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Opinions

oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm always amazed at the differences in our opinions. I suppose they are based on experience, mine are, always. If I have no knowledge of the subject, I leave it for someone else.

The Power Belt one for instance..I think PB's are one of the greatest modern day inventions for in line muzzle loaders, but someone else describes them as "junk."

Are we that different? Is there some objective truth somewhere that we all miss? Or..Do we just decide that advice is a completely useless concept?

I'm not fighting with anyone. I respect all the opinions I read here. I'm just plastered by the differences.


This might be better for General Discussion, but here it is..

Comments

  • CubsloverCubslover Member Posts: 18,601
    edited November -1
    The price has always been a turn off for me. I'm very happy with the Hornady SST that I am shooting now. A friend of mine shoots PB's and hasn't been able to break 3" - 100yd groups. I can get under 2" consistently with a CHEAP scope. I now have a Nikon on it and haven't hit theh range to sight it in. I might be able to close in on 1" groups with the scope and the benchrest.
    Half of the lives they tell about me aren't true.
  • R D HenryR D Henry Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oldgunner, I'm with ya. Whether it's on this board, or any of the others, if I don't have a logical or factual answer...I leave it alone. [8D]

    I've been shooting Cowboy matches since the late 80's, but I don't consider myself an expert in the field. There's been a ton of different toys that have passed through the safe, so I can base a lot of my answers on past experience with various equipment.

    When I answer someone's question, it's based on things I've tried, and either had good luck with, or failed miserably! [:p]
  • powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    I have used the Power Belts and I use RB. I prefer a patched round ball. I will say the Power Belts load a bit faster. But as for accuracy and knock down power I don't think you can beat a RB. If the PB seats just a little off your accuracy will go out the window. Well...mayhap not out the window, but off. That can make the difference between venison on the table or...well you fill in your own or.

    I think, just me personally, the PBs leave a bit too much plastic residue also. But then...I have to swab the barrel with BP every third shot anyhow. Just don't have to do it with a plastic cutting solvent.
  • amsptcdsamsptcds Member Posts: 679
    edited November -1
    hehehe...
    There probably IS objective truth. It is possible that differing opinions on the same subject that sort of relate to each other show that maybe both persons have some sort of view of it, but see different aspects of it.

    Some things are so complicated that it is hard to find some absolute answer. Consider .36 cal bp guns. There doesn't seem to be an optimum round ball/powder load that works best for all pistols. there are so many variances between guns that even chrony data shot by say a Pietta, will not transfer to an Uberti. Though in some cases it may, it doesn't seem to fit the criteria for a general rule.

    There are always variances with ball size and powder compression etc. and etc.. It may be the case that there is no objective truth of the matter, just a rough sort of rule of thumb.

    In some case where there isn't an objective truth, yet someone insists that there is... that insistence itself is the cause of much consternation and trouble. All arguments (logical and emotional) seem to lead to stalemate and bad feelings sometimes.

    For the most part, it seems that differences arise from the differentiation in internal biases (meaning experiences)of the interlocutors. The outcome of discussion of opinions will depend upon the type of persons engaged.

    With powerbelts, there may be people out there who have never had a satisfactory experience with them. And this COULD be because they have never utilized them right, nor found the right "dial in" configuration that they need. I would suggest that they give up due to too much frustration and form the opinion that: PBs are all F'd Up! We can all easily understand that!

    This is not an objective observation, but a subjective one. Because: if out of 100 users 25 say they are bad, the other 75 show it is not.
    If 50 out of 100 say so, then it would indicate a problem with the product, yet still would not fit the generalization that : PBs are all F'd Up!
    If 90 out of 100 get no success, yet 10 do, then I would be INCLINED to agree, yet 10 shooters report success.

    To find the "truth" about anything, ALL the variables have to be considered. Its just that most people don't do that, so we get stuck in these little battles over unfiltered opinions.

    But advice is a completely different subject.
    Do we receive bad advice? Sure.
    We also receive good advice.

    Whether to accept or reject advice is another experiential/opinion thing and has nothing to do with truth, beyond whether the advice turns out to be good advice or bad advice.

