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I Won't Sincerely Bash GOA

tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
As you know, for anyone interested, I have a great philosophical disagreement with the many, many people here that chose to publicly criticize ANY of the few pro-gun rights groups we have fighting for us. In mind, it does no good what so ever and even does harm in that it weakens the organization being criticized and sometimes may even strengthen our enemies.

My way is to be grateful for the few pro-gun organizations we DO have working for us and to remember that none of the organization ever have been nor ever will be perfect. So just as if your house was burning down, and there was a shortage of volunteer firemen trying to save your house, surely you would not criticize, harass, harangue or otherwise try to run off any one of those firemen trying their reasonable best to help you.

Now when the gun confisications started in New Orleans, La, after hurricane Katrina, many people here and on another board severely criticized the NRA for not hopping into a van and barreling down to N.O. and somehow, someway forcible stopping the authorities from taking lawful citizens firearms. And then the NRA AND the Second Amendment Foundation became the ONLY two national gun rights organizations that did the most reasonable and sensible thing. They filed a lawsuit in court. The judge agreed with the lawsuit and not only ordered the authorities to stop the confisications, but also order them to return ALL guns to ALL lawful gun owners.

Of course as can always be expected, some NRA bashers complained about how "Well, yeah the guns have to be returned to the lawful owners, but the owners HAVE TO SHOW PROOF OF OWNERSHIP and how are they going to have such proof if they have just suffered from a hurricane?". Well, give me a break. Few such lawsuits, even when won, are perfect.

But in my mind, not only was this a great victory for N.O. and Louisiana residents , but a victory for lawful Americans all across America. Had the gun confiscation's been allowed to go unchallenged, the next time there was some huge emergency someplace else, those authorities might very well look to the gun confiscation's in N.O. as the precedent and thereby be encouraged to do THEIR own gun confiscation's. So hopefully, because of the court decision forcing the N.O. authorities to stop the confisications and return the guns, not only will any future Louisiana gun confisications be unlikely, but the NRA/SAF court case decision will discourage emergency gun confisications all across America.

Now if I was one of the people who are willing to be quick to throw criticism at one of our few friends, I might have spoke up for the NRA/SAF and spoke AGAINST the GOA. But this is not my way and if it was, my speaking out against the GOA would do more harm than help to the pro-gun rights movement.

Now, to get more to the point of my reason for posting, below is part of an e-mail I got from the GOA. (Yes, I am a paying member of GOA, NRA and the Second Amendment Foundation):


Gun Owners of America E-Mail Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org

Tuesday, November 22, 2005


"Thanks so much for sending me the link to the videos on your [GOA]
website. I showed the members of the [House] committee the video of
out-of-state police confiscating weapons in the state. They watched
it and couldn't believe it." -- Rep. Steve Scalise (R), November 18,
2005

There were two super victories this past week. One you may be
familiar with. One you may not.

First, we'll begin with the victory you probably haven't heard.


GUN CONFISCATION: NEVER AGAIN IN LOUISIANA

GOA was honored to assist state representative Steve Scalise last
week, as he successfully pushed a "gun restoration"
resolution in the
state of Louisiana, in response to what government officials did in
the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

You will remember that in September, government agents were
confiscating the firearms of law-abiding citizens in New Orleans.

But incredibly, this has been one of the best kept secrets in the
state. While discussing this issue with his colleagues last week,
Rep. Scalise became astounded that many of them were ignorant of the
fact that government officials were stealing firearms two months ago!

Well, GOA provided Rep. Scalise with the URL to the videos on the GOA
website -- videos which he then showed during the legislative
committee hearing.

"Thanks so much for sending me the link to the videos on your
website," Scalise said. "I showed the members of the [House]
committee the video of out-of-state police confiscating weapons in
the state. They watched it and couldn't believe it."

Rep. Scalise also told GOA that the videos were quite instrumental.
"It's one thing to hear about these confiscation's," he said.
"It's
quite another thing to see them for yourself."

Scalise thanked GOA and its members in Louisiana, saying that our
combined activism had helped to solidify the overwhelming support in
favor of his resolution.

His measure passed the House by a vote of 78-1 and then was later
sent to Gov. Kathleen Blanco's desk. The resolution does three
things:

1. It points out that innocent civilians did, in fact, have their
guns confiscated (stolen) in September.

2. It gives a "sense of the legislature" that the governor should
bring up legislation in the next session to repeal laws that were
used to justify the confiscation of firearms during an emergency.

3. Finally, the resolution indicates that ALL citizens who had
firearms confiscated must have their guns returned.

Scalise is now working on introducing binding legislation that he
will actively push in January of next year. This bill will amend the
state code to remove any language that could provide a pretext for
the future confiscation of guns in the state. He already has several
dozen cosponsors.


End of e-mail

Now if I wanted to criticize for the sake of criticizing, I could point out that GOA did nothing visible to me regarding the gun confisications in N.O..(as well as the gun ban vote in S.F., CAlif.).
But the GOA DID come through for us in another way. They are working with LA state legislators to pass laws making positively sure that such gun confiscation do not happen again in the state of LA.

Now this is a great idea. But again, if I wanted to be the type to criticize, I could grip about how "yeah, GOA is doing a good thing, but they are cheap about it because it doesn't take much money to just work with legislators, but it DOES take money to file a lawsuit like the NRA/SAF did."

And even though some might say I am complaining just by posting this post, that is not my intention. I am merely trying to use an example to make my point.

My point being don't PUBLICLY criticize any of the few friends we have. If you don't like a particular organization, if that organization is even halfway trying, remain silent and if you must, work within that organization to change it for the better.

All pro-gun people will be better off if you do it this way.

(Note: I don't expect many people to care what I think. But for those who HATE the way I think, I have to question why you have bothered to read this far. And for those getting ready to flame me, if I cared what THEY THINK, I would haven't made this posted topic)



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Comments

  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First,
    Would you please explain to me the meaning of your last statement in your post?
    quote:I would haven't made this posted topic


    Second,
    You really shouldn't start out a thread with something you have already done.
    These are quotes that YOU have said. Is this criticizing them? Or is this somehow not criticizing, because YOU are the one that said it?
    quote: why didn't your great GOA actually DO SOMETHING,
    quote: you got caught backing the wrong group; the GOA

    Then you started a whole post about it.
    quote: Sorry, but GOA supports wrong Bill.

