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Need advice on Accuracy problem
clownboy
Member Posts: 85 ✭✭
Ok, Little trouble on a Brand New Rifle I bought and its inconsistent accuracy. First off, its a Remington 700 BDL 30-06 with a New Bushnell Yardage Pro scope. The scope mounts directly to the base without ring mounts so there isn't any slippage. The shells I am using are hand loaded Nossler Ballistic tip 150gr with careful hand measuring of the powder for each round.
My problem is that after 3 or 4 shots my rounds loose all accuracy. We are talking about going from a 2-3" group at a 100 yards to almost dropping 7". Further more, I did the dollar bill test between the barrel and stock and can only slide it to about 4" before meeting resistance. My theory is that the barrel is heating up and the stock and barrel are making contact causing it to throw off my accuracy.
Anyone else had experience with this that can tell me how to go about solving it? With the gun brand new I am ready to send it back to Remington and tell them they should fix it. I have over $1500 in this firearm and was really looking forward to using it this deer season.
Just expected it would be more accurate then that.
Brad
My problem is that after 3 or 4 shots my rounds loose all accuracy. We are talking about going from a 2-3" group at a 100 yards to almost dropping 7". Further more, I did the dollar bill test between the barrel and stock and can only slide it to about 4" before meeting resistance. My theory is that the barrel is heating up and the stock and barrel are making contact causing it to throw off my accuracy.
Anyone else had experience with this that can tell me how to go about solving it? With the gun brand new I am ready to send it back to Remington and tell them they should fix it. I have over $1500 in this firearm and was really looking forward to using it this deer season.
Just expected it would be more accurate then that.
Brad
Comments
2-3" groups are not even acceptable to me.
How much cooling time are you giving the barrell?
espeacialy with the thin sporter barrels they get hot very fast.
Free floating the barrel may help. But you may also try different loads, different charge wieghts and different powders.
Even my heavy barreled varmint rifles will loose accuracy if I let them get to hot.
Incidently, how do you invest $1500 in a 700/Bushnell rig?
I do find it distressing that my group is so bad. I have a .243 that will overlap shots in the target and at much greater distances. I was simply trying to find a harder knock down rifle to replace it with the same accuracy.
The cool time between shot varied but when I suspected that it might be the cause I would give it a few minutes between shots.
I just read on another forum that they suggest cleaning it between shots for a proper break in and accuracy? Never heard that before but willing to try anything.
As for price, it was right about $740 for the Custom Deluxe rifle and the scope was almost $800 after tax. Then I got the Super Cell recoil pad which tacked a bit more onto it. Not to mention the custom sling and several little extras. I just wanted to do it right!
Brad
The list of potential problems or causes of inaccuracy is long and detailed.
Some of the simple explanations are as follows:
The Remington barrels are hammer forged and as a result, contain a lot of stresses from the process. As your barrel heats up from shooting a string, you'll notice that it can move around. If this movement contacts the sides or bottom of the stock your following shots will go a different direction. This is what I think is the cause of your problem.
The solution for this is to enlarge the barrel channel so that the contact doesn't occur. This can be accomplished with barrel channel scrapers or simply a dowel wrapped with sand paper. I also suggest having the action bedded on pillars to help with consistency and repeatability.
Your load, no matter how carefully assembled may not be as accurate in this particular rifle as you want. We always suggest testing loads by working up from a minimum load to an accurate load as suggested by reloading manuals. If you haven't read any of the reloading introductions, it's very worthwhile for some details and insights. You can also search the forums for dozens of threads about load development.
Start with these two and see where it takes your accuracy.
Best.
Brad
What powder are you using?
Nosler 6 lists
Imr 4831 start 55.0gr. max 59.0
AA3100 start 55.5 max 59.5
IMR4064 start 48.0 max 52.0
W760 start 53.0 max 57.0
IMR4895 start 47.0 max 51.0
Viht N150 start 50.0 max 54.0
IMR4320 start 49.0 max53.0
RL19 start 57.5 max 61.5 (61.5 most Accurate load tested)
IMR4350 start 55.0 max59.0
Big Game start 54.0 max 58.0
Just a little help from the Nosler 6 reloading manual
Appreciate all who have spoken up to help!
Brad
Torque the action screws to proper specifications, following nononsence's advice for bedding.
Did you clean the barrel before shooting it? Are you using a good copper solvent during break in?
One accuracy load that has shot well in every 30-06 I ever had was 46 grains of IMR 4895 pushing a Sierra 168 MK.
Keep us posted on your progress!
My favorite bore cleaner is the "Bore Cleaning Foam" by Break Free. I usually like to follow up with a patch of #9 solvent and a patch of oil.
