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On the subject of the scenario that started the thread. One simple thing comes to mind, they do that and the gloves come off. Rules of engagment no longer exist. I was born free and I plan on dying free. If somebody acting on behalf of an overpowering government wants to help send me on my way, so be it as long as I get to take atleast on of them with me.
KNOCK KNOCK!
YEA, CAN I HELP YOU?
WE'RE HERE TO REMOVE YOUR FIREARMS.
O.K., THEY ARE IN THE BEDROOM.
OH, BY THE WAY-DO ANY OF YOU MOFOS KNOW HOW TO DISARM
A HOMEMADE NUKE?
I seriously doubt that this type of situation would occur overnight. There are steps to be taken first and I am sure that ample warning will be given.
I cannot see every state enforcing this equally under federal mandate, and the feds do not have the manpower to enforce it by themselves. There are local LEO's with consciences that are not mindless automatons. The wild west will remain the wild west.
I am sure before this happens we will all have our opportunity to bury our registered weapons in the backyard and remodel our closets to hide the rest.
Those of the "chicken little" bent can run off and join the militia and eat MRE's in the national parks or their fishing camps or wherever.
With the sheer number of NRA members (not including those of like mind who wont rejoin the NRA for political reasons) including those in goverment and law enforcement...whatever president was idiotic enough to allow it to happen would be voted out of office long before the court challenges had even been completely heard.
Gun owners are a minority...but a vocal voting minority. Anyone have any memories of the last election??? I just dont think it is gonna happen brother...if it does we will all have plenty of warning.
No... if you are doing something stupid like advocating overthrow of the goverment or playing militiaman or practicing civil unrest with fake tax returns or numerous other stupid techniques not to be discussed here. Well sometimes you will get what you ask for.
No one is going to be knocking on the door of Joe Law-abiding Homeowner in the immediate future and asking for his guns.
My unvarnished opinion. swede
Anyone who thinks we won't see gun confiscation in our lifetime is severely disillusioned. Look at California-- they're not doing it all at once; they started in 1979 with a handgun registry, in 1989 with just a list of assault weapons, and ten years later they had a "features" ban and hi-cap mag ban, and as the result of a state supreme court case, the amnesty provision for late registration of the '89 weapons was canceled and anyone who registered named weapons after the deadline in 1991 had to turn in the weapon. In the future perhaps they will add a provision to classify any semi-auto as an assault weapon, whereas now it's only the features ones and almost any semi-auto with over a 10 round fixed mag. They have a handgun registry so if you are convicted of a midemeanor or felony they could theoretically come to your door and confiscate all of your handguns and any long guns that they see. If they have a search warrant for some minor case and they notice the contraband AR-15/M4 with 11" barrel (your "just in case society goes to *" weapon) in your otherwise legal collection, say hello to state prison and a lifetime ban on gun possession. Furthermore, if you use a gun in self-defense in L.A. the police will take it "for evidence" and just forget to give it back to you. Cities provide for the destruction of guns in evidence after a certain period, good luck getting it back!
Dianne Feinstein wants to add any firearm that was produced for any branch of any military in the world to the National Firearms Act. She wants to outlaw .50 cal rifles. She wants to end gun ownership. Be thankful that this senator has not had her way completely.
Since California has a handgun registry, that would be the first place they'd look if they came after me. I would rather lose a couple of handguns than long guns anyway. And no, I don't plan on taking a few of them with me if they confiscate handguns, as I would have to go into hiding after that and I'm not prepared to do that yet. If long guns were outlawed that's a much different story for me-- they'll never find the ones that I don't want them to find, and I would rather fight them than go to prison for having guns. Fortunately, there's no state registry for long guns but the form 4473's would lead the enforcers right to me (see Red Dawn) if the dealer still planned to comply with the regs.
You can forget about army troops walking through the streets; when the handgun confiscation comes in my state it will be local law enforcement SWAT teams that first try to enter when no one's home, steal all the guns they find, and then get out before I return. If they get the drop on you there's really nothing you can do except give them the guns they know you have. If you're prepared, you can at least use your registered AR-15 (or your Mini-14 if they've already confiscated your registered AR) with SS109 rounds to take a few of them with you, but be prepared to-- as in Heat -- walk out of your life as you know it in 30 seconds flat. I haven't lived long enough to be able to risk my life just yet, but it will be even more of a difficult choice if I'm ever married or with children. And of course the government knows this. Does Dianne Feinstein really give a * if enforcers lose their lives implementing her dictum? Only because she loses their votes. It's by no means time to give up, but the future is not a bright one. Let's not sugarcoat it for god's sake.
Bullzeye, I own both a Mak-90 and a Sar-2,,I enjoy shooting them both, and I haver never,,not once, had either one of them fail to shoot, It was not my intentions to downgrade these weapons, in my post,,the point I was trying to get across is close encounters,,good chance you going to die,,,far aware encounters,,,better chance to not die
"No dear, this isn't a new gun,,I've had this one for quite a long time,,honest,,"
"We would see the multitude oppressed from within as a consequence of the very precautions it had taken against what menaced it from without. We would see oppression continually increase, without the oppressed ever being able to know where it would end or what legitimate means would be left for them to stop it. We would see the rights of citizens and national liberties gradually die out, and the protests of the weak treated like seditious murmurs. We would see politics restrict the honor of defending the common cause to a mercenary portion of the people. We would see arising from this the necessity for taxes, the discouraged farmer leaving his field, even during peacetime, and leaving his plow in order to gird himself with a sword. We would see the rise of fatal and bizarre rules in the code of honor. We would see the defenders of the homeland sooner or later become its enemies, constantly holding a dagger over their fellow citizens."
Rousseau, Jean-Jacques. Discourse on the Origin of Inequality.
