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Still waiting for the 3 sets of 257Roberts data (SAAMI) YOU QUOTED, MADE UP, BETWEEN DRINKS, WHATEVER, BUT JUST POST THEM, YOU ARE THE ONLY GUY THAT HAS THE SPECIAL "BAT" LINE TO SAAMI, HOW HARD WOULD THIS BE, IF THEY EXIST, IF YOU DID NOT JUST PULL THEM OUT OF YOU &*^% wHAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Funny how on other boards, no one seems to think you can load to 80,000psi any cartridge without primer promblems, just you and your no reading friends, I really liked the one about trying it in an on Trapdoor! Good sense of humor those guys have.
7/30 8:59 you posted some rant regarding what I don't know is that SAAMI has set up three different pressures for loading 257 roberts, anyone can read the thread and find out who is a liar, and who is not. They may feel sorry for an old guy who can't remember where is drink is,but non the less, you are the liar in black and white. They do not exist, you just made them up.LIAR LIAR. oF COURSE YOU WOULD WANT ME TO LEAVE, AS HAVING ME POINT OUT YOUR BLACK AND WHITE LIES, ON THE EXACT POST ON THIS THREAD, MAY BE A LITTLE MORE THAN YOU CAN TAKE, HAVING TO ADMIT YOU ARE A LIAR, THAT KNOW HOW TO POST WITH BIG RED LETTERS, MAYBE YOU CAN GO DOWN TO THE FIREHOUSE AND THEY'D LET AN OLD FART WEAR A BIG RED HAT FOR A FEW MINUTES...OUTTINGS FOR SENIORS IS HARD TO PLAN.
Ran in to this type situation once where the chamber on an older rifle developed an eroded ring in that area between where the mouth of the case ends and the rifling leade begins. The mouth of any case that was slightly over length expanded into this ring and prevented the case from initially setting back but the spent primer did. This might explain why your factory loads didn't do this and your handloads did. Keep your cases trimmed and don't set the shoulder back in the sizing operation keep it tight against the chamber wall. Could also be any other lateral imperfection in the chamber doing this that your polishing didn't get. Try "scoping" it out. Hang in there Joe, I think there's a Bernard Montgomery Reincarnation about.
actually, I posted the 80K psi range evidence, which was my experience, not that of nononsense. You can post your experiences, and you can DEBATE information presented. If it happens to be accompanied by computer proof, or even scanned in print outs from the chrono printer, then that is accpeatble. HOWEVER, if you decide to confront another member or accuse them of lying,..your time is limited here. Present scientific evidence, or be happy to simply disagree.
We should all be so lucky as to have the resources that nononsense has at his disposal. The man can make his own cut rifled barrels if he wants to run an experiment.[:0] He WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY,...he is not a keyboard cowboy (something I find prevalent on the internet).
take a scientific approach, and present information in a non-biased manner. THAT is the purpose of this forum.
And get off the RCBS tool already,..it's boring now.
JustC (you little whipper snapper you [:D]), come on down to the old fogies home, we're having a prune juce party (and I think I can sneek you in). Gertrude is reviving her tassel dance whoo hoo [:D] NoNon is invited too, and we can all swap our hero stories. [:D]
Were would you guess I was at with Tommy, when he smoked a primer [B)] ? First firing of a COW formed case. Hints, 12.5gr over Sierra max for the RUM case (was at 96.0gr), Tommy holds 4gr more water than the RUM does, 200gr SMK set .035 off the lands. NO measurable CHE or PRE and the pocket is only slightly looser than a new case (about what you'd normaly expect after 10 book mas loads). Up to that point the primers had all looked the same, IE slightly flattened.
quote:Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
JustC (you little whipper snapper you [:D]), come on down to the old fogies home, we're having a prune juce party (and I think I can sneek you in). Gertrude is reviving her tassel dance whoo hoo [:D] NoNon is invited too, and we can all swap our hero stories. [:D]
Were would you guess I was at with Tommy, when he smoked a primer [B)] ? First firing of a COW formed case. Hints, 12.5gr over Sierra max for the RUM case (was at 96.0gr), Tommy holds 4gr more water than the RUM does, 200gr SMK set .035 off the lands. NO measurable CHE or PRE and the pocket is only slightly looser than a new case (about what you'd normaly expect after 10 book mas loads). Up to that point the primers had all looked the same, IE slightly flattened.
