In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
Problem with primers backing out.
idahoducker
Member Posts: 740 ✭✭
.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
Comments
Not seating too far out. It's a Remington 722 so it won't let me if I want to put them in the magazine. Good thought though.
JustC,
I will try the sizing trick.
By the way, I measured them and they are backed out .008" on everyone I checked.
excess headspace or over-sizing the case. Back the die off and see if it goes away. Use a fired case, set it in the shellholder, and remove the decapping stem. Run the die down by hand until it makes contact with the shoulder. set the die there and re-install the decapping rod. Load and fire and see if the situation goes away.
JustC, I don't envision how this would be possible- to run the die down by hand??? It takes hundreds of pounds of compounded force to size the case- not something I could od by hand. And even if I could, it wouldn't come out of the die easily. Perhaps you could elaborate?
What I would do is soot a case that's been fired, lube it, screw the sizing die in to the shellholder then back of about 5 turns. Size the case. Observe the neck. Repeat, screwing the die in a half turn at a time until the neck is entirely sized. This should be about right and won't push your shoulder back.
Adjust your die to your chamber and the problem will disappear
jonk--Justin meant to screw the die down by hand after you loosen the darn set screw
in the ring that holds the die in place.....
ID-Your cases are to short to fit the chamber in the proper way..
Adjust your die to your chamber and the problem will disappear
jonk--Justin meant to screw the die down by hand after you loosen the darn set screw
in the ring that holds the die in place.....
Aaah. Gotcha.
.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
Hi idahoducker,
You have created a headspace problem without even knowing it. There is a very important relationship between the rifle's headspace and the die-to-shellholder distance. These two dimensions must relate to each other or there will be too much or too little headspace. To gain an understanding of this relationship, there is a simple gauge that is available from RCBS. It is called the Precision Mic and is available for every cartridge known to man. I will quote from Cabela's website......
The Precision Mic Gauge shows you your chamber headspace and bullet-seating depth to 0.001 of an inch with just a few twists. It measures from the datum point on the case's shoulder to the base, giving you spot-on SAAMI tolerance readings. It's indispensable for safe, accurate loads. Available for many popular calibers.
You will be able to properly set the die to attain the proper headspace for your rifle with this gauge. It is very important to understand the relationship between the rifle's headspace requirements and the die's position in relation to the shellholder. The amount of case head to bolt face pressure will be greatly reduced once you have attained proper headspace. Your brass will last for a very long time also because it will not be stretching excessively. And your primers will be flat in the pockets too! The old saying of 'screw the die down until it bottoms out on the shellholder and then back it off an 1/8 of a turn' will always get a reloader in trouble.
The other important attribute that the gauge has is solving the bullet seating depth. The gauge is capable of relating the chamber-to-land distance to the proper setting of the bullet seating die. You will be able to seat your bullets properly and record the relative value that the gauge will give you.
I would highly recommend that you at least read about the gauge and become familiar with its attributes. The gauge will resolve all of your press setup issues. I always purchased one prior to setting dies in my Dillon. They were always a must tool in my reloading room.
I trust that this information will be helpful to you.
Matt
Sorry for any confusion,..my fingers can't keep up with my thoughts and sometimes I don't fully explain before moving on to the next though[B)]
I use the stoney point "head and shoulders" guage. It is now owned and produced by Sinclair I beleive. They are cheap, come with inserts for every size case, and cost a lot less than buying one for each chambering. One set does them all[;)]
Larry[8D]
quote:Originally posted by idahoducker
.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
Hi idahoducker,
You have created a headspace problem without even knowing it. There is a very important relationship between the rifle's headspace and the die-to-shellholder distance. These two dimensions must relate to each other or there will be too much or too little headspace. To gain an understanding of this relationship, there is a simple gauge that is available from RCBS. It is called the Precision Mic and is available for every cartridge known to man. I will quote from Cabela's website......