Trans. Donald A. Cress. Indianapolis:
Hackett Publishing Company, 1987.
If this sort of thing ever really happens I hope to God you resist politically instead of physically. It doesn't matter how good of a shot you are when a Special Forces guy that swooped in on a Black Hawk puts two in your chest and one in your head. You'll be dead, and guns will still be confiscated. If you all get killed like idiots, none will be left to try to get the right to bear arms back. Ever think of that? You won't win with brute force. It doesn't matter how often you play army in the woods, I guarantee their is no little private militia group that can take on Delta Force, or the Rangers, or the seals. These are guys that loss less then 100 people against what, 20,000 armed Samalians in Urban combat? It isn't like Vietnam anymore. In Vietnam, like 7mm said, one of the main reasons we lost is rules of engagement. Its not like that anymore, we have smart bombs. We can take out that building next to the church now.
Well gentlemen, Im quite impressed with the reponse thus far.
Being an avid shooter an collector of all weapons per say.
A few have raised questions and inspirations.
For one to think that such a objective would be well publisized isnt living in the world that most of us do. Futhermore to beleive that you would have fair warning of such a plan.
For when the time comes. Let me repeat this statement"when the time comes" the only clue you will have is the knock on the door, guaranteed.
My hat is off to those geezers and generations after who can see what has taken place thus far and may be able to envision the topic at hand.
Beachmaster said the magic words... teach the youth and mentor as to protect what our forefathers have fought so bravely for.
S&W man. You made some very good statements. but the populace wont recognize the threat when weapons are baned one at a a time.
Sixstringer...your way of thinking is admirable but the politians need to protect their job likewise.
ADFREE. I think you are very wrong saying you will have fore warning.
The gun owners will be the enemy and do you beleive that the opposition is going to warn their adversary of their agenda?
Im sorry to break he news to you , but that siply wont happen. PERIOD
Bullzeye... get back on the porch and observe what transpires amongst adults.
EVIL ATF..when and if the agenda of the gun hunters was made public, I do think that the miltia would be a thorn to the powers to be. But simply no match for the army thats mission is to take what you take for a way of life.
Im a gun enthusiast and train with family on urban warfare. But have to concede that we will be no match to the oppression.
Alpine.. you must be young or out of touch with reality.
please read your post and rethink your thoughts.
robsguns..SSgt Ryan E Roberts USMC You made some valid statements but Im still unclear as to if you were given the order to seize weapons fron US civilians. Would you comply with the order?
7MM nut..you sound brave and one to be respected but are you thinking about your family also? If worse came to worse? Your gun is a tool.. correct ? I would hope to see a different response from an indivdual as yourself.
salzo..I agree that the war in which you metion was a politaical game and not one of which the vast general populace knows much about. But politians need a jod too.
Imadork..
I dont hink your a dork at all for the post you made makes some sense..
Im looking for nunns,dano,beekeeper,whiteclouder's response to the above mentioned.
Find cover because theres a black cloud over head.
Some may not like you, get over it or get use to it.
"ADFREE. I think you are very wrong saying you will have fore warning.
The gun owners will be the enemy and do you beleive that the opposition is going to warn their adversary of their agenda?
Im sorry to break he news to you , but that siply wont happen. PERIOD"
There would have to be forewarning. There is no way that we would not get wind of what was happening. Unless there is a force of several million, who are VERY well organized, that I have never heard of we will learn of what is happening after they get the first few dozen of us.
SixStringer, I recommend that you get a better understanding of the law before you condemn others.
"If this sort of thing ever really happens I hope to God you resist politically instead of physically. It doesn't matter how good of a shot you are when a Special Forces guy that swooped in on a Black Hawk puts two in your chest and one in your head. You'll be dead, and guns will still be confiscated. If you all get killed like idiots, none will be left to try to get the right to bear arms back. Ever think of that? You won't win with brute force. It doesn't matter how often you play army in the woods, I guarantee their is no little private militia group that can take on Delta Force, or the Rangers, or the seals. These are guys that loss less then 100 people against what, 20,000 armed Samalians in Urban combat? It isn't like Vietnam anymore. In Vietnam, like 7mm said, one of the main reasons we lost is rules of engagement. Its not like that anymore, we have smart bombs. We can take out that building next to the church now."
That would be illegal. If the US troops did that, which I doubt they would, they would deserve anything they got. Knowing several people who have served, and some who still do, I know that the majority of them would not kill fellow Americans for having firearms. Would you?
AdfreeDont be nieve to think that you will here about the movement on the media> It will be a swift exercise well practiced by our own military and swat units.
I dont want to see the day come and maybe wont.. but that isnt the question that I asked? is it.
The goverment has a apaper trail that leads to you and you are the mark. the target so to speak.
Beachmaster had the right answer. School and mentor the youth in the direction you wish they will follow.
Joe liberal gun grabbing * is here to take youe 2nd ammend> and rights away along with your guns. Whether its one at a time or your whole collection.
black
Find cover because theres a black cloud over head.
Some may not like you, get over it or get use to it.
blackclouder,
That is a definite NO. That is what I meant when I said 'I dont care what anyone tells me to do, I will not fire a weapon against the citizens I protect, not for anyone.' I dont believe guns will be taken without gun fire, and I'm not willing to shoot Americans. If I wanted to shoot Americans I'd be a law enforcement officer.
"EVIL ATF..when and if the agenda of the gun hunters was made public, I do think that the miltia would be a thorn to the powers to be. But simply no match for the army thats mission is to take what you take for a way of life. Im a gun enthusiast and train with family on urban warfare. But have to concede that we will be no match to the oppression."