I am sure you are tell it like it was, but I doubt, really doubt if you could pull that off with a 7x57, brass just aint that strong.
quote:Originally posted by JustC
actually, I posted the 80K psi range evidence, which was my experience, not that of nononsense. You can post your experiences, and you can DEBATE information presented. If it happens to be accompanied by computer proof, or even scanned in print outs from the chrono printer, then that is accpeatble. HOWEVER, if you decide to confront another member or accuse them of lying,..your time is limited here. Present scientific evidence, or be happy to simply disagree.
We should all be so lucky as to have the resources that nononsense has at his disposal. The man can make his own cut rifled barrels if he wants to run an experiment.[:0] He WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY,...he is not a keyboard cowboy (something I find prevalent on the internet).
take a scientific approach, and present information in a non-biased manner. THAT is the purpose of this forum.
And get off the RCBS tool already,..it's boring now.
I agree with you regarding calling people liars, if you read the thread I believe you will see who started calling liar. I posted what I believe is the lie, there is not three different pressure levels from SAAMI, I am looking at a copy as I write. But you are correct, maybe nonsense, has a new special copy with three in it, if so, as you say post it. Regarding a debate, if I make a statement, iF I or anyone else quotes a technical spec, I believe it is well within normal practice to ask where, one got that info. If I were to state, "remington once made a model 7854 chambered in three special calibers", one might ask, "where are you getting that" what catalog, what year, what calibers etc. If I was then unable or unwilling to back up the wild claim, you may think I was a cowboy, or a drunk, or whatever. Why, because if I actually had a Rem cat with that info, I would post it.
But thanks for pointing out we should not START calling liar,regardless of who we are or what we can do.
Earl Naramore, LTC. USA, FORMERLY Manager, small arms ammunition section, bridgeport ordnance district: chief, small arms division,Hartford ordance district: chief Proof officer, chief inspection division operations officer, and executive officer, Erie Proving Ground, wrote in his super book,PRINCIPLES AND PRACICE OF LODING AMMUNITON. (I will not take out of context, but rather post the entire Paragraph.) " Expanded Primer Pockets. If it is found that fired primers can be pushed out of cses that have been reloaded several times, with very little pressure or that new primers can be seated with only slight pressure, it is a good sign of that the loads used in the cases have been too high. One reloading can cause primer pockets to expand enough to make primers too easy in their seating, or repeated firing at too high pressures can cause a more gradual increase in primer pocket size. Cases so soft that the primer pockets expand or that have primer pockets in which primers do not fit tightly are a very rare occurence in factory loaded ammunition. Try a different lot of primers and if they are still to easy a fit, discard the cases and cut the powder charge a little. Remember that cases are made to stand normal primer pressures and they will do this even with repeated firings, if their maximum premissible pressures are not exceeded. Slight enlargement of primer pockets may or may not be accompanied by primer leaks.
Blown Primers. This condition indicates that pressures are getting up toward a destructive force. The primer pressure becomes so great that it is beyond the strength of the brass in the head of the case and the primer pocket is expanded so much that a fired primer will drop out by itself. This conditon is always accompanied by gas leakage arund the primer and is indicative that the powder charge is much too heavy. This is a dangerous conditon and an indication that
something is radicaly wrong!"
I believe that if you are have a promble with any load-reduce that load, and stay away from anything close to maximum, until such time you ID the problem and get it fixed. Then and only then work back up to a high end load. This is just common sense. No loaded round you are making on your bench is worth getting hurt over, or damaging you weapon.
