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scopes- price vs. quality

joesjoes Member Posts: 484 ✭✭✭
edited January 2006 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
I shoot and load many rifles and calibers, most of them under "1 moa
and almost all of them with "lesser name scopes" with high varmit type magnifacion,And I have gone to high power rifle shoots(which the guys are shooting leupolds) what is the REAL difference besides the hugh price differnece? Scopes that I shoot incule are BSA, SIMMONS, TASCO. I can not see spending an extra $500.00 for lens quality or 2% more light transmission. joe
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Comments

  • HeavyBarrelHeavyBarrel Member Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wow, you must hunt and shoot only on sunny days at peak daylight hours with no clouds and no percipitation and don't use comeups for shooting beyond your zero, don't mind below average customer service and care less about a good warranty if anything goes wrong. by the way Leupolds are really good but their not a high end scope for the most part.
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  • bperdue21bperdue21 Member Posts: 1,457 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    you apparently have never looked through one. you get metal gears instead of plastic ones. you get a scope that will hold a zero. higher quality glass. higher quality materials. won't be made in china. i would rather buy something that i know will work flawlessly forever than something that might last a week, year or maybe as long as i need it with sub par quality control. i thought like you, but after picking up some mid level scopes like burris and bushnell elite (had a leupold, but did not like it) i won't be buying any more junk unless it is for a rimfire.

    I'm not an expert, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
    edited November -1
    Anyone who berates Leupold Scopes, does so to justify continued purchasing of junk scopes. Leupold is the starting level of higher end scopes...with Nikon and Burris trailing them. A buddy of mine with an extensive firearm collection has used junk scopes for years...with the same excuses that you and others use. He has finally seen the light. He has decided to put Leupolds on his nicer rifles and Nikons on the rest.

    Eric
    allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
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  • jasonjenningsjasonjennings Member Posts: 87 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got one of those winchesters for x-mas last year with the scope already mounted on it. I used it for deer and antelope hunting this year and the one thing that I missed from my leupolds that are on every other rifle I own was the light gathering in low light. I had to pass on a nice buck on opening morning cause I could see him in the shadows wiwth the naked eye, but couldn't put the crosshairs on him. I will be purchasing my fifth leupold asap for next year.
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  • joesjoes Member Posts: 484 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    guys, I have nearly 30 rifles and shoot all the time and have been shooting for nearly 25 years, so you are not giving advice to a rookie. I also varmit hunt (yes heavy at night, with clouds and overcast)with less expensive scopes. My question is "do you need a corvette to do 100mph or can you 100mph in in other cars as well that cost half as much ? Its the same reguadless of how you get there it's still 100mph." My point being 1/2 moa reguardless of daytime light conditions is as good as what can be expected from a factory out of the box rifle. I do not beleive that a leupold will help improve that group. Now do not get me wrong I have serval nikons and do see a difference in glass quality. I do not profess to be the best shot ever but would welcome anyone to shoot along with me (I live in Pa.-e-mail me) I will shoot a savage .243 in a model 12 (with no gunsmith work done to it) topped with a bsa contender with handloads. All I am saying is it possible to get the same results from a $150.00 scope?
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  • DubieDubie Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've seen guys with expensive scopes that couldn't hit a barn, and others that could put the eye out of a gopher at a hundred yards with crooked iron sights. I think its more what your comfortable with. I personaly don't use expensive scopes, or even a scope at all on my rifles, but then again I don't shoot overly expensive high end rifles either. I hit what I aim at, usualy in the general area where I want to hit it, and feel comfortable enough to aim a little high for those extra long shots. And I ain't realy into competitive shooting other then the odd game at a range.

    Sure, I've had some cheap scopes fall appart on the rare occasion. I have to re-zero every now and then (Which is fine. Gives me an excuse to blast off a few rounds). I'm also pretty sure the second I invest in a high quality scope/rifle combo, I'll change my tune in a hurry.

