the stay at homes) we sought to protect. If I could get my hands on you right now, I WOULD rip off your head and scat down you windpipe. But, that's what its all about, freedom, freedom of speech, freedom, freedom, freedom. I do not have to agree with you, and I don't.

    Your arsenal could not possibly equal mine, and I, as well as other Vet's, most probably make up your "so called 3%. WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM MEANS!!!!!

    I do welcome an INTELLIGENT response. Otherwise, just rack this up to me expressing MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH.


    Proud to be an American!


    What was that all about? I think as it is acceptable for you to express your right to free speech it is also a right shared by Highball. As you seek an intelligent response from him I believe it only prudent that he should expect the same. Saying you would rip off his head and scat down his windpipe, is hardly what I would call an intelligent response. As a matter of fact your entire response was laced with an incredible amount of fire and rage. WWII, you ought not throw stones from aside your glass house. All I'm trying to say is want some, get some! When you so outwardly attack someone like this, it is very difficult for anyone to respond with any kind of an intelligent remark because the thread has now been tainted. Returning to a sort of meaningful banter will now require a few "dead" posts. I'm just trying to keep us all on the same team here. I've got to admit, that last post comes dangerously close to Trolling and we have no use for that here. Being that it is STILL a free country, you may say as you wish, but you must also accept the retorts as they will surely be a bit inflamatory.

    You also make reference to those who have not served as being "TRUE cowards". Can I then assume that since I did not serve that I too am one of your "TRUE cowards?" I should say you may find the going a bit rough were you to make an attempt at my beheading and subsequent depositing of fecal matter down my esophageal airway. I can't see myself taking kindly to the assault and would probably turn the situation around in a pretty big hurry. I really don't care for bullies and if that is what you wish to portray, might I suggest you take it somewhere it might be a little less difficult to assert. If, however, you just have a hard-on for Highball, work it out and move past it.

    I'm not rushing to anyone's defense here, I saw something I didn't much care for and I am making it known. Expressing myself via free speech, if you will or even if you won't. I have no interest in starting over again with you WWII, either take what I am saying as a comment in the direction of a negative opinion and leave it at that or don't. It's your call, but don't let your ego write checks your body can't cash, around every corner in every neighborhood there is always someone bigger and badder than the last street you walked. Threatening members with the removal of body parts and the nastiness that followed is something I will not stand down for, so, want some, get some. I'm right here, otherwise, please refrain from such a taunting and inappropriate tone in this forum.

    They say it only takes one poor choice to disolve the effects of ten virtuous choices. You made a very kind and proper choice when changing your handle and we are all appreciative but you can only live on that for so long, I think the time is up on that gesture. WWII that kind of frontal accosting is just not necessary nor is it welcome. Too bad too, you really have alot of good ideas and concepts, hate to see them washed away in a sea of bitterness. Think about it, words a member once said to me. [;)]


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Thanky kindly, Comengetit....
    However...I been stomping my own snakes for a bunch of years...and Uncle Sam taught me to win every time doing it. Anything less reflects badly on the Corps, don't you know...

    I ignored the threats for a variety of reasons..not the least of which is that there are lots of criminally insane people cruising the internet..and some are smart enough to track a person thru net addresses.
    The result of being tracked down would tend to get messy very quickly...I take a dim view of being stalked. I have no desire to spend time repeating to the police the details of any resultant actions.
    WW is pissed...most good men are when they gradually discover they have been used by the Elites.
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    With all due respect, I was not coming to your rescue as I'm certain you need not of my help. No, this was personal. I just never understand why people have to resort to threats, I saw no justification for this and wanted to make my position known as I exercise my free speech. There are most definitely those that are a brick or two short of a wall but I don't think WWII is one of those, to the contrary, I guess I am just a little disappointed that this kind of post would be made by someone who is obviously quite intelligent and passionate in his beliefs. I guess passion can influence us in many ways.

    To WWII you were obviously upset, as was I, for my outburst I must apologise for this is not how I wish to be viewed by my fellow members. So, I therefore retract my statements with the exception of the 'glass house' comment. That's all I have to say on the matter and will not respond to anything resembling a hook.


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Comengetit;
    Yup...As you are aware, I speak of things that make folks uncomfortable...and expect personal attacks. Lashing out is a way to stop thinking...and thinking is sometimes painfull.

    Of course, I realize you wern't "Coming to my rescue"..but you DO manage to bring folks together..and I didn't want that compromised, just because I once again watered somebodies wheaties.
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yeah, I know your right, I just hate to see it from people with so much to offer.


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Keep it civil.