The Precision Mic Gauge shows you your chamber headspace and bullet-seating depth to 0.001 of an inch with just a few twists. It measures from the datum point on the case's shoulder to the base, giving you spot-on SAAMI tolerance readings. It's indispensable for safe, accurate loads. Available for many popular calibers.
You will be able to properly set the die to attain the proper headspace for your rifle with this gauge. It is very important to understand the relationship between the rifle's headspace requirements and the die's position in relation to the shellholder. The amount of case head to bolt face pressure will be greatly reduced once you have attained proper headspace. Your brass will last for a very long time also because it will not be stretching excessively. And your primers will be flat in the pockets too! The old saying of 'screw the die down until it bottoms out on the shellholder and then back it off an 1/8 of a turn' will always get a reloader in trouble.
The other important attribute that the gauge has is solving the bullet seating depth. The gauge is capable of relating the chamber-to-land distance to the proper setting of the bullet seating die. You will be able to seat your bullets properly and record the relative value that the gauge will give you.
I would highly recommend that you at least read about the gauge and become familiar with its attributes. The gauge will resolve all of your press setup issues. I always purchased one prior to setting dies in my Dillon. They were always a must tool in my reloading room.
I trust that this information will be helpful to you.
Matt
Sounds good, but not the way to go. If you really are having a headspace problem, the best tool made is the Stoney Point. It works just like a bullet comparator, and measures to the datum line. You'll need to use at least a once fired case-neck sized only, twice fired is better as you will get spring back on a once fired round (some will go three or four times). Then set your shoulder bump or set back 0.001-0.002 from this figure for this gun.I am assuming you are firing from a bolt gun. Be sure you are not "jam" seating your sierra's. Speaking of Sierra's, your load is HOT. Sierra lists 38.0 gr IMR-4320 as a max load, start load is 32.0gr. Sierra lists accuracy load as 42.5 of H4350. The first thing should be to reduce this hot load, but you'll need to set your dies correctly for full potential. I must agree with Glen D. Zediker,author: HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION, when he stated on page 124, "In case anyone is wondering why I didn't mention the RCBS Case Micrometer,there, I just did." This was the nicest was he could say it. Get the right tool to start with, you'll be glad you did.
All of us have an opinion about which piece of gear works the best. If there were only the one that worked there wouldn't be any competition and a choice of products. Do some reading about the various methods of measuring cases and adjusting your dies then go back to shooting. Let us know how it all works out!
Best.
MEMPHISJOE,
"I am assuming you are firing from a bolt gun."
You have no idea what kind of firearm he is using. You have no idea what the condition is of his barrel or chamber. You don't know anything except the components of his load and then you don't know the exact seating dimension of the bullet in the case. And yet you contend that his load is `hot' based on your one reloading manual reference.
What you don't know is that individual rifles don't all operate at the same pressure level. Some don't handle all of the loads within the load range and show early signs of pressure. Others continue to operate at what we think is the high end of the pressure range without showing adverse signs of pressure. Sometimes a particular lot number of a specific powder doesn't perform at the burn rate that the manufacturer suggests and runs higher or lower on the pressure curve.
What you also don't seem to know is that the .257 Roberts has three ranges of pressure set up by SAAMI for various grades of firearms that can be achieved through basic reloading.
The load that is being discussed falls well within the lowest range of pressure so it can't really be called `hot'. It's simply at the top of the scale that Sierra is using currently for their load manuals without specifying that these are the lowest pressure loads. I have another Sierra manual that lists the range as being 34.5 gr. to 38.6 gr. and it still falls well within the lowest pressure range. One of my Hodgdon manuals has the range as being 36.0 gr. to 39.0 gr. for IMR-4320. On and on, it's like quoting statistics because it depends on who's doing the testing and measuring, which type of pressure gun they're using or if they're constructing a model with a computer program. There are lots of variables.
