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Oh Yeah,
During the build up it would be portrayed as an armed invasion.
unless ,
1, the NRA pays off the Media.
2, everybody who joins the march informs the Media that they are going to cancel their supscription if they don't like the coverage.
ALL the gun rights groups are worthless;
Period.
JPFO is the only organization that has the correct stance...NO COMPROMISE.
The pity being..they don't lobby sleeze.
Why "worthless" ?
Simple. ALL they manage is to slow the course of gun control. This is terribly destructive to liberty. The frog in the boiling water, ect...
This allows sqishy people the dodge that 'we still can buy guns, can't we'...Slowing the pace of gun control ensures that old timers will die or become incapable of resistance...and the younger people give a damn less about freedom. So many of the older guys also don't have a clue, either...but nothing like the young.
What TR - you have 10 of the posts on this topic, but you can't answer a simple question? You want to play your little idiot name game, yet can't even muster up a decent answer other than I have to give somebody else money in order to be a real defender of my rights. I'm sorry you are such a NRA junkie, maybe when you grow up you can kick your little habit of ranting once a month, because you would rather give money than stand up for yourself......
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
What TR - you have 10 of the posts on this topic, but you can't answer a simple question? You want to play your little idiot name game, yet can't even muster up a decent answer other than I have to give somebody else money in order to be a real defender of my rights. I'm sorry you are such a NRA junkie, maybe when you grow up you can kick your little habit of ranting once a month, because you would rather give money than stand up for yourself......
Another idiot answered my call.
I DID NOT urge anyone to join JUST the NRA. I urge every gunowner to find at least one of the several national progun rights groups that they like and join THAT one and support it. You obviously want to take the cheap and easy way out and, instead of recoginizing that you have more choices than just the NRA, you prefer to focus your whining and justification for cheaping out solely on the NRA.
Are you truly such an idiot that you think that ALL the national pro-gun rights groups are not doing anything to help your gun rights?
quote:Originally posted by Highball
ALL the gun rights groups are worthless;
Period.
JPFO is the only organization that has the correct stance...NO COMPROMISE.
The pity being..they don't lobby sleeze.
Why "worthless" ?
Simple. ALL they manage is to slow the course of gun control. This is terribly destructive to liberty. The frog in the boiling water, ect...
This allows sqishy people the dodge that 'we still can buy guns, can't we'...Slowing the pace of gun control ensures that old timers will die or become incapable of resistance...and the younger people give a damn less about freedom. So many of the older guys also don't have a clue, either...but nothing like the young.
Highball, did it not occur to you that if we could get about 45 million gun owners to join, and loyally support one of the national pro-gun rights organizations, that the final outcome could work FOR you and NOT against you? Reason being that if we had such organization of gun owners, when and if the SHTF as you predict, you would have a ready-made army already having a certain amount of organization in which to take up arms and fight. Surely this would be better for you and your position than letting each and every gun owner have to be an "army of one".
I'm a Endowment Member of the NRA. FWIW, I think they(the NRA) do far more good than bad. In the past (and I don't know, since I'm 39 and really only became active when Klinton was elected) mabye the NRA made some bad calls. But that's the past. NOW, I think they are doing the right thing. No matter how you feel about the NRA, they are BY FAR the most politically powerful pro-gun lobby. Not supporting them, for whatever reason, is counterproductive.
Also, for $35 a year, you get a interesting magazine, and the Member programs and discounts are good.
So keep on ranting, TR. You are better at it than I am, but I agree 100% with you.
P.S. - I'm a Golden Eagle too.
Yeah, but often times it gets very cold and lonely out here on point.
I don't believe any of the organizations do nearly as much as they could with the money they get from members. I fully believe most of it is used for partying and high living. Of course I have no proof of that, only hear-say.
However, like Tr, I am sensible enough to know they're all we have, hence I do pay my dues. When the tons of solitations for donations reach my mailbox, they go straight to my trash bin. I do have my limits, after all...
TR - you still did not answer the question. Get over yourself for a minute and stop ASSuming that just because I do not like the NRA, does not mean I have not donated to them or GOA or RMEF or teaching firearm safety or calling and writting my bonehead reps.