    Hope I helped somewhere in my ramblings,
    Dubie
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  • KX500KX500 Member Posts: 733 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is a subject that I've debated (mostly with myself) for years. I finally came to the conclusion that for guns that I will probably never hunt with, just about any scope brand it OK. I agree totally that most any thing will work well enough for range work. I really don't see the point of having $300 - $600 bolted to the top of a gun that is just going to punch paper.

    Granted, I'm a hunter first and a shooter second - shooting anytime is fun, but for me it is even more fun if it leads to hunting. And being that I really only hunt with shotguns & muzzleloaders (that do have a bit of recoil) scopes that are dependable are a must. Some of the cheaper brands have given less than satisfactory service in these applications.

    Because of this, I have gone to Leupolds on guns that I hunt with. They haven't failed me yet. But, I am far from a "It has to be a brand X or it is junk" type of guy. Although it does seem kinda silly to spend $ 1000'S on a hunt and put a $100 scope on your gun.

    Now for those who are primarily shooters and just must have Zeiss or Swarovski - cool. They make good stuff - I'm just not willing to pay for it.
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  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    to answer this one, you really need to spend time shooting for group and score. The Mirage factor, will QUICKLY seperate the cheap from the expensive. If you can't resolve mirage as well as the guy next to you, and he can run at higher power than you can, his glass is better. I traded away my leupold MK IV's for Nightforce NXS and ,my leupold hunting scopes for Burris. Leupolds are great, but I have other favored brands.

    Bottom line, if you are shooting for "acceptable" accuarcy, then buy what you want. When you are shooting paper for score or long distances, then the glass quality as well as adjustment integrity etc will pay for themselves time and again. the ability to resolve mirage does NOT come cheap. Neither does a bullet proof adjustment system.

    Been there, tried that, sold the cheap stuff.

    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
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  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    The reason the marketplace has more than one type and price scope is that based on an individuals environment, desires, finances and outside influences, each may have different choices. Just because one person opts for an inexpensive item and sees it as the optimum level of performance does not make him more fiscally responsible than the fellow that purchases the expensive item, nor does it make the later wiser in selecting a better product. Each person picks what they see as best for them. You don't need to seek approval from us for your preferences.
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  • roysclockgunroysclockgun Member Posts: 310 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For me, it all comes down to usage. I have only competed casually in competition and that was with un-scoped military rifles. I have shot a fair number of groundhogs and prairie dogs. For Varmint shooting, I have not seen any need to pay over $100 for a scope and have never been let down by that scope's performance in any sort of light or weather. Hunting deer or elk is another matter. Paying for a Burris Signature scope to top a deer rifle that I am shipping to the outfitter to use on a somewhat pricey hunt, is where I want every advantage, imagined or otherwise.
    Not long ago, Tasco scopes were made in Taiwan and were an excellent value. I have not seen the same quality in the Tasco scopes coming out of the Chi-com mainland. I believe that the mainland Chinese have the ability to produce top level scopes, as seen in their higher priced labels. But in the inexpensive scopes, the mainland Chinese must not be building in the same quality as did their cousins on Taiwan.

    roysclockgun
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  • ContacFrontContacFront Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Take your 25X Tasco and put it on a 1000yard line during heavy mirage and then look through a Loopy or Nightforce and you will see what the extra 1000.00 does for you.

    It is just not also the clarity of the glass but the durability of it. I am willing to bet if you took your BSA, Simmons, Tasco and did a BOX test you will see that the clicks do not always hold true.

    And have you ever seen the abuse a Nightforce can go through?

    You may have 30 rifles and been shooting for 25 years but there is no way you can put the scopes you have mentioned even in the same catagory as the high end stuff.

    Sure those low end optics will do the job at 100 yards or whatever but what will they do at 300 or 500 on days where mirage is so bad all you see is a blob?