Reloading manual are great repositories of a massive amount of data constructed through testing and nowadays, computer modeling. But the ranges are used as guidelines not necessarily hard and fast absolutes. There are far too many variables that can be taken into account for each individual rifle. That's why we run all these tests on components and loads to see what each rifle likes for accuracy.
Best.
Idahoducker,
All of us have an opinion about which piece of gear works the best. If there were only the one that worked there wouldn't be any competition and a choice of products. Do some reading about the various methods of measuring cases and adjusting your dies then go back to shooting. Let us know how it all works out!
Best.
MEMPHISJOE,
"I am assuming you are firing from a bolt gun."
You have no idea what kind of firearm he is using. You have no idea what the condition is of his barrel or chamber. You don't know anything except the components of his load and then you don't know the exact seating dimension of the bullet in the case. And yet you contend that his load is `hot' based on your one reloading manual reference.
What you don't know is that individual rifles don't all operate at the same pressure level. Some don't handle all of the loads within the load range and show early signs of pressure. Others continue to operate at what we think is the high end of the pressure range without showing adverse signs of pressure. Sometimes a particular lot number of a specific powder doesn't perform at the burn rate that the manufacturer suggests and runs higher or lower on the pressure curve.
What you also don't seem to know is that the .257 Roberts has three ranges of pressure set up by SAAMI for various grades of firearms that can be achieved through basic reloading.
The load that is being discussed falls well within the lowest range of pressure so it can't really be called `hot'. It's simply at the top of the scale that Sierra is using currently for their load manuals without specifying that these are the lowest pressure loads. I have another Sierra manual that lists the range as being 34.5 gr. to 38.6 gr. and it still falls well within the lowest pressure range. One of my Hodgdon manuals has the range as being 36.0 gr. to 39.0 gr. for IMR-4320. On and on, it's like quoting statistics because it depends on who's doing the testing and measuring, which type of pressure gun they're using or if they're constructing a model with a computer program. There are lots of variables.
Reloading manual are great repositories of a massive amount of data constructed through testing and nowadays, computer modeling. But the ranges are used as guidelines not necessarily hard and fast absolutes. There are far too many variables that can be taken into account for each individual rifle. That's why we run all these tests on components and loads to see what each rifle likes for accuracy.
Best.
As there was no statement either way on what type of rifle, I had to make an assumption, what you don't know is what type of rifle he is using, what you did not do is make an educated guess.
What you do not seem to grasp is he has primers backing out, this is usually a sign of excess pressure, the safe thing to do is to reduce pressure, regardless, of the cause until the problem can be solved. What you do not know is that regardless of what pressure you believe his rifle should be operating at, it is backing out primers, should and is are two different things. Regarding you rant on SAAMI pressure standards, I would like you to post this special data you seem to have, the special data only SAAMI sends you! In my copy of the standards, there is indeed three different bullet weights listed, but lets be no nonsense here, there is only one set of pressure, the same set of pressure for all three weights, 87,100,117gr bullets. We are not talking about +p here, just the lising in the spec. Please post the page where this is listed, if you know. Safe and careful loading should always put the shooter first, lets cut the non sense here and say any time you are backing out primers, regardless of the cause, you have a pressure problem..reduce the load. What you don't know is most serious loaders use a stoney point, or like gauge to measure their cases head space. What you don't know is sometimes there is only one thing that works...correctly that is. The RCBS whiz is not the way to go. You need to do a little reading on the subject, you may wake up and say.."wow, what I did not know, I did not know I didn't know it".
idahoducker..do not let this crap get you to do something unsafe, reduce the load, and get a stoney point gauge, work the load back up, you may be able to go to a much high load than what is backing out your primers now, but be safe we do not need someone hurt, because someone thinks you should start hot based on an old manual. Sierra is often on the safe side, but that is where you want to start, safe sided. What nononsense does not understand is when you have primers coming out, you are on the hot side. Good shooting, also please post what type of rifle your shooting.
"What nononsense does not understand is when you have primers coming out, you are on the hot side."