Well sir, I'll just say that it's obvious that you do not belong to your local militia. Anyone who has trained with one of the 50 official state militias would realize that we'd be a little more than just a thorn in the side of the powers that be.
Swede:
"I am sure before this happens we will all have our opportunity to bury our registered weapons in the backyard and remodel our closets to hide the rest. Those of the "chicken little" bent can run off and join the militia and eat MRE's in the national parks or their fishing camps or wherever."
Go ahead and bury your stuff, Swede. Don't let it weigh on your pride that other men will be fighting to get them back above ground for you. "Chicken Little" or the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" has nothing to do with it. You can fire off as many smartassed comments as you like, but anyone who's been paying attention in the last decade can see that the sky is indeed falling. There are those who see it coming and are preparing and there are those who will be at the mercy of the powers that be...assuming said person ever pulls their head out of the sand.
Bury all my gear and hope that it is declared "legal" again someday?
No thank you. I'll take my chances against Six String's ferocious smart bombs that will never be deployed. Maybe just one of his Supermen in the Rangers will be deployed instead and destroy the entire west coast with nothing but his utter badassness...
So what Evil ATF, the Gov is just gonna let a bunch of * who play war on weekends kick their *, and they wont fight back? Get a reality check. Ohh nooo.. Evil ATF and his friend play guns un the woods! Whatever will we do!?!?!
If it did come to that, the whole US force wouldnt be in the picture. The only ones who would, would be the ones that are willing to obey a unlawfull order, 40% tops. Of those, how many REMF and how many combat? Those Blackhawks you worry about need fuel and repair. The tanks break to, and canned fruits need to come out once in a while. Remember, there are a whole lot of vets, including SF out here. More out have seen combat than those in I would wager. You want to knock on a ex force recon's door with a gun and a attitude? I dont think you would get far.
As for me, I figure Id get one or two, but theres a lot more of us than there would be of them. Course then the wife is probably good for one herself.
Those people who see nothing but grey areas, no black and white, are lost in the fog.
1st they have to know I have a gun.
2nd they have to know where I live
3rd our country has to be ignorant enough to allow this to happen
4th I become one of the million wanted for breaking the law.
5th I die of sadness know ing we could have made a difference and did
not.
An underground poll was taken at Ft. Bragg by some concerned soldiers. Over 90% polled stated that, if they were ordered to participate in a confiscation scheme, they would walk. I don't see our military as a threat to our RTKBA.
I asked the question today at work, while just 5 people were in the office, they could have been anybody, I didnt pick the 5, get the picture? It was not just a no, but a hell no, from all. As is being said, dont look for the military to help out with the gun confiscation. I also voiced my opinion about swearing to defend the constitution as it stands now, not an amended version, total agreement from all. Two stated what I did, if the amendment was to go through, and guns were to be taken, we'd walk before arming ourselves for that mission. Others stated, they'd just go knock door to door, say hi, ask how are you are doing, and carry on in that fashion, from door to door. So, I'm thinking you're out of touch SixStringer, I thought so before, but I had to ask today just to be sure. Oh by the way, these are staff NCOs I'm speaking of, the ones who lead, think about it.
Not being one myself, but having trained with special forces, I know a lot of them have their own plans for the big day. They know where the really good weapons are at, where and when to use them.
I love freedom, cause a chained dog ain't happy. A southern born child living behind enemy lines in occupied territory
...and I have seen a few Canadians post on this board, and they luuuuuv their countries gun control laws. If gun owners in Canada cant see the absurdity of their countries gun control laws, one cant help but think Canadians get what they deserve
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
(oh yeah, wasnt there an armed militia and professional army in this country that beat a power that was better armed and better trained than the locals)
Six stringer.....Your casual dismissal of Evil ATF's thoughts bear comment. First some of those pot-bellied bubba's you so casually dismiss have already walked the walk that many of the fire eating young Special Forces types of today want to walk. Those bubbas may have lost a step or two or even three but the value of their experiences in combat gives them an edge that many younger combatants don't yet have. Men with combat experience rarely underestimate the ability of their enemy. Young warriors especially those pumped up on their own eliteness frequently do. You mentioned the shooting experiences of Evil and pooh-poohed them. He is a graduate of the shooting school at Gunsite. I wouldn't casually dismiss someone who got through that training. Every SEAL platoon has at least six or seven shooters who have been through that school. Said another way that means 13 or 14 in each platoon haven't.
Finally you mentioned Somalia yes the SEALS, Delta and the rangers lost 18 killed and they killed probably between 800-900 Somalis that day. There is a BIG BIG difference between a bunch of untrained quat chewing Somalis and some middle aged American combat veterans. You didn't mention whether you had been in Somalia, I was. The weapons we took off the Somali's can generously be described as crap. The best of the lot were rusted out barely functional AK's, some Italian bolt actions, a few Enfields, some RPGs, and some home-made STEN guns. My heart was broken when I saw a Thompson that had been cut down and was completely rusted out. The rest of their weaponry went down from there. Now yes a crapped out Carcano can kill you. You seem to equate a psychotic untrained Somali with an Enfield that hasn't been cleaned in the last 40 years to an old slow American veteran with an immaculate scoped match M1A or AR-15 or maybe some elderly WWII or Korean Vet with a scoped M1. That kind of comparison isn't even close. I think it entirely probable that if those American Special Forces in Somali who went after Ahdeed had run into 5000 middle aged(VIETNAM) or elderly(WWII or KOREA) American veterans well equipped with the weaponry permitted by the Second Amendment there would have been many many more body bags filled than the 18 heros who did die that day.
Sixstringer...I appreciate your arguments in favor of following the precepts of the Constitution although you seem unaware of the Posse Comatatus. The regular military of the United States is specifically prohibited from participating in domestic police affairs. And I really don't see National Guard troops kicking down the doors of their neighbors and friends.