Earl Naramore's book is quite old, but a very informative piece you'll really enjoy reading, and reading again. I got mine many years ago, and it was a reprint then, but it was published by stackpole books, if anyone is interested. I doubt if anyone would argue that he does not have the background to make the statements that he makes in work.
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
" Read not to contradict and confute: nor to believe and take for granted: not to find talk and discourse: but to weight and consider." FRANCIS BACON
I felt a quote from one of the greats, a man who was in charge of 10,000,000's of rounds, and best ballistic labs in the world, may be of some interest. Usually published works are cited, if they have stood peer review, and the test of time, this is the standard for all scientific publication(s). Earl Naramore's,albeit, somewhat outdated, book, has stood the test of time, I really believe those interested in such things would really enjoy a copy. I am sorry you don't find him credible, but if you get a chance pick up a copy, after you've had a chance to give it a going over, I think you may change your mind regarding the quality of his work.
quote:Originally posted by cotton2
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
" Read not to contradict and confute: nor to believe and take for granted: not to find talk and discourse: but to weight and consider." FRANCIS BACON
I felt a quote from one of the greats, a man who was in charge of 10,000,000's of rounds, and best ballistic labs in the world, may be of some interest. Usually published works are cited, if they have stood peer review, and the test of time, this is the standard for all scientific publication(s). Earl Naramore's,albeit, somewhat outdated, book, has stood the test of time, I really believe those interested in such things would really enjoy a copy. I am sorry you don't find him credible, but if you get a chance pick up a copy, after you've had a chance to give it a going over, I think you may change your mind regarding the quality of his work.
I never said he was not interesting. Julian S. Hatcher (Maj. Gen. Ret.) wrote a lot of greatly informative books and papers too. But; even the most exalted experts in a field are on occasion wrong, time has shown errors in their works. Most of the errors are because we can monitor things better in the age of electronics.
If your assertion is that only HIGH pressures will cause a primer to back out; then you too are as wrong as they were.
It is also noted your lack of response to the last question in my post; a man can change his name but not his feathers.
My assertion is not that only high pressure can cause a primer to backout, by no means. In fact I am in agreement with you regarding low pressure can cause the same thing, and in fact if most likely the reason backing out occures most of the time. I have no problem with that at all. But to limit oneself to only one possible cause of a problem, when others of some repute have seen more than one cause for the same problem, is very limiting indeed. Dismissing out of hand the "fathers" of loading/reloading speaks for itself. No where did I say anything about the only possible cause, nor would I. A chamber that has had, scratch marks removed, most likely would no longer have minimum specs (match chamber), if it had been so cut to start with. As it is an older action, it is quite possible that it is not a new barrel, it may have other problems. Most new barrels freshly chambered and installed by a professional gunsmith, would not be delivered with scratches in the chamber, ones that needed to be "polished" out. And if new, the scratches indicate a poor job by the "smith". I do not know what is causing this mans problems, as you or anyone else that has not had a chance to actually look at the weapons does, we are just speculating on the possible cause(s). Your attack upon me is weird, an unfitting a technical discussion of possible causes. But considering the others you have attacked I am in good company. The two greats of loading and Ammo, will stay great long after you and I are gone.
mrbruce. Everyone should be allowed to "speak his mind". I was trying to set the record straigt, I never said, high pressure and high pressure alone, could cause primer back out, enlarged primer pockets, but rather, it was a possible cause. The "giants" of this science, Gen Whelen, LTC Naramore and others do not need to be slighted, we owe alot to these guys, it would take a lot more than they "made a few mistakes", for me to discount their work or their great contibutions.
quote:Originally posted by cotton2
mrbruce. Everyone should be allowed to "speak his mind". I was trying to set the record straigt, I never said, high pressure and high pressure alone, could cause primer back out, enlarged primer pockets, but rather, it was a possible cause. The "giants" of this science, Gen Whelen, LTC Naramore and others do not need to be slighted, we owe alot to these guys, it would take a lot more than they "made a few mistakes", for me to discount their work or their great contibutions.