From Sierra's Exterior Ballistics.com page:
Backed-Out Primer: A primer which, upon firing, has been pushed slightly out from the primer pocket. Primers backing out generally indicates an excessive headspace situation, usually in conjunction with a light load. Can be caused by light loads alone, in some circumstances. Also referred to as a popped or protruded primer.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/glossary.cfm
As a simple explanation:
This is a very normal occurrence when peak pressure is far below the normal, maximum amount. What happens is the case is pushed forward by the firing pin as the primer is struck. When the case expands to fill the chamber, the lower-than-normal pressure isn't enough to push the back of the case fully against the bolt face. But the primer isn't held in place with much tension, so it gets pushed back against the bolt face. In the opposite situation, maximum pressure in a cartridge pushes the case head hard against the bolt face leaving no place for the primer to stick out its pocket, resulting in very flattened primers. In extreme situations you might even see some cratering.
SAAMI Specifications for the .257 Roberts:
Piezo
SAAMI = 54,000 PSI
CIP = 51,000 PSI
Copper Crusher
SAAMI = 45,000 CUP
CIP = 45,000 CUP
The load specified above is less than the 45,000 CUP specified by SAAMI and CIP.
None of the members here at GB advocate unsafe practices or loads. We do advocate accurate information.
You can slander me if you want but all of the experts, even Sierra, agree with the position that I've stated.
There is no more to be written, we're finished here.
Best.
MEMPHISJOE,
"What nononsense does not understand is when you have primers coming out, you are on the hot side."
From Sierra's Exterior Ballistics.com page:
Backed-Out Primer: A primer which, upon firing, has been pushed slightly out from the primer pocket. Primers backing out generally indicates an excessive headspace situation, usually in conjunction with a light load. Can be caused by light loads alone, in some circumstances. Also referred to as a popped or protruded primer.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reference/glossary.cfm
As a simple explanation:
This is a very normal occurrence when peak pressure is far below the normal, maximum amount. What happens is the case is pushed forward by the firing pin as the primer is struck. When the case expands to fill the chamber, the lower-than-normal pressure isn't enough to push the back of the case fully against the bolt face. But the primer isn't held in place with much tension, so it gets pushed back against the bolt face. In the opposite situation, maximum pressure in a cartridge pushes the case head hard against the bolt face leaving no place for the primer to stick out its pocket, resulting in very flattened primers. In extreme situations you might even see some cratering.
SAAMI Specifications for the .257 Roberts:
Piezo
SAAMI = 54,000 PSI
CIP = 51,000 PSI
Copper Crusher
SAAMI = 45,000 CUP
CIP = 45,000 CUP
The load specified above is less than the 45,000 CUP specified by SAAMI and CIP.
None of the members here at GB advocate unsafe practices or loads. We do advocate accurate information.
You can slander me if you want but all of the experts, even Sierra, agree with the position that I've stated.
There is no more to be written, we're finished here.
Best.
WHERE ARE YOUR POSTS FOR THE THREE DIFFERENT SETS OF PRESSURE DATA YOU HAVE FROM SAAMI? They do Not exist,except in you mind. I believe you are confused, there is not three different sets of pressure data for this one round. It just sounded good, so you posted it. You keep on advocating the RCBS whiz tool, as the way to go. Others may not call your hand, but will know this is a poor choice, very poor choice. Why would you quote Sierra, when you think their data is too safe? You posted that you had some old data, and thought it would be just as good as the newest data. Because if it as ever published, it must be great, do not go the the lastest data, stick with the oldest stuff you can find, if you like..this is crazy. I guess you are now aware that he is loading a gun with a bolt anyway, and have discounted the one off recoilless rifle. How did you figure that out? I made a an assumption, and stated that I assumed, he was shooting a bolt gun. You are assuming a gun with a bolt! Keep on advocating the RCBS whiz tool, old data that is hotter than that published today for some one having trouble. I too agreed the man was having a head space problem, but instead of going with the whiz tool, gave him advice to use a tool that would actually help, very accurate and easy to use. You support of the whiz tool is what I'd expect from a pompus fool. I'm still waiting for the three different sets of pressure data for the 257Rob, not +P, not Ack Imp, but the 257Rob. As you have special inside info that SAAMI only shares with you, maybe it is to special to share. Or maybe you just pulled that crap out of your....