I am curious on the torque specs for the action screws. Had no idea that there was such a thing but it makes sense to me now. Do you happen to know where I can find the specifications?
The most challenging of trying different powders and bullets is that they aren't readily available to me. Every where that I use to get them is completely out. Even some of the bigger companies through the internet do not have them available. But I will continue to search and see what I can turn up.
Brad
I was using the #19 powder at 61.0 grains. I was using just a half grain less then they recommended.
Appreciate all who have spoken up to help!
Brad
so you just took a suggested load and went with it?? you really need to run a load ladder as well as addressing the stock floating issues.
Conditions all day have been windy so no luck on the range.
I am however worried about the Stock. Its been shellacked/varnished so sanding will be a chore. I am thinking that maybe I should let a gunsmith do this since my knowledge is very limited and tools not abundant.
The scope is sturdy and tight all around. Had a Competent dealer check it out and reassemble it. Since it doesn't use rings there is little chance of slippage in this design. Although I know that the kick on this thing is tremendous and could possibly be jarring the scope. I would think for the price though that it could withstand that. I just cringe to think I spent that much on a junk scope.
Brad
Let a gunsmith bed the action, he will have the mill to ream out the barrel channel.
He is going to correct the floating barrel issue and pinpoint the accuracy problem.
JustC, I really couldn't say on the make and model of his rifle. Never have seen it to tell you the truth. I will check on it though and see if that could be some of the problem.
Brad
or does it start shooting a 7 inch group?
You say: to almost dropping to 7 inchs (appears you are saying that the point of Impact (POI) drops!
If so does is shift slowly to the 7 inchs, like goes to 4 inchs then 7 inchs or ????
You say you had the scope checked! What kind of scope you using that does not have rings??? (If its a rail scope, these are usually for a 22 rifle) There is only one way to check a scope! (Take it off and put another on) (remember that 1/1000 (.001) shift at the barrel (gun) is approx 1 inch at 100 yards so it does not take much for the shift of 7 inchs! If ONE shot from a group is KICKING out all at once then shifting back, like 2" left erratically with a normal scope you can turn the scope 90 degrees in the rings and if it's the scope the flyer will shift 90 degrees in the direction you rotated the scope!
When having problems such as this, (don't waste your money on premium ammo) get a box of ($18/Box) 180 grain Remington ammo or 150 gr and test fire 3 shot groups from a cold barrel! (this is actual hunting conditions tests) If you contact Remington and tell them you are testing RELOADS in the gun, they become suspect that it may have been damaged by YOU, and some companys this will immediately void any warranty if they find out such, so do not mention you are testing RELOADS! If it's a new gun, you should have the gun in a FACTORY AUTHORIZED warranty repair shop for expert no cost warranty repairs! Without doing such can result in the warranty being voided!
All Remington or the AUTHORIZED warranty repair shop needs to know is the gun has ERRATIC ACCURACY!
Good Luck to You!
Glass Bedder, accurizer, reloader, shootist, tinker, all calibers
NRA Member
If they come after your guns, GIVE THEM YOUR BULLETS FIRST!
I will try to be as specific as I can. The first time I sighted in (A couple of weeks prior)I had it grouping about 2 to 3 inches at 100 yds.
The Barrel did get warm but limited my shooting to about 20 rounds.
On the day I wrote about here, I gave 3 shots and (cold barrel and it was to the left and 7" low. I then gave it 28 clicks up and had it near center again. After about 5 more shots it started to draw up and to the left. Again I adjusted and it began to shoot all over the paper. No consistency at all. I was using a gun rest and am pretty confident in my shots.
The scope is the Bushnell Yardage Pro and does run on a Rail mount. Its a wonderful scope that gives you yardage of your shot with a +/- 1 yard. The Gunsmith I took it to was familiar with the scope and didn't believe that it was the problem. He believes that it is most likely the barrel getting hot and the stock is pushing up on the barrel and throwing the shot off.
As for sending it to Remington, I decided against it. Worried that if I had I may not get it back in a timely matter. The gentleman that I gave it to has been doing this for a long time so its in good hands.
He said that he had seen this problem before with Remington rifles.
I do believe he will get to the bottom of it.
Got to say that this doesn't solidify my confidence in Remingtion and their "Out of the Box Accuracy". Hopefully its my mistake and I can regain confidence in them again.
Brad
It's frustrating as all get out when you buy a new rifle and that's all it holds for accuracy. What you're describing isn't at the norm for Remington. Nor is it acceptable.