Not "Cheaping out" as you call it - is only money for fools. Until you grow a pair and quit being scared to say "I WILL FIGHT - IF YOU PERSIST IN A GUN BAN". Have you ever said this to your local state rep. or a senator?
"Oh no - Oh my, I wouldn't give up my comfy home or family or cable - I'll just send somebody else money - they will fight for me. You sir - have no right to call names when you are a fool!!
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
TR - you still did not answer the question. Get over yourself for a minute and stop ASSuming that just because I do not like the NRA, does not mean I have not donated to them or GOA or RMEF or teaching firearm safety or calling and writting my bonehead reps.
Not "Cheaping out" as you call it - is only money for fools. Until you grow a pair and quit being scared to say "I WILL FIGHT - IF YOU PERSIST IN A GUN BAN". Have you ever said this to your local state rep. or a senator?
"Oh no - Oh my, I wouldn't give up my comfy home or family or cable - I'll just send somebody else money - they will fight for me. You sir - have no right to call names when you are a fool!!
We gun people already suffer from an uncomfortable excess of gun laws. How much "fighting" have you done about that. Or are you content with all the gun laws and restrictions that you have no need to "fight?" After all, it is a whole he!! of a lot easier (and for some, probably you) cheaper to do little or nothing; but then try and scare the politicans by saying "if you continue with your gun ban, I will fight". What makes you think that suddenly you are going to actually do something, that might hurt, for your gun rights when presently I am guessing that you do nothing of value now?
Why do you assume that anyone that complains about the NRA is not a memeber? (some of us are life members and are tired of the inaction ( not accomplishing a damn thing) and going from a constructive organization to a destructive one.
Why do you think the NRA is losing members?
Could it be they are wiseing up to the fact that the NRA has turned into a money grubbing political organization?
Why does the NRA have to lower its membership fee in order to entice people to send them money.
Could it be because people have seen nothing has been gained, and refuse to throw good money after bad?
What makes you think, because some people dont belong to the NRA that they are for Gun Control.
The NRA is not the cure all for peoples gun rights, if they were there would be no gun laws now..
What makes you think because people refuse to send money to an organization they are not actively fighting for their rights?
There are many local organizations in many states that accomplish more than the NRA ever thought of.
Sit back and think before you start calling people idiots because they dont wish to support the NRA any longer. There has to be a good reason that the NRA is failing, and it damn sure isnt because of my lousy 25.00 bucks..The real reason is because those in power are gonna do what the hell they want to in spite of any damn organization..The NRA just hasnt figured that out yet. That should be self evident, just look at Chicago, New York, California.. The politicos just keep on passing gun restrictions in the face of all Gun Rights Organizations. As long as the people set on their butts (and think I sent in my money I did my part)) and let it happen its gonna happen.
You remind me of the gubment. got a problem, throw more money at it..Money solves all the problems..People and ACTION solve problems. But it will never happen as long as we can pay someone else to solve them for us..
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
TR: Just a few questions for you to ponder.
Why do you assume that anyone that complains about the NRA is not a memeber? (some of us are life members and are tired of the inaction ( not accomplishing a damn thing) and going from a constructive organization to a destructive one.
Why do you think the NRA is losing members?
Could it be they are wiseing up to the fact that the NRA has turned into a money grubbing political organization?
Why does the NRA have to lower its membership fee in order to entice people to send them money.
Could it be because people have seen nothing has been gained, and refuse to throw good money after bad?
What makes you think, because some people dont belong to the NRA that they are for Gun Control.
The NRA is not the cure all for peoples gun rights, if they were there would be no gun laws now..
What makes you think because people refuse to send money to an organization they are not actively fighting for their rights?
There are many local organizations in many states that accomplish more than the NRA ever thought of.
Sit back and think before you start calling people idiots because they dont wish to support the NRA any longer. There has to be a good reason that the NRA is failing, and it damn sure isnt because of my lousy 25.00 bucks..The real reason is because those in power are gonna do what the hell they want to in spite of any damn organization..The NRA just hasnt figured that out yet. That should be self evident, just look at Chicago, New York, California.. The politicos just keep on passing gun restrictions in the face of all Gun Rights Organizations. As long as the people set on their butts (and think I sent in my money I did my part)) and let it happen its gonna happen.