If we go back to the original post we can see what the question was;
quote:.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
We learn the issue is primers backing out on his handloads. There is no mention of expanded primer pockets, loose primer fit or blown primers. Also note that factory ammo worked "normally". I would think it has been explained Ad infinitum that the most likely cause of a protruding primer from a fired case is low pressure followed by and possibly equally as important; over sizing the cases making them too short for the chamber.
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
Nice use of "pseudo" there nononsense, and picture! You don't see that prefix to often. I hadn't looked at this thread for a while and couldn't figure ot out it got to be so long. It didn't take long to see why, and I didn't even read all of the replies either.
Comments
You are a TROLL, LEAVE!
Still waiting for the 3 sets of 257Roberts data (SAAMI) YOU QUOTED, MADE UP, BETWEEN DRINKS, WHATEVER, BUT JUST POST THEM, YOU ARE THE ONLY GUY THAT HAS THE SPECIAL "BAT" LINE TO SAAMI, HOW HARD WOULD THIS BE, IF THEY EXIST, IF YOU DID NOT JUST PULL THEM OUT OF YOU &*^% wHAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Funny how on other boards, no one seems to think you can load to 80,000psi any cartridge without primer promblems, just you and your no reading friends, I really liked the one about trying it in an on Trapdoor! Good sense of humor those guys have.
You are a TROLL and a LIAR, LEAVE.
7/30 8:59 you posted some rant regarding what I don't know is that SAAMI has set up three different pressures for loading 257 roberts, anyone can read the thread and find out who is a liar, and who is not. They may feel sorry for an old guy who can't remember where is drink is,but non the less, you are the liar in black and white. They do not exist, you just made them up.LIAR LIAR. oF COURSE YOU WOULD WANT ME TO LEAVE, AS HAVING ME POINT OUT YOUR BLACK AND WHITE LIES, ON THE EXACT POST ON THIS THREAD, MAY BE A LITTLE MORE THAN YOU CAN TAKE, HAVING TO ADMIT YOU ARE A LIAR, THAT KNOW HOW TO POST WITH BIG RED LETTERS, MAYBE YOU CAN GO DOWN TO THE FIREHOUSE AND THEY'D LET AN OLD FART WEAR A BIG RED HAT FOR A FEW MINUTES...OUTTINGS FOR SENIORS IS HARD TO PLAN.
We should all be so lucky as to have the resources that nononsense has at his disposal. The man can make his own cut rifled barrels if he wants to run an experiment.[:0] He WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY,...he is not a keyboard cowboy (something I find prevalent on the internet).
take a scientific approach, and present information in a non-biased manner. THAT is the purpose of this forum.
And get off the RCBS tool already,..it's boring now.
Were would you guess I was at with Tommy, when he smoked a primer [B)] ? First firing of a COW formed case. Hints, 12.5gr over Sierra max for the RUM case (was at 96.0gr), Tommy holds 4gr more water than the RUM does, 200gr SMK set .035 off the lands. NO measurable CHE or PRE and the pocket is only slightly looser than a new case (about what you'd normaly expect after 10 book mas loads). Up to that point the primers had all looked the same, IE slightly flattened.
JustC (you little whipper snapper you [:D]), come on down to the old fogies home, we're having a prune juce party (and I think I can sneek you in). Gertrude is reviving her tassel dance whoo hoo [:D] NoNon is invited too, and we can all swap our hero stories. [:D]
Were would you guess I was at with Tommy, when he smoked a primer [B)] ? First firing of a COW formed case. Hints, 12.5gr over Sierra max for the RUM case (was at 96.0gr), Tommy holds 4gr more water than the RUM does, 200gr SMK set .035 off the lands. NO measurable CHE or PRE and the pocket is only slightly looser than a new case (about what you'd normaly expect after 10 book mas loads). Up to that point the primers had all looked the same, IE slightly flattened.