From what I understand you've changed the scope. Used a load from a friend you felt was safe, but that's it. No other load development. I could give you a list of things I've had go wrong but at this point it's academic. Let us know what your gunsmith finds, so we can have the information.
FWIW, I have a friend who bought a brand new Rem 700 in .260. It would group a couple okay then throw one. Next group, same thing. he finally took it in and found the crown was dinged. It wasn't clearly visible to the naked eye. The gunsmith found it by going down the checklist he has for troubleshooting.
Anyways, I hope this turns out well for you.
Also it kinda sounds like the barrel is pressuring upwards as it heats, but the flyers starting to go all over the paper after the POI shifts upward is ???
Also like sandwarrior says, this is not the norm for Remington! One of the FIRST things that Rem will ask is did you try another scope! I've seen guys shoot-up $1000 worth of ammo (not even counting their time at the bench, and time reloading and looking for a load) and have a bad high dollar scope! (especially on the hard kickers like the 06)
Don't loose your faith in Remington, as you have not Given them a chance yet to even try and correct your issues!
Let us know what you find?
So I do acknowledge that this problem isn't a norm for Remington.
I did not try another scope on this rifle. Would be very disappointed if it turned out to be the problem as it was a very expensive scope. Always believed to buy a scope equal or greater then the $ value of the rifle. The features of this scope are redemptive even if this one is defective. Since its new I am sure it will be under warranty.
I am considering calling the Gunsmith and asking about adding a muzzle-brake to it. Friend of mine discouraged me doing that to a new rifle but seems like it might help with the grouping and recoil. Has anyone done this with the same model and had success? Are the improvements on accuracy well worth the expense?
Thanks again to everyone!
Brad
Has anyone done this with the same model and had success? Are the improvements on accuracy well worth the expense?
This will immediately void any warranty to the gun from Rem! and muzzle brake won't help a bad barrel or group UNLESS THE PROBLEM IS YOU SHUTTING YOUR EYES AND JERKING THE TRIGGER on a hard kicking gun, and this is what most factory tech's think when they hear about bad groups out of hard kicking guns, they think it's the shooter and not the gun. We are assuming that you are shooting the gun from sandbags, and the BARREL is not touching the rests and NOT shooting scross the hood of a vec or off-hand shooting! (muzzle brakes do reduce felt recoil, but you don't add a muzzle brake to correct barrel accuracy) Try the 150 grain bullets (Remington brand after you get it grouping)
My advice would be to leave the muzzle brake off until you get a group you can live with! And you won't believe how much difference in recoil a 150g bullet vs the harder kicking 180g bullet out of a factory load 06! (do not try any lighter bullet than 150 yet, because most Rem 06's don't group well with bullets lighter than 150g. (normally the barrel twist is for 180g and even 220 gr which will kick your eye teeth out if the 180's are hurting you) You have found that the 06 recoil is not user friendly like the 243, but in a hunting situation you normally won't notice a shot or two out of the 06 like you do at the shooting bench!
We use muzzle brakes on some guns to reduce felt recoil, with very good results! (Muzzlebrakes do real good USUALLY with the real hard kickers, such as the 300win mags) Be-Aware that bystanders can get their ears busted if standing at about a 45 degree angle and beside you from the barrel blast coming backwards!
If you ever get your ears rung by a muzzlebrake, (as a bystander) You will never forget such! (can very easily lose a eardrum)
I was actually shooting from the Corps Of Engineers Public Range. Very nice with pavilions and shooting benches/stools. (Our tax dollars at work) Had a sand bag and a shooters rest for the majority of the shots.
Eye's were wide open to the best of my knowledge. I tried to not anticipate each shot so that I wouldn't flinch. Had good control over my breathing and held my shot until everything was steady.
But hey, sometimes you can do everything right and still flinch so I can't completely rule out as a possibility.
Brad
PS Got my curiosity twinging on the 220gr now. Where do you find those?
A muzzle brake MAY help accuracy by shifting a harmonic node forward.
Remington uses a pressure pad (about 4" back from the stock tip) to try and control the barrel harmonics. Try a different scope first, than different bullet weights and brands of ammo (IE: try Rem green box 150, 165 and 180gr bullets, than try different brands/grades of the weight that shot the best from the greenbox stuff). Rifles often show a preferance to one bullet weight and brand/type of ammo. If that dosn't start getting you decent groups (consistant 1" 3 shot groups) than contat either Remington or a good gunsmith.
