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Without further responses to gage effect, I guess I'll digress and explain. Apparently, you liked the "Gray - Grey" Area comments, and you obviously picked up on the variant spelling, thank you. It was not a typo on my part!! Rather a subliminal message that even the "word" Gray or Grey, you choose, is not well defined. Isn't that ironic!! Neither spelling is totally right, yet neither is wrong. Another example of a Gray/Grey area.
quote:(Edited to shorten links ONLY)
Now that is funny!
Pickenup,.......I learned my lesson, and I know what you are all about now. You will never hear another "episode" from me like before.
I have been spending some time on another site,........as it is tiring what happens here, on OTHER forums, but that is the end of my comment on that.
I wished that the proverbial "petition" could have gone somewhere, but was not surprised at the disagreements.
As I said before,.........I am a member of the NRA through November of 2008.
It will most likely end there,............and it also may not matter, as there is a good chance that we could be well on our way to a totally different nation by then.
I still hope not,........but it ain't looking good folks![}:)]
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
quote:Please do not let your rabid hatred of the NRA cause you to make foolish comments. The pro-gun side of this case WAS VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL. So in that regard, how and why do you throw any blame at the NRA? Besides, the city of Washington, D.C., the anti-gun losing side BTW, will probably appeal the pro-gun decision to the US Supreme Court. Of course, if D.C. doesn't appeal the case I am sure you, and many others here, will find some way to blame the NRA.
"Rabid Hatred"???? Nothing could be further from the truth!!!! IF you knew me, you would realize that I am the most laid-back person you will EVER meet. I can get along with anyone, even stupid. The world of "Rabid Hatred" is reserved for fanatics. I don't even "Hate" them. I empathize with them. They are the product of years of conditioning, brainwashing and propaganda; weak, mindless, followers of Powerful People with an agenda
No, what I have is, what some would label, a character flaw. I analyze the facts. I delve into trends, compare them with current events and avoid the `Talking Points" used to make an argument. I think for myself. I have a propensity to avoid the gray areas. Grey is the realm of the elites and politicians. Rather, a wise man will look at the overall picture and SEE the black or white for what it is. The gray interpretation, those for public consumption, will inevitably leave out the most important details, the down side, the things they don't want you to know. Grey is the tool of deceit and divisiveness!! You and I can't afford to live there!!! None of us can!!!!
Given Gray, YOU see the White in the D.C. case, using it as an example of a victory for D.C. gun owners. IF only viewed in the short term, with blinders, I can see how you could come to that conclusion. A SMALL Victory that will benefit D.C. gun owners and has the anti's running for cover.
I on the other-hand see the BLACK in this "Victory". By derailing a review by the Supreme Court this "Victory" will NEVER, and this would be the best chance, result in the 1st TRUE precedent to uphold the 2nd Amendment for what it is, an individual Right!!! So, once again, a compromise that benefits the few, at the expense of the majority!!! AND, Now, all those guns/gun-owners in D.C. can/will be accounted for. And, OBTW, the anti's aren't running, they just moved on to greener pastures!!
The NRA is not alone in this and my real question is why did they expose their hand and try to derail the appeal in the first place? An appeal to the Supreme Court will/would, most likely not happen anyway, for many reasons. The anti's find this one too difficult to defend if the Supreme reviews it. They can make an argument all day long, for gun registration and background checks however, they are at a lose to defend denying an individual the right to protect themselves. And that was the basis of the suit. I think D.C., under pressure from the left, will suck this up, just rewrite their laws, and never file their appeal. The backlash would devastate the grand successes, now being perpetrated throughout the country under the guise of current law.
I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!!
I have said it, of myself, before, at times I lack tact and diplomacy. The reason? I have a rule that I live by; "If I can't speak frankly to my friends, and likewise, then we are not friends." My friends know they will not hurt my feelings by telling me the truth, and likewise. Disagreement can spawn healthy debate and dispose of hidden resentments. Brutal Honesty is the best policy, as it makes you come face to face with your inadequacies. I, personally, have no grand illusions because I have good friends. As is human nature, it prevents you from placing yourself on a pedestal. The NRA sits atop a very high pedestal, of deceit. I feel no animosity toward you for your stand in support of the NRA, I just don't agree. And, if I didn't consider you a friend I wouldn't waste my time trying to make you see the error in the blind confidence you have that every victory is something good. We're still taking about an infringement on the 2nd Amendment!!