You remind me of the gubment. got a problem, throw more money at it..Money solves all the problems..People and ACTION solve problems. But it will never happen as long as we can pay someone else to solve them for us..
great post classic! one of the best ones I have ever ready by you..
Sorry - wrong answer. The question - stay on track TR - was - Are you willing to fight for your rights???
You can fantasize all you like about what I may or may not do about my rights. You obviously can't read, and you even qouted my statements. Anyway - just like our officials you keep trying to sidestep the issue.
One more chance - a simple yes/no will do.
I think maybe some people expect too much. I see comments by folks who are upset at the NRA because they hadn't stopped enough gun laws from being enacted. Well, all the NRA can do is lobby against them and try to sway politicians, the NRA has no power to stop legislation.
Some people accuse the NRA of inaction. I believe that the organization is very active both in public and behind the scenes in fighting for Second Amendment rights. Just because you don't personally see or hear of some effort being made doesn't mean it isn't happening. Lots of lobbying goes on in private. The NRA is currently meeting the U.N. members to discuss that group's efforts at controlling small arms trafficing. The NRA wants to educate them on legitimate firearms use and marketing to head off efforts the U.N. might make that would hurt gun owners and manufacturers. You might not read about this in your daily paper.
Some people hate political compromise. This is a legitimate point for debate. Some take a no compromise position and I can understand that. Sometimes I agree. The NRA sometimes uses political compromise when they think it's in our best interest, and sometimes they don't. During the debate over the 1994 assault weapon ban the forces behind the ban offered to up the mag limit from 10 to 20 in exchange for the NRA support. The NRA said no way, and either was bad law (although 20 is better). So the law was passed with the 10 round limit. The NRA does stand its ground sometimes.
As for falling membership, the number of members soared during the 1990s. Want to take a wild guess as to why? With a very anti-gun president pushing anti-gun laws people looked for a way to make their opposition heard. Since 2000 the threat to the Second Amendment seems (note I say seems) less determined in Washington so people are less interested in being politically active and those who joined in a panic are falling back into complacency and memberships are lapsing.
The NRA isn't perfect and never will be. You can't possibly please everyone. They make mistakes and have made dumb moves. But the NRA remains the most powerful voice legitimate gun owners have in Washington. I am a life member and I think every gun owner should join. You know how much the politicians hate and fear the NRA by their anti-NRA rhetoric. This must mean the NRA with its 4,000,000 members has some influence. How much more would it have with 10,000,000? members? If you complain that the NRA isn't effective enough in its lobbying then join and encourage others to join as well. More numbers will give the NRA more bargaining power and add to its intimidation factor. Sitting on the sideline and griping never got things done or made things better.
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Too old to live...too young to die...
Oh, as for the "money grubbing" complaint, of course the NRA seeks donations. Everything they do costs money. They hire lawyers to fight court cases and donate cash to friendly candidates. Freedon ain't free, you know? I don't mind a few solicitations for money. You don't have to send any if you don't want.
Some of us, however, understand the reality of the situation and put our money where our mouths are. The Brady Campaign raises money, too, and I want somebody fighting them. Like it or not that's the NRA.
Get involved or sit around and throw verbal bombs. Your choice.
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Too old to live...too young to die...
SAXON,, You siad what I said, "the NRA has no power to stop legislation". So what good are they???????????They need to go back to active support of the shooting sports and get the hell out of politics..
The people have the power to change legislation. Whos voice is stronger 80 million or 1 representative.. Every person needs to get off their duff and be proactive instead of trying to let someone else speak for them..
quote:Highball Posted
People that own guns and support gun laws get no support from me...nor do the organizations that support gun laws but profess to be gun Rights organizations.
Well said Highball.
quote:ladyhunterPosted
it will take every gun owner every group to change all of these laws so that legal gunowners can keep thier rights. Never will all stand together. Lots of gun owners believe in gun control. I do not want them beside me when it is time to ride the river. I will consider them the enemy.
Saxon - I completely understand your statements, and can respect the fact that these types of political organizations need money to operate.
What I'm trying to say is - the time for lobbys and pocket lining is done. Those tacktics still have not stopped any laws, but only compromise everytime new legislation is introduced.
You say that we expect too much - no - they are doing what they are designed to do. Take in money and give the feeling that they can actually verbally fight this loosing battle with power hungry politicians intent on disarming the populace. They cannot win!!!