Finally I'd bet my paycheck that in a fire fight after his Gunsite training Evil would get at least one shooter before he went down. Beach
Sixstringer, IF the flag ever goes up, there are 4.x million members of the NRA, and at least 60 million gun-owning households in the US, many of whom are also LEOs, serving or retired military. Versus what? ATF? FBI? A small percentage of the military forces? The most effective counterattack will not be to run out guns a-blazin, although some will do so. I never served, but I *can* make at least three different high explosives by walking into the corner Wal-mart & buying some common household chemicals. Tanks in the streets? Ever seen / heard of military "Improvised Munitions" manuals? "The Anarchist's Cookbook"? Better have plenty of infantry with that armor! Seem to recall some news stories from Afghanistan about snipers causing problems around the air bases where there are no buildings nor vegetative cover to hide them. Only takes one shot. You don't hang around to take the return fire. Those gray-haired guys with beer guts can still put a round in the X-ring at several hundred meters. And sabotage, as at least one other poster noted, would be a real & constant problem.
What would happen here? I've told this story before, but in case you missed it . . . . In the 60s or early 70s, the Special Forces ran an exercise in northern NJ - not an area exactly saturated with folks who think like Evil. They had some sort of announcement that anyone who had a military caliber firearm (incl. 12 gauge) who wanted to participate as an 'indigenous guerilla' could come on down and play the role of a local to be recruited and led by the SF groups against Regular Army troops playing the role of an occupying or hostile power. I have a LEO buddy who took part. The brass fully expected they would see only a few people, armed largely with archaic weapons. What they got was a mass of people, many of them combat veterans, armed to the teeth with anything from semi-automatics to "destructive devices." Not a flintlock in the crowd (they had seriously expected some BP firearms). What was supposed to be a small unit insurgency was more on the order of a human wave attack which simply overwhelmed the opposing force.
History is replete with the miseries inflicted on an occupier by small numbers of comparatively ill-trained & poorly armed foes. The Balkan & Russian partisans in WW2, the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto, to name only a few. The Nazis didn't have smart technology, but they did have numerical superiority. If the flag goes up, the forces of oppression will be facing a much better armed and trained resistance. It isn't going to happen - or if it does, we'll be shooting at blue helmets rather than red coats.
Some one mentioned Canada. What's the compliance rate for their newest boondoggle? Something like 25%?
Etc. Enough. Bottom line, to even come close to such a time, it would have to be a gradual erosion without the political opposition. I don't see that happening if we work to prevent it in society (ala Beach) and politics (you). Any overt large scale attempt would be met with so much resistance that the govt grabbers would be not an endangered, but extinct, species in fairly short order.
The shiny new Ford station wagon, turn signal dutifully warning no one, pulls off the main highway and bumps uncomfortably up the winding dirt road. The neat farmhouse appears suddenly, taking the four occupants in the shiny gray car by surprise. The man they are looking for stands beside his 86 Ford four by four. The hood is up and there is a case of Quaker State on the ground beside him. As the wagon comes to a stop, the man by the truck wipes his hands on a grease rag, the motion exposing slightly sagging muscles on his upper arms. A faded tattoo on his right arm says TARAWA. The four men climb out of the air-conditioned car and approach the truck. Standing closer, they can see the man looks to be in his late sixties. His clear steel-gray eyes look neither friendly nor aggressive, they simply scan each man quickly and then settle on the driver. As they watch, another man slides out from under the truck. He is a forty-five-year-old copy of the first man. His eyes are definitely not friendly.
"What can I do for you, neighbor?" asks the older man.
The driver of the station wagon takes a PDA out of his jacket pocket and flips it open. With his stylus he clicks on the tiny screen a few times and then says, "Are you Mr. Amvett?"
"I'm one of them," replied the older man.
"I'm another. Who wants to know?" injected the younger. He folded his arms over his broad chest, the SEMPER FI on his bulging biceps pulsed with agitation.
WWII vet,
You have just made me smile, because I can fully understand that you are exactly like me. If I were your age I would not even have a need to argue with anyone about what would happen if they come. I suppose that would be someting SixStringer needs to learn and identify with.
Presuming it happens to some one like me, who happens to be like you, getting to the point in life where you know exactly how you are going to live out the rest of your life, and comfortable with the fact that you only have just so long left on this earth, you know exactly what will happen. I would tell someone the exact same thing that you did, if they come 'I will die', because for me anyway, without my freedom, and without what I enjoy, my guns, there really is nothing else for me, they are all I love to do. I cant say for sure I would die if I had family, but if I were alone, yes, I'd die. I couldnt do it now, with little children to raise, but at your age, it would be a certainty. Thats one thing I look forward to with getting old, the ability to look someone in the face and say, 'so what, go for it, I've lived my life, are you prepared to die?, I am.' Take notice SixStringer, this is what you can not fight, its nearly comparable to the suicide bombers of late. When you have a cause to fight for, and nothing seems more important, you are an extremely dangerous person, against ANY force.
This too, SixStringer, is why I will not raise a weapon against an American. What if it were WWII Vet that I was told to take the guns from? Picture me, or any other Marine, shooting an old man who fought and now died for his country, twice. The first time he fought and survived, the second he died. Now as I look down on his body, thinking how he reminds me so much of my grandfather, a Marine tatoo on his arm, no longer breathing, because I followed orders. I have killed a man who preceded me in service, the men that I have read about that made the Marines famous at the Battle of Belleauwoods. A man who may have fought side by side with my grandfather. A man who may have saved my great uncles life by dragging him to cover off the beach of Normandy. I have killed a man that fought for my freedom, that gave my parents their freedom, a man that would fight for what I believe in, but I did not have the moral courage to do the same. I would have to live with that for the rest of my life. No, I dont think I'll be doing that. That would be my reply to the officer that issued such an order, 'No Sir, I will not.'