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,837
    edited November -1
    gunphreak- I did not mean to offend, my post was not really directed to you personally.
    Twisting an contorting the words are necessary for the anti gunners-because the plain words of the second amendment get in the way of their agenda.
    "hmmmmmmmmm(scratching their chin)but who is the militia."
    "well numb nuts, obviously the militia is the people, since the amendment says "the right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."- wouldnt you rather just leave it at that, and not worry about commas, semi colons, blah blah blah?
    Personally, I do not have to go through grammar summersaults just because THEY HAVE TO.

    "Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
    -Jimmy the cheese man
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:gunphreak- I did not mean to offend, my post was not really directed to you personally.
    Twisting an contorting the words are necessary for the anti gunners-because the plain words of the second amendment get in the way of their agenda.
    "hmmmmmmmmm(scratching their chin)but who is the militia."
    "well numb nuts, obviously the militia is the people, since the amendment says "the right of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."- wouldnt you rather just leave it at that, and not worry about commas, semi colons, blah blah blah?
    Personally, I do not have to go through grammar summersaults just because THEY HAVE TO.


    Hey, no offense taken. Well, we are looking at a dumber society than what we used to have. Right around generation x (which is what I am from), we actually saw a body of people come out of school on average less intelligent than their parents. Was this a fluke? Nope. Been going downhill since. I actually think it was intentional.

    But watch out, salzo, since militia and right to keep and bear arms are tied into each other, time to defend both concepts. One leg falls, it's only a matter of time before the rest comes tumbling down.

    Besides, liberals don't do grammatical somersaults, they lie out their @$$...

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.
  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    ""Well, we are looking at a dumber society than what we used to have. Right around generation x (which is what I am from), we actually saw a body of people come out of school on average less intelligent than their parents. ""

    I have to disagree with that. Not all of Gen X are idiots. I am one of only 2 Gen X that joined the military from my school. I made the President's Who's Who list 3 years in a row (top 10% of the country), received a college scholarship. My high school buddies (bottom of the barrel in SAT scores- but lots of common sense) now own their own business's and make more money than the ones that went to college. The Gen X kids in my school that went to college are working for $8 an hour because they can't find jobs in PA.

    I was smart enough to realize Pennsylvania jobs are about gone, few remaining WILL disappear and left the country and became Civil Service working for Uncle Sam. Instead of struggling in PA I will be banking $65k a year starting out.

    I started working at 12 and paying into Social Security at 16. It really pee's me off to hear Generation X is a bunch of retards. TODAY'S Generation needs $40,000-$60,000 to join the military. They refuse to take menial jobs while in school.

    Today's Generation are the real losers.

    http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/No_Justice.htm
  • DefenderDefender Member Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That Second Amendment means what ever the guys with the black robes says it means. No more, no less. If they're wrong and won't fix it we either must create and pass a new amendment to over-ride the court, go to war about it, or shut up.

    Defender
    Private investigator licensed in AZ & CA that specializes in self defense cases.
  • Explorer1Explorer1 Member Posts: 45 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The militia is legalled defined as:

    "(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are-
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. "
    as per TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > ? 311

    So that blows statements about federalizing the milita our of the water.

    The exceptions are listed the next paragraph of the same Chapter:
    (a) The following persons are exempt from militia duty:
    (1) The Vice President.
    (2) The judicial and executive officers of the United States, the several States and Territories, and Puerto Rico.
    (3) Members of the armed forces, except members who are not on active duty.
    (4) Customhouse clerks.
    (5) Persons employed by the United States in the transmission of mail.
    (6) Workmen employed in armories, arsenals, and naval shipyards of the United States.
    (7) Pilots on navigable waters.
    (8) Mariners in the sea service of a citizen of, or a merchant in, the United States.
    (b) A person who claims exemption because of religious belief is exempt from militia duty in a combatant capacity, if the conscientious holding of that belief is established under such regulations as the President may prescribe. However, such a person is not exempt from militia duty that the President determines to be noncombatant

    Now go read the 10th Admendment, that is key to our survival. Now if we could just get the politicans to follow the Consitution as written....
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Now if we could just get the politicans to follow the Consitution as written....

    Wouldn't that be somethin', the politicians actually doing what they SWORE TO GOD they would do, uphold the Constitution of the United States of America! I'm afraid the chances of that happening are Slim and None and 'Slim got the hell out of Dodge'. There will be justice, the only problem is it is going to get real ugly, Tiennamen Square will look like another ordinary day in comparison. My wishes are that we can somehow force the men and women who are the leaders of this abortion we call home to honor their oath and change the direction of this wretched path into the great abyss and steer us towards the promised land. That being the land of truth, justice, honor, happiness, and above all freedom.

