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starter GUN???

bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
edited September 2007 in Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting
Ive been shooting since i was 10 years old. Reloading for about three years. I want to get started in black powder "rifles". Ive been told that black powder is dirty and requirs alot of cleaning. and one guy was telling me that if i get a gun i have to "COOK" the barrel in the stove for 15min or so.
My thing is i, want to get a gun 50 cal from Midway. NEF sidekick. I know its the cheapest but just till i get the hang of the whole system, then maybe a better more reliable one.
Any advice is wanted!!!
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Comments

  • Mort4570Mort4570 Member Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bp is actually easy to clean up.water,soapy water,409,windex,there are a zillion ways.
    BUT..
    you must do it after EVERY time you shoot it,especially with real bp.It draws moisture,and will rust a barrel VERY fast.
    They sure are a hoot to shoot tho.
    shooting them accuartely is a lot of trial and error for the 'sweet spot load' of just the right kind and amount of powder,right thickness of patch,etc.
    but heck, it must mean ya get to shoot it alot while you learnd.:)
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  • rja72rja72 Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What are you wanting to do with the gun? Hunt or target?

    I have a Cabela's Hawken 50 cal percusion I going to deer hunt with this year. It is more expensive than the NEF you are looking at or other entry level in-lines. I did not want an in-line. I wanted something more traditional.

    If you decide to go more traditional, but don't want to pay the $300 - $600 to get a new rifle, you might check on gunbroker for a used rifle. i picked up a CVA Hunter Hawken for $119.00 (that was for gun and shipping). Barrel was far from perfect, but with a little tlc it did not look bad. I have not shot it yet, but I'm sure it will pattern fine.

    I use real BP and clean up is easy. just takes a little time.
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have an Italian made Hawken that I bought used off GunBroker. The bore was in terrible shape, but I think it is cleaning up OK. I think that is a good place to start with muzzle loaders, though I actually started with an Omega 50 that I will still use for hunting deer.
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  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've been shooting black powder for at least thirty years, and this is my first time to hear of "cooking" the barrel before using it. I think your aquaintance is full of something nastier than black powder..
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  • bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    yeh i think hes a little beers short of a six pack.
    i really want the rifle for punching holes in paper for now. then later (with more experiance) get a better gun. any one had any probs with NEF?? or should i go with another brand??
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  • rja72rja72 Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Cooking must refer to "seasoning" the barrel. I have heard of it but don't think you have to do it.

    I would check Fadala's black powder book for you, but I am in the process of moving and it is packed up.
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  • rja72rja72 Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you are punching holes in paper, the cheapest way to do that is with a patched round ball. I don't have enough experience to tell you a PRB will not shoot well out of a fast twist barrel designed for sabots, which is what the NEF has.

    What type of round (PBR, Conical, or sabot) do you want to put down range?
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  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    punisher, do it with whatever you have. If you get hooked as I did, you can go on to other things later, and there are lots of friends here who can help as you go, including me. Also you might check out the "Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting" forum here at GB. The regulars there know what they're talking about, I promise..
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  • bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ok so when i do get one. do i know what it can shoot? meaning round ball or sabots???
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    A muzzle loader with slow twist is for round ball. One with fast twist is for sabots (but it will work for round ball but is a bit unpredictable).

    First BP gun? Go with slow twist and round ball.
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  • bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    so there is traditional and modern right
    modern have 1/28 twist(fast)
    traditional 1/48 twist(slow)
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  • rja72rja72 Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    1 in 48" is middle. will shoot conical and round ball
    1 in 66" is slow. round ball only
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  • bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    so for me who likes go out and shoot bottles at 50 -100 yds what is best
    fast
    slow
    middle
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    For plinking ... and please do not shoot GLASS bottles, but I'd say go with the slow twist and with patched round ball.
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  • bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    so then i would be getting a traditional or is there a modern gun with slow twist?
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, go traditional ... I could be wrong, but I think most all of the modern (read in-lines) are fast twist. Have fun!
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  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    buy the cabelas traditional hawken kits. worth every penny and if you decide you dont like BP. you will have somthing worth selling.

    NEF are cheap guns there is not much $$$ in the resale of them.
    the ones you do see for sale. are people like yourself that wanted to get into BP but not spend the money and realized after the first shot they where hooked. instantly they want a better gun. buy the gun now and you will be money ahead in the end one way or the other.

    Hawkins hold there value and are great shooters to boot. i would suggest this one. i shoot both PRB and conicals out of mine. perfer the conicals only because i don't like dealing with the path.

    http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat601141&id=0006567210046a&navCount=4&podId=0006567&parentId=cat601141&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IH&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601141&hasJS=true
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  • rja72rja72 Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I saw a couple used Hawkens on the auction. Both were under $200.00.
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  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rja72
    I saw a couple used Hawkens on the auction. Both were under $200.00.

    +1
    i also saw several Thompson Center Hawkens Rifles almost any of them would be better than a New NEF [xx(]
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got my used Italian-made Hawken (even in left-handed version) for $180 on GunBroker. I think that is the way to go.
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  • bk_punisherbk_punisher Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ive looked at the hawken and ive seen two triggers and a side hammer. Im guessin it doent use a 209 primer. Is cleaning and loading for starters?
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  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bk_punisher
    Ive looked at the hawken and ive seen two triggers and a side hammer. Im guessin it doent use a 209 primer. Is cleaning and loading for starters?


    correct the hawken rifle is a traditional MZ. which at this time (at least to my knowledge) doesn't use 209 primers. It will more than likly use a #11 cap. You may be able to use a musketcap which is bigger in dia. and slightly hotter than a #11 but not as hot as a 209. All good question to ask the person you are buying the rifle from.

    BP is very corrosive the newer 777 and pyrodex not as corrosive but still corrosive. Soapy Water, A Brush and Patches, Denatured Alcohol and some bore butter and your set. As far as Cleaning a BP rifle isn't much diffent than a normal rifle that uses smokeless powder. BUT you have to clean a BP rifle as soon as possible after shooting not like the bolt gun that you can throw back into the safe and clean it when you remember.

    Loading for the first time seems a bit akwared but after the second or third shoot you'll get the hang of it.
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The 209 shotgun primers are only used on the modern in-line muzzle loaders. And, yes, in-lines are the easiest to clean.

    I still say that you would be wise to go with a more traditional Muzzle loader to start with (I wish someone had told me that before I got my first Muzzle loader which was an in-line.). The Hawken with percussion cap is the middle of the road type of Muzzle loader. Flint lock is just a bit more hassle than you might want to start with. But keep in mind, that muzzle loader shooting is a tinkerers sport.

    And I prefer the Black Powder substitutes because the clean up is not such a big hassle. Again the Black Powder mess in more than you might want for starters.
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  • reindeerreindeer Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Find someone who shoots b/p rifle. Go with that person. Do it with that person. Don't go piecemeal on the equipment. Find the regular gun club near you and post an ad in their flyer that you want to buy everything from someone who wants to give it up. Get a lead melter, bullet molds, lead, lube, the little red pre-load tubes, lubrisizer, powder, rifle, case percussion caps, and you are ready to go. There are a lot of people who don't have the time for b/p. I love to do it once in a while and at our club's regulare open houses. You must find someone to take you through it. Don't give up.
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  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Great advice from "reindeer" ... and my experience is that in the muzzle loader crowd you will find any number of people who would be VERY PLEASED to show you how to go about it. And pass along all their safety and clean up tips, too. And they might even give you some stuff to get you started out right. They will also know about the local laws and they may even know of people who have muzzle loaders and equipment for sale! It's a great sport ... and it is certainly a tinkerer's sport!
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