Pressure makes the case expand to fit the chamber. If pressure were higher than standard, logic dictates it fills the chamber more completely, and with more force. That force is 360* around. Therefore, the casehead would be pushed against the boltface with even greater force. This makes it far from normal to see a backed out primer in a hot load, since the bolt-thrust would be even greater than normal. This would seat the primer harder and possibly even flatten it (high pressure sign). A small case and a large chamber is what makes a primer back out. And, if the load is HOT in an oversized chamber, you will see primer flattening where the primer starts to back out, but the thrust slamms the casehead against the boltface and not only re-seats the primer, but flattens it as well. In this case, you may also see the case=head seperation line after only 1-2 firings. A backed out primer is a normal or lower pressure load in a larger chamber than the case.
I have run loads into the 80K psi range without knowing it ahead of time, and have never seen a backed out primer. Backed out primers are headspace issues.
You to? I've seen primers come out visably shorter than they went in, due to high pressure (sooted up the case head too [:0] ), but never backed out due to HIGH pressure.
Now on a LOW pressure load, you'll see them backed out quite often.
The pressures have to get above IIRC 40,000psi before the case will stretch back aganst the bolt face.
Now, referance test chambers and "production" chambers: real pressure guns use barrels that are on the "tighter than normal" end of spec, with minimum "minus" chambers and short throats, all of which tend to increase the pressure results. Factory chambers, on the other hand, tend to run closer to max in all dimentions, esp the throats, which brings the pressures down (sometimes WAY down).
That said, I still don't recogmend exceeding "bullet makers spec" on the powder charge, as you don't have any real way of knowing where your at on the pressure curve (if it's that bad, have the barrel pulled, set back, and re-chambered with a min spec reamer).
Max load from the data I'm using is 39 gr. IMR 4320. I'll have to get back to you on just what source that was but I'm pretty sure it was for +P and I've been told by several people including my gunsmith that +P is fine in the 722.
The primers are backing out the same distance (.008) with any amount of IMR 4320. Within the range specified in my data of course.
So far since I started this thread I've backed the die up in increments to a half turn. One round at each point. At 20/1000 the primer looked normal and you could see that it had made contact with the bolt face. I jumped to a half turn at that point and the primer backed out again. I haven't had a chance to try more yet but will this week.
Debates are great learning tools for those who are listening so please keep it up. Just be nice. [:)]
Another thing. I'm getting sub MOA 5 shot groups with this thing as it is. Primers backing out and all. Is there anything really bad about having them back out just .008?
I would suggest you get a headspace tool like the stoney point (they are cheap) This way, you can set the dies to only bump the shoulder back by say .001" or you could buy a redding "body die" that sizes the body but leaves the shoulder alone. Either way, once fired, your cases when sized, will still have the same headspace dimensions. Oversizing after the first firing is what will cause that primer to back out since the shoulder is shy of the chamber shoulder by a fair amount.
Inquire as to whether he used a reamer or polish. if he used a reamer to clean up the chamber, THERE is your answer.
There is only one set of pressure data (SAAMI) for the 257Rob, it is reported in PSI, and CUP, this does not make two, but just two ways of measuring and reporting, as in most rounds. There is only one set of pressure data (SAAMI) for the 257Rob+P. Both have several bullet weights, but the data does not change. Anyone telling you otherwise is drinking again. The 257+p round is different (stronger) than the 257Rob round, when rounds are different they are different, meaning not the same. Men and women are both humans, but they are different, some of the old guys, have forgot about this... I stand by my original post regarding over loading for the 257Rob, but you are O-TAY with 257+P data (hope you are using +P brass). You are not having a problem with the factory loads are they +P, and your Rem brass not? I agree that you most likely have a headspace problem. And I like to be clear on this, those posters that are telling you to, (defending the use of), a RCBS whiz tool, either don't know, or do know and are for some weird reason giving you bad info!!! Get a Stoney Point Head Space Gauge, or like tool, and a good case gauge. You will be happier, your chance of making an error is much smaller.