I only believe that the constitution charges each and every one of us to defend our rights. MT is correct - you will never get all gun owners to even agree on how many gun confiscations it will take, before you take your gun in hand and say ENOUGH.
As you see here - TR can't even answer as to if he would even contemplate such a bold suggestion.
Yes it is not the way it should be, where politicians respect our rights and the constitution as charged under oath. But at some point we have to say ENOUGH and back up our words with the courage to do more than give more and more money to a failing system. Are we not taxed enough (that's a whole nother story there).
By the way - thanks for stating your opinion without calling others idiots!!
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
TR: Just a few questions for you to ponder.
Why do you assume that anyone that complains about the NRA is not a memeber? (some of us are life members and are tired of the inaction ( not accomplishing a damn thing) and going from a constructive organization to a destructive one.
Why do you think the NRA is losing members?
Could it be they are wiseing up to the fact that the NRA has turned into a money grubbing political organization?
Why does the NRA have to lower its membership fee in order to entice people to send them money.
Could it be because people have seen nothing has been gained, and refuse to throw good money after bad?
What makes you think, because some people dont belong to the NRA that they are for Gun Control.
The NRA is not the cure all for peoples gun rights, if they were there would be no gun laws now..
What makes you think because people refuse to send money to an organization they are not actively fighting for their rights?
There are many local organizations in many states that accomplish more than the NRA ever thought of.
Sit back and think before you start calling people idiots because they dont wish to support the NRA any longer. There has to be a good reason that the NRA is failing, and it damn sure isnt because of my lousy 25.00 bucks..The real reason is because those in power are gonna do what the hell they want to in spite of any damn organization..The NRA just hasnt figured that out yet. That should be self evident, just look at Chicago, New York, California.. The politicos just keep on passing gun restrictions in the face of all Gun Rights Organizations. As long as the people set on their butts (and think I sent in my money I did my part)) and let it happen its gonna happen.
You remind me of the gubment. got a problem, throw more money at it..Money solves all the problems..People and ACTION solve problems. But it will never happen as long as we can pay someone else to solve them for us..
Here is but one question for you to ponder. Why do you harp on the NRA? Numerous times in this thread I have stated that I am urging gun owners who are not tightwads to find at least one of the national pro-gun rights groups and join and support that group. It does NOT have to be the NRA. Local groups fighting for local gun rights are great and very needed. However, surely you know that your local gun rights group can achieve miracles; but those miracles can be eliminated in a single law that is passed nationally.
Surely you do not claim that ALL national pro-gun rights groups are worthless? And if you don't disagree with my statment, then why don't you pony up a little money, time and effort and support one of the national groups?
Saxonpig. It is worthless to try and convert people who love inaction and being tighwads more than they love their guns. All there talk about the NRA is merely an attempt to cloud the issue by hiding behind their claim that the NRA is not worth supporting. Fortuntely, in order to expose their true reasons for their inaction and cheapness, we can throw it in their face that if they don't like the NRA, then support one of the other national pro-gun rights groups. But the slackers conveinently don't answer the particular question. I guess they know more than anyone else and must think that ALL the national pro-gun rights groups are money grubbers who take expensive vacations on their H-U-G-E yearly dues (between a bank busting $20.00 and $35.00) and do and have done absoutely nothing for gun rights.
It appears to me that they must actually believe the above, or they would support at least one of the national pro-gun rights groups. The fact that they don't reveals such ignorance that I don't care to try and debate it with them any more on this thread.
Classic- You're misinterpreting my words. They have no legislative power to stop bad laws, but the NRA is one of the most powerful lobbying groups. I think you're wrong when you say they have done no good. I think that if it weren't for the lobbying efforts of the NRA we would have much, much worse laws in effect right now. If it weren't for the NRA you can bet your bottom dollar the 1994 AWB would have been renewed 2 years ago.
All I can do, once again, is point out that the anti-gunners hate the NRA and blame it for their failure to get more gun laws passed. Sounds like a good recommendation to me.
BlueTic- If the time for lobbying and picket lines is done as you say, then what do you suggest? Armed insurrection? I'm not quite ready to die in a hail of 5.56 bullets, thank you very much.