Blind Allegiances, to any cause, is reason for concern. Healthy skepticism must be applied to everything that comes from lobbyists and the Government, because they have an agenda that, in the long term, is only "Self-serving", rather than for the public good. We The People must wake up and do some thinking for ourselves and quit relying upon the Interpretations (The Gray) offered up by the Lobbyists and the Government Elites. They are leading us, willingly in most instances, down the path of self-destruction.
My call is not for the demise of the NRA. I, instead, would rather piss-off the membership by letting them know they have been deceived and betrayed. The case for misrepresentation by the NRA, as a 2nd Amendment Advocate/Supporter, is very hard to deny. They have a long history that either attests to the fact that they have no understanding of the 2nd Amendment OR that is NOT their main agenda. Either way; Not someone I want as my mouthpiece. The ultimate success or failure of the NRA can only be decided by its membership. They either unite under ONE FLAG (Protect ALL guns and the 2nd Amendment) AND DEMAND a change in policy OR they seek other representation. I've made mine.
The bottom line is that the 2nd Amendment is an easy target. The politico's can get away with just about anything they want and have willing accomplices to boot. The even greater danger is that it all goes unchallenged and, written into these unconstitutional laws, are infringements on other Amendments. Upon other Rights, guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Amendments that, otherwise, would be off limits and if attacked directly would create a public outcry. Throughout their history, and all the elections you mentioned, why has there never been a Ron Paul in charge? Could it be that the nomination and election process is as corrupt as that in the Federal Government?? Ignorance, indifference, self-gratification and the ME first mentality WILL be our Demise.
Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois
Illinois State Rifle Association ^ Story and comments:
Posted on 04/27/2007 Click here for details
Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 Click here for details
(Edited to shorten links ONLY)
In bold above. Even Superman can't be in every place where he is needed. You condemn the NRA for failures in Illinois, yet you give no credit for the NRA and the SAF being the ONLY entities who took legal action to get lawful gun owners guns returned during the Katrina Hurricane confistication in New Orleans. And then the NRA went on to lobby to pass laws in several states (it is trying for all states) that would prohibit the government from doing that confistication again.
All I see is complaints about what the NRA does not do. I rarely, if ever, see any appreciation for what the NRA does.
quote:In bold above. Even Superman can't be in every place where he is needed. You condemn the NRA for failures in Illinois, yet you give no credit for the NRA and the SAF being the ONLY entities who took legal action to get lawful gun owners guns returned during the Katrina Hurricane confistication in New Orleans. And then the NRA went on to lobby to pass laws in several states (it is trying for all states) that would prohibit the government from doing that confistication again.
All I see is complaints about what the NRA does not do. I rarely, if ever, see any appreciation for what the NRA does.
You are indeed, a hard sell. You miss the point completely. The real/perceived successes are well advertised and embraced by the membership and gun owners as a whole. They actually believe, or perceive, the NRA is there to support their right to keep and bear arms. Why dwell on the bones they throw to maintain that image? You, along with thousands of others, have sucked that up hook, line and sinker. Why would I blow their horn if my objective were to expose the facts that blatantly say otherwise? To document NRA support of legislation that strips, or at least further restricts their rights, rather than supports the 2nd Amendment or the RTKABA's.
I don't see the Katrina "Victory" doing Illinois gun owners any good. Do You?? A hollow victory at best, most will never see their firearms (or compensation) again!!! It was more of a PR victory than anything else!!!
New, ever expanding, wider sweeping, "Laws" have precedence over that short-lived victory. Again, passed with NRA support!! (Directly or indirectly.) Condoning an action, by inaction, is the same as supporting that action!!! Unfortunately the NRA doesn't understand that either.
Did the NRA oppose SB16, the Daley "Assault Weapons" ban. A Carbon copy of H.R.1022??? What will it take to get the NRA to oppose H.R.1022 (or 297 for that fact) or will this sweeping "Assault Weapons Ban" fly under the radar as well.. And then the Gestapo comes knocking NATION-WIDE????
I am sure there are many that consider this an innocent bill, because it's only target is assault weapons and high cap. mags.!!! Ignorance or indifference (doesn't affect me) of the content will come as a surprise to those choosing to remain that way. (As it has in Illinois.) Then one day, in the very near future, they will be confused when the authorities show up to take their hunting rifles, handguns, everything!!!!
OBTW: ONLY when there are massive out-cries of "FOUL", by the membership, do you see such action as you refer to above by the NRA!!! Then they milk that action for all it's worth.
I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!!
I will use your own words to show you how far away from reality you (and others here) really are.