    Too many men have died in the name of 'freedom', a term used quite loosely now days, for all of us to stand down as the very freedoms they fought to preserve are slowly, methodicaly flushed into oblivian. The day will come when the call will be heard and you must answer it, for if you do not, the freedoms that will be captured and, once again, preserved will not belong to you. If you want them [freedoms] go out and get them! It is plain to see that they will not be simply granted as promised, no they will have to be restored by the gun.


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:I have to disagree with that. Not all of Gen X are idiots. I am one of only 2 Gen X that joined the military from my school.

    Disagree all you want. Doesn't change the fact that it is the truth. Besides, don't get all defensive. I told you I came from that generation, too, and like you, I am one of the exceptions.

    quote:I made the President's Who's Who list 3 years in a row (top 10% of the country), received a college scholarship.

    Good for you. (and I don't mean this sarcastically, either)

    quote:My high school buddies (bottom of the barrel in SAT scores- but lots of common sense) now own their own business's and make more money than the ones that went to college.

    This was a question of intellect, not one of successfulness. You cannot measure intellect from the salaries they produce or the job they hold. It's that simple.

    quote:I started working at 12 and paying into Social Security at 16. It really pee's me off to hear Generation X is a bunch of retards. TODAY'S Generation needs $40,000-$60,000 to join the military. They refuse to take menial jobs while in school.

    Today's Generation are the real losers.


    In case you got fumed at the first intro of the post, let me reiterate one thing I posted earlier....

    quote:Was this a fluke? Nope. Been going downhill since. I actually think it was intentional.


    Been going downhill, since. The wheels have actually been greased, and before too long, the kids will be exponentially dumber than their parents.

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    USA Today Sports Columnist Responds to NewsBusters Article:

    The "War Chick" response to critics. Did you read her article on Ali? It's on her website. Much more articulate than I.

    http://newsbusters.org/node/2931


    Proud to be an American!
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nice article, Wagon Wheel.

    ...but what does it have to do with the topic?

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.
  • Wagon WheelWagon Wheel Member Posts: 633 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ali and the Medal of Freedom, do not belong in the same sentence. You must have missed the main point of this article. ARE WE NOW HONORING DRAFT DODGERS?? Should you and I be expected to condone such an honor being bestowed on an individual who most certainly has no interest (now or ever) in anything but his own self gradification.

    "Ali was indeed a gifted boxer and athlete. But that does not now nor will it ever make him a hero. He has everything he does because there were men in the past who knew there were things out there bigger and more important than themselves, and they were willing to seal that belief with their youth, their time, and even their lives. THAT is a hero. Ali took what this country had to give, but when asked to help others gain the same freedoms, his answer was a resounding "Not I." That is the epitome of selfishness...he has all he has because of the price others have paid. Never forget that, because apparently, everyone else has."

    What freedoms and rights we have left were secured by the sacrifice and blood of true heros over a 300 year period and find this a travisty of that sacrifice. Hopfully you can figure out how it applies to the topic or make it applicable..


    Proud to be an American!
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    After reading both, the premise and Rena's article I fail to see the correlation. If we were talking about liberties or how unfair our system is, I would definitely get it. As it stands, the article, albeit a good one, doesn't really have anything to do with the 2nd amendment and it's construction. I too am guilty of this for my last post or two have gone astray. Sorry about that Gunphreak, I tend to get a little carried away when that nerve is hit upon. I love to find new ways to * about our government and their shortcomings.

    We can all sit here day after day, night after night, and discuss or rather reiterrate how we are totally against what is happening. We can even offer up solutions but, the bottom line remains the same; When, Where, What, and How, the Who and Why are obvious, will we act upon our dissatisfactions? Do we really hope to solve the problems of the U.S. of A. right here on this little forum? Oh sure, we can wish in one hand and hope in the other but until we strap 'em on and lock and load, we are just going to move ever so slowly into that goodnight when all will be as we have predicted. Yet we have done nothing more than talk about what will happen and how it will be accomplished. One would think with the enemies entire game plan it shouln't be difficult to thwart the aggression and reverse it's course but yet here we sit.

    I'm wondering if the Jewish people of Europe had known, in advance, what Hitler was planning, would they have laid down for him to come and take them? Perhaps they would have put up a fight, a fight that surely they would have lost? And just how would we view the Holocaust? Would it have been a tragic event in our ugly history of the world or would we look at those who knew and think of them as responsible? At the very least, our sympathies would probably not be as great knowing that they let it happen. A simple question in an otherwise complex world.

    I can't help thinking that they [the Jews] would have formulated some type of offensive to stave off the German JBT's and if nothing else they would surely have shot any German soldier who knocked on their door. This would have turned the tables and the entire war. Without Hitler's concentration camps what would he have been fighting for? Sure one can make an argument for world dominance, but Adolf Hitler had a much bigger agenda. His was of world dominance by a perfect race, with Jews killing his soldiers, they could hardly be called perfect. Thus creating a terrible delimma for the German dictator, but they did not know and thus the 6,000,000+ Jews were needlessly murdered.

    I didn't mean for this to turn into a History lesson but, there are similarities involved here and we don't know what the end goal of the Elites may be. We do know that they have been outspoken about subjects such as population control, a one world government, health issues associated with lesser developed nations, and religious wars. Population control kind of bothers me a little, for we know not how they wish to achieve such aims. I'd be just a little more than concerned that the way of the Third Reich may have more than a small effect upon the end goal. The ONLY way this can be achieved in America is to get the guns out of the hands of the people. If these dumb snits only knew half of what we are able to bring to bear, they may realize that any such attack on the American people is nothing short of suicide. With such wonderful publications out there as The Anarchist's Cookbook and Assorted Nasties, to name just a couple, we have at our disposal all of those horrific weapons that they possess and all of the factories and machinery with which to build their delivery systems. Surely they are aware of this and to attempt any kind of genocidal cleansing would again be suicidal.

    Back to the premise of this thread, it is very possible to disect the 2nd amdendment and ultimately come up with just about anything you want it to say but, does it even matter what it says if we don't know, for certain, what the end goal is? I mean are the guns what they really are after or is this just a diversionary tactic designed to keep us off the trail of the more wicked and insidious plan aimed at our ultimate demise? One must admit, if there were to be a country where only the Elites lived and from there they controlled the world, the United States of America sure is a pretty piece of real estate to meet those needs. Only one thing, or should I say 268,000,000, stands in their way.

    Has everyone read the UN's Human Rights Act of 1948? I don't see a second amendment type decree in it, anywhere.

    Why is that, Cap'n Ron?....Welp...nobody knows for sure...it just happens that way...[from the movie Captain Ron starring Kurt Russell]


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The 2nd amendment is really pretty clear. It gives all Amercian citizens, the right to SELF DEFENCE......... From all enemy's. Be they thieve's, rapeist, foriegn invasion, or overpowerful goverment sponsored JBT'S.

    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • shootstrightshootstright Member Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Education is the ability to go though life without intelligents .
    Intelligents is the ability to go though life without an education.
    This is why people in government are mostly over educated and lacking intelligents.
    Ones ability to read ,understand and interpret should be enough to understand what the 2nd amendment is about. It is far to simple in it's wording for anyone with a liberal education to interpret or understand.
    If you want to hear how stupid liberals are just give one of them a microphone and let them speak. [8D]
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Reckon it's what you call educated beyond their knowledge.[8D]quote:Originally posted by shootstright
    Education is the ability to go though life without intelligents .
    Intelligents is the ability to go though life without an education.
    This is why people in government are mostly over educated and lacking intelligents.
    Ones ability to read ,understand and interpret should be enough to understand what the 2nd amendment is about. It is far to simple in it's wording for anyone with a liberal education to interpret or understand.
    If you want to hear how stupid liberals are just give one of them a microphone and let them speak. [8D]


    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • shootstrightshootstright Member Posts: 342 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Knowledge needs to be filed away and used as needed.
    Liberals only repeat what they hear or are told . Lacking
    in the intelligents department that is all most of them are
    capable of.[8D]
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Glad to see the fire is still burning my friends. A lotta a ggod points here...To call all whom have not served as cowards however,is misguided......This would include Presidents,doctors,scientists, Folks who were working on the new arms that you were using etc.Did you vote for Clinton I wonder....But to give gun freak his due I am not sticking to subject manner....look at this comma thing ,which by the way is true and real as another clip for the battle to come.Is there such a thing as too much ammo? L.H.
  • mcasomcaso Member Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This question can only be settled by a Supreme Court ruling. There can be no Supreme Court ruling until some one ponies up the money for the legal battle. So unless one of you millonaire out there puts up the money things are going to remain the same. After all the NRA, which has never shown any indecation of filing a Supreme Court case, has poured our money into that monmument HQ instead of taking said action. The GOA, also, doesn't appear to be interested in paying for a Supreme Court case. And the gun manufactors are ignoring the matter. All of this means is that every day we loose more and more of our rights. While those who are receiving our money are smiling all the way to the bank.
    So those of you who try and shout me down and/or belittle me save your breath and spent alittle time FOLLOWING THE MONEY. Remember there can only be court ruling AFTER there has been a court filing. Or am I wrong? Have the above named filed the case?
    mcaso
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