    Now in this thread alone.
    quote:I could point out that GOA did nothing visible to me regarding the gun confisications in N.O..(as well as the gun ban vote in S.F., CAlif.).
    quote:GOA is doing a good thing, but they are cheap about it because it doesn't take much money to just work with legislators,

    In another post you asked me what the GOA was doing. So I told you, which is basically what you have posted here. And I told you that the GOA said they had no "legal" grounds to file a suit. Your comment to me was.
    quote:Funny how you blab on and on about what GOA is GOING TO DO or PLANS TO DO.

    Now in this post you say..
    quote:But this is not my way and if it was, my speaking out against the GOA would do more harm than help to the pro-gun rights movement.
    ???



    As for criticizing ANY group.
    Are your "elected officials" that are in office, there to (supposedly) represent their constituents?
    Did you "hire" them (vote for them) to do that job?
    Are you going to turn a blind eye to "how" they are doing that job?
    Or are you going to keep track of what they are doing, so that if they are NOT doing what you hired them to do, in the next election you can "vote" (hire) someone else, to hold that office?
    If you see this elected official stabbing you in the back, wouldn't you want to tell someone about it?
    Why wouldn't you want others to know what he/she is doing?

    The NRA is no different. I "hired" them (paid them money) to do a job. If they are not doing it the way I think it should be done, shouldn't I tell someone? If people agree with my views, fine, if not, no harm done. I do not agree with your sentiment of sticking my head in the sand, and letting them do whatever they want, never telling anyone if we are getting stabbed in the back. I WANT people to know if/when that is happening.

    I will leave this with another quote from YOU. Keep in mind, how can anyone "force those changes" if no one tells them that change is needed.
    quote:if good people like you and me don't force those changes at the NRA who will?

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Pickenup, I don't know how you have the time, effort and interest to keep track of every little misstep that I might make so that you can post your collection of them in response to my post.

    My basic position is that we don't have enough pro-gun organizations fighting for us as it is. So we need to, if not support them, then at least not attack the few we DO have.

    So I will, without taking the lengthy amount of time to try and refute or explain each and every point or quote of mine in your post, I will freely plead guilty to having occassionally violated my position as I described above. I will also freely add that I have done this because I am just like the NRA, the majority of other people and even like you; I am not perfect and I sometimes do things I shouldn't.

    BUT I DON'T BASH THE NRA/GOA EACH AND EVERYTIME I GET A CHANCE!

    I do the best I can in following my own posted philosophy. I have and will make mistakes. As will you and most everyone we know.

    In regards to comparing our US government to a private organization, that is a non-starter.

    Concerning our government, your voting WILL elected a particular person/administration. It is guaranteed that in a government election someone IS GOING to be elected. That elected person WILL effect your life for good or bad. That elected person WILL spend your tax dollars .You WILL be forced to provide those tax dollars. If you or your group personally likes/doesn't like a particular politican, it WILL help you/your group to spread your thoughts and feelings around as that WILL effect the next election and the voters.

    I don't see how much of the above compares to the NRA.

    Now let me ask you a question. Why do you even bother to join the NRA if you can find so little (if any) good to publically say about that organization?

    And since you DID spend your money to join, I would think you would want the best to happen for the NRA. But the best WON'T happen if a lot of people continue to go around criticizing the NRA. Public criticizing only creates unwanted and unneeded problems. These problems are:

    1. It will deter some people who might otherwise become new members.

    2. It will cause current members to lose some of their support for the NRA.

    3. It will cause legislators to think that the NRA is fading away or doesn't have as much clout as it trys to project.

    4. If we publically fight and critize eacn other it will encourage our anti-gun enemies.

    5. Carelessly/willingly giving/accepting public criticism of the NRA (or any pro-gun rights group) will encourage our anti-gun enemies to continue working in their "stealth" mode (one such organization was exposed not too long ago) and they will pose as pro-gun people but in fact will be working to defeat us true gun people.

    6. It will encourage otherwise happy NRA members to throw the mailed requests from the NRA for donations into the trash. No one likes to get those requests, but it is a sad fact that without money, the NRA can do nothing.

    7. It will cause members who until now have accepted the blemishes and imperfections of the NRA (just as ALL organizations and people have imperfections) to start thinking that maybe they should withdraw their support for the NRA until the NRA becomes a "perfect" organization or because of NRA mistakes made 30 years ago under a totally different group of leaders. FYI this almost happened to me because of the anti-NRA propaganda I was exposed to RIGHT HERE ON YOUR FORUM. Fortunately I realized that we have so few organizations fighting for us that NONE of them are disposable and NONE are perfect.

    Now as far as doing as you did involving me, and going back and collection numerous comments that might make me look bad, I am not going to take the time and effort to do that to you. Yet you know it could be done because you have posted tons of anti-NRA comments.

    It is so odd that you, being an NRA member, are almost a one man anti-NRA information machine.

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  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ah come on, you posted this thread in "this" forum wanting,
    expecting, even looking forward to, a response....from me.
    Admit it, if I had not responded, you would have been disappointed.

    You can get your (for the most part) pat on the back, about your post, from the "other" places you posted it. But did you notice how many people are NOT replying to your post. Could it be because they do not care to put a "negative" comment on it?

    I don't bash the NRA "EVERY CHANCE" I get, but if reporting what the NRA is doing to HURT us (and others AGREE) does not set well, too bad. The knowledge is needed, to be able to (as YOU said) "force those changes."

    As I have said, I will NOT place them on a pedestal, stick my head in the sand, and let them have free reign to do as they will, since they claim to be championing my rights. You can NOT vote for change, within the NRA, without being a member, now can you? If I was not a member, in my opinion, I would NOT have any right to criticize, or even question their actions. But I AM a member, and I have, and will continue to do so.

    I USED to think like you, with your list of reasons to keep silent. But when I found out that they were actually WRITING ANTI-FIREARMS BILLS that have being passed, bills that now, we have to live with. As well as when I found out that they SUPPORTED ANTI-GUN politicians, while at the same time, NOT supported PRO-GUN politicians, I had to pull my head out of the sand.

    I admit that this does NOT happen all the time. It did however happen often enough for (at least) one of the board of directors to PUBLICLY announce that this was the reason that he was stepping down. Were there others, that stepped down, who did NOT go public with the reason?

    I also admit that they have helped with "GOOD" bills, as well as bad ones. They have spent a LOT of money on "GOOD" politicians (if there is such a thing) as well as bad ones.

    It wasn't the actions of 30 years ago that woke me up, it was their more RECENT actions, that first drew my attention. The 30 year old stuff is what I found upon doing some investigating. Seems they have been doing this for a LONG time.

    If they do NOT agree with the current administration, people (members) NEED to wake up (as I have advocated before) and CHANGE the way the NRA is "fighting" for their rights.
    But you CAN'T FIX IT, if you DON'T KNOW IT'S BROKEN. DUH.....