    I am willing to bet I can take my NXS off my rifle and pound a Simmons into the ground and my NXS will still hold Zero. [:D]
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  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the NXS has been used to drive a nail in a 2"x4" and it held zero after being re-mounted[:D]

    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
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  • rquackrquack Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The Zeiss Conquest called out to me....."Try it, you'll like it."

    I've shot scopes of nominal quality all my life and last year bought my son in law a new Zeiss and a Rem 700 7mm mag as a wedding gift. I shot the rifle this summer to sight it in for him prior to deer season. The clarity of this scope is terrific, you can see bullet holes in your target thru the scope at mid power. Thru my Simmons, old (early 80's) Leu's and Swifts you need high magnification to get details. With the Zeiss lower magnification and a CLEAR look show the details. Higher magnification will "paper over" the shortcomings of many also ran scopes. But once you see the difference and shoot the difference and get accustomed to the difference, If you're like me, you'll be selling all of your old stuff and be on an upgrade program.
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  • cweeetcweeet Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    i absolutely think its possible to get the same results from cheaper scopes, but the question is for how long... im never afraid to leave the house with my nikon monarchs or leupolds and wonder if im gonna hit what im shooting, i have however seen a simmons take a big healthy crap on a 338 win before 1 box of shells was thru it.. what a hoot! that was enough to keep me from ever going cheap.. i think you probably dont shoot cheap rifles, and if you dont pay 50 % of what you paid for the rifle or more on the scope youre cheating your gun.
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  • dakotashooter2dakotashooter2 Member Posts: 6,186
    edited November -1
    You probably won't realize the difference in two scopes (or binos) unless you compare them side by side. I don't mean looking through both in the store. I mean waiting till a cloudy day then going to the store and asking the sales person to haul a few scopes outside for you. Actually you should make a trip on a sunny day too. Then you will really see the difference in quality. I would also be more inclined to put a more expensive scope on a gun that got heavy use year round. My "deer" rifle only gets dragged out every third or fourth season so it is hard to justify all that money just sitting there in a scope. The other place you will notice the difference is long range. Since I limit myself to 200 yards so I can still feel like I am hunting the game and no just shooting it more economical scopes are not an issue.
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  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dakotashooter2
    You probably won't realize the difference in two scopes (or binos) unless you compare them side by side. I don't mean looking through both in the store. I mean waiting till a cloudy day then going to the store and asking the sales person to haul a few scopes outside for you. Actually you should make a trip on a sunny day too. Then you will really see the difference in quality. I would also be more inclined to put a more expensive scope on a gun that got heavy use year round. My "deer" rifle only gets dragged out every third or fourth season so it is hard to justify all that money just sitting there in a scope. The other place you will notice the difference is long range. Since I limit myself to 200 yards so I can still feel like I am hunting the game and no just shooting it more economical scopes are not an issue.




    If you really want to "hunt game", try bowhunting[;)]...there's not much challenge with a rifle...UNLESS you get into long range hunting where it takes a LOT more skill. I bow hunt till it gets too cold to sit in a tree for 4 hours and then switch over to long range hunting.[:)]

    Eric
    allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
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  • BigoledudeBigoledude Member Posts: 39
    edited November -1
    Hey Joes

    I ran into a Leupold sales rep once in our local gun store. His answer to my question about price vs. performance was "15 minutes". Of course I didn't understand at first. He then explained that the light gathering capabilities of the Vari-X III at the time would give you about 15 extra minutes of shooting time at dusk or 15 minutes earlier at dawn.

    About two years after that, a buck walked out on me at near dusk under heavy cloudy skies. At that moment, not only would I have paid the $400.00 dollars to buy a scope I could see through, I would have paid $400.00 dollars to RENT one for just one shot at that Bigolebuck.

    Now, I don't know if the Leupold would have been able to perform under those conditions. But, I hate having to second-guess myself over the loss of a trophy.

    This discussion really touches home since we are having to replace all of our stuff since Katrina. And, we certainly can't afford Leupolds and Ziess' for a long while.

    I'd really like to know who offers the most glass-for-the-buck in the lesser expensive scopes?

