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NEED 243 WIN HELP!!!!!

uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
Ok, I was just bragging last week about my sweet 600 yard shot and saying im an amateur re loader. Well, this proves it. I just got done reloading my 30-06 when I decided to reload my 243. I trimmed the cases to spec and lubed some up for resizing. I made sure the die just kissed the press ram, then did one more 1/8th turn. I re sized a case and the bolt didn't close. I then turned it clockwise one more 1/8th turn making it 1/4 from the first initial touch of the press ram. It fit perfect, very easy to close the bolt. I locked the nut on it making sure the sizing die didn't move at all. I then took case two, sent it through the die, wiped it off of the lube and put it in my rifle. The bolt wound not close. I checked the length, it is perfect.

After repeating this process about 5 times, this pattern always happened. The first case would re size perfect with the bolt closing very easily and then the next one wouldn't even close the bolt!!!!

I tore apart my sizing die only to discover that it had been teflon taped with a lot of rust. I lubed it up so it spun a little easier and steel wooled it to get the rust off. I put it all back together, and reset the die. Tried the process again and again, the first case would fit perfect the bolt closes with no over pressure, the way a bolt should. Then the second case, the bolt wouldn't close. I am really baffled.

As stated above and in previous posts, I am an amateur reloader and have only loaded 3 calibers. I have NEVER encountered this problem before. Any one know what I am doing wrong? I think it is something very simple.

It is a ruger M77 MarkII. Only 20 rounds have been through it (to break in the barrel and sight it in with factory bullets).

Thanks guys. :)

-JD

Comments

  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It sounds like your press is catching on it's linkage or something. I have the same thing sometimes when I'm seating bullets. I get one perfect and the next is like the bullet got shoved in there and shoulders bulged. But, I know the linkage in my press now has a little play in it after 40,000 some odd rounds.

    Anyhow, check and see if it is that, or if you are just getting that much variation in your brass. Take a sharpie pen and color the shoulder and neck of your cases and see where they are hitting in your chamber.

    Edit:

    With 1/4 turn I'm assuming you are 'camming over?'
  • zimmdenzimmden Member Posts: 237 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I assume these cases were not fired in your .243. If so, how many times? If they came out OK, they should chamber OK when empty. Your resizing die expander ball may be over size or the neck sizer way undersize. As you raise the press handle withdrawing the ball, it may be so tight it is pulling the neck and shoulder upward resulting in too much headspace. If you have the tools, measure headspace and neck dia. before and after resizing.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    None of these cases has been fire (except the 20). Actually some of them chamber perfect before i re size them, i re size them for the neck size and then they don't fit. I could just re size to punch out the primer and neck size and leave the shoulder alone.

    I have a mic, i'll mark up a case and do the measurements, and measure before and after and update. The cases have been fired once. My father gave me a bunch (200+) and who knows how many times they have been fired.

    Could you also explain what "camming over" means? haha as i said, im a newbie to this. =)

    -JD
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 12,967 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I trim AFTER sizing. I've encountered several problems with 243 brass in a couple of Savage bolt actions. Finally got a small base sizer that cured the problem totally. The 243 is the only brass I have this problem with except for 7.62 that's been fired through MG's.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by uni82
    None of these cases has been fire (except the 20).

    I meant none have been fired through my rifle. They have all been fired before dont know how many times either.

    -JD
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Update!!!

    Figured it out. After I resize the case, it is then longer than it is suppose to be (2.045"). Thanks for everything guys!

    -JD
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    uni82,

    Glad you found out what it was.

    What I mean by camming over, and you should do this in your case (pun intended, I guess) I believe, because you stated you got about 200 rounds from your father in law. Those cases are formed to his chamber.

    'Camming over' is instead of your shellholder just kissing the die you actually screw the die down just a little more. So that, when you push a shell up into it the shellholder and die meet with a little bit of press arm travel to go. You then take that press arm all the way to the bottom. You notice it because once you reach a certain point, the press arm holds downward pressure. You adjust it so that there is a little bit of 'cam-over' not a lot. This is usually good for shells that have come from another rifle and/or specifically semi-autos. If 'cam-over' isn't enough to fully resize these cases back to your rifle then you may need to go to small base dies. When loading for my AR I cam over. When loading for my bolt .223 I don't. When I pick up match brass at the range that was run through an M1A I cam over for my .308. After that I don't.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks sand warrior, really helpful. I think im going to do that! I love trying new stuff, especially if it works. haha thanks again!

    -JD
  • zimmdenzimmden Member Posts: 237 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Once you fireform the cases in your gun, you might consider using a bushing neck sizing die for future reloadings. You are over working the brass if you have to trim the length back after one or two loadings. This kind of neck sizing increases the life of the cases where 30 to 60 loadings are possible and almost eliminates trimming especially if you anneal cases.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'll look into it. As i said, im a newbi still and love the world of reloading!

    -JD
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    243 brass can be tricky sometimes!

    You will find that usually the 243 brass re-sizes more user friendly if you WILL NOT USE THE SRRAY ON sizer LUBES! I use the RCBS lube on a pad for 243 and 6mm brass or I immediately go to the OLD style RCBS lube for any brass that I'm having sizing issues!
    I also take a Q-tip and lightly oil the cotton and sparingly apply little touch to the very tip of the inside of the case neck! This keep the neck sizing spud from sticking and stretching a trimmed case out too long and also can result in the shoulder of the case being pulled out also!
    I degrease the cases inside and out after seeing that all are ok for a fit!
    You will also find that 243 type brass IS NOT STRAiGHT WALLED, so neck sizing ONLY is not as user friendly for some 243 gun chambers, and some require full sizing with each firing which shortens the life of the brass!
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Awesome. I actually use a spray lube...but they are all rezied and trimmed and chamber fine now.