    So this forum woke you up. (at least a little) Are you going to keep a closer eye on what the NRA is doing? Are you going to vote for, members of the board, that YOU want to run that organization? If so, then it was all worth it.

    I agree that you could easily go to previous posts (by me) and find anti-NRA statements. In case you haven't noticed, I have NOT been trying to hide said comments. [;)]


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    What you have described does not happen in the only two states I have daily and direct experience with.

    In KS & Mo the NRA has a good reputation and has done and continues to do good work regarding futhering our rights.

    Maybe in your part of the country things are different.

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  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    The NRA doesn't like to open it's mouth often or itself 'go to court' over an issue.

    You usually see GOA as the outspoken organization. Why did the NRA step into the Louisiana Issue first? Many emails and calls from disgruntled MEMBERS.

    Just shows you BOTH organizations are worthless unless their members stand up and start yelling.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Red223
    The NRA doesn't like to open it's mouth often or itself 'go to court' over an issue.

    You usually see GOA as the outspoken organization. Why did the NRA step into the Louisiana Issue first? Many emails and calls from disgruntled MEMBERS.

    Just shows you BOTH organizations are worthless unless their members stand up and start yelling.


    The NRA "opens it mouth" plenty of times in the past and I expect it to do so in the future.

    In regards to the above in red. Since I am still on my orginial post topic, I will speak out in this regard since the basic question was raised.

    Why didn't the GOA "step into the Louisiana situation" at all? And we cannot be positive that the NRA/SAF only filed their lawsuit because of "emails and calls from disgruntled members". Jeez, if someone does a good thing, and there is no proof positive to think otherwise, give them some honest credit for doing their good thing.

    Otherwise, by showing an automatically cynical, unappreciating and suspicous attitude towards the NRA's helpful actions, there will NEVER come a time when the NRA does something good and actually gets applauded for doing that good.

    I'll bet you wouldn't like it if your boss at work had the same attitude about you.


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  • Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    Did you get one of the emails from the NRA when the New Orleans gun confiscations started?

    Didn't it say those confiscations were....LEGAL?

    GOA posted on THEIR website videos of gun confiscation in progress in New Orleans, NRA did not....nor would they ever.

    NRA did get a judge to cease firearm confiscation. GOA has asked the US Inspector General to investigate who put out the order and hold them accountable for breaking the law (for Federal troops/contractors taking private firearms). GOA also has asked the Louisiana Attorney General to investigate and prosecute the guilty person who gave the order on a State level.

    GOA did 'denounce' the gun confiscations, while the NRA sent out emails that the gun confiscations were in fact legal.

    What has GOA been doing about this? :
    http://www.gunowners.org/no04.htm


    http://www.gunowners.org/abcnews.mpg
    http://www.gunowners.org/n102005.pdf


    The NRA/SAF joint lawsuit to stop the firearm confiscation:
    http://www.saf.org/new.orleans.lawsuit/complaint.declaratory.injunctive.relief.pdf

    Has the NRA been pursuing those that broke the law and took citizens firearms or gave illegal orders?
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tr fox, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point
    quote:And we cannot be positive that the NRA/SAF only filed their lawsuit because of "emails and calls from disgruntled members".
    there was quite a bit of talk about the NRA not stepping up on the NOLA issue and I know that I along with several other members I know had to contact them via email and phone before they stepped up. I have a feeling that SAF were the ones that really got the ball rolling and needed the backing of the 'big boys' on such a fight as was to go up against, perhaps FEMA and ultimately the White House. It didn't go down that way but there was no way to be sure where the order originated until some people got their feet wet.

    I think it safe to say that the NRA got off their butts on this issue AFTER they were swamped with emails and calls. Sometimes I honestly believe they just don't want to fight. They'd rather work via legislation and concessions, that's just how I see it. Yes, they are an organization that is out there working for our gun rights, but are they working in a manner that the members, and paying I might add, are seeing as satisfactory for their hard earned dollars. I think if you poll the members and put them into three categories your results would look like this:

    QUESTION: Does the NRA manufacture a game plan and act to carry it out or do they wait for legislation where they can trade a little for a lot and call it a win?

    NRA members who pay because they want to belong to something mainstream:
    GAME PLAN- 40%
    LEGISLATION- 40%
    I DON'T KNOW- 20%

    NRA members who are essentialy nothing more than sheeple who happen to own a gun:
    GAME PLAN- 70%
    LEGISLATION- 20%
    I DON'T KNOW- 10%

    NRA members who are educated on the methods and end goals of this government and are passionate about their gun rights.
    GAME PLAN- 10%
    LEGISLATION- 90%
    I DON'T KNOW- 0%

    So, in my opinion, the NRA legislates for victories rather than taking the battle to the enemy. When was the last time you saw an NRA advertisement that really hit hard? I can think of only one about 6 years ago with Chuck sitting on a stump with a Golden Retriever who had a duck in his mouth and I can't remember the message but it was powerful at the time. Why have we not seen an advertising media blitz concerning the gun confiscations in NOLA. They're going to wait until it has a watered down effect. They need to hit it now when it will have the most impact. Every day that goes by we lose 10,000 people to the propaganda war and by the NRA not stepping in with their newly acquired ammunition, they are playing into the hand of the enemy.

    Sorry, tr, but that's just how I see it. I'll keep paying my dues and I'll keep 6itching until they put the gun owner and our countries freedoms in front of their own personal goals and agendas. I've said it before, I'll say it again; They make too much money to win this whole battle, if all the gun laws went away, they would not be needed and subsequently their jobs would be vacated. This is where their real motivations lie.



    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    TR, I understand what you are saying, but I think you don't understand, what we are saying. I agree that the NRA does A lot for us, they also compromise A lot of our rights away. Yes the NRA did good in the lawsuit to stop the ILLEGAL gun confiscatoin in new orleanes. However what would have made the bigges statement. The lawsuit which did get A lot of media coverage, or A whole passle of ARMED CITIZENS, running down there, and standing in the way of the jbt's as they tried to confiscate guns.

    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Red223
    Did you get one of the emails from the NRA when the New Orleans gun confiscations started?

    Didn't it say those confiscations were....LEGAL?

    GOA posted on THEIR website videos of gun confiscation in progress in New Orleans, NRA did not....nor would they ever.

    NRA did get a judge to cease firearm confiscation. GOA has asked the US Inspector General to investigate who put out the order and hold them accountable for breaking the law (for Federal troops/contractors taking private firearms). GOA also has asked the Louisiana Attorney General to investigate and prosecute the guilty person who gave the order on a State level.

