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quote:Originally posted by slumlord44
tr fox
It is always a pleasure to see your words of logic amongst those who attack and defame.
Logic?? Is this what you call logic??
Saying that because of the NRA we ONLY have 30,000 gun laws, but without them, we would have 60,000 of them is like a doctor saying, "Well, we had to amputate both of your arms and inserted a feeding tube, but hey, you're lucky to still be alive, right??"
Americans today are drowning in an ocean of lies. Virtually everything they think they know -- about history, about economics, about the Constitution and the law, about a hundred other things -- is wrong.
The shameful truth about the National Rifle Association, for example, is that there seems to be some kind of mutually beneficial -- symbiotic -- relationship between that group, which would like you to believe it was created to protect the Second Amendment right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the agency that enforces federal gun laws, the notorious Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
Neither could exist without the other to prop it up.
The BATFE needs the NRA to keep resisting its agenda (or at least appearing to do so) so it can whimper to Congress that it needs more money, more manpower, more machinery, and most of all, more leeway with regard to its habitual violations of its victims' Constitutional rights.
Similarly, the NRA needs the BATFE to frighten its membership with (not to mention prospective members), using the violent and corrupt federal agency as a bogey-man, and its well-known illegal depredations and terror tactics to extract more money from those who foolishly believe the NRA can protect them -- or even has an interest in doing so.
From time to time, both sides go through the motions of holding well-publicized Congressional hearings so that the NRA and its pet politicians can pretend to shock and horror at what BATFE does (something they must actually hear about on a daily basis), when their real purpose is to enhance its evil image as a credible threat to gunowners.
In 1968, the NRA "signed off" on Thomas Dodd's Nazi-inspired Gun Control Act, a story of deceit and treachery we've told here before - as covered in the book "Gateway to Tyranny". (JPFO discovered this nasty connection, and that Dodd requested a translation of Hitler's gun laws from the Library of Congress.) And never forget how the NRA actually helped resurrect the Brady Bill (the whole story is told at http://www.rmgo.org/brady.shtml ) -- under which you must now beg for and receive the government's permission to buy a gun -- after it was considered to be as dead as a doornail in Congress.
The very existence of the BATFE, and therefore everything it does, violates the Second Amendment, and is therefore illegal. And yet, at http://www.jpfo.org/pdf/nraletter.pdf you can see for yourself, in the NRA's own words, how and why it defends the existence of this criminal gang, and what the more highly principled Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, has to say about that. Vin Suprynowicz, columnist and assistant editorial page editor at the Las Vegas Review Journal simply calls the NRA "the world's oldest and largest gun control organization".
While it often calls publically for BATFE reforms (that turn out to be empty rhetoric because the agency's value as an NRA fundraising device must never be compromised), the NRA has never called for -- and will never call for -- abolition of this unconstitutional agency, repeal of the tangled mass of unconstitutional laws it enforces, or even such badly-needed interim reforms as standardized, published firearms testing procedures, and fully recorded tests, accessible to public review, crucial issues over which perfectly innocent, law- abiding Americans are presently wasting huge chunks of their lives in prison.
Read that letter again: http://www.jpfo.org/pdf/nraletter.pdf and see the terrible truth. The NRA doesn't care at all about the Second Amendment, the Constitution, the rights and safety of its members, or even the individuals rotting in jail thanks the NRA indifference and inaction. All the NRA cares about is membership money, tax-free contributions, expensive advertising in its magazines from cowardly, compromising corporations (as opposed to smaller gunmakers who truly believe in the Second Amendment), benefits packages and "golden parachutes" for its executives, and its obscene relationship with the BATFE.
And now Thomas Jefferson's "long train of abuses and usurpations" -- it's an express, these days -- has blasted past yet another set of warning signals. The latest in the NRA's seemingly endless catalog of insults and injuries to gun owners and to the Bill of Rights in general occurred when a concerned individual wrote to them about a court case in which an extremely dangerous precedent has recently been set.