I am sure you are tell it like it was, but I doubt, really doubt if you could pull that off with a 7x57, brass just aint that strong.
actually, I posted the 80K psi range evidence, which was my experience, not that of nononsense. You can post your experiences, and you can DEBATE information presented. If it happens to be accompanied by computer proof, or even scanned in print outs from the chrono printer, then that is accpeatble. HOWEVER, if you decide to confront another member or accuse them of lying,..your time is limited here. Present scientific evidence, or be happy to simply disagree.
We should all be so lucky as to have the resources that nononsense has at his disposal. The man can make his own cut rifled barrels if he wants to run an experiment.[:0] He WORKS IN THE INDUSTRY,...he is not a keyboard cowboy (something I find prevalent on the internet).
take a scientific approach, and present information in a non-biased manner. THAT is the purpose of this forum.
And get off the RCBS tool already,..it's boring now.
I agree with you regarding calling people liars, if you read the thread I believe you will see who started calling liar. I posted what I believe is the lie, there is not three different pressure levels from SAAMI, I am looking at a copy as I write. But you are correct, maybe nonsense, has a new special copy with three in it, if so, as you say post it. Regarding a debate, if I make a statement, iF I or anyone else quotes a technical spec, I believe it is well within normal practice to ask where, one got that info. If I were to state, "remington once made a model 7854 chambered in three special calibers", one might ask, "where are you getting that" what catalog, what year, what calibers etc. If I was then unable or unwilling to back up the wild claim, you may think I was a cowboy, or a drunk, or whatever. Why, because if I actually had a Rem cat with that info, I would post it.
But thanks for pointing out we should not START calling liar,regardless of who we are or what we can do.
Blown Primers. This condition indicates that pressures are getting up toward a destructive force. The primer pressure becomes so great that it is beyond the strength of the brass in the head of the case and the primer pocket is expanded so much that a fired primer will drop out by itself. This conditon is always accompanied by gas leakage arund the primer and is indicative that the powder charge is much too heavy. This is a dangerous conditon and an indication that
something is radicaly wrong!"
I believe that if you are have a promble with any load-reduce that load, and stay away from anything close to maximum, until such time you ID the problem and get it fixed. Then and only then work back up to a high end load. This is just common sense. No loaded round you are making on your bench is worth getting hurt over, or damaging you weapon.
Earl Naramore's book is quite old, but a very informative piece you'll really enjoy reading, and reading again. I got mine many years ago, and it was a reprint then, but it was published by stackpole books, if anyone is interested. I doubt if anyone would argue that he does not have the background to make the statements that he makes in work.
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
" Read not to contradict and confute: nor to believe and take for granted: not to find talk and discourse: but to weight and consider." FRANCIS BACON
I felt a quote from one of the greats, a man who was in charge of 10,000,000's of rounds, and best ballistic labs in the world, may be of some interest. Usually published works are cited, if they have stood peer review, and the test of time, this is the standard for all scientific publication(s). Earl Naramore's,albeit, somewhat outdated, book, has stood the test of time, I really believe those interested in such things would really enjoy a copy. I am sorry you don't find him credible, but if you get a chance pick up a copy, after you've had a chance to give it a going over, I think you may change your mind regarding the quality of his work.
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
Hi Cotton 2
I have shot many thousands of rifle rounds loaded by hand. The only time I have seen primers backed out of a fired case is with very mild, low pressure loads. As a matter of fact it is quite common for lead bullet loads in a rifle to have primers backed out during firing. The MV is necessarily low to avoid leading, therefore pressures are kept low.