    Thanks again Joes for your very generous offer of reloading stuff!

    If God is on my side, who can come against me!
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  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote: the NXS has been used to drive a nail in a 2"x4" and it held zero after being re-mounted[:D]


    [:D][:D][:D]
    JustC shame on you!

    Forgot to mention the hammer head, that drove that nail is about .045 wide.[:D]

    sniper.gif
    NRA Life Endowment Member

    Soquel.gif
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  • FEENIXFEENIX Member Posts: 10,559 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ... if it works for you and satisfied with the results ... go for it.
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  • martin3175martin3175 Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by martin3175
    Wow..a heated debate, so I'll throw in my '2 cents worth..' To use a quote I once heard "Buy the best you can afford, and you'll always be happy with it". I think that sums it up. Mid-level scopes like a Bushnell 4200, Zeiss Conquest, Nikon Monarch, Var-X III, etc, will generally fill any needs of an avid shooter. I have a Swarovski meg-buck scope, admittedly it took a while to save up the money, but 'I just had to have one'- it's great,however I could have purchased 2 just about as nice scopes for the money. Even if the midlevel lines are financially out of the question- look at a 3200 Elite,Sightron, Fullfield,etc. They have superior warranties and pretty decent optics.
    The debate over Leupold's quality vs dollars goes on. They're good scopes, no doubt, however, others in their price range will serve as well with easier to use power rings, some even have Rainguard coatings that work great,etc,,, but on the other side of the coin- Leupold has really good service,builds rugged products, and has a scope to fit any rifle....In other words- if you want one - get one ,,if not- buy another brand you like.
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  • sam77757sam77757 Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK ill throw a situation out there for ya.. A friend and my self were hunting together one evening the last week of rifle season here in VA. i had started out of the mountians without a deer. when we met back at the field leading to the truck there were 5 deer in the field 75-80 yards away he glassed the mand said there are two shooters in the bunch which one do you want? well using my bushnell elite i droped the bipods laid down and started to glass the field NO deer what where did they go? i asked there still there havent moved he said here look. With his VarX III I looked and lo and behold there they stood in plain view and once again i looked through my elite and nothing needless to say i now own 2 VarX III for my two hunting rifles and one Burris for my muzzleloader so i think there realy is a difference in low light conditions.not sure if i cointributed to the debate or not but
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  • martin3175martin3175 Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't get me wrong..I have several VX-III's and like them just fine..I also have a few 4200 Elites and honestly believe them to optically equal to the VX-III's.. (I also like the Rainguard ) That being said, these days it's down to which one - be it a Zeiss, Leupold, 4200, Pentax, Burris,etc- that "fits" the rifle best and is of proper magnification for its purpose .
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  • deceedecee Member Posts: 456 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    4200 Elite

    Top shelf

    Right up there with VXIII
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  • bperdue21bperdue21 Member Posts: 1,457 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    bigoledude, check out the burris fullfield or signature scopes. these are very underpriced as far as quality and reliability go.

    I'm not an expert, but i did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    FrancF, the actual 56mm bell of an NXS scope was used to drive the nail, then put back on the rifle and the "box test" was run. It hit the holes from the box test prior to it being removed. That is the meaning of "tactical" or "extreme".[;)] Matter of fact, here is the article http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/NightforceNXS.asp

    As for low light conditions, my Vari-x III's made way for Burris Signatures. To my eyes, the signature series is brighter when you need it.

    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
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  • ContacFrontContacFront Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Once you go with nice glass like Loopy, NF, S&B, and USO you will never go back.

    Now only does good glass allow you to pick things out in low light, mechanically function like its suppose to but it also allows the shooter to stay "in" the scope for longer periods of time without eye strain IMO.