The concerned individual was Len Savage, gun designer, firearms expert witness, and the proprietor of Historic Arms LLC. What he said was:
"Yesterday the government ... redefined what a machine gun is: any firearm that malfunctions and fires more than one round before jamming."
"Judge Clevert (I am told) stated that it does not matter what ammunition, or what error rate ATF testing has, or that a malfunction occurred, or even if it required ATF to modify the firearm, just that more than one round be fired per function of the trigger.
"Every firearm in possession of your membership is a 'machine gun' under this narrow interpretation. This is scientific fact, not my opinion. For example:
* A double barrel shotgun firing both barrels with a single trigger pull;
* A Colt single action loaded with thin-primer ammo (the pierced primer will 'fan' the hammer with gas pressure). Look up Georgia machine gun statute, they exempted it by stating a machine gun must fire more than 6 shots per function of the trigger;
* The ATF Firearms Technology Branch can test a rifle 100 different times; if they can manipulate it just once out of 100, you're indicted.
"The NRA's Jason Ouimet has been aware of this situation at ATF since before the congressional hearings on 'the Virginia gun show incident'. I was supposed to testify at the hearings about the ATF testing issues at that time. Much to my frustration, the hearing I was supposed to testify at was canceled. According to Jason, it was [the] NRA who pulled the plug on me.
"Now that the whole of the NRA membership is in jeopardy just by owning a firearm, [are] Wayne LaPierre, Chris Cox, and the NRA board going to do something about this during this week's convention?
"Please pass this on to them:
* Words will not be sufficient. If this gets "unplugged", [if] the NRA refuses to address this issue, I will [have] no choice but to go to the media with documents and e-mails from [the] NRA that were generated during the last round of hearings. I will pull back the rug and show the world where [the] NRA swept this mess under [it] to hide it.
"Please forgive my abrupt and obtuse attitude. It is born of frustration [with the] deaf ears of the NRA leadership. I am there if I can to help the NRA, thus to date the NRA have refused to address this.
"My question to NRA leadership:
"Is this weekend's convention going to be your finest hour, or will this be noted in history as the beginning of the end of the NRA?
"Respectfully,
"Len Savage "Historic Arms LLC"
Len's letter was answered by somebody named Jason Ouimet (be sure to write to him at JOuimet@nrahq.org -- for as long as that e-mail address remains good) described as the NRA "federal liaison":
"Len, "You sent me an email not long ago titled 'olive branch' where you indicated that you wanted to be able to have an open dialogue with me and keep me posted on relevant firearms, issues, cases, etc. and I agreed. However, in this email you took a nasty, blatantly FALSE swipe at me and the NRA, and sent it to other people I don't even know. So from this point forward consider our relationship terminated. Do not call or email me again in the future. "Jason"
Again, Ouimet's address is JOuimet@nrahq.org -- until he changes it.
Len wrote back:
"Jason,
"Swipe?
"By the way those 'unknown people' are on the NRA legislative action committee. As a Federal liaison you don't know them?
"Cut the crap, Jason, when is the last time you took my calls or answered a voice mail to call me back?
"Len Savage
Clearly, this desk-warming, chair-polishing flunky needs to be reminded of his proper place in the scheme of things. Every gun owner -- this means you -- is in grave danger as a result of this ruling, which makes it extremely risky even to get caught taking a broken gun to a gunsmith for repair. He is not permitted to treat the individuals who write to him -- especially those who are attempting to help him -- like unruly peasants being disrespectful to their feudal Lord and Master.
At least not yet. I disagree with Len Savage about "the beginning of the end of the NRA". Their future looks pretty darned sunshiny to me.
High on the list of Things I Know But Cannot Prove is that this court ruling -- which we'd otherwise be inclined to dismiss as insane or corrupt -- is deliberately intended to achieve a larger purpose. If any gun can suddenly and mysteriously become a machinegun, then new regulations will be required to force gun owners to bring their guns in for an annual inspection to make sure they haven't been up to no good.