    We are not that different from each other beyond our psychological differences in the way we facilitate information. Yet none of us can speak about anything that we have no experience of including what we have heard from others or read somewhere.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    When it comes to guns I'm not an expert on anything and when it comes to BP I know next to nothing.

    What makes this forum so much fun for me is the willingness of the members to share in their experiences. Those experiences and opinions are often highly varied and the discussions of Power Belts highlight that fact very well.

    Most of my local hunting buddies LOVE them but there were enough stories of them breaking apart that it made me think twice before using them to go after an elk that has taken me 12 years to draw. The opinions here run the same vain, people either love them or hate them.

    My .02 is that they have a great idea, but I would like them to put together some better built projectiles that that still provide for some expansion.


    My 1st posts were here in the more than a year ago as I tried to figure the best way to hunt elk with BP. I hope this year I get to put the book end on that topic with pics of a nice bull posted here.
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    amsptcds..A very good response, thanks! Some of the others are good also.

    Powder dammit, you showin' up outta the woodwork again. HOWDY and welcome!! It's great to see you posting.

    For you, and I know you're a purist..I have two sides..I love the original old side locks and with them I wouldn't even IMAGINE anything other than round balls. However, I sometimes enjoy inlines as well, and from all my experience with them, I believe they love power belts, triple seven pellets and 209 primers. As muchas I loves ya Clyde, I refuse to limit meself to anything..hehehe[:D][:D]
  • powdersmokepowdersmoke Member Posts: 3,241
    edited November -1
    Oh gee! I feel warm and fuzzy all over.

    (Just don't try ta put cher arm around me.)[:p][:D]
  • ussarizonaussarizona Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm new at black powder. What's a Power Belt? Is that a brand name? Is it a type or style?

    Also another question that nags me. Remember 'Quigley Down Under'? He loaded cartridges into that Sharps. Were they center fire? If so, what did the hammer strike since it was mounted on the side of the gun? I read on the internet about paper cartridges and how the block cuts the paper to expose the charge, then the percussion cap ignites it, but how does the brass cartridge accomplish that? Is that a 'trap door' cartridge? Are the cases re-useable? Is there a little hinge on the cartridge? I know....dopey little questions, but I'm having trouble finding the answers. Thanks for your help.

    Ron
  • ahanksterahankster Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oldgunner,
    Differences of opinion and a broad spectrum of experiences is exactly what makes Amerca and boards like this great. Take what info applies to you and use it, what doesn't you can ignore. Sorry up front for the long post, but I wanted to get the info out there.

    Since I am the one that said Power Belts are junk, I think I should answer as to why and address your questions on differences.

    One reason you get varied differences of opinion is different levels of use. This scenario is not limited to the PB situation, but many other products and practices often used by outdoorsmen. There are people here that kill one deer in the past 3 years with a PB and will defend them to the death. Others will use a particular product and get lucky with it once and think it is awesome, while people that use similar products day in and out know they are junk. How many fishermen do you know that pull out the same lure, time after time, that they caught one lunker with 5 years ago, but not one fish since? Some people will talk good about a particular product and relate their experience from now till end of times based largely on the fact that they spent their money on it and for that reason alone. This is bad for two reasons. First, other sportsmen waste their money on the product based on this poor info and then if enuff of them start passing gas about it (dispite the facts) then you end up with a product that is selling and should not be, just suckering more and more people in. Then, there are other people that relate their experiences based on direct observation. Folks that hunt every day, or nearly so, and have opportunities to directly participate in, or observe the end result of, large numbers of animal kills using different types of firarms and projectiles. Then, there is a group that is somewhere in between. Like someone posted earlier, if I don't have direct knowledge of a product or technique, I don't post about it. I may use some second hand info as additional support, if I know the person that I got it from. But, if I don't have personal experience as a starting point, I keep my mouth shut. Believe me, I have no dog in the fight w/ PBs. I wish they DID work up to 2000 fps, that would be great. I think that there are ways to get them to work, but the company just won't improve their product, and that is another problem.