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
I agree with previous post that the youth of today are the leaders of tomorrow. Without education on why the constitution was written the way it was, and on firearms, in the LONG run we do not have a chance. Since young people are constantly being told guns are bad. The youth of today are growing up, not knowing the freedoms they have already lost. They do not miss them because they never had them.As the old geezers pass on, the percentage of anti vs. pro gun is changing for the worse. Granted there are some youth programs out there, which are great, but there are not enough kids involved. There are alot more kids that will never have the chance of learning about firearms.As for warning signs; How many of you "old geezers" remember when it was almost mandatory to TAKE your rifle to school? Now it is prison time if you are caught within a certain distance from a school and have one in your truck.There is a war is being waged on owners of firearms. Wars are won, one battle at a time. For each new "LAW?" that has been passed restricting firearms in any way, we have lost another battle. Today if you live here you can not have this, or if you live there you can not have that. It did not USED to be this way. For those who do not see the warning signs, wake up, take the blinders off, it is and has been happening NOW. They may not come today or tomorrow to take your guns, but looking at the long run, it will happen. As far as who will take them, sadly the civil war showed us that brother CAN and WILL fight against brother. Still IMO it is more important to keep the U.N. out of the U.S.No offense blackclouder but it might happen sooner than you think and some of us "old geezers" might be affected.As far as what I will do when it happens, if I am still here, we will just have to wait and see.
Beach--I COMPLETELY forgot about the Posse Comatatus. I had to walk that thin line for 18 months while I was at Ft. Drum. In spite of what some may think, our boys kicked some major * in Somalia and this nation better be proud of the *-kicking men (and women) that we have in our armed forces today. Don't worry, there are more than a few in our armed forces that would walk (and take their M-16 with them) if they were ever told to enforce some confiscation scheme.
Speaking as one of those who was accused of having my head in various places....If you do your part in the political process, write your congressman, vote regularly, and educate those young people that you have contact with....Guess what...this scenario will not come to pass.
The court system in this country is not perfect, but we can use it as well as the anti-gunners. Did anyone catch how Ashcroft just made the second amendment and personal weapon rights part of the official position of the united states goverment???
As to the militia...there are good and bad in every side of every issue. Evil...you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have nothing but contempt for wanna-bes sitting around targeting LEO's and members of any particular system that they disagree with. If they put as much effort into the political side of the militia movement...I might have more respect for them. Then we will see who the real men are..and who will be counted. I do respect your views on the militia movement even though mine differ in the area of application.
Start a militia party...broadcast your views from the rooftops...mobilize your voters...hey ...the system still works...remember last election!!!! swede
I think this is a case of "speak for yourself." No disrespect, sir, but my friends and associates would take a different view. You live with whatever you[\b] decide to do.
Swede:
We are very involved in state and Federal politics.
We (the Pacific Northwest Militia Coalition) are constantly coordinating events to raise sheeple awareness and roll the clock back on many 2nd Amendment and tax issues.
I post our latest endeavors on the Net each week. Of all the boards that I frequent, GunBroker's forum is the only one that I do not post this information on, as the climate here is not exactly militia friendly.
If you're interested in some of the projects we have going, I suggest you keep and eye on the General Discussion forum of www.awrm.org.
"I have nothing but contempt for wanna-bes sitting around targeting LEO's and members of any particular system that they disagree with."
I wholeheartedly agree. If you spend some time on the AWRM board either lurking or posting, I believe you'll find that your views on the militia movement are inaccurate. Anyone there would be happy to answer any questions you may have, or just fire off a thread with either "Evil ATF" or "Militia" in the title and I'll be sure to jump in. :-)
The only way they will get my guns are if Im not at home and they bring a forklift with them.Ill still have one, the 45 that I carry.
sandman, if that should happen.How long would it take you to make a M60 or a 30 cal tripod and all. I migt be interested.
Thieves in 3 piece suits = Politicians,Doctors & Lawyers
Comments
YEA, CAN I HELP YOU?
WE'RE HERE TO REMOVE YOUR FIREARMS.
O.K., THEY ARE IN THE BEDROOM.
OH, BY THE WAY-DO ANY OF YOU MOFOS KNOW HOW TO DISARM
A HOMEMADE NUKE?
I cannot see every state enforcing this equally under federal mandate, and the feds do not have the manpower to enforce it by themselves. There are local LEO's with consciences that are not mindless automatons. The wild west will remain the wild west.
I am sure before this happens we will all have our opportunity to bury our registered weapons in the backyard and remodel our closets to hide the rest.
Those of the "chicken little" bent can run off and join the militia and eat MRE's in the national parks or their fishing camps or wherever.
With the sheer number of NRA members (not including those of like mind who wont rejoin the NRA for political reasons) including those in goverment and law enforcement...whatever president was idiotic enough to allow it to happen would be voted out of office long before the court challenges had even been completely heard.
Gun owners are a minority...but a vocal voting minority. Anyone have any memories of the last election??? I just dont think it is gonna happen brother...if it does we will all have plenty of warning.
No... if you are doing something stupid like advocating overthrow of the goverment or playing militiaman or practicing civil unrest with fake tax returns or numerous other stupid techniques not to be discussed here. Well sometimes you will get what you ask for.
No one is going to be knocking on the door of Joe Law-abiding Homeowner in the immediate future and asking for his guns.
My unvarnished opinion. swede
WyomingSwede
Dianne Feinstein wants to add any firearm that was produced for any branch of any military in the world to the National Firearms Act. She wants to outlaw .50 cal rifles. She wants to end gun ownership. Be thankful that this senator has not had her way completely.