    GOA did 'denounce' the gun confiscations, while the NRA sent out emails that the gun confiscations were in fact legal.

    What has GOA been doing about this? :
    http://www.gunowners.org/no04.htm


    http://www.gunowners.org/abcnews.mpg
    http://www.gunowners.org/n102005.pdf


    The NRA/SAF joint lawsuit to stop the firearm confiscation:
    http://www.saf.org/new.orleans.lawsuit/complaint.declaratory.injunctive.relief.pdf

    Has the NRA been pursuing those that broke the law and took citizens firearms or gave illegal orders?







    Thanks for the details and links backing your position. I realize that is good and sound debating. However, for various reasons (maybe I'm lazy) I will respond in a different way; although I feel my way is also a valid way to respond, just a different way.

    Bottom line is that we gun owners are lucky to have three pro-gun organizations that took actions to correct the N.O. gun confiscation's. The NRA, GOA and the Second Amendment Foundation. We are also luck enough to have one such organization, the NRA, that filed a lawsuit in S.F., CAlif. to reverse the city's vote on banning ownership of handguns and the sale of ALL guns and ammo in S.F.

    So we gun owners should be loudly grateful to all three pro-gun organizations. If you disagree and feel it is fair to loudly, , widely and very publicly criticize ANY of those three organizations, think about this before you do it.

    Intense public criticism will create some harm to all three organizations. We cannot afford that harm. If you wish to change the behavior of any progun organization, do it as you would do with a member of your own family. Work within the family. Don't go out in the street and loudly denounce one of your family members.

    For those here who think that "family" is a bad or exaggerated comparison, consider this.


    Americans citizens have owned guns for over 200 years. Yet since the antigun movement first got started, only a tiny, tiny number of citizens have done ANYTHING to fight back to save gun rights.

    There are well over 65-85 million gun owners in America. I assume those gun owners want to keep their guns. Yet the TOTAL number of dues paying members of ALL the existing few national gun rights organizations in America is well, well below 8 million. This is less than ten percent of the 85 million gun owners in America. We cannot afford to discourage or drive away ANY of those dues paying and politically supporting pro-gun members. Our public criticism of the NRA, GOA, etc. WILL drive some of those members away.

    I only know of a GRAND TOTAL of three longtime, effective national pro-gun rights organizations. NRA, GOA, 2nd Amendment Foundation also affiliated with CCRKBA. I know there are/may be others, but the don't ever seem to make any public appearance do I assume they are small, weak and ineffective. But bottom line, we cannot afford to do any damage to these three national, pro-gun rights organizations. Public bashing of any of these organizations will and is harming them.

    I'm just saying that as long as ANY progun rights organization is doing reasonable well for us, just grit your teeth and if you can't say something good, don't say anything at all. If you desire change in a particular organization, then you and/or a group of your like-minded people contact or work with/within the organization in question directly to achieve change.

    If we ever see the membership of progun rights organizations raised to where it should be (30-60 million) then we pro-gunners can start to be more picky about our pro-gun organizations. Same with if we ever see 10-15 powerful, rich, national pro-gun organizations out there fighting for our rights. Then we can get picky and publicly kick the ones we don't like.

    Kinda like the parable about the scorpion and the turtle. The turtle was planning on swimming to the other side of the river. The scorpion wanted a ride so he would not drown and so asked the turtle for that ride. Turtle said "I can't give you a ride on my back because you will sting and kill me". Scorpion said "Of course I will not sting you because then we would both die". Turtle agrees and both start across the river. Halfway across the scorpion stings the turtle. As they both start to sink and drown, the turtle cries out "Why did you sting me? Now we'll both die!" Scorpion says "Because it is my nature".

    Well, it might be the "nature" of all of us to complain. But your public complaining about the NRA is like that scorpion. If you want to sting the NRA, at least wait until you get all the way across the river.



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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by KYfatboy
    TR, I understand what you are saying, but I think you don't understand, what we are saying. I agree that the NRA does A lot for us, they also compromise A lot of our rights away. Yes the NRA did good in the lawsuit to stop the ILLEGAL gun confiscatoin in new orleanes. However what would have made the bigges statement. The lawsuit which did get A lot of media coverage, or A whole passle of ARMED CITIZENS, running down there, and standing in the way of the jbt's as they tried to confiscate guns.

    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.


    A "passel of armed citizens" running ANYWHERE is the last resort. Turns out there was no need for it.

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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Comengetit
    Tr fox, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point
    quote:And we cannot be positive that the NRA/SAF only filed their lawsuit because of "emails and calls from disgruntled members".
    there was quite a bit of talk about the NRA not stepping up on the NOLA issue and I know that I along with several other members I know had to contact them via email and phone before they stepped up. still not proof that the NRA did not alread plan on taking action I have a feeling that SAF It appears that no matter what the NRA does/doesn/t do it will still get critism while the GOA get praise or at least doesn't get criticism were the ones that really got the ball rolling and needed the backing of the 'big boys' If people keep on arguing for other people to quit supporting the NRA, there will come a time when there is one less "big boy". on such a fight as was to go up against, perhaps FEMA and ultimately the White House. It didn't go down that way but there was no way to be sure where the order originated until some people got their feet wet.

    I think it safe to say that the NRA got off their butts on this issue AFTER they were swamped with emails and calls. I disagree Sometimes I honestly believe they just don't want to fight. They'd rather work via legislation and concessions, without that work we would be like England and you would have NO guns that's just how I see it. Yes, they are an organization that is out there working for our gun rights, but are they working in a manner that the members, and paying I might add, are seeing as satisfactory for their hard earned dollars. I think if you poll the members and put them into three categories your results would look like this:

    QUESTION: Does the NRA manufacture a game plan and act to carry it out or do they wait for legislation where they can trade a little for a lot and call it a win?