When advocating or fighting for constitutional rights (gun rights, etc) do you routinely go where you sense you will have little or no support? Keeping in mind that you and the NRA have limited resources and have to carefully direct and use those resources? Well, for decades the majority of people in Ill, especially Cook County and Chicago, have continued to vote rabid anti-gun politicians into office. That is the main reason Ill is one of only two states that does not offer its citizens some sort of CCW license. That is the main reason that Ill is one of the most gun unfriendly states in America. Yet in spite of this you, and others here, want to condemn the NRA for not spending their limited time and resources and marching into Ill and saving those citizens from themselves?.
How unreasonable.
BTW, please refresh my memory. You often post what you WILL NOT do for gun rights. I.E. you will not join or support the NRA. It is easy for someone to say what they will not do. Please remind me of what you HAVE AND WILL DO FOR GUN RIGHTS.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by Wagon Wheel
I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!!
I will use your own words to show you how far away from reality you (and others here) really are.
When advocating or fighting for constitutional rights (gun rights, etc) do you routinely go where you sense you will have little or no support? Keeping in mind that you and the NRA have limited resources and have to carefully direct and use those resources? Well, for decades the majority of people in Ill, especially Cook County and Chicago, have continued to vote rabid anti-gun politicians into office. That is the main reason Ill is one of only two states that does not offer its citizens some sort of CCW license. That is the main reason that Ill is one of the most gun unfriendly states in America. Yet in spite of this you, and others here, want to condemn the NRA for not spending their limited time and resources and marching into Ill and saving those citizens from themselves?.
How unreasonable.
BTW, please refresh my memory. You often post what you WILL NOT do for gun rights. I.E. you will not join or support the NRA. It is easy for someone to say what they will not do. Please remind me of what you HAVE AND WILL DO FOR GUN RIGHTS.
Still asking questions, eh TR, and still not answering a number of outstanding, previously asked ones I see.[:o)]
"I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!! "
And the NRA is a registered VOTER in which precinct in Illinois?
You claim to be a big picture guy, but you fail to see the whole picture; namely, that the VOTERS in Illinois put the politicians in place to steal their rights, and they got what they VOTED FOR!
Comments
Thank you. I guess I screwed it up again.
Highball:
Without further responses to gage effect, I guess I'll digress and explain. Apparently, you liked the "Gray - Grey" Area comments, and you obviously picked up on the variant spelling, thank you. It was not a typo on my part!! Rather a subliminal message that even the "word" Gray or Grey, you choose, is not well defined. Isn't that ironic!! Neither spelling is totally right, yet neither is wrong. Another example of a Gray/Grey area.
Now that is funny!
Pickenup,.......I learned my lesson, and I know what you are all about now. You will never hear another "episode" from me like before.
I have been spending some time on another site,........as it is tiring what happens here, on OTHER forums, but that is the end of my comment on that.
I wished that the proverbial "petition" could have gone somewhere, but was not surprised at the disagreements.
As I said before,.........I am a member of the NRA through November of 2008.
It will most likely end there,............and it also may not matter, as there is a good chance that we could be well on our way to a totally different nation by then.
I still hope not,........but it ain't looking good folks![}:)]
tr fox:
quote:Please do not let your rabid hatred of the NRA cause you to make foolish comments. The pro-gun side of this case WAS VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL. So in that regard, how and why do you throw any blame at the NRA? Besides, the city of Washington, D.C., the anti-gun losing side BTW, will probably appeal the pro-gun decision to the US Supreme Court. Of course, if D.C. doesn't appeal the case I am sure you, and many others here, will find some way to blame the NRA.
"Rabid Hatred"???? Nothing could be further from the truth!!!! IF you knew me, you would realize that I am the most laid-back person you will EVER meet. I can get along with anyone, even stupid. The world of "Rabid Hatred" is reserved for fanatics. I don't even "Hate" them. I empathize with them. They are the product of years of conditioning, brainwashing and propaganda; weak, mindless, followers of Powerful People with an agenda
No, what I have is, what some would label, a character flaw. I analyze the facts. I delve into trends, compare them with current events and avoid the `Talking Points" used to make an argument. I think for myself. I have a propensity to avoid the gray areas. Grey is the realm of the elites and politicians. Rather, a wise man will look at the overall picture and SEE the black or white for what it is. The gray interpretation, those for public consumption, will inevitably leave out the most important details, the down side, the things they don't want you to know. Grey is the tool of deceit and divisiveness!! You and I can't afford to live there!!! None of us can!!!!
Given Gray, YOU see the White in the D.C. case, using it as an example of a victory for D.C. gun owners. IF only viewed in the short term, with blinders, I can see how you could come to that conclusion. A SMALL Victory that will benefit D.C. gun owners and has the anti's running for cover.