    Now, directly to PBs. Do I think they are junk? Well, the way that most people use them based on advertisements and "mag loads" the answer is yes. If people would load them in a reasonable range, that being about 70 to 90 grains of FF for a 295 grain PB, then they work very well. Problem with PBs is that people over charge them. Like ANY bullet on the planet, if they are pushed to fast, they will fail. I have personally witnessed numerous numbers of PBs fail, explode on impact, fragment interanally leaving no exit hole, even one that blew up on a shoulder and did not penetrate the body cavity. These were all the result of 100 to 150 grain charges. The problem comes in because of the advertisements, hunting shows and the typical American hunter. If 100 grains is good, 150 grains is better!!!!!! Not.

    I am in a position that I get to hunt almost every day of deer season and see large numbers of deer taken with M/Lers. Between 50 and 100 a year. My comments are based on direct observation and personal use. I guess I didn't mention that when I first started M/Ling four years ago, I did what almost everyone does, listen to the advertisements and ease of loading for PBs. I killed two cull bucks with them. Both were 295 grain bullets and 100 grains, two 50 grain pellets, of 777, both were broadside at 40 to 50 yards. Both bullets hit the animals broadside, penetrated to the lungs and exploded. One had fragments exit the other side, the other had no exit wound and no part of the bullet was larger than a fingernail. Both left no blood trail and had there been thick cover, difficult to recover. Since then, I have seen many deer killed with PBs. I have also tracked and found, as well as tracked and never found, lots of deer hit with PBs. The scenario is almost always the same. 40 yard broadside shot, 100 to 150 grains of powder and a 295 grain or lighter PB. No blood trail, bullet has explosive failure, and a difficult to find deer. Several, we have found a day or two later, after the coyotes or buzzards did.

    I have been hearing from some camps and guides that they will no longer guide hunters using PBs because of the problems. I for one advise new M/L hunters to stay away from them unless they load appropriately and if they insist on a magnum load, go with a Hornady XTP, Shockwave, or any number of other quality JACKETED bullet.

    Hank
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hank, dang good post. I'm glad I checked back on this one.
    I only know three people personally who use PB's. My brother, my cousin, and myself, and they've been great for us. We usually get all the deer we can handle with ML's and don't even hunt the regular season. However..that's a limited sampling for sure, and you might have much better and wider experience.
  • dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oldgunner,

    Good question, and you got some excellent responses as well.

    One other variable that I'd add would be the motivation behind the user, and the anticipated results vs. the realized results.

    If someone is trying their best to be a purist (shooting only originals, making their own black powder etc.) then a Power Belt will be considered junk regardless of its actual performance.

    If someone reads reviews, and hears from others that any new product is the greatest thing ever to hit the industry, and when THEY try it out get mediocre results, then they will feel let down by the product.

    If you hear and read a product is absolutely useless, and you get mediocre results, you will be pleased with the performance, because it surpassed your expectations.

    IMHO, just because you may receive conflicting answers to a question, it doesn't necessarily mean that any of the answers are wrong. It does give you a pretty good starting point to then form your own opinion on what is correct for you, in your particular situation.
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ussarizona, power belts are bullets made for black powder rifles that are a bit smaller than the barrel size. The difference is made up by seating them in a plastic base that catches the rifling. The main purpose is easy loading. You can push them down the barrel with one finger.

    On the Quigley Sharps thing..Hmmm, good question, and one I can't answer either. I believe the cartridge is a centerfire, but how it's fired by a side lock I'd never even thought of. Are we sure it's a sidelock? I know it looks like one. I'm sure the answer is here in the group. Anyone?
  • mbsamsmbsams Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I will never understand it - what's with all this modern "junk" for a muzzleloader? Makes no sense. Why did you buy one of those new fangled contraptions that shoot sabots or some other exotic bullet? Muzzleloaders and hunts should be "pure". A muzzleloader should look like and work like the genuine article -- bullets should be like those of the era, mostly round with a patch. Powder should be real black powder only. Otherwise just take your 30-30 and quite trying to tell me you hunt with a muzzleloader/ 209 primed, bolt action, scoped, 777 burin', sobot shootin' hunk of junk. GET REAL.
  • ahanksterahankster Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mb,
    If you are so concerned about "pure", you should be hunting with a sharp stick and a rock, starting fires with a flint and wearing the stinky ole skins from your kills.