    NRA members who pay because they want to belong to something mainstream:
    GAME PLAN- 40%
    LEGISLATION- 40%
    I DON'T KNOW- 20%

    NRA members who are essentialy nothing more than sheeple who happen to own a gun:
    GAME PLAN- 70%
    LEGISLATION- 20%
    I DON'T KNOW- 10%

    NRA members who are educated on the methods and end goals of this government and are passionate about their gun rights.
    GAME PLAN- 10%
    LEGISLATION- 90%
    I DON'T KNOW- 0%

    So, in my opinion, the NRA legislates for victories rather than taking the battle to the enemy. When was the last time you saw an NRA advertisement that really hit hard? I can think of only one about 6 years ago with Chuck sitting on a stump with a Golden Retriever who had a duck in his mouth and I can't remember the message but it was powerful at the time. Why have we not seen an advertising media blitz concerning the gun confiscations in NOLA. Are you one of those who resents getting NRA donation requests in the mail? It costs huge bucks for such things as "advertising media blitzs". The NRA operates on pennies when they need dollars They're going to wait until it has a watered down effect. They need to hit it now when it will have the most impact. Every day that goes by we lose 10,000 people to the propaganda war and by the NRA not stepping in with their newly acquired ammunition, they are playing into the hand of the enemy. public criticism of one of our few pro-gun organizations is also "playing into the hands of the enemy"

    Sorry, tr, but that's just how I see it. I'll keep paying my dues and I'll keep 6itching until they put the gun owner and our countries freedoms in front of their own personal goals and agendas. I've said it before, I'll say it again; They make too much money to win this whole battle, if all the gun laws went away, they would not be needed and subsequently their jobs would be vacated. You are so wrong on this. The NRA is the ONLY national pro-gun organization that has numerous other gun promoting activities. Read you monthly NRA magazine and find out


    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?


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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:They'd rather work via legislation and concessions, quote: without that work we would be like England and you would have NO guns that's just how I see it. Yes, they are an organization that is out there working for our gun rights, but
    This is indeed true...if one assumes that manhood is dead in America.One MUST assume that every soldier that put on a uniform and fought overseas for THEIR freedom...is unwilling to fight for his own...and his childrens freedom...if what you say is true....

    and if what you say is true...we no longer deserve to own guns..or property...or control of our lives. The short answer is...if what you believe to be true IS true...we deserve slavery.

    Cowards deserve no less.
    That, friend, is the ultimate position of the NRA...I have read it many times in their rag. "Without the NRA..we would have no guns"..BULLSNIT.


    God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr, No, I don't mind when I get the solicitations for money from the NRA. If the cause looks good I give. I will refrain from my "public bashing" of the NRA, but something has got to change. I would like to trust Wayne LaPierre but I don't. Maybe it has to do with one of his speaches he gave where he was banging the fist of victory after giving away more than we received. It just didn't sit well with me.

    You say you totally disagree with my take on how much the big boys in the NRA get paid and how this has a direct effect on how we still have gun laws. Realisticaly, we have all the ammo we need to strike down every gun law as either illegal or unconstitutional. It's all there one just has to put it all together.


    upsdFlag.gif
    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Got this email urging action be taken. Action contacting our legislators and urging new laws that would identify/label various organizations as "terrorist" orginaztion and, among other things, members of those so labeled organizations would be unable to buy and perhaps own guns. Of course, it doesn't mention that being a member of such labeled organizations would also cause other problems such as getting jobs, traveling, possible problems with credit and insurance, etc. etc.

    Keep in mind that "laptopamerica" does not appear to be a left-wing organization. In fact, from my observations it appears to be more moderate or even lean towards the right wing. Yet the leaders of laptopamerica want this tighter restriction on gun purchases regarding terrorists and their identified organizations. And I myself don't want terrorists to have an easy time of obtaining weapons if they decide they are needed to go on a killing spree against good Americans.

    But my point in posting this is to emphasize how careful the NRA must be in it's public behavior. If the NRA had, for example, urged all its members to grab their guns and go to N.O., LA to help stop the looting, or to help stop the authorities from confiscating guns, that action alone would have been used by some of the NRA's numerous and powerful enemies to perhaps in the future labe it a "terrorist organization".

    And if that ever happens, people like me, long-time NRA members, along with my daughter and 3 year old grandson, will be "guilty" of belonging to a terrorist organization.

    So for those of you who complain the NRA isn't tough enough, or agressive enough or militant enough, you better be careful what you wish for. Below is the laptopamerica email:


    " According to the Department of Justice, under federal and state law, neither suspected nor actual membership in a terrorist organization is a stand-alone factor that would prohibit a person from receiving or possessing a firearm . If no prohibiting information is found, the transaction may proceed and a known or suspected terrorist can legally purchase firearms."

    -- General Accounting Office letter to members of Congress [March 8, 2005]

    Dear Laptop Leader,

    The United States Congress is allowing known and suspected terrorists to purchase deadly weapons on U.S. soil.

    And it is allowing them to do so without even having to pass the standard screening tests routinely required for U.S. citizens convicted of the simplest crimes and misdemeanors.

    I know this sounds almost too nightmarish to be true. That's why I have checked and double-checked it before asking you to take urgent and immediate action.

    And I want you to know that the information comes directly from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's own agents responsible for maintaining the government's "Federal Prohibitors List."

    That's the life and death computer List checked by federal, state, and local officials for the names of criminals, felons, and fugitives who are not permitted to purchase deadly weapons.

    The truth is, time and again since 9/11, FBI agents have asked Congress to broaden the List to add the names of known and suspected terrorists. It could be done in a matter of minutes...

    Yet, as I write to you today, Congress has refused to authorize the FBI to act -- even though it could help prevent an armed assault by the thousands of Islamic terrorists already operating on our own shores.

    In short, the members of Congress have put Political Correctness before the safety and security of millions of innocent Americans. And if we don't act, it could cost them their lives.

    That's why I am asking you to join me now in demanding that the members of the Senate and House immediately authorize the FBI to add the names of known and suspected terrorists to the Federal Prohibitors List.

    And I am asking that you authorize me to send 1500 news releases to the media nationwide calling their attention to this dangerous - and potentially deadly - failure on the part of our elected officials.

    end of email


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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Comengetit
    tr, No, I don't mind when I get the solicitations for money from the NRA. If the cause looks good I give. I will refrain from my "public bashing" of the NRA, but something has got to change. I would like to trust Wayne LaPierre but I don't. Maybe it has to do with one of his speaches he gave where he was banging the fist of victory after giving away more than we received. It just didn't sit well with me.

    You say you totally disagree with my take on how much the big boys in the NRA get paid and how this has a direct effect on how we still have gun laws. Realisticaly, we have all the ammo we need to strike down every gun law as either illegal or unconstitutional. It's all there one just has to put it all together.


    upsdFlag.gif
    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?


    Thank you for your response. However, we see some of the world differently. For some reason you think our progun side has the power to crush our enemies and fully restore our gun rights. Yet we cannot even force every state in the US to allow for CCW of the citizens in that state; let alone legal CCW citizens from other states. We could not stop the so-called assault weapons ban, which only banned some guns because of the way they LOOKED for God's sake, from being imposed on us by Pres. Clinton and Senator Schumer in 1994. Except for one of those hated "compromises" by the NRA we would have the ban in effect even today and into the far future. But some people were smart enough to recoginze that the ban could not be stopped so they "compromised" with their opposition by getting an agreement inserted into the law stating that after 10 years the ban would automatically sunset unless it was reauthorized by congress. Luckily for us it was NOT re-authorized by congress and over rabid objections by our opponents it DID expire.