If your "gunsmith" opened up your chamber-by whatever means, your chamber may be out of spec, causing the brass to shorten, as it swells to the chamber walls (the brass has to come from somewhere). If this is the case you need a new "gunsmith". Mic some of your fired cases even with spring back you may be able to find out if your chamber is too chubby. A chamber cast removes all doubt. The funny thing about this is you are having no problem with the Factory loads, My guess, and only a guess, would be if the chamber is to large, you would have the same problem with any full load. But then again if the factory brass is +P and your Rem brass is not, the strength difference may be just enough to fool you. I am glad you posted you are loading a bolt gun, some times you make assumptions I made the correct one, I even stated I was assuming you were loading for a bolt gun.
I have one, and it does have a learning curve (just like anything else), but once you get the feel for it it works.
That said, I'm old school, and we always got the answers we needed WITHOUT resorting to "special tools" (we also learned how to change channels/adjust the volume without a remote, and were happy listening to the radio instead of a I-Pod). It might take a little longer, but you can get there without them.
Now MJ may blow a gasket at this, but their is a larger variance between BRANDS of brass, than their is between "regular" and "plus-P" brass. As far as strength goes (for either), dispite his rantings, you won't start lossening primer pockets until your in the 75-80,000 PSI range IOW well above what ANY cartridge is spec'ed at for max pressure.
Buddy of mine has pushed his 257AI to 25-06 velocities, and the "regular" brass has no problems handling it (note: this is not something you should try at home).
Primers fall out because someone was too frugal to replace the cases when needed. Once my primers even begin to feel the least bit easy to seat, the cases are tossed. A pierced primer was someone hotrodding with a fast powder or a full boat load trying for every little last FPS they could get. Some chamberings actually shoot better at top loadings (PPC and BR to list a few) but their relatively small powder charges allow long case life.
Besides some guy having nothing to say about it in his book, what exactly is wrong with the RCBS mic? I did some research and found a lot of good user reviews.
I guess you could call Zediker "some guy", as you could David Tubb, they have done a book or two togeather. But yea if you haven't heard of them, they don't really count. But you are not alone, many on the thread have never heard of P.O.Ackley, and if they have, don't think much of his work, he just does not come up to their standards.
Just because you read in the "Weekly World News" that the earth is flat, Elvis lives, Bat Boy is advising G.W.B. on Iraq and the US never landed a man on the moon, dosn't mean it's true.
Work out the metalurgy for yourself.
BTW, your hero, Parker O. Ackley, often loaded into the 70-75,000 psi range also.
Joe
Just because you read in the "Weekly World News" that the earth is flat, Elvis lives, Bat Boy is advising G.W.B. on Iraq and the US never landed a man on the moon, dosn't mean it's true.
Work out the metalurgy for yourself.
BTW, your hero, Parker O. Ackley, often loaded into the 70-75,000 psi range also.
Speer has done similar testing with similar results. Why do you think SAAMI, allows for primer leakage on proof rounds? I don't do metalurgy, and you do not either. I trust well equipped labs to do it for me. The 45 acp+P proof round-33,000psi average. 38spl +P 27,500psi proof round (again maximum average) we are talking MORE than 250% higher, this is crazy. I would rather have you work out the metalurgy, and expalin why ANSI/SAAMI has not idea what they are doing, and should raise all cartridge operating pressures to at or near 80,000psi. I am sure they would love to hear from a true expert. I have posted facts from reconized experts, you are a self appointed expert with no facts other than- I know a guy....
regarding P.O Ackley, he loaded a hell of a lot hotter than that, read a little it won't hurt you. He loaded until he destroyed guns to find out when thing happen, how strong actions are etc., not because he advocated loading to destruction, but rather to deliver real data not "I know a guy.." type bull.