    I am real, so are thousands of other hunters.

    I'll take my 200 yard shooting, sabot loading, 777 eating, 4x14 power scoped muzzle loader any day. I'll play with the others on occaision too.

    You shoot what you want and I'll shoot what I want. I don't care what gun, muzzle loader or sharp stick you use. You aren't in a position to judge anyone.

    That is about as pure as it gets.
    Hank
  • CubsloverCubslover Member Posts: 18,601
    edited November -1
    Well said. I take my High fangled ML out because I know those ultra-penetrating, super-expanding, fast sabot's deliver on game performance that those round balls can't. I use them to make the kill more humane. It has nothing to do with being pure. At least I don't take pot shots at a deer at 500yds with a hi-po, as they aren't allowed here.
    Half of the lives they tell about me aren't true.
  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,825
    edited November -1
    When it comes to muzzle loaders ... there are many variables ... way too many to be all that categorical about most things! What works for one shooter may not work at all well for another. Listen and learn and try it for yourself ... and keep on trying different things and barrels and guns and powders and bullets and balls and sights and techniques and ... have fun!
  • mbsamsmbsams Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sabot shooters ain't noten' but a bunch o' gal darn twinkie eaters.
  • ahanksterahankster Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mb,
    Get it right, I am a pure twinkie eater.
    Hank
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hank, thank you. You beat me to it..[:D]
  • mbsamsmbsams Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Them there sabots are French -'nough said
  • ahanksterahankster Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mb,[:o)]
    Your fixated on sabots, twinkies and the french.

    I think you been using you bore butter for tooooo many "alternate" uses. Gotta stop that, already affecting your thinking and eventually, you'll go blind.

    Hank
  • HandgunHTR52HandgunHTR52 Member Posts: 2,735
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ussarizona


    Also another question that nags me. Remember 'Quigley Down Under'? He loaded cartridges into that Sharps. Were they center fire? If so, what did the hammer strike since it was mounted on the side of the gun? I read on the internet about paper cartridges and how the block cuts the paper to expose the charge, then the percussion cap ignites it, but how does the brass cartridge accomplish that? Is that a 'trap door' cartridge? Are the cases re-useable? Is there a little hinge on the cartridge? I know....dopey little questions, but I'm having trouble finding the answers. Thanks for your help.

    Ron


    Ron - The rifle that Quigley used in the movie was a Sharps rifle, a "breach loader". It did use a BP cartridge in a brass case. Here is the description that he gave in the movie:

    "It's a lever-action breech loader. Usual barrel length is 30 inches. The one has an extra four. It's converted to use a special .45-caliber, 110-grain metal cartridge with a 540-grain paper-patch bullet. Fitted with double set triggers and a Vernier sight. Marked up to 1,200 yards. This one shoots a mite farther..."

    So it was a 45-110 cartridge.

    As for the question about the sidelock. It did have a side hammer, however it was twisted a little so that it falls on a transfer bar that pushes the firing pin.

    Here is a website with a pretty good description of it.

    http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(2l5t3i45ws0ppe55luwedp55))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=79&styleId=273&partNum=AAC-230
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Handgun..I'm glad to know how that side lock hammer works.
  • REX6666REX6666 Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i am glad i tuned you guys in, i am in the process of puting a
    t/c hawkin 50 cal. into service. From all the adds i have seen,
    i would have been first in line at the Pb counter, now i have my wonders, does any one have any other suggestions.
  • dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by REX6666
    i am glad i tuned you guys in, i am in the process of puting a
    t/c hawkin 50 cal. into service. From all the adds i have seen,
    i would have been first in line at the Pb counter, now i have my wonders, does any one have any other suggestions.


    The Thompson Center Hawken is a fine shooting rifle. I have fired a 3 shot group at 50 meters, and have had all three touching. That was with open sights, using a round ball and patch.
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