I on the other-hand see the BLACK in this "Victory". By derailing a review by the Supreme Court this "Victory" will NEVER, and this would be the best chance, result in the 1st TRUE precedent to uphold the 2nd Amendment for what it is, an individual Right!!! So, once again, a compromise that benefits the few, at the expense of the majority!!! AND, Now, all those guns/gun-owners in D.C. can/will be accounted for. And, OBTW, the anti's aren't running, they just moved on to greener pastures!!
The NRA is not alone in this and my real question is why did they expose their hand and try to derail the appeal in the first place? An appeal to the Supreme Court will/would, most likely not happen anyway, for many reasons. The anti's find this one too difficult to defend if the Supreme reviews it. They can make an argument all day long, for gun registration and background checks however, they are at a lose to defend denying an individual the right to protect themselves. And that was the basis of the suit. I think D.C., under pressure from the left, will suck this up, just rewrite their laws, and never file their appeal. The backlash would devastate the grand successes, now being perpetrated throughout the country under the guise of current law.
I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!!
I have said it, of myself, before, at times I lack tact and diplomacy. The reason? I have a rule that I live by; "If I can't speak frankly to my friends, and likewise, then we are not friends." My friends know they will not hurt my feelings by telling me the truth, and likewise. Disagreement can spawn healthy debate and dispose of hidden resentments. Brutal Honesty is the best policy, as it makes you come face to face with your inadequacies. I, personally, have no grand illusions because I have good friends. As is human nature, it prevents you from placing yourself on a pedestal. The NRA sits atop a very high pedestal, of deceit. I feel no animosity toward you for your stand in support of the NRA, I just don't agree. And, if I didn't consider you a friend I wouldn't waste my time trying to make you see the error in the blind confidence you have that every victory is something good. We're still taking about an infringement on the 2nd Amendment!!
Blind Allegiances, to any cause, is reason for concern. Healthy skepticism must be applied to everything that comes from lobbyists and the Government, because they have an agenda that, in the long term, is only "Self-serving", rather than for the public good. We The People must wake up and do some thinking for ourselves and quit relying upon the Interpretations (The Gray) offered up by the Lobbyists and the Government Elites. They are leading us, willingly in most instances, down the path of self-destruction.
My call is not for the demise of the NRA. I, instead, would rather piss-off the membership by letting them know they have been deceived and betrayed. The case for misrepresentation by the NRA, as a 2nd Amendment Advocate/Supporter, is very hard to deny. They have a long history that either attests to the fact that they have no understanding of the 2nd Amendment OR that is NOT their main agenda. Either way; Not someone I want as my mouthpiece. The ultimate success or failure of the NRA can only be decided by its membership. They either unite under ONE FLAG (Protect ALL guns and the 2nd Amendment) AND DEMAND a change in policy OR they seek other representation. I've made mine.
The bottom line is that the 2nd Amendment is an easy target. The politico's can get away with just about anything they want and have willing accomplices to boot. The even greater danger is that it all goes unchallenged and, written into these unconstitutional laws, are infringements on other Amendments. Upon other Rights, guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Amendments that, otherwise, would be off limits and if attacked directly would create a public outcry. Throughout their history, and all the elections you mentioned, why has there never been a Ron Paul in charge? Could it be that the nomination and election process is as corrupt as that in the Federal Government?? Ignorance, indifference, self-gratification and the ME first mentality WILL be our Demise.
Up-Dates to D.C. Gun Ban.
9 May 2007
Click here for details
17 May 2007
Click here for details
Web Search Page With More Information and Background:
Click here for details
Do you think any of this would be possible without NRA support????
Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois [Free Republic]
Submitted on: July 17, 2001 Story and comments:
Click here for details
Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois September 8 2004
Click here for details
Registered GUN CONFISCATION BEGINS - Herald-Mail Forums
Click here for details
Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois
Illinois State Rifle Association ^ Story and comments:
Posted on 04/27/2007
Click here for details
Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois
Posted: Fri May 04, 2007
Click here for details
(Edited to shorten links ONLY)
In bold above. Even Superman can't be in every place where he is needed. You condemn the NRA for failures in Illinois, yet you give no credit for the NRA and the SAF being the ONLY entities who took legal action to get lawful gun owners guns returned during the Katrina Hurricane confistication in New Orleans. And then the NRA went on to lobby to pass laws in several states (it is trying for all states) that would prohibit the government from doing that confistication again.
All I see is complaints about what the NRA does not do. I rarely, if ever, see any appreciation for what the NRA does.
quote:In bold above. Even Superman can't be in every place where he is needed. You condemn the NRA for failures in Illinois, yet you give no credit for the NRA and the SAF being the ONLY entities who took legal action to get lawful gun owners guns returned during the Katrina Hurricane confistication in New Orleans. And then the NRA went on to lobby to pass laws in several states (it is trying for all states) that would prohibit the government from doing that confistication again.