Since California has a handgun registry, that would be the first place they'd look if they came after me. I would rather lose a couple of handguns than long guns anyway. And no, I don't plan on taking a few of them with me if they confiscate handguns, as I would have to go into hiding after that and I'm not prepared to do that yet. If long guns were outlawed that's a much different story for me-- they'll never find the ones that I don't want them to find, and I would rather fight them than go to prison for having guns. Fortunately, there's no state registry for long guns but the form 4473's would lead the enforcers right to me (see Red Dawn) if the dealer still planned to comply with the regs.
You can forget about army troops walking through the streets; when the handgun confiscation comes in my state it will be local law enforcement SWAT teams that first try to enter when no one's home, steal all the guns they find, and then get out before I return. If they get the drop on you there's really nothing you can do except give them the guns they know you have. If you're prepared, you can at least use your registered AR-15 (or your Mini-14 if they've already confiscated your registered AR) with SS109 rounds to take a few of them with you, but be prepared to-- as in Heat -- walk out of your life as you know it in 30 seconds flat. I haven't lived long enough to be able to risk my life just yet, but it will be even more of a difficult choice if I'm ever married or with children. And of course the government knows this. Does Dianne Feinstein really give a * if enforcers lose their lives implementing her dictum? Only because she loses their votes. It's by no means time to give up, but the future is not a bright one. Let's not sugarcoat it for god's sake.
"No dear, this isn't a new gun,,I've had this one for quite a long time,,honest,,"
"We would see the multitude oppressed from within as a consequence of the very precautions it had taken against what menaced it from without. We would see oppression continually increase, without the oppressed ever being able to know where it would end or what legitimate means would be left for them to stop it. We would see the rights of citizens and national liberties gradually die out, and the protests of the weak treated like seditious murmurs. We would see politics restrict the honor of defending the common cause to a mercenary portion of the people. We would see arising from this the necessity for taxes, the discouraged farmer leaving his field, even during peacetime, and leaving his plow in order to gird himself with a sword. We would see the rise of fatal and bizarre rules in the code of honor. We would see the defenders of the homeland sooner or later become its enemies, constantly holding a dagger over their fellow citizens."
Rousseau, Jean-Jacques. Discourse on the Origin of Inequality.
Trans. Donald A. Cress. Indianapolis:
Hackett Publishing Company, 1987.
Being an avid shooter an collector of all weapons per say.
A few have raised questions and inspirations.
For one to think that such a objective would be well publisized isnt living in the world that most of us do. Futhermore to beleive that you would have fair warning of such a plan.
For when the time comes. Let me repeat this statement"when the time comes" the only clue you will have is the knock on the door, guaranteed.
My hat is off to those geezers and generations after who can see what has taken place thus far and may be able to envision the topic at hand.
Beachmaster said the magic words... teach the youth and mentor as to protect what our forefathers have fought so bravely for.
S&W man. You made some very good statements. but the populace wont recognize the threat when weapons are baned one at a a time.
Sixstringer...your way of thinking is admirable but the politians need to protect their job likewise.
ADFREE. I think you are very wrong saying you will have fore warning.
The gun owners will be the enemy and do you beleive that the opposition is going to warn their adversary of their agenda?
Im sorry to break he news to you , but that siply wont happen. PERIOD
Bullzeye... get back on the porch and observe what transpires amongst adults.
EVIL ATF..when and if the agenda of the gun hunters was made public, I do think that the miltia would be a thorn to the powers to be. But simply no match for the army thats mission is to take what you take for a way of life.
Im a gun enthusiast and train with family on urban warfare. But have to concede that we will be no match to the oppression.
Alpine.. you must be young or out of touch with reality.
please read your post and rethink your thoughts.
robsguns..SSgt Ryan E Roberts USMC You made some valid statements but Im still unclear as to if you were given the order to seize weapons fron US civilians. Would you comply with the order?
7MM nut..you sound brave and one to be respected but are you thinking about your family also? If worse came to worse? Your gun is a tool.. correct ? I would hope to see a different response from an indivdual as yourself.
salzo..I agree that the war in which you metion was a politaical game and not one of which the vast general populace knows much about. But politians need a jod too.
Imadork..
I dont hink your a dork at all for the post you made makes some sense..
Im looking for nunns,dano,beekeeper,whiteclouder's response to the above mentioned.
Find cover because theres a black cloud over head.
Some may not like you, get over it or get use to it.
"ADFREE. I think you are very wrong saying you will have fore warning.
The gun owners will be the enemy and do you beleive that the opposition is going to warn their adversary of their agenda?
Im sorry to break he news to you , but that siply wont happen. PERIOD"
There would have to be forewarning. There is no way that we would not get wind of what was happening. Unless there is a force of several million, who are VERY well organized, that I have never heard of we will learn of what is happening after they get the first few dozen of us.
SixStringer, I recommend that you get a better understanding of the law before you condemn others.
"If this sort of thing ever really happens I hope to God you resist politically instead of physically. It doesn't matter how good of a shot you are when a Special Forces guy that swooped in on a Black Hawk puts two in your chest and one in your head. You'll be dead, and guns will still be confiscated. If you all get killed like idiots, none will be left to try to get the right to bear arms back. Ever think of that? You won't win with brute force. It doesn't matter how often you play army in the woods, I guarantee their is no little private militia group that can take on Delta Force, or the Rangers, or the seals. These are guys that loss less then 100 people against what, 20,000 armed Samalians in Urban combat? It isn't like Vietnam anymore. In Vietnam, like 7mm said, one of the main reasons we lost is rules of engagement. Its not like that anymore, we have smart bombs. We can take out that building next to the church now."
That would be illegal. If the US troops did that, which I doubt they would, they would deserve anything they got. Knowing several people who have served, and some who still do, I know that the majority of them would not kill fellow Americans for having firearms. Would you?
Edited by - adfree on 05/08/2002 05:38:24
I dont want to see the day come and maybe wont.. but that isnt the question that I asked? is it.
The goverment has a apaper trail that leads to you and you are the mark. the target so to speak.
Beachmaster had the right answer. School and mentor the youth in the direction you wish they will follow.
Joe liberal gun grabbing * is here to take youe 2nd ammend> and rights away along with your guns. Whether its one at a time or your whole collection.
black
Find cover because theres a black cloud over head.
Some may not like you, get over it or get use to it.
That is a definite NO. That is what I meant when I said 'I dont care what anyone tells me to do, I will not fire a weapon against the citizens I protect, not for anyone.' I dont believe guns will be taken without gun fire, and I'm not willing to shoot Americans. If I wanted to shoot Americans I'd be a law enforcement officer.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Well sir, I'll just say that it's obvious that you do not belong to your local militia. Anyone who has trained with one of the 50 official state militias would realize that we'd be a little more than just a thorn in the side of the powers that be.
Swede:
"I am sure before this happens we will all have our opportunity to bury our registered weapons in the backyard and remodel our closets to hide the rest. Those of the "chicken little" bent can run off and join the militia and eat MRE's in the national parks or their fishing camps or wherever."
Go ahead and bury your stuff, Swede. Don't let it weigh on your pride that other men will be fighting to get them back above ground for you. "Chicken Little" or the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" has nothing to do with it. You can fire off as many smartassed comments as you like, but anyone who's been paying attention in the last decade can see that the sky is indeed falling. There are those who see it coming and are preparing and there are those who will be at the mercy of the powers that be...assuming said person ever pulls their head out of the sand.
Bury all my gear and hope that it is declared "legal" again someday?
No thank you. I'll take my chances against Six String's ferocious smart bombs that will never be deployed. Maybe just one of his Supermen in the Rangers will be deployed instead and destroy the entire west coast with nothing but his utter badassness...
Stand And Be Counted
The Scenereo here is that when the police come knocking, evereyone comes out shooting. If it got bad enough, troops would come out.
I'm not afraid of the dark...the dark is afraid of me!
If it did come to that, the whole US force wouldnt be in the picture. The only ones who would, would be the ones that are willing to obey a unlawfull order, 40% tops. Of those, how many REMF and how many combat? Those Blackhawks you worry about need fuel and repair. The tanks break to, and canned fruits need to come out once in a while. Remember, there are a whole lot of vets, including SF out here. More out have seen combat than those in I would wager. You want to knock on a ex force recon's door with a gun and a attitude? I dont think you would get far.
As for me, I figure Id get one or two, but theres a lot more of us than there would be of them. Course then the wife is probably good for one herself.
Those people who see nothing but grey areas, no black and white, are lost in the fog.
2nd they have to know where I live
3rd our country has to be ignorant enough to allow this to happen
4th I become one of the million wanted for breaking the law.
5th I die of sadness know ing we could have made a difference and did
not.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 05/08/2002 18:33:02
I love freedom, cause a chained dog ain't happy. A southern born child living behind enemy lines in occupied territory
Canada.
Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
(oh yeah, wasnt there an armed militia and professional army in this country that beat a power that was better armed and better trained than the locals)
Happiness is a warm gun
Finally you mentioned Somalia yes the SEALS, Delta and the rangers lost 18 killed and they killed probably between 800-900 Somalis that day. There is a BIG BIG difference between a bunch of untrained quat chewing Somalis and some middle aged American combat veterans. You didn't mention whether you had been in Somalia, I was. The weapons we took off the Somali's can generously be described as crap. The best of the lot were rusted out barely functional AK's, some Italian bolt actions, a few Enfields, some RPGs, and some home-made STEN guns. My heart was broken when I saw a Thompson that had been cut down and was completely rusted out. The rest of their weaponry went down from there. Now yes a crapped out Carcano can kill you. You seem to equate a psychotic untrained Somali with an Enfield that hasn't been cleaned in the last 40 years to an old slow American veteran with an immaculate scoped match M1A or AR-15 or maybe some elderly WWII or Korean Vet with a scoped M1. That kind of comparison isn't even close. I think it entirely probable that if those American Special Forces in Somali who went after Ahdeed had run into 5000 middle aged(VIETNAM) or elderly(WWII or KOREA) American veterans well equipped with the weaponry permitted by the Second Amendment there would have been many many more body bags filled than the 18 heros who did die that day.
Sixstringer...I appreciate your arguments in favor of following the precepts of the Constitution although you seem unaware of the Posse Comatatus. The regular military of the United States is specifically prohibited from participating in domestic police affairs. And I really don't see National Guard troops kicking down the doors of their neighbors and friends.
Finally I'd bet my paycheck that in a fire fight after his Gunsite training Evil would get at least one shooter before he went down. Beach
....very good beach
Happiness is a warm gun
I will add this:
Beach, while I appreciate the vote of confidance, I'm sure I'm good for two, not one.
Don't forget the wife and Baby ATF. They're good for another one and a half between the two of 'em.
Stay free,
Evil
Stand And Be Counted
What would happen here? I've told this story before, but in case you missed it . . . . In the 60s or early 70s, the Special Forces ran an exercise in northern NJ - not an area exactly saturated with folks who think like Evil. They had some sort of announcement that anyone who had a military caliber firearm (incl. 12 gauge) who wanted to participate as an 'indigenous guerilla' could come on down and play the role of a local to be recruited and led by the SF groups against Regular Army troops playing the role of an occupying or hostile power. I have a LEO buddy who took part. The brass fully expected they would see only a few people, armed largely with archaic weapons. What they got was a mass of people, many of them combat veterans, armed to the teeth with anything from semi-automatics to "destructive devices." Not a flintlock in the crowd (they had seriously expected some BP firearms). What was supposed to be a small unit insurgency was more on the order of a human wave attack which simply overwhelmed the opposing force.
History is replete with the miseries inflicted on an occupier by small numbers of comparatively ill-trained & poorly armed foes. The Balkan & Russian partisans in WW2, the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto, to name only a few. The Nazis didn't have smart technology, but they did have numerical superiority. If the flag goes up, the forces of oppression will be facing a much better armed and trained resistance. It isn't going to happen - or if it does, we'll be shooting at blue helmets rather than red coats.
Some one mentioned Canada. What's the compliance rate for their newest boondoggle? Something like 25%?
Etc. Enough. Bottom line, to even come close to such a time, it would have to be a gradual erosion without the political opposition. I don't see that happening if we work to prevent it in society (ala Beach) and politics (you). Any overt large scale attempt would be met with so much resistance that the govt grabbers would be not an endangered, but extinct, species in fairly short order.
"What can I do for you, neighbor?" asks the older man.
The driver of the station wagon takes a PDA out of his jacket pocket and flips it open. With his stylus he clicks on the tiny screen a few times and then says, "Are you Mr. Amvett?"
"I'm one of them," replied the older man.
"I'm another. Who wants to know?" injected the younger. He folded his arms over his broad chest, the SEMPER FI on his bulging biceps pulsed with agitation.
"We're here to take your weapons."
And they all lived happily ever after.
Clouder..
Edited by - whiteclouder on 05/09/2002 10:55:02
Vet
You have just made me smile, because I can fully understand that you are exactly like me. If I were your age I would not even have a need to argue with anyone about what would happen if they come. I suppose that would be someting SixStringer needs to learn and identify with.
Presuming it happens to some one like me, who happens to be like you, getting to the point in life where you know exactly how you are going to live out the rest of your life, and comfortable with the fact that you only have just so long left on this earth, you know exactly what will happen. I would tell someone the exact same thing that you did, if they come 'I will die', because for me anyway, without my freedom, and without what I enjoy, my guns, there really is nothing else for me, they are all I love to do. I cant say for sure I would die if I had family, but if I were alone, yes, I'd die. I couldnt do it now, with little children to raise, but at your age, it would be a certainty. Thats one thing I look forward to with getting old, the ability to look someone in the face and say, 'so what, go for it, I've lived my life, are you prepared to die?, I am.' Take notice SixStringer, this is what you can not fight, its nearly comparable to the suicide bombers of late. When you have a cause to fight for, and nothing seems more important, you are an extremely dangerous person, against ANY force.
This too, SixStringer, is why I will not raise a weapon against an American. What if it were WWII Vet that I was told to take the guns from? Picture me, or any other Marine, shooting an old man who fought and now died for his country, twice. The first time he fought and survived, the second he died. Now as I look down on his body, thinking how he reminds me so much of my grandfather, a Marine tatoo on his arm, no longer breathing, because I followed orders. I have killed a man who preceded me in service, the men that I have read about that made the Marines famous at the Battle of Belleauwoods. A man who may have fought side by side with my grandfather. A man who may have saved my great uncles life by dragging him to cover off the beach of Normandy. I have killed a man that fought for my freedom, that gave my parents their freedom, a man that would fight for what I believe in, but I did not have the moral courage to do the same. I would have to live with that for the rest of my life. No, I dont think I'll be doing that. That would be my reply to the officer that issued such an order, 'No Sir, I will not.'
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 05/09/2002 13:11:02
If I knew then, what I know now.
SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
The court system in this country is not perfect, but we can use it as well as the anti-gunners. Did anyone catch how Ashcroft just made the second amendment and personal weapon rights part of the official position of the united states goverment???
As to the militia...there are good and bad in every side of every issue. Evil...you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have nothing but contempt for wanna-bes sitting around targeting LEO's and members of any particular system that they disagree with. If they put as much effort into the political side of the militia movement...I might have more respect for them. Then we will see who the real men are..and who will be counted. I do respect your views on the militia movement even though mine differ in the area of application.
Start a militia party...broadcast your views from the rooftops...mobilize your voters...hey ...the system still works...remember last election!!!! swede
WyomingSwede
I think this is a case of "speak for yourself." No disrespect, sir, but my friends and associates would take a different view. You live with whatever you[\b] decide to do.
Clouder..
Find cover because theres a black cloud over head.
Some may not like you, get over it or get use to it.
We are very involved in state and Federal politics.
We (the Pacific Northwest Militia Coalition) are constantly coordinating events to raise sheeple awareness and roll the clock back on many 2nd Amendment and tax issues.
I post our latest endeavors on the Net each week. Of all the boards that I frequent, GunBroker's forum is the only one that I do not post this information on, as the climate here is not exactly militia friendly.
If you're interested in some of the projects we have going, I suggest you keep and eye on the General Discussion forum of www.awrm.org.
"I have nothing but contempt for wanna-bes sitting around targeting LEO's and members of any particular system that they disagree with."
I wholeheartedly agree. If you spend some time on the AWRM board either lurking or posting, I believe you'll find that your views on the militia movement are inaccurate. Anyone there would be happy to answer any questions you may have, or just fire off a thread with either "Evil ATF" or "Militia" in the title and I'll be sure to jump in. :-)
Stand And Be Counted
WyomingSwede
Have Gun, will travel
sandman, if that should happen.How long would it take you to make a M60 or a 30 cal tripod and all. I migt be interested.
Thieves in 3 piece suits = Politicians,Doctors & Lawyers