    My next step is finding a load. I have some extra 105 Gr Speer round nose 6mm lying around. I also have IMR 4895. Anyone know a good load for this bullet?

    I will be shooting at Ruger M77 and unfortunately it has a 1:12 twist. Will it stabilize this bullet or should I not waste my powder and other resources and just get a 85 BTHP sierras?

    Thanks again!


    -JD
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    uni82

    The 1-12" twist will not stabilize the 105 of any kind in .243/6mm. Best bet is to find 85 or 90 gr. bullets. It's kind of iffy with the 1-12" but you might try a box of the Nosler 95 gr. BT's.

    Remember with stabilization it's not weight it's length. Some 95 gr. bullets I can't get to stabilize with 1-10" twists. Sierra and some of my rifles with the Berger 95 gr. VLD.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    awesome. thanks for the help. I like Sierras 85 BTHP's. I think i might pick up a box of those because i really dont need the gr weight for varments. Will 85Gr do well for coyote? I have only used my 270 130gr pills for coyotes, and that obviously does well.

    -JD
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You say you are using the spray lube! Eventually get some RCBS case lube 2 and a roll pad if you want to make the 243 brass sizing more user friendly!
    Also you will be lucky if the 105 and IMR4895 produce any good results!
    Two things about the recipe, the powder is little fast on the rate chart and the bullet is little heavy for the 1/12 twist, but of course you never know, that's part of testing! I think most 243's nowdays are like 1/9 or 1/10 twist and they usually kinda like the 80-85 grain bullet area! The 1/12 is kinda considered slower twist, so 75 grain bullets and IMR4350 might be a preference for this gun! (75 grain bullets will usually yield more velocity and would be a good varmit load)

    For hunting and working up a load I would go with the following

    I would consider going with a 85 grain Sierra Spitzer (flat base bullet) and IMR4350 and load 3 rounds each of the powder at the LOW end, Medium, and final load at 1 grain below max, and let the barrel cool between the 3 shot groups! If you see a load that's promising, reload and retest, then go 1/2 grain each side of the powder load for fine tuning! (set the bullet a the reloading manual OAL)
    Usually the 243 will be fine hunting gun and accurate, easily averaging 1 1/4 inch groups at 80 yards from sandbags if you do YOUR part!

    Alliant has a new powder RL17 that is for the 243 caliber guns!
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by uni82

    I will be shooting at Ruger M77 and unfortunately it has a 1:12 twist.


    I was wrong. I rechecked the twist rate. It is a 1:10 twist. I'm back in the game. I think I'm going to go with a 85 Gr BTHP Sierra!

    Starting Gr is 36.5. Max is 40.6 of IMR 4895 I'll test loads and update everyone. Won't be able to reload for about 2 weeks after today, plus i need to get 85 gr pills. When it happnes ill keep everyone posted.

    Any thoughts or concerns I need to be aware of?

    -JD
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    NEW PROBLEM WITH THE 243 WINCHESTER!!!! Baffled again....

    Now that the cases are resized to the perfect size (very smooth with the bolt from open to close), primered, charged and seated a bullet, the BOLT DOES NOT CLOSE!!!!! WTH. I Seated the bullet to the MAX OAL.

    Does anyone know what I may be doing wrong? I have never had this problem with my other rifles (243,270,sks,308, 357 mag). I am a newbi but i have a little experience built up.

    I bought 85GR HPBT pills and im running my test loads started groups of 3 sith 35.5gr, 36.0, 36.5, 37.5gr (VERY CLOSE TO MAX). After I figure out which one shoots best I will critique it with tenths tests.

    -JD
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    uni82,

    Since this is happening after you checked your sized cases to your chamber it would probably be the fact you loaded the bullets to the max OAL. Your bullets may well be getting stuffed into the lands. Have a look-see at the bullets that won't chamber. If they are too long you will see the land marks right where the ogive meets the body of the bullet. They are maybe about 1/64"-1/32" wide. And only as far down the body as you could push them with your bolt.

    For an easier time of it see what happens when you seat to minimum OAL.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We are assuming that you ARE NOT attempting to crimp the bullet in your cases!
    Do like sandwarrior says and look closely at your bullets and see if they are contacting the lands of the rifling! (you can carbon smoke the bullet to get a better view of the land imprints. You can also use your micrometer and mic the OD of the case neck before you install a bullet again afterwards and make sure the neck has not grown in OD!
    If the brass case is hard to extract it's usually the brass case that is being distorted and usually what causes this is the bullet seating die is not adjusted correctly and is screwed down too far and the case is being crimped into the bullet and the brass case distorts at the neck and shoulder! Simply unscrew the die couple turns and then turn in the bullet seat stem until you get the desired OAL!
    You can feel the crimping part of the bullet seating die if you install a trimmed and sized good hull into the press with the bullet seating die backed way off and very slowly bring the press ram to the top of its stroke, then slowly turn in the bullet seating die until it just touchs the case neck, going by feel, then back it off 1-2 turns, then set the bullet seating stem for the desired OAL of the bullet. These instructions are with most bullet seating dies!
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Update. OAL length was a little to long even at the "max" I shorted it up to fit nice and snug. live and learn!

    Found my load. 37.3 grs of IMR 4895. 85 gr bthp. shot real nice groups.

    thanks for everyone who has helped me with the bump in my road, the 243. i have conquered it!


    -JD
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