    Remember no matter how nice your rifle shoots, you cant hit what you cant see. [:D]
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  • StealthStealth Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The best scopes I have for the money are the Super Sniper 10X and16X. about $320.00-$420.00.
    The clearest Rifle scope I have and have ever looked through is the XOTIC 4-16X56.$820.00 if you can find one.I never compared it to Zeiss-S&B-Swarovski.
    I think if your life is not on the line then you can get by with a $100.00-$200.00 scope as long as it holds zero without any problems.
    The higher price scopes are nice but you need to decide what you can use best, Cost vs Quality and then it dosentmatter if it is $50.00 or 500.00 as long as you can hit your target.[:)]

    Raptor
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  • ContacFrontContacFront Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "If your life is not on the line you can get by with a 100 - 200 dollar scope"

    Tell that to the benchrest and long range shooters.

    Rings cost 100.00 to 200.00

    Like I said before, you CAN'T HIT what you CAN'T SEE.

    I serious doubt a 200.00 scope is going to work well at 600yards on a sunny hot day. [:)]
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  • StealthStealth Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a 2.5-10X42 Tasco mil-dot scope that I paid about $70.00 for , Now I originaly bought it for my Ruger 10/22 but I mounted it on a new Winchester 70 Stealth .308 for testing and it worked so well that it has been on that gun for over 5 years now without loss of zero.
    This little scope has Mil Dot that seems to be properly spaced on 10X , The turrets don't sound or feel very good but they have performed thousands of wind and elevation combinations for shots out to 1000yards, Shots beyond that I have to hold over the 1000 yard zero.
    This cheap scope has always held zero and returned to zero, Its clarity is fair for the price but nothing compared to Leupold and I don't have any problems seeing MOA targets out to 1500 yards, if low light or heat waves are a problem I compromise by turning down the power for the shot.
    I may not shoot competition quality bench shooting but I have had my share of ?" @100yard or under groups with this set up and I have only encountered two other people at our little range that could give it a run for the money , they had much more expensive scopes.
    I tried its big brother the 6-24X42 and it failed on a 22.250 after only 3 weeks so I do NOT recommend this series of scope to other people.
    For $70.00 it has been a great deal.[:)]


    Raptor
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  • buddybbuddyb Member Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Steyr Pro Hunter with a Kahles scope that I hunt with.This year I took opening week off and hunted all week.The first couple of days it was raining,so I took my stainless Ruger 77 topped with a Simmons 44 mag scope.The Ruger-Simmons set up worked so well I have not used the Steyr any this year and we have a we have a 4 and a half month season in SC.I hunt at least twice a week.
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  • ContacFrontContacFront Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Stealth,

    I would love to see that Tasco on the 1K line and then try to pick up 15" targets at 1500yards with it.

    Sorry bud but I am going to have to throw the BS FLAG on this one.

    MOA Targets out to 1500 yards? MOA meaning 15" targets.

    Shooting out to 1500yards with a 308? What load?

    What model tasco is it? Shooting a 308 at 1K meaning you are going to need about 39MOA roughly to get out there. I don't know any 1" tube scope with that type of adjustment.

    1/2" @ 100yards is nice but that does not tell anything about the quality of the optics. Have you tried a BOX test with it?

    Hate to bust your balls man but I've looked through some serious optics and picking up targets at 1K in the field is hard but now you talking about MOA targets out to 1500yards with a Tasco?

    [xx(]
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  • StealthStealth Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't know why I am wasting my time answering you but I will try.
    My $70.00 Tasco is mounted to my rifle with a 20moa sloped base and the scope has ( with the base) 43 moa elevation travel because it is a 1 inch tube , only about 39 moa is actually usable , My XOTIC 4-16X56 has over 100moa travel wita a 30mm tube , now a true moa is about 1.047"at 100 yards so when I say moa I am talking in inches at 100 yards for clarity.
    At 1000 yards I use 36.5moa elevation or 146 clicks up or (2 turns+6minutes and 2 clicks )on this scope.
    That is not to hard to see on a 1 inch tube is it? When I shoot out to 1500 yards I set it for the 1000 yard zero first then I hold over 5 mils using the Mil-Dots , this is ware the reticule gets thick after the dots. The second longest shot ever recorded in South Viet Nam was in 1967.The weapon was the Remington Model 700 w/Redfield 3x9 scope The distance was1900 meters, distance and KIA was confirmed by a Marine 1st Lieutenant 1/5 the Shooter L/Cpl. Martin E. Berry 5th Marine Scout Sniper Platoon.
    Shooting at long ranges is a good test for you and your rifle but you will never understand how it can be done if you don't try it.
    My best 5 shot 1000 yard group with this scope was 6-7/8" on a nice day temp was about 76.[:D]