    And of course there are a lot more reasons why it does not appear that we pro-gunners have the power to eliminate all gun laws as you claim. Consider the abortion debate. Regardless of which side you stand on, you have to admit that BOTH sides are very organized, active and powerful. Yet abortion rights vs abortion restrictions have NEVER been settled completely one way or the other; and there is no indication that will happen anytime soon.

    We gunners need to stay in the fight and to try and keep the few friends that we have strong and healthy so they can provide a degree of help to us. I myself would prefer those friends give us a 100% of help but I will settle for only 50% up to the time we have more such friends than we need.

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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:

    posted by Highball:

    That, friend, is the ultimate position of the NRA...I have read it many times in their rag. "Without the NRA..we would have no guns"..BULLSNIT.




    You have your opinion and I have mine. In regards to which is the right opinion, neither of us can offer iron clad poof. However, in defense of my position I will mention this:

    We have had the NRA for over 100 years and inspite of powerful and organized opposition, and in spite of the way that most of the world's citizen have been totally disarmed, you and I still have our guns.

    Now, if you had the power to do so, would you (and anyone else) wish to rewind history, eliminate the NRA, do a fast forward and see if we STILL have our guns?

    For the paltry $35.00 per year that the NRA expects from me to carry me as a member on their membership list, that is cheap insurance and I for one DO NOT wish to rewind history to find out if the NRA has been one of the few (maybe the ONLY) reason we still have our guns.

    f2520l.jpg
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:Now, if you had the power to do so, would you (and anyone else) wish to rewind history, eliminate the NRA, do a fast forward and see if we STILL have our guns?
    Yes.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey fox,

    All I am looking for in the NRA is that one instance where they give back substance to machine guns, and admit they made an error supporting the Volkmer/McClure FOPA '86 due to its poison pill amendment, and stop already with the praise of this "landmark legislation" they helped draft.

    Once the dangers of banning a certain class of firearm has been unveiled, they can begin remedial grassroot support for having it undone. This was the mother bill for the '94 AWB, and the '89 import ban. It all started here....

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Let me clarify my "Yes" above.

    The NRA was incorporated to instruct American citizens in the fine art of markmenship...an art sadly believed to be a "birthright" of every American...something actually dismally lacking.

    Had they remained true to that ideal...and stayed OUT of the "Compromise" business....I would be 100 % behind them.

    The schools have taken riflery out of nearly ALL states...I cannot think of any left...why no law suits over this, for example ?
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gunphreak
    Hey fox,

    All I am looking for in the NRA is that one instance where they give back substance to machine guns, and admit they made an error supporting the Volkmer/McClure FOPA '86 due to its poison pill amendment, and stop already with the praise of this "landmark legislation" they helped draft.

    Once the dangers of banning a certain class of firearm has been unveiled, they can begin remedial grassroot support for having it undone. This was the mother bill for the '94 AWB, and the '89 import ban. It all started here....

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.

    "Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the ugliest one of all?"

    -Janet Reno, the Butcher of Waco.

    I hear ya. And yours is not an unreasonable request except.................

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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    Let me clarify my "Yes" above.

    The NRA was incorporated to instruct American citizens in the fine art of markmenship...an art sadly believed to be a "birthright" of every American...something actually dismally lacking.

    Had they remained true to that ideal...and stayed OUT of the "Compromise" business....I would be 100 % behind them.

    The schools have taken riflery out of nearly ALL states...I cannot think of any left...why no law suits over this, for example ?


    And what would that lawsuit claim/ask for? While I totally agree with you, I think you are putting an unreasonable demand upon the NRA. Schools have a whole lot of control about what "extras" they teach/don't teach in school. Heck, it is obvious that schools don't even have to teach citizenship or teach the many reasons why in most cases the USA are the GOOD guys. Nor do schools have to teach the many reasons why we should (most of the time) be grateful we were born in America and not Russia. Nor do they have to teach that, like it or not, modern Western civilizations (not black, brown or yellow civilizations) were created by the blood, sweat and tears of mostly white people.

    Unfortuntely, if you were able to file a lawsuit and force schools to teach firearm marksmanship, that would put schools in the position of having to teach ANYTHING that was demanded by a lawsuit. That might be ok with you, until something you were totally against started being taught solely because of conditions caused by your lawsuit.

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  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    quote:Now, if you had the power to do so, would you (and anyone else) wish to rewind history, eliminate the NRA, do a fast forward and see if we STILL have our guns?
    Yes.


    There is no way to know but what you might not like what you saw after the fast forward.

    For a lously $35.00 per year to the NRA, I will gladly accept the present reality we have and work within that realilty to improve things.

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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Of course you are right, Tr., about a lawsuit.

    I despise lawyers and their power over us...and it was a temporary slip into insanity to suggest one. Thanks.[:D]
    As for the rest of it...I love freedom.

    What we live under is NOT FREEDOM...and your daughter is going to know far worse.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    Of course you are right, Tr., about a lawsuit.

    I despise lawyers and their power over us...and it was a temporary slip into insanity to suggest one. Thanks.[:D]
    As for the rest of it...I love freedom.

    What we live under is NOT FREEDOM...and your daughter is going to know far worse.


    Dang! When did you get so friendly and everything?

    Wait a minute! Somebody gave you a free gun this weekend! Right?

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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    I WISH !!
    Nope...Mr Fox..across a table, over a cup of coffee...I AM a friendly feller.
    This cyberspace forum is difficult to convey nuances...typing is slow and trying for me. I don't waste many words on 'friendly'...and perhaps I should.
    I am not nearly as abrupt in person.

    Plus..when I am wrong....I admit it.The quicker the better.
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    Let me clarify my "Yes" above.

    The NRA was incorporated to instruct American citizens in the fine art of markmenship...an art sadly believed to be a "birthright" of every American...something actually dismally lacking.

    Had they remained true to that ideal...and stayed OUT of the "Compromise" business....I would be 100 % behind them.

    The schools have taken riflery out of nearly ALL states...I cannot think of any left...why no law suits over this, for example ?


    And what would that lawsuit claim/ask for? While I totally agree with you, I think you are putting an unreasonable demand upon the NRA. Schools have a whole lot of control about what "extras" they teach/don't teach in school. Heck, it is obvious that schools don't even have to teach citizenship or teach the many reasons why in most cases the USA are the GOOD guys. Nor do schools have to teach the many reasons why we should (most of the time) be grateful we were born in America and not Russia. Nor do they have to teach that, like it or not, modern Western civilizations (not black, brown or yellow civilizations) were created by the blood, sweat and tears of mostly white people.

    Unfortuntely, if you were able to file a lawsuit and force schools to teach firearm marksmanship, that would put schools in the position of having to teach ANYTHING that was demanded by a lawsuit. That might be ok with you, until something you were totally against started being taught solely because of conditions caused by your lawsuit.

    f2520l.jpg


    Highball, here is one of those rare occassions where we disagree. I think you were right on with the lawsuit. We are already in a situation where our children's scholastic syllabus is so skewed that it hardly resembles what our curriculum was all about. This has been brought on by liberals and the candy pants feminine movement. They have accomplished this through legislation. It would appear to me that there are only two ways to get things done now days, legislate or dominate, the latter referring to the gun.

    We no longer have "under God" in many of our schools, English isn't even the official language, field day has been trimmed and altered to nearly a fragment of what it used to be, field trips to the museum and cultural center are gone, forget about a rifle class, do we still have the presidential physical fitness test and awards...no, our children are taught to fear our government but not in a bad way...no, they are taught that the government is all knowing and should be revered. It is the things mentioned and about a thousand more that are changing our country for the worse, it all starts in those elementary schools, when we lost the content of a well balanced, conservative curriculum, we lost everything.

    I believe my graduating class was probably near the end of an era whereby the education system turned out really intelligent free thinkers. Now, the graduates have been deprived the ability to think on their own thanks to people like Schumer, Feinstien, Clinton, Rev. Jackson, Sharpton, Carter, and every other liberal fatlady on this planet. Once the ability to take in a situation and apply knowledge and experience in determining the construction and effect of the situation was lost the gene pool has been severly watered down. I'll bet 18 year old kids couldn't tell us anything about 'the new deal' or do you think they are even taught anything about the NFA and how it has changed and shaped a culture?

    If we are to bring this country out of the doldrums of societal melt-down, we must recapture our educational system for it has been high-jacked and the liberal message is being branded on our children. Ever try and remove a 'branding' mark? All you can do is alter it but the original brand is always there under the alteration. This is our quest and arguably the most important of all quests in an attempt to bring back an America that once was.

    Back to my disagreement, I think the whole reason we are here in this predicament is due to legislation. We have legislated ourselves backwards about 75 years and unless we change it and pronto, we will be in a world of hurt when my generation retires, that's only 20 years. Since we have lost it to legislation, we must win it all back through legislation. If that fails then we get jaflowers and the boys and make a little noise. I truly believe it WILL come to us having to take up arms against our captors, the liberals and feminist movement are destroying what once was the apex of greatness. They are like a cancer, they erode and eat away all that is good and in it's place grows a vile compilation of deadly tissues choking the life out of it's host. In this case the USA. Problem being, we are hard pressed to find legal council that has managed to avoid the dismal liberalism cancer and are passionate in there beliefs and tenets.

    It is just so much easier to be a liberal, they really don't have to do anything but spread the cancer. Laziness, obescity, alcoholism and drug abuse, domestic violence, lower S.A.T. scores, street gangs, homosexuality, a lost religion, where's the family unit, education sucks, our boys are acting like girls, and our girls are acting like gay lovers, abortion, make everything illegal, repeal of death penalty, violent crime, acceptance, new world order, tollerance, fewer voters, lower self-respect, parental lock-up, out of control youth, diet pepsi, Lite beer, William Jefferson Clinton, affirmative action, wellfare, The Village People, life partners, JBT's, Steel Magnolias, Richard Simmons, Donny & Marie Osmond, and oh so many more are all attributable to the cancer that IS: LIBERALISM made possible by the judicial system.

    I guess I don't really disagree after all.[V]


    upsdFlag.gif
    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Once again I understand what you are saying. Was there no need for it, how many guns were wrongfully taken from law abiding citizens? Yea it would have ruffled some feathers, sometimes people need to know just were we stand. It would have made A tremendous statement to the brady bunch, the jbt's, the eleitist, and the rest of the world, had something like say 100,000 armed citizens went to N.O. and stood in the way of the gestopo confiscateing guns.quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    quote:Originally posted by KYfatboy
    TR, I understand what you are saying, but I think you don't understand, what we are saying. I agree that the NRA does A lot for us, they also compromise A lot of our rights away. Yes the NRA did good in the lawsuit to stop the ILLEGAL gun confiscatoin in new orleanes. However what would have made the bigges statement. The lawsuit which did get A lot of media coverage, or A whole passle of ARMED CITIZENS, running down there, and standing in the way of the jbt's as they tried to confiscate guns.

    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.


    A "passel of armed citizens" running ANYWHERE is the last resort. Turns out there was no need for it.

    f2520l.jpg


    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    WELL, Comengetit....SPLENDID rant !!
    I see you talked yourself out of the lawsuit...Fox took me out behind the woodshed with a club to change MY mind...[:D]

    Just how can we stand in a corrupted court and talk about the loss of American ideals..the cherished icons of a vanished age...the age of freedom ? Laughed out of court, we would be...
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ugh, can't stand to read this thread. Are we still in the same cycle as two years ago? Or five, ten, twenty years ago?

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Wounded Wolf;
    The "Whats for dinner" crowd is over on General. Feel free to join them.
    Whats on tv tonight
    How fast does your car run
    got girly pictures ?

    ALL availible on General.

    Sorry the discussions about freedom and gun rights offend you.

    As no doubt you just cruise thru now and again..you no doubt have missed the interesting turns this forum has taken as intelligent men debate issues that will decide your future...either from the top down....or the bottom up.
  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Perhaps you are right Highball. Maybe I am no longer priviledged enough to sit in the back of the gun shop with all of you yahoos that sit around the table smoking cigars, convincing yourselves that you are molding the future while the world evolves around you.

    If and when the gun grabbers knock on your door, I hope you will be able to take notice from your computer keyboard, as no doubt you will be in the process of crafting your latest anti-NRA thread as the world collapses around you.

    -Wolf

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It would seem that another country has entered, and managed to divide, and conquer those of us who were the strongest. There is nothng we can do to keep them from monotoring us, we can however ignore them.[}:)]

    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    "Conquer"...?
    Hardly.

    Been carrying the burden of the Wounded Wolfs for a long time...shirkers that ought to be involved...but merely throw stones at those that are.