And when these annual inspections, to make sure your single action sixgun hasn't mutated into a machinegun, exhaust the resources of the BATFE, you can bet the inspection will wind up being done by bright- eyed and bushy-tailled volunteers from the NRA. Just as when our guns all have to be stowed in lockers at the local gun club we're required to become members of, they'll be NRA lockers at an NRA-sanctioned club.
What can be done? At this stage, plenty. CNN's Lou Dobbs has been covering this mess. Catch up with the latest by Googling him and Olofson. Then write thanking him for his principled stance on this issue.
Learn who your representative on the NRA board of directors is and write to him or her demanding the same kind of principled behavior -- and, of course, that Jason Ouimet be fired. Copy the entire NRA leadership. Make everything you send to them an open letter and, together with whatever reply you get, spam it out as far and wide as possible.
Perhaps you'd even like to take these issues up with the NRA's leadership in person, at their 137th Annual "Meetings and Exhibits" in Louisville, Kentucky, but you'll have to hurry -- the event begins May 16th.
Stop feeding the fraud. If you're an annual NRA member, or your membership is up for renewal, withhold your money until the vile, corrupt collusion between the NRA and the BATFE, this disgusting mutual love-fest -- and the dire consequences it has for every gun owner -- comes to an end. Make no more contributions until the NRA stops making excuses and the BATFE is abolished. Work to remove any board member who does not actively strive to abolish the BATFE. Demand that they stop endorsing politicians who are not true Second Amendment supporters.
If you want to help abolish the BATFE yourself, get a copy of The Gang http://www.thegangmovie.com/, the JPFO documentary exposing its long history of irresponsible, malicious, and criminal action. Study it, show it to your friends, at gun club and other meetings. Likewise, at http://shop.jpfo.org/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=8, the message of Innocents Betrayed encourages a greater understanding of how evil "gun control" -- and the acts of genocide it makes possible -- truly is. Learn how governments have historically deprived their own people of firearms -- and then wiped them from the face of the earth.
Undoubtedly the most effective way, in the long run, to deal with entities like the BATFE is a program we call "Take Your Money Back" which will abolish the federal income tax and federal regulatory agencies would be defunded. The obvious place to start is with those agencies that -- like the BATFE -- are a violation of the Constitution. Go to www.TakeYourMoneyBack.com and see.
Finally, as an NRA Life member for the past 35 years, I find that I have several membership cards that have been practically screaming to be ceremonially burned for the benefit of YouTube. I can only imagine -- and savor -- the reactions by various segments of the press and public (not to mention the NRA) if I am joined by even a hundred other angry NRA members, let alone perhaps thousands or tens of thousands.
Watch who steps forward to defends this incestuous NRA/BATFE affair. They are neither your friends, nor friends of the Second Amendment. Could be it's time for a little of that revolution Jefferson wrote about. --
The NRA does a good job with the shooting programs.
They should stick to that .
They are a failure at gun rights .
It is manditory in our club that we are members .
We have a set number of life memberships in the club ,and I want to get on the list for one.
Then I hope to burn my card and just work their youth programs .
Being that they managed to have their name attached to every major gun kontrol law of the 20th century, I'd say they are using their money effectively to reach their goals.
quote:Originally posted by dsmith
Being that they managed to have their name attached to every major gun kontrol law of the 20th century, I'd say they are using their money effectively to reach their goals.
Have to ask myself what there goals are at times .
Comments
It is always a pleasure to see your words of logic amongst those who attack and defame.
tr fox
It is always a pleasure to see your words of logic amongst those who attack and defame.
Logic?? Is this what you call logic??
Saying that because of the NRA we ONLY have 30,000 gun laws, but without them, we would have 60,000 of them is like a doctor saying, "Well, we had to amputate both of your arms and inserted a feeding tube, but hey, you're lucky to still be alive, right??"