The other contributing factor is head space. With head space a bit on the long side the force of the firing pin drives the case forward before pressure builds enough to seat the case in the chamber. Since the loads are mild case stretch is very minimal. The easy part to move is the primer, the case is stationary in the chamber. The primer backs out a bit and stays there. When pressures are higher, (more normal?) the case stretches reward, re-seating the primer, the shooter never sees evidence of the primer movement. I have never seen primers back out of a tight match chamber when the case is sized to the chamber. I have only seen it on factory or military rifles with handloads and low pressure loads.
I have experienced loose primer pockets on brass that has never seen excessive pressure. I have some 45 brass and 30-06 brass that have been fired more than 20 times each. The repeated firings will eventually get a primer pocket a bit on the loose side. I have retired some brass for this very reason.
Just out of curiosity; are you related to MEMPHISJOE?
" Read not to contradict and confute: nor to believe and take for granted: not to find talk and discourse: but to weight and consider." FRANCIS BACON
I felt a quote from one of the greats, a man who was in charge of 10,000,000's of rounds, and best ballistic labs in the world, may be of some interest. Usually published works are cited, if they have stood peer review, and the test of time, this is the standard for all scientific publication(s). Earl Naramore's,albeit, somewhat outdated, book, has stood the test of time, I really believe those interested in such things would really enjoy a copy. I am sorry you don't find him credible, but if you get a chance pick up a copy, after you've had a chance to give it a going over, I think you may change your mind regarding the quality of his work.
I never said he was not interesting. Julian S. Hatcher (Maj. Gen. Ret.) wrote a lot of greatly informative books and papers too. But; even the most exalted experts in a field are on occasion wrong, time has shown errors in their works. Most of the errors are because we can monitor things better in the age of electronics.
If your assertion is that only HIGH pressures will cause a primer to back out; then you too are as wrong as they were.
It is also noted your lack of response to the last question in my post; a man can change his name but not his feathers.
Is he not allowed to speak his mind the same as you are ?
mrbruce. Everyone should be allowed to "speak his mind". I was trying to set the record straigt, I never said, high pressure and high pressure alone, could cause primer back out, enlarged primer pockets, but rather, it was a possible cause. The "giants" of this science, Gen Whelen, LTC Naramore and others do not need to be slighted, we owe alot to these guys, it would take a lot more than they "made a few mistakes", for me to discount their work or their great contibutions.
If we go back to the original post we can see what the question was;
quote:.257 Roberts. New and once fired Remington brass and CCI 200 primers. IMR 4320 and 100 gr. Sierra SPBTs. Doesn't matter what charge I put in them. Low end all the way to just under max the primers back out the same in all of them. Haven't actually measured but just by looking at them they look the same. Accuracy is very nice with this load at 38.5 grains. Why would the primers move like this? They didn't with the 40 rounds of Hornady factory loads I've put through it. Will be trying WLR primers next.
Is it even a problem if everything else is working right?
We learn the issue is primers backing out on his handloads. There is no mention of expanded primer pockets, loose primer fit or blown primers. Also note that factory ammo worked "normally". I would think it has been explained Ad infinitum that the most likely cause of a protruding primer from a fired case is low pressure followed by and possibly equally as important; over sizing the cases making them too short for the chamber.
MEMPHISJOE,
I'm sorry I didn't recognize you earlier for what you are. You are a TROLL and you need to go away NOW. You are the worst side of the internet spawned by junior high and high school summer vacations and shiftless students that can't find productive things to do with their spare time.
Posters like you, using the same insidious techniques have been here before and they have been made to go away because of the argumentative, asinine, pseudo-technical BS that is worthless drivel. You know nothing and offer nothing except to waste the time of all of the members with your garbage.
GO AWAY, NOW.
Do NOT respond to any more posts at all, ever.
You have no choices, you're done here.
Nice use of "pseudo" there nononsense, and picture! You don't see that prefix to often. I hadn't looked at this thread for a while and couldn't figure ot out it got to be so long. It didn't take long to see why, and I didn't even read all of the replies either.