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Too old to live...too young to die...
TR: again what makes you think I dont as you put it "Pony Up,, I spend more in a month than you probably spend it 5 years working on legislation for gun owners.. If you read what I posted,, I belong to several nation organizations, but actually its no ones business. You assume because your stuck on the NRA God that everyone else must be or they are not doing something.. When I get some time I will send you the hundred or so letters I have sent out and the replys I get.. Why dont you spend more than your measly 25.00 bucks NRA dues and really get to work on your own damn rights..[:(]
So your done TR - no more ragging - answer my question...
Saxon - what I suggest is that every firearm owner call their Reps and calmly explain that we are done talking. You have meanieized our constitution and I will not obey any more unconstitutional mandate in regards to my right to keep and bear arms. Is that too hard - No. Here is the hard part, and I do not even know that I could or could not raise my rifle/pistol when they come for them. But I'll try and they better be ready. If you call defending Our rights an insurection - they have won you over.
BLUETIC: Its easier to rag on people about Joining the NRA and spending 25.00 and think they have done something than it is to actually "Pony UP" and do some of the work themselves..I quarentee that if 80 million letters land in the white house, it will have more affect than the one or two NRA mouthpeices rubbing elbows with some congressman offering him money to vote the other way..
I would bet half of the members in here dont even know who all their state representatives or congressmen are up there in Washington, not to mention the ones at state level..[:(]
And I bet maybe just maybe a couple actually sent a letter of disgust to the legislation of New Orleans.. I did, and was reminded that I was not a resident of that state, but at least I was heard..[:0]
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
TR: again what makes you think I dont as you put it "Pony Up,, I spend more in a month than you probably spend it 5 years working on legislation for gun owners.. If you read what I posted,, I belong to several nation organizations, but actually its no ones business. You assume because your stuck on the NRA God that everyone else must be or they are not doing something.. When I get some time I will send you the hundred or so letters I have sent out and the replys I get.. Why dont you spend more than your measly 25.00 bucks NRA dues and really get to work on your own damn rights..[:(]
If you belong to even ONE national pro-gun rights organization, then why the F-CK are you and I spending our valuable time disagreeing?
I am not "stuck" on the NRA. I encourage everyone to pick one of the national organizations they feel they can support and actually support that organization.
And it IS "anyone's business" what other gun owners do or don't do in regards to helping fight the gun rights battle. Those gun owners who are tight and cheap and do little or nothing to fight to preserve their rights don't even deserve the right to associate with those of us who do.
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
BLUETIC: Its easier to rag on people about Joining the NRA and spending 25.00 and think they have done something than it is to actually "Pony UP" and do some of the work themselves..I quarentee that if 80 million letters land in the white house, it will have more affect than the one or two NRA mouthpeices rubbing elbows with some congressman offering him money to vote the other way..
I would bet half of the members in here dont even know who all their state representatives or congressmen are up there in Washington, not to mention the ones at state level..[:(]
And I bet maybe just maybe a couple actually sent a letter of disgust to the legislation of New Orleans.. I did, and was reminded that I was not a resident of that state, but at least I was heard..[:0]
Once again you chose to cloud the issue by trying to make it look like I encourage gun owners to join ONLY the NRA. How many times do I have to tell you that I encourage everyone to find one national pro-gun rights organization and join and support that organization. It DOES NOT have to be the NRA.
Actually, I am suspicious of some of your claims. You seem willing to align yourself with Bluetic and lash out at me. But if you think about it, based on your own words, you and I are soldiers wearing the same uniform. We both believe in and support at least one national pro-gun rights organization. Yet I firmly believe that Bluetic supports NO gun right organization and instead ignorantly thinks he can (an will) frighten the anti-gun crowd by threatening them with armed resistance if they "go too far". I laugh at this since probably Bluetic has lived a lawful life until now but he expects us to believe that if his gun rights are violated (aren't they aready) past a certain point, he is going to start shooting. What a joke he is. It is people like that that give the anti-gun crowd more evidence of why all guns should be banned.
The Philadelphia Weakly has a column from an editor who advocates no-warrent search of cars and persons in an effort to pick up some of the illegal guns.