All I see is complaints about what the NRA does not do. I rarely, if ever, see any appreciation for what the NRA does.
You are indeed, a hard sell. You miss the point completely. The real/perceived successes are well advertised and embraced by the membership and gun owners as a whole. They actually believe, or perceive, the NRA is there to support their right to keep and bear arms. Why dwell on the bones they throw to maintain that image? You, along with thousands of others, have sucked that up hook, line and sinker. Why would I blow their horn if my objective were to expose the facts that blatantly say otherwise? To document NRA support of legislation that strips, or at least further restricts their rights, rather than supports the 2nd Amendment or the RTKABA's.
I don't see the Katrina "Victory" doing Illinois gun owners any good. Do You?? A hollow victory at best, most will never see their firearms (or compensation) again!!! It was more of a PR victory than anything else!!!
New, ever expanding, wider sweeping, "Laws" have precedence over that short-lived victory. Again, passed with NRA support!! (Directly or indirectly.) Condoning an action, by inaction, is the same as supporting that action!!! Unfortunately the NRA doesn't understand that either.
Did the NRA oppose SB16, the Daley "Assault Weapons" ban. A Carbon copy of H.R.1022??? What will it take to get the NRA to oppose H.R.1022 (or 297 for that fact) or will this sweeping "Assault Weapons Ban" fly under the radar as well.. And then the Gestapo comes knocking NATION-WIDE????
I am sure there are many that consider this an innocent bill, because it's only target is assault weapons and high cap. mags.!!! Ignorance or indifference (doesn't affect me) of the content will come as a surprise to those choosing to remain that way. (As it has in Illinois.) Then one day, in the very near future, they will be confused when the authorities show up to take their hunting rifles, handguns, everything!!!!
OBTW: ONLY when there are massive out-cries of "FOUL", by the membership, do you see such action as you refer to above by the NRA!!! Then they milk that action for all it's worth.
I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!!
I will use your own words to show you how far away from reality you (and others here) really are.
When advocating or fighting for constitutional rights (gun rights, etc) do you routinely go where you sense you will have little or no support? Keeping in mind that you and the NRA have limited resources and have to carefully direct and use those resources? Well, for decades the majority of people in Ill, especially Cook County and Chicago, have continued to vote rabid anti-gun politicians into office. That is the main reason Ill is one of only two states that does not offer its citizens some sort of CCW license. That is the main reason that Ill is one of the most gun unfriendly states in America. Yet in spite of this you, and others here, want to condemn the NRA for not spending their limited time and resources and marching into Ill and saving those citizens from themselves?.
How unreasonable.
BTW, please refresh my memory. You often post what you WILL NOT do for gun rights. I.E. you will not join or support the NRA. It is easy for someone to say what they will not do. Please remind me of what you HAVE AND WILL DO FOR GUN RIGHTS.
quote:Originally posted by Wagon Wheel
I haven't seen the NRA demanding the return of firearms in Illinois or speaking out against the obvious violations involved in this confiscation process. AND YOU NEVER WILL!! WHY???? Because they have supported EVERY ONE of the Unconstitutional Laws that made these confiscations possible!!!!
I will use your own words to show you how far away from reality you (and others here) really are.
When advocating or fighting for constitutional rights (gun rights, etc) do you routinely go where you sense you will have little or no support? Keeping in mind that you and the NRA have limited resources and have to carefully direct and use those resources? Well, for decades the majority of people in Ill, especially Cook County and Chicago, have continued to vote rabid anti-gun politicians into office. That is the main reason Ill is one of only two states that does not offer its citizens some sort of CCW license. That is the main reason that Ill is one of the most gun unfriendly states in America. Yet in spite of this you, and others here, want to condemn the NRA for not spending their limited time and resources and marching into Ill and saving those citizens from themselves?.
How unreasonable.
BTW, please refresh my memory. You often post what you WILL NOT do for gun rights. I.E. you will not join or support the NRA. It is easy for someone to say what they will not do. Please remind me of what you HAVE AND WILL DO FOR GUN RIGHTS.
Still asking questions, eh TR, and still not answering a number of outstanding, previously asked ones I see.[:o)]
And the NRA is a registered VOTER in which precinct in Illinois?
You claim to be a big picture guy, but you fail to see the whole picture; namely, that the VOTERS in Illinois put the politicians in place to steal their rights, and they got what they VOTED FOR!