    Nothing more then a flea bit on the backside.
  • KYfatboyKYfatboy Member Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wasn't talkin about ww1quote:Originally posted by Highball
    "Conquer"...?
    Hardly.

    Been carrying the burden of the Wounded Wolfs for a long time...shirkers that ought to be involved...but merely throw stones at those that are.

    Nothing more then a flea bit on the backside.


    Traveling from the west, unto the east. Insearch of that which was lost, but with my endavors, and his assistance, I am hopeful, of finding.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
    Ugh, can't stand to read this thread. Are we still in the same cycle as two years ago? Or five, ten, twenty years ago?

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.


    Well, of course you know you don't HAVE to read it. I know I purposely don't read things I don't want to read.

    But you are right about the same old cycle and I even get tired of it. I would much rather be doing something than always trying to convince the NRA bashers to kindly do their bashing in private. Meaning don't speak out and try to convince the whole world how "bad" the NRA is. Instead direct complaints and suggestions directly to the NRA. The NRA has numerous elected board of directors and surely without a doubt you could find a few that would be sympathic to your complaints.

    But in the meantime, for anyone trying to convince the world that the NRA is a seriously defective oranization, what those public complaints are really doing is harming and weakening the NRA. And that might not be so bad until you realize that the NRA is one of a very, very few nationwide, large, powerful and effective friends we gunners have.

    If we every get more such friends than we need, anybody and everybody can rip the heck out of the NRA for all I can. And then the NRA can look out for itself.

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  • WoundedWolfWoundedWolf Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    TR, thank you for seeing my point. I have accepted that the NRA is imperfect in the same way that the Republican Party is imperfect, yet I am still a member of both. My comment was out of the sincere frustration of seeing a group of insightful men continually grind away at the same old issues and at each other.

    Mr. Highball, I have yet to decipher what "involvement" you advocate. First you supported NO involvement, then it was involvement for the other side so that we hasten the gun-grab. What is your flavor this week? Please clarify so that I will no longer "shirk" whatever duty you feel I am obligated to.

    -Wolf

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.
  • ComengetitComengetit Member Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I take a day off and we're at each other's throats. Jeeze, come on fellas, WW has a point, and by the way, where have you been hiding, WW? We have kind of beat this horse to death over and again and tr fox, you are doing something! You're keeping people like me from publicly ridiculing the NRA for the reasons that you stated. I will indeed direct my rants on the NRA, to the NRA. So you see, your work is paying off one gun owner at a time, that we know of.[;)]

    Look we have all been discussing pretty much the same stuff in a different costume for the four months that I have been here and I must admit, it does wear on one a little so cut the guys some slack, at least their all still here. I would like to see a few new invigorating subjects but I don't want to place them on the forum just for the sake of being different. This is right about where I would normally pick a nice fight with someone to give everyone a brief interlude but I don't think that is going to get 'er done this time. We have all hit the wall at the same time. So there is only one thing to do...take a break from the board, go out shooting, read some of the excellent new articles out there on the internet news sites, not mainstream media, unless the objective is to embarrass them. I am all for that. We still have a job to do, WW that includes you too so take your seat at the back of the barber shop, grab a stogey, and get back into the mix.

    If nothing else, add to the sticky. Try to keep it neat and simple. A couple of the posts are so mangled I just skipped right past them. People are reading them so if you find a good one, start a thread and post it to the sticky. I'd like to see jaflowers back as well as a few other folks, I have a suspicion they hit the wall a little earlier the we did. It's no big deal, just don't make the mistake of taking it out on each other. There just aren't enough of us who will really do all they can to make a difference, so we must keep those we do have. Give it a few days, it'll freshen up, besides Christmas is just around the corner. Why don't we all try spending a little extra quality time with our families, I know they would love it and making family feel important is priority number one. Take the kids or grandkids out for an ice cream and a drive to look at lights or maybe plan some kind of outing for the whole family on a Saturday. Fill yourselves with Christmas cheer, all of our problems will still be here when you return and think of how much your family will bond together as a family unit once again. We are the leaders of our families, it's up to us to see when it could use a boost or two.

    I will be on and off until after the holidays, but I do plan on keeping up with my reading. I'll expect a full report on how your holiday season went as I wish you all the very best this holiday season, may God bless you and yours. Let's all be safe out there driving too, I want to see EVERYONE back here after New Years.

    For those of you that may not have family, my door is always open at Christmas time, if you want to share the Christmas cheer or just don't want to be alone, give me a holler, we'll see what we can do about it.

    You guys have all made a difference in my life and I hope I can return the favor. Happy Trails to you, until we meet again.



    MERRY CHRISTMAS!


    upsdFlag.gif
    There are two kinds of people in this World....Those who lead....and those who get the hell out of the way...GUT CHECK!...Which one are you?
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
    TR, thank you for seeing my point. I have accepted that the NRA is imperfect in the same way that the Republican Party is imperfect, yet I am still a member of both. My comment was out of the sincere frustration of seeing a group of insightful men continually grind away at the same old issues and at each other.

    Mr. Highball, I have yet to decipher what "involvement" you advocate. First you supported NO involvement, then it was involvement for the other side so that we hasten the gun-grab. What is your flavor this week? Please clarify so that I will no longer "shirk" whatever duty you feel I am obligated to.

    -Wolf

    wwsm.GIF
    MOLON LABE




    The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.


    Regarding the quote above in red. Very insightful comment. In fact I was using such words today when talking with a formerly anti-gun, but still a left-wing liberal. She thought I was a sincere Republican. But I told here I don't love the Republician party, I just distrust the Republican party slightly less than the Democratic party. I went on to say that both political parties use us,lie to us and cheat us. But at least the Republican party generally espouses many of the attitudes that I do. It just doesn't put those attitudes into practice as often as I would like.

    Kinda like my support for the NRA. With the very few such organizations around, I don't have many places to go with my desire to support.

    BTW Comeingetit, excellent and constructive post. [^]

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  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Sigh..............I tried fox..............I really Did....... However you know that I side away from you on this one.Think this way...what would the NRA be without the gunowners that contribute? Nothing thats what . Would I really want that...Oh I wish...IF just for a day...You see IF the NRA would even be bothered to talk with its mewmbers that have moved on,just HOW MUCH stronger might they be?The numbers are staggering I am sure.....have THEY looked inti it?BAH!
    They could care less my friend...I do believe that or I would not say it.They like so many other corporate type organizations gare most I believe about recruitment etc. to keep them going,at whatever cost. Well guess what?So do the Ciggarette manufacters .... Its just business my friend....and I can't back them that way ....Period....Sorry friend,I would stand with you and proud to......but not on this issue.......[:(]L.H.
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