    Raptor
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  • roysclockgunroysclockgun Member Posts: 310 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am getting an inferiority complex!! I must be the only hunter in the world that cannot: shoot groups inside 10" @ 1000yds, buy rifles that all shoot under 1/2" groups right out of the box using factory ammo and any sort of scope from the $70 variety on up, kill running game at 500 yds while standing and firing off hand and any number of world class accomplishments. At 63, I have been a rifleman for a long time, so I suppose that I have just never had the skills to perform all of these wonders and more. Or.............perhaps some hunters/shooters need to stretch reality a tad?
    Using hunting rifles, I am happy to work up loads that will consistantly shoot inside 1" @ 100 yds. I like my varmint rifles to do just a little better then that. This, using Burris Signature scopes, which I believe are somewhere in the middle, in terms of quality and price.

    roysclockgun
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  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Stealth
    I don't know why I am wasting my time answering you but I will try.
    My $70.00 Tasco is mounted to my rifle with a 20moa sloped base and the scope has ( with the base) 43 moa elevation travel because it is a 1 inch tube , only about 39 moa is actually usable , My XOTIC 4-16X56 has over 100moa travel wita a 30mm tube , now a true moa is about 1.047"at 100 yards so when I say moa I am talking in inches at 100 yards for clarity.
    At 1000 yards I use 36.5moa elevation or 146 clicks up or (2 turns+6minutes and 2 clicks )on this scope.
    That is not to hard to see on a 1 inch tube is it? When I shoot out to 1500 yards I set it for the 1000 yard zero first then I hold over 5 mils using the Mil-Dots , this is ware the reticule gets thick after the dots. The second longest shot ever recorded in South Viet Nam was in 1967.The weapon was the Remington Model 700 w/Redfield 3x9 scope The distance was1900 meters, distance and KIA was confirmed by a Marine 1st Lieutenant 1/5 the Shooter L/Cpl. Martin E. Berry 5th Marine Scout Sniper Platoon.
    Shooting at long ranges is a good test for you and your rifle but you will never understand how it can be done if you don't try it.
    My best 5 shot 1000 yard group with this scope was 6-7/8" on a nice day temp was about 76.[:D]

    Raptor



    Do you use like every 3rd dot for each additional 100 yards...or maybe even more.?.? The bullet is dropping so fast out at 1000 yards, I don't understand how you could be using your mil dots????

    Eric
    allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
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  • StealthStealth Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    First I want to say that I am NOT trying to say this scope is any better than a good or a high end scope and I DON'T recommend wasting money trying to find out. GET a Leopold MK4 M1 or M3 and if that cost too much get a Super Sniper.
    Like I said before I tried the other model 6-24X42 and it FAILED after only 3 weeks on a 22.250. I am not an expert of any kind I just like long range shooting for fun.
    This scope can be had at Midway or SWFA for $63.99 to $67.99 , 2.5-10X42 Mil-Dot Target Varmint, It ahs ?" clicks that sound and feel bad, 15moa per turn of the knob and fair glass .
    My rifle has a 26" Bull barrel with a 1-12" twist. I reload with 168 gr Amax bullets at an AV of 2705 fps ( choreographed ).
    When I shoot over 1000 yds it is usually on a very calm day and the temp is between 30-70 degrees and almost all of my shooting is done from a bench . I use a 1600 yd Newcon rangefinder against a very reflective target for ranging.
    My target is 40"X40" cardboard with a Moa bright orange ,Red dot in the middle.
    Bullets that don't hit the dot are NOT counted as hits.
    I have much bigger guns for this type of shooting with a lot better scopes on them but I like to push it to its max.(.300 -.338rum-.50BMG.)
    ECC
    I actually use the power selector after the initial 1000 yd zero, this might sound strange but it works for me.
    My hit ratio on a moa reflective dot is only about 1 in 5 shots at 1500 yards.
    This is my actual settings on a 60 degree day after my initial 1000 yd Zero.
    At 1200 yds I leave it on 10X and hold over 5 mils about -575"DROP
    At 1300 yds I set it at 7X and hold over 5 mils - 725" est
    At 1400 yds I set it at 4.5X and hold over 5 mils -900" est At 1500 yds I set it at 3.5X and hold over 5 mils. - 1100" est
    Now some of you are thinking BS for 3.5X at 1500 yds but from a bench and a 40"X40" backing on the target ,yes I can see the orange dot if I hold just left or right of it on the crosshairs.
    For non believers all I can say is get out and try it.
    I know the Mil spacing gets bigger as the power is reduced on the scope unlike the XOTIC witch stays the same on all powers.
    If any of you want more info for the purpose of trying it I will be more than glad to tell you what works for me and the gear I use.[:)]



    Raptor
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  • ContacFrontContacFront Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Now I am really going to have to throw the BS FLAG.

    Your range finder is off or something because there is NO WAY IN HELL YOU PUSH A 168GN AMAX out to 1500yards.

    Ive seen 168s go subsonic at 1K. If not please do share your load data because I got some buds that would LOVE to shoot 168s at 1500yards.

    I was going to give you the benifit of a doubt saying you were pushing 175s at 2750 but even then they drop below 1000 FPS at 1500yards. With 175s you need 76 MOA to get out to 1500 yards, IF THE BULLET CAN MAKE THE TRIP.

    With the 168gn AMAX you will be dropping about 82MOA. And only traveling about 953FPS at 1500yards. Can we say KEYHOLE?

    Man I would love to see a range that has calm days out to 1500yards. Where is this place at?

    As for the great shots recorded by SS in Vietnam, you do realize most of those long shots were angle shots right? Meaning line of sight was probably 1900 meters but true ballistic range was far less.

    As for as some of us not shooting long range here, I'd watch out who you say that to on this board. I am sure there are some men here that could and would teach you a few things.

    As for me, I am lucky enough to live 30 minutes from a 1K range. I try to shoot on it once or sometimes twice a week. [:D]
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  • StealthStealth Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Our range is only 700 yards but their is about 2 miles of clear sage brush beond that.
    As for the rangefinder,A shooter that had a Leica 1200 /compared was right on with my newcon to 1190 yards we did not test beond that.

    Raptor
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  • ContacFrontContacFront Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So where did 1500yards come from?

    Still am pretty curious about the load you shoot to push a 168gn AMAX out to 1500yards.

    I ran a bunch of numbers and it looks impossible even on paper.
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  • StealthStealth Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well I take the target out in the sagebrush to what ever distance I want![:D]

    168gr Amax with a BC of .475
    Winchester case.
    44gr Varget powder.
    CCI BR2 Primer.
    AV of 2705 fps
    I like that!. I ran a bunch of numbers and it looks impossible even on paper

    Raptor
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  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Stealth
    Well I take the target out in the sagebrush to what ever distance I want![:D]

    168gr Amax with a BC of .475
    Winchester case.
    44gr Varget powder.
    CCI BR2 Primer.
    AV of 2705 fps
    I like that!. I ran a bunch of numbers and it looks impossible even on paper

    Raptor


    With that info, we can determine that with a 100 yard zero, your bullet drops 390.7" at 1000 and the velocity drops approx 1500'/per sec... At 1500 yards.?.?

    Eric
    allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
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