Cool hand luke
quote:Originally posted by idahoducker
Besides some guy having nothing to say about it in his book, what exactly is wrong with the RCBS mic? I did some research and found a lot of good user reviews.
I guess you could call Zediker "some guy", as you could David Tubb, they have done a book or two togeather. But yea if you haven't heard of them, they don't really count. But you are not alone, many on the thread have never heard of P.O.Ackley, and if they have, don't think much of his work, he just does not come up to their standards.
12 out of 15 customer reviews at Cabelas.com give good or excellent results with the RCBS tool and include why they do or don't like it.
51 out of 60 at midwayusa.com gave good or excellent with explanations.
Two negatives here (one just a quote) with no explanation even when specifically asked for one.
Are you here to help or just bother people?
1. Is it a problem to have primers back out .008 with every load I've tried? That's 35 - 38.5 grains of IMR 4320. They all do it. And while I'm not an expert I can't see any signs of anything else wrong. Whatever the answer I will find out what's causing it, I'd just like to know if it's an inherently bad thing to have happen. When this rifle puts 5 shots inside an inch, even with the primer issue, I'm tempted not to change anything.
2. Can anybody say what's wrong with the RCBS tool in question? Personal experiences would be the most helpful please.
First of all let me apologize for the direction that your thread has taken. Here is a wrap up of the information that you need:
"1. Is it a problem to have primers back out .008 with every load I've tried? That's 35 - 38.5 grains of IMR 4320. They all do it. And while I'm not an expert I can't see any signs of anything else wrong. Whatever the answer I will find out what's causing it, I'd just like to know if it's an inherently bad thing to have happen. When this rifle puts 5 shots inside an inch, even with the primer issue, I'm tempted not to change anything."
Your problem is one of headspace and light loads. It is NOT a condition that should be allowed since it can lead to problems with your brass and failure of that brass at some point. The problem can be addressed and fixed as JustC and others have pointed out by adjusting your resizing. Then everything will be back to normal and your accuracy should not suffer.
"2. Can anybody say what's wrong with the RCBS tool in question? Personal experiences would be the most helpful please."
No one needs to tell you that there is anything wrong with the Precision Mic. As I stated earlier, we all have varying opinions about gear and we don't always agree with each other. I have used both and the Precision Mic works. But most of us here, including me, use the Stoney Point tool and it works for us. Others I know use the Precision Mic and they do just fine. It's like anything else, use what you're comfortable with and what works for you and your procedures.
Now adjust your dies and go enjoy some shooting! Let us know how it works out.
Best.
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
MEMPHISJOE,
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
Heheeh, non, I love that picture![;)]
It's appropriate to the concept. [:D]
There was another line of type under 'Trolls' defining the term but it wouldn't have made it past the auto-censor at all.
Best.
do not use stoney point gauges or case gauges: get a RCBS they are great, a good way to buy loading equipment is to read what Cabelas says! ( need to think about that one, because that would be quoting a source)
do not worry about pressure or SAAMI or any other pressure data, you can go to 80,000psi on any cartridge any time.
there are 3 sets of pressure limits established by SAAMI for the 257 Roberts, for old guns, middleaged guns, and new guns I guess?
High pressure will not cause primer pockets to expand, or loose primers etc unless you are well above 80,000 psi on any cartridge.
If you know a guy that tells you something, it is always better than reading it from a noted expert, and quoting their work..far better.
Don't worry about specs, if the round fits fire it.
If you post something technical, and you are asked for your reference,ignore it- someone might catch on that what you posted was crap, if you posted something like well I can't find it, just ignore it!
Make sweeping statements like 80,000psi on any cartridge! You don't need to back it up, it is more fun that way!
again thanks for setting me straight on these things!!