That is some very strained logic, right there....
The shameful truth about the National Rifle Association, for example, is that there seems to be some kind of mutually beneficial -- symbiotic -- relationship between that group, which would like you to believe it was created to protect the Second Amendment right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the agency that enforces federal gun laws, the notorious Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
Neither could exist without the other to prop it up.
The BATFE needs the NRA to keep resisting its agenda (or at least appearing to do so) so it can whimper to Congress that it needs more money, more manpower, more machinery, and most of all, more leeway with regard to its habitual violations of its victims' Constitutional rights.
Similarly, the NRA needs the BATFE to frighten its membership with (not to mention prospective members), using the violent and corrupt federal agency as a bogey-man, and its well-known illegal depredations and terror tactics to extract more money from those who foolishly believe the NRA can protect them -- or even has an interest in doing so.
From time to time, both sides go through the motions of holding well-publicized Congressional hearings so that the NRA and its pet politicians can pretend to shock and horror at what BATFE does (something they must actually hear about on a daily basis), when their real purpose is to enhance its evil image as a credible threat to gunowners.
In 1968, the NRA "signed off" on Thomas Dodd's Nazi-inspired Gun Control Act, a story of deceit and treachery we've told here before - as covered in the book "Gateway to Tyranny". (JPFO discovered this nasty connection, and that Dodd requested a translation of Hitler's gun laws from the Library of Congress.) And never forget how the NRA actually helped resurrect the Brady Bill (the whole story is told at http://www.rmgo.org/brady.shtml ) -- under which you must now beg for and receive the government's permission to buy a gun -- after it was considered to be as dead as a doornail in Congress.
The very existence of the BATFE, and therefore everything it does, violates the Second Amendment, and is therefore illegal. And yet, at http://www.jpfo.org/pdf/nraletter.pdf you can see for yourself, in the NRA's own words, how and why it defends the existence of this criminal gang, and what the more highly principled Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, has to say about that. Vin Suprynowicz, columnist and assistant editorial page editor at the Las Vegas Review Journal simply calls the NRA "the world's oldest and largest gun control organization".
While it often calls publically for BATFE reforms (that turn out to be empty rhetoric because the agency's value as an NRA fundraising device must never be compromised), the NRA has never called for -- and will never call for -- abolition of this unconstitutional agency, repeal of the tangled mass of unconstitutional laws it enforces, or even such badly-needed interim reforms as standardized, published firearms testing procedures, and fully recorded tests, accessible to public review, crucial issues over which perfectly innocent, law- abiding Americans are presently wasting huge chunks of their lives in prison.
Read that letter again: http://www.jpfo.org/pdf/nraletter.pdf and see the terrible truth. The NRA doesn't care at all about the Second Amendment, the Constitution, the rights and safety of its members, or even the individuals rotting in jail thanks the NRA indifference and inaction. All the NRA cares about is membership money, tax-free contributions, expensive advertising in its magazines from cowardly, compromising corporations (as opposed to smaller gunmakers who truly believe in the Second Amendment), benefits packages and "golden parachutes" for its executives, and its obscene relationship with the BATFE.
And now Thomas Jefferson's "long train of abuses and usurpations" -- it's an express, these days -- has blasted past yet another set of warning signals. The latest in the NRA's seemingly endless catalog of insults and injuries to gun owners and to the Bill of Rights in general occurred when a concerned individual wrote to them about a court case in which an extremely dangerous precedent has recently been set.
The concerned individual was Len Savage, gun designer, firearms expert witness, and the proprietor of Historic Arms LLC. What he said was:
"Yesterday the government ... redefined what a machine gun is: any firearm that malfunctions and fires more than one round before jamming."
[The court case in which this happened is US v. Olofson; trial transcipts are now available at http://www.jpfo.org/pdf02/olofson-trial-tran-2-0f-3.pdf and http://www.jpfo.org/pdf02/olofson-trial-tran-3-0f-3.pdf. You may also want to listen to Len Savage discussing related legal issues on "Talkin' to America"].
"Judge Clevert (I am told) stated that it does not matter what ammunition, or what error rate ATF testing has, or that a malfunction occurred, or even if it required ATF to modify the firearm, just that more than one round be fired per function of the trigger.
"Every firearm in possession of your membership is a 'machine gun' under this narrow interpretation. This is scientific fact, not my opinion. For example:
* A double barrel shotgun firing both barrels with a single trigger pull;
* A Colt single action loaded with thin-primer ammo (the pierced primer will 'fan' the hammer with gas pressure). Look up Georgia machine gun statute, they exempted it by stating a machine gun must fire more than 6 shots per function of the trigger;
* The ATF Firearms Technology Branch can test a rifle 100 different times; if they can manipulate it just once out of 100, you're indicted.
"The NRA's Jason Ouimet has been aware of this situation at ATF since before the congressional hearings on 'the Virginia gun show incident'. I was supposed to testify at the hearings about the ATF testing issues at that time. Much to my frustration, the hearing I was supposed to testify at was canceled. According to Jason, it was [the] NRA who pulled the plug on me.
"Now that the whole of the NRA membership is in jeopardy just by owning a firearm, [are] Wayne LaPierre, Chris Cox, and the NRA board going to do something about this during this week's convention?
"Please pass this on to them:
* Words will not be sufficient. If this gets "unplugged", [if] the NRA refuses to address this issue, I will [have] no choice but to go to the media with documents and e-mails from [the] NRA that were generated during the last round of hearings. I will pull back the rug and show the world where [the] NRA swept this mess under [it] to hide it.
"Please forgive my abrupt and obtuse attitude. It is born of frustration [with the] deaf ears of the NRA leadership. I am there if I can to help the NRA, thus to date the NRA have refused to address this.
"My question to NRA leadership:
"Is this weekend's convention going to be your finest hour, or will this be noted in history as the beginning of the end of the NRA?
"Respectfully,
"Len Savage "Historic Arms LLC"
Len's letter was answered by somebody named Jason Ouimet (be sure to write to him at JOuimet@nrahq.org -- for as long as that e-mail address remains good) described as the NRA "federal liaison":
"Len, "You sent me an email not long ago titled 'olive branch' where you indicated that you wanted to be able to have an open dialogue with me and keep me posted on relevant firearms, issues, cases, etc. and I agreed. However, in this email you took a nasty, blatantly FALSE swipe at me and the NRA, and sent it to other people I don't even know. So from this point forward consider our relationship terminated. Do not call or email me again in the future. "Jason"
Again, Ouimet's address is JOuimet@nrahq.org -- until he changes it.
Len wrote back:
"Jason,
"Swipe?
"By the way those 'unknown people' are on the NRA legislative action committee. As a Federal liaison you don't know them?
"Cut the crap, Jason, when is the last time you took my calls or answered a voice mail to call me back?
"Len Savage
Clearly, this desk-warming, chair-polishing flunky needs to be reminded of his proper place in the scheme of things. Every gun owner -- this means you -- is in grave danger as a result of this ruling, which makes it extremely risky even to get caught taking a broken gun to a gunsmith for repair. He is not permitted to treat the individuals who write to him -- especially those who are attempting to help him -- like unruly peasants being disrespectful to their feudal Lord and Master.
At least not yet. I disagree with Len Savage about "the beginning of the end of the NRA". Their future looks pretty darned sunshiny to me.
High on the list of Things I Know But Cannot Prove is that this court ruling -- which we'd otherwise be inclined to dismiss as insane or corrupt -- is deliberately intended to achieve a larger purpose. If any gun can suddenly and mysteriously become a machinegun, then new regulations will be required to force gun owners to bring their guns in for an annual inspection to make sure they haven't been up to no good.
And when these annual inspections, to make sure your single action sixgun hasn't mutated into a machinegun, exhaust the resources of the BATFE, you can bet the inspection will wind up being done by bright- eyed and bushy-tailled volunteers from the NRA. Just as when our guns all have to be stowed in lockers at the local gun club we're required to become members of, they'll be NRA lockers at an NRA-sanctioned club.
What can be done? At this stage, plenty. CNN's Lou Dobbs has been covering this mess. Catch up with the latest by Googling him and Olofson. Then write thanking him for his principled stance on this issue.
Learn who your representative on the NRA board of directors is and write to him or her demanding the same kind of principled behavior -- and, of course, that Jason Ouimet be fired. Copy the entire NRA leadership. Make everything you send to them an open letter and, together with whatever reply you get, spam it out as far and wide as possible.
Perhaps you'd even like to take these issues up with the NRA's leadership in person, at their 137th Annual "Meetings and Exhibits" in Louisville, Kentucky, but you'll have to hurry -- the event begins May 16th.
See http://www.nraam.org
Stop feeding the fraud. If you're an annual NRA member, or your membership is up for renewal, withhold your money until the vile, corrupt collusion between the NRA and the BATFE, this disgusting mutual love-fest -- and the dire consequences it has for every gun owner -- comes to an end. Make no more contributions until the NRA stops making excuses and the BATFE is abolished. Work to remove any board member who does not actively strive to abolish the BATFE. Demand that they stop endorsing politicians who are not true Second Amendment supporters.
If you want to help abolish the BATFE yourself, get a copy of The Gang http://www.thegangmovie.com/, the JPFO documentary exposing its long history of irresponsible, malicious, and criminal action. Study it, show it to your friends, at gun club and other meetings. Likewise, at http://shop.jpfo.org/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=8, the message of Innocents Betrayed encourages a greater understanding of how evil "gun control" -- and the acts of genocide it makes possible -- truly is. Learn how governments have historically deprived their own people of firearms -- and then wiped them from the face of the earth.
Undoubtedly the most effective way, in the long run, to deal with entities like the BATFE is a program we call "Take Your Money Back" which will abolish the federal income tax and federal regulatory agencies would be defunded. The obvious place to start is with those agencies that -- like the BATFE -- are a violation of the Constitution. Go to www.TakeYourMoneyBack.com and see.
Finally, as an NRA Life member for the past 35 years, I find that I have several membership cards that have been practically screaming to be ceremonially burned for the benefit of YouTube. I can only imagine -- and savor -- the reactions by various segments of the press and public (not to mention the NRA) if I am joined by even a hundred other angry NRA members, let alone perhaps thousands or tens of thousands.
Watch who steps forward to defends this incestuous NRA/BATFE affair. They are neither your friends, nor friends of the Second Amendment. Could be it's time for a little of that revolution Jefferson wrote about. --
L. Neil Smith
lneil@netzero.com
Thank you, it is posts like that, that make this site worth visiting and if you dont mind I am gonna steal that and post it in to the general forum.
Well done man, pat yourself on the back!
[;)]
Somebody buy that man a beer! That is one of the most informative posts I have ever seen on this website!
Thank you, it is posts like that, that make this site worth visiting and if you dont mind I am gonna steal that and post it in to the general forum.
Well done man, pat yourself on the back!
[;)]
Pat L Neil on the back. He wrote it. Better yet, buy his Books. "Leveraction Essays" is chock full of essays like the above.
Take a look at his page: http://www.lneilsmith.org/index.html
Based on the fact that Uncle Wayne receives a $900,000 plus salary, my answer is a strong NO!
They should stick to that .
They are a failure at gun rights .
It is manditory in our club that we are members .
We have a set number of life memberships in the club ,and I want to get on the list for one.
Then I hope to burn my card and just work their youth programs .
Being that they managed to have their name attached to every major gun kontrol law of the 20th century, I'd say they are using their money effectively to reach their goals.
Have to ask myself what there goals are at times .