I responded:
Great article. What a fantastic proposal you offer. Throw the Fourth Amendment out the window. Well, it was born in Philadelphia, and, upon the Happy Hippo I swear, we can durn well trash it if we please.
Lets not stop there. How about placing conditions on the First Amendment ... like, news writers must stick to the facts! Oh, wait, then the media would lose 95% of their content.
Don't you feel like a dork, Brian, allowing your editor to sucker you into stating such a ridiculous premise as your own?
So Brian tells me he hopes I am secure with my 4th Amendment. Damn packing wingnut.
Does anyone agree that NOT everyone out there is competent or responsible enough to own a gun? I'm referring to that elite group of homo sapiens called *ssholes who don't lock up their guns when kids are around, drink to excess or do drugs while having a loaded weapon on their person or nearby, and simply cannot grasp the concept that some measure of maturity and social responsibility MUST accompany the ownership of a gun. Amendments are nice to have and rhetoric is often cheap but most of you have already met up with one of the *ssholes I'm referring to. They don't get it and they never will. So, despite the issue of a RIGHT, perhaps NOT everyone should have the PRIVILEGE of owning a gun.
So, Slow-Hand...you are the guy appointed to decide who does...and who does NOT..get a gun...ehhh ?
You sound exactly like Shumer/Fiendstein/Kennedy..exept for the fact they don't pretend to be Second Amendment supporters.
Sooo..I guess I can respect THEM...more then you..ehhh ?
I dunno...Mr. Hand has a point. Let us take it to the extreme, and imagine a hypothetical citizen who has been hospitalized numerous times for, say, bipolar disorder, who has had several run-ins with the local gendarmes over anger-management issues resulting in violent displays. You wanna say this guy has a right to bear arms? No, this guy has a right to be institutionalized.
How about folks that have been convicted of felony-level violence against their fellow man? Some guy seething with rage against "them", whoever they may be, wants to arm himself. You gonna sell him your .308?
And, hey, let's not forget kids. Want to arm six-year-olds? How about adults with six-year-old mental capacity?
Well, there are laws to prevent all of these, and they are good laws. None of them infringe upon the rights of law-abiding citizens to own guns. None of these laws are to be feared. Let's keep some perspective here.
(And for the slow among you, NO, I am not suggesting that anyone suffering from bipolar disorder should be barred from gun ownership. I am merely using this condition to illustrate a point.)
The criminally insane need to be executed or incarcerated. Those that "Suffer temporary insanity" would be shot out of hand by a decent citizen, if they go crazy in public.
The "Felony" business is easy. Man commits a crime so heinous that he could never be handed back his gun...execute him. Otherwise..the day he "Paid His Debt to Society" (You HAVE heard of this..surely) and walks out of prison...HAND HIM HIS GUN BACK...along with his rights.
Naturally..I speak of a sane world...QUITE unlike today...when "sane" people (go figure) believe that somehow by magic..passing laws will prevent a criminal from getting a gun...
I call that "thinking' a product of government propaganda...and a panacia of cowards.
I feel it's a legitimate question to ask ourselves. Note that I never implied or said that I was or should be the one to decide who gets a gun or doesn't. Geez, I'm simply not that enlightened.[:D]
As a gun owner, I merely question whether or not certain individuals can be entrusted by our society to own and operate a gun responsibly. I'm not referring to the criminals here, just totally unqualified individuals. There are many sub-issues for everyone to look at, but before the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater courtesy of additional legislation and regulation, perhaps the stance of the more vocal gun advocates has to soften a bit so that the gun rights of all the responsible, law-abiding citizens are not infringed upon or done away with in the process. I'd just hate to see my RIGHT to own a gun taken away because of the actions of immature and irresponsible *ssholes who probably shouldn't have guns. Just my opinion.
One does not cure a sick patient by bleeding the guy next to him. Why would you be content to accept gun control to restrict the guy that NEEDS restricting ?
No...DEMAND that the guilty accept responsibility for their OWN actions..and stop allowing THEIR acts to slop over on YOU....
So if I understand you correctly, HighBall, your position is one of all or nothing - right?
If that's true, what would you do if, hypothetically, more and more anti-gun laws are eventually enacted in response to heinous violent gun crimes and after all is said and done, you, me and next guy end up with nothing?