BTW, chasing your rounds with the scope is a great way to frustrate the hell out of yourself. Fire 3 from a cold barrel, adjust to move that group to center and LEAVE THE SCOPE ALONE. When the barrel starts to heat up, it's going to "walk the shots", let it cool. Rule of thumb, if you can leave your bare wrist on the barrel 2-4" ahead of the chamber, it's cool enough to shoot again.
Okie, most people don't consider the 30-06 at it's 17-20lb/ft of recoil to be a hard kicker at all. Put a few rounds out of a real thumper (90lb/ft and up) than try the wimpy little -06 again [:D]
So what you are saying is I should go out and buy all the 220 gr bullets I can. Maybe use them for plinking around and frog hunting.Yep, I can just imagine the possibilities. HA!
I imagine we will save that day of fun on the third week of never!
Can't damage this baby face.
Brad
Okie, most people don't consider the 30-06 at it's 17-20lb/ft of recoil to be a hard kicker at all. Put a few rounds out of a real thumper (90lb/ft and up) than try the wimpy little -06 again
You are correct! He's been using a 243! We use the big mag's so when we go to a 06, no problems, but when guys and gals have been at the 243 level and start up it takes some adjustment, sometimes! Loan him your thumper for a few days before he starts testing again and he will think he is shooting a 22 long rifle!
Good Luck to You'all and stay cool!
But I take no offense. I am a wimp when it comes to being kicked in the shoulder. Working on that though so maybe in a few weeks I will be picking up an Elephant rifle.
B
Have a very nice recoil pad added to it and he worked on making the barrel free floating.
I have taken it out the past two days and shot about 2 boxes of ammo through it. As for the tight grouping it is OUTSTANDING!
I can cluster in about an inch group at 100 yards. Not using anything other then two small sand bags, I thought that was good.
Here is what I am facing now. The first 2 rounds when the barrel is cold goes to the left of center about 2". At the third shot and on it moves over almost 2" to the right of center. I was real concious of not allowing the barrel to heat up and allowed it to sit and cool after five rounds. Once it heated though it was dead on every time.
I could aim 2" left and hit center.
What is my deal here and can it be fixed? A new friend who is a machinist said that it is most likely in the metal of the barrel.
Something about (and I may be butchering this) that the way the metal was treated when it was being forged. He said they should heat the barrel up to 600 to 700 degrees during each manufacturing process of the barrel to keep it "True" when the metal is heated from firing. He believes that this might have not been done.
With that explanation it seems like I have an inaccurate rifle that I paid a lot of money for. Anyone else experience this?
Best,
Brad
(PS - Gunsmith said that the scope was loose and that is why it was jumping)
One other thing. Not sure how much experience you have with reloading but it sounds like you may have just jumped in on the recommendation of a friend. While the load you used "should" be fine you really need to get two or three manuals and read all the stuff in the front. Once you do that you'll probably start comparing the books and rereading many parts. Easy to just jump in to the load data and go but start on page one. You'll be glad you did.
Yes, ideally you will kill s deer with one shot but I would like to know that if needed, the follow up shots will hit where I aim. What use is the 5 round magazine if you can only shoot 2 accurately?
Aggravating - Absolutely Aggravating!
I was shooting in groups of five and taking my time between shots. At each five rounds I would leave the breach open and walk 200 yards before firing again. (100 yds down range and 100 yds back) This should have left ample time for cooling, correct?
I do appreciate your help and will try some of your suggestions. Will also continue to spend time at the range and get this worked out. Just never had an issue like this with any other weapon I own.
Best,
Brad
Hot barrel situations in my experience are pretty consistant. When they start moving you just get a string of shots leading away from your initial group and usually in the same direction and a particular rifle will move the same way every time.
Remington still makes one of the best out of the box barrels. But as a custom barrel maket once told me a long time ago: "You can take a blank (bar), cut it in half to make two barrels out of it, one will win matches and the other will shoot like crap." Barrel making has come a long way since then.
It sounds like you may have a flaw in your barrel. After shooting two shots the copper may be filling in an imperfetion. It's not the end of the world. You can lap the barrel with a number of different products. Tubbs makes one of the best ones on the market and it's easy to use. It may be the problem and it can't hurt if done right.
Sounds like you have a nice rifle, buy a good scope for it.
We are still telling you to get another scope for a test! You can get a set of Weaver bases and rings at wally world for less than $20! (Note that I said WEAVER, do not get the cheap weaver STYLE which are clones and inferior! (stay with the WEAVER name)The weaver style stuff is what has gave WEAVER scope mounts a bad rap over the years! Weaver mounts are some of the best for the money when correctly applied! When I hear someone say they don't like weaver mounts for a Remington 700, I immediately know they don't know what they are doing! See if you can dig up any kind of scope and do the test!
You can also test the barrel for floating by sliding a dollar bill down the barrel channel! If it's floating it will be free both with hot barrel and a cold barrel!
Now you need to realize that we are only talking about approx .002 inchs of shift for 2 inchs at 100 yards! I give you one other thing to kick around! Search on the internet and at Brownells about glass bedding the action and floating the barrel. Do both the Tang, rear and the recoil lug and 2 inchs or so forward of the recoil lug with brownells acraglass gel! If you want to check the existing wood to metal for binding place a micrometer caliper at the front of the stock at about the sling attachement and loosen and tighten the front recoil stock screw while the rear tang screw stays tight! If you see the caliper moving ANY the action is warping into the stock as you tighten the screws! (keep in mind that each .001 that the caliper moves will be approx 1 inch shift at 100 yards! The caliper should remain completely dead if you ever want to expect a non-creeping point of impact! I glass bed all guns dead by doing this! If you see the caliper moving, simply start adding shims at the front behind the recoil lug which usually correct the warpage, if not shim the rear tang! I like to use the aluminum roof flashing or you can cut shims from a aluminum beer can and re-test! After you have found the dead point, even after glass bedding, skin bed with the shim in place to make the action dead! Afterwards you can completely remove and re-install a stock and the gun will remain at POI or within normally 1/2 inch at 100 yards!
You are getting a good lesson at tuning a rifle so stay calm as you are close!
You will also find that fine tuning a reload will come next, unless you are real lucky and hit a good accurate the first time!
None of you fella's have seen it for yourself so I know its very hard for you to narrow down. This just a great place to get feedback from Pro's out here!
With that said, I am studying the suggestions with Remingtongeo & Okie with awe. This is looking more and more like I am getting out of my understanding. I have many skills and attributes but this may be above my pay grade. Okie made a good point about it stringing a series of shots instead of just jumping. What is really sad is I bought a HIGH dollar scope to avoid these problems and now its in question. I have a few cheapies sitting around here but I sure hate to screw with it before deer season next Saturday.
I did have a weaver base and scope on it for about a week but never really tried it out. (My mistake) I was looking to fire it with a nicer scope and didn't want to waste ammo. After Deer season I will pull it apart and start all over.
The other modifications that you mentioned (Okie and Remington) I may do but leave it to professionals. Any great suggestions of people who are top notch and trustworthy to do this? I don't mind paying for it if the end result is an accurate rifle that looks Good.
What about my $800 scope? Do you think its about time to ditch it?
Do you believe maybe the recoil is messing with the accuracy of it?
Read an article that some scope just can't handle the recoil. I just thought it was a good scope from the reviews I had read with the bonus feature of a rangefinder.
Brad
If the scope isn't the problem, bedding is the next place I'd look. Take the action out of the stock and put a thin coat of bedding black (or black paste shoe polish) on the barrel. Put it back together, tighten the screws, maybe even fire a couple of rounds, then take it apart again and you get a better idea of where your bedding is.
Also keep in mind on the dial capiper test that I mentioned that if the inletting is too deep (top or bottom of the wood) the magazine box will be pushing up against the bottom of the action and cause the micrometer to crawl! (just add a shim washer UNDER the floorplates back and front screws to get some relief!
The micrometer test is one of the final tests of all to see if all is well even after glass bedding! If turning the front recoil screw causes the micrometer readings to change, this also indicates that the gun's POI is changing with the torque of the screw, which is not desirable! When you get it dead you can remove and re-install the stock with little if any change in POI at 100 yds! (keep in mind that the barrel is floating at the area of the dial caliper, therefore you cannot apply and finger closing pressure to the jaws of the caliper or you will be warping the barrel inwards and getting a false reading! (you can try this before you start taking readings!
You can do the micrometer test by yourself after few practice runs! (may have to get a helper at first until you get familiar with the procedure!
Make sure the HOLLOW GROUND screwdriver fits the front recoil real good because you will be working with one hand holding the dial caliper and the other loosening and tightening the recoil screw with the gun laying on a towel on a table!
Good Luck to You!
Got out and shot it again and decided its doable for this deer season.
It once more shot the same pattern,2 dead center and third fourth off to the right. I didn't do the caliper thing because I figure that I simply don't know what I am doing. I did however find someone who is going to do some serious work on it for me after this season is over.
So what all should I ask for him to do. From this topic I learned lapping the barrel, bedding the action, and wasn't there something I heard about freezing the barrel? Forgot what that is called.
But I will get it fixed one way or another.
Thanks again for all the helpful advice. Learned a lot just off this one topic!
Best to you,
Brad