I believe that the more hard-nosed the stance taken, the fiercer the opposition to it will be. That's just the law of probability and statistics as it applies to human nature. Society as as whole usually deflects towards the more benign behavior of people and so guns would go away. That would be most unfortunate.
Obviously, you and I differ dramatically in our respective opinions and that's perfectly okay. I respect your right to yours and I hope you feel likewise. That's what makes America so great. Just remember that I'm NOT against guns or the right of RESPONSIBLE law-abiding citizens to buy and keep them.
So - We see that TR will never fight for his rights. But will denigrate people who believe in our constitution. So TR - we disagree. You sir are worse than the Brady bunch, in that you believe that you are better than others! And if we do not fall in line with your socialist retoric - we have no right even to our own opinion. I hope one of your neighbors has the balls to defend you when they come to take yours away, because your precious defenders of our rights groups ain't going to come and save you.
If you can't see that these groups have not saved us yet in over 70 years of ever increasing firearm restrictions - and still give them money - you are a fool to tell me I have to just to have the priviledge of associating with you. Ehhhh - I do not want or need your approval - I do wish that you could refrain from your juvenile attempts to recrute people by denigrating others - or better yet. Why don't you keep this crap over on the GUN RIGHTS BOARD!!!!
Slow Hand - good name. But, again, are you soo much better than others that you can decide who has the right to defend themselves?
quote:Originally posted by Slow_Hand
Does anyone agree that NOT everyone out there is competent or responsible enough to own a gun? I'm referring to that elite group of homo sapiens called *ssholes who don't lock up their guns when kids are around, drink to excess or do drugs while having a loaded weapon on their person or nearby, and simply cannot grasp the concept that some measure of maturity and social responsibility MUST accompany the ownership of a gun. Amendments are nice to have and rhetoric is often cheap but most of you have already met up with one of the *ssholes I'm referring to. They don't get it and they never will. So, despite the issue of a RIGHT, perhaps NOT everyone should have the PRIVILEGE of owning a gun.
This is simply the cost of living in a free society sir. The answer to criminal stupidity in any form, such as you cite, is not to prohibit ownership by ANYONE, it is to punish the BAD ACT, period.
I for one, do not need your type of "help" in maintaining my RIGHT to keep and bear arms. You seem to be the "poster boy" for what this nation is turning into. Go away please.
If any of you actually read my earlier posting and reply on this thread, I never ever said nor did I ever imply that I was better than anyone else or that I should be the one to decide who gets a gun and who doesn't. That's not the question I initially raised in the thread nor is it even the point I was trying to make so why the paranoia?
Comments
During the build up it would be portrayed as an armed invasion.
unless ,
1, the NRA pays off the Media.
2, everybody who joins the march informs the Media that they are going to cancel their supscription if they don't like the coverage.
Period.
JPFO is the only organization that has the correct stance...NO COMPROMISE.
The pity being..they don't lobby sleeze.
Why "worthless" ?
Simple. ALL they manage is to slow the course of gun control. This is terribly destructive to liberty. The frog in the boiling water, ect...
This allows sqishy people the dodge that 'we still can buy guns, can't we'...Slowing the pace of gun control ensures that old timers will die or become incapable of resistance...and the younger people give a damn less about freedom. So many of the older guys also don't have a clue, either...but nothing like the young.
What TR - you have 10 of the posts on this topic, but you can't answer a simple question? You want to play your little idiot name game, yet can't even muster up a decent answer other than I have to give somebody else money in order to be a real defender of my rights. I'm sorry you are such a NRA junkie, maybe when you grow up you can kick your little habit of ranting once a month, because you would rather give money than stand up for yourself......
Another idiot answered my call.
I DID NOT urge anyone to join JUST the NRA. I urge every gunowner to find at least one of the several national progun rights groups that they like and join THAT one and support it. You obviously want to take the cheap and easy way out and, instead of recoginizing that you have more choices than just the NRA, you prefer to focus your whining and justification for cheaping out solely on the NRA.
Are you truly such an idiot that you think that ALL the national pro-gun rights groups are not doing anything to help your gun rights?
ALL the gun rights groups are worthless;
Period.
JPFO is the only organization that has the correct stance...NO COMPROMISE.
The pity being..they don't lobby sleeze.
Why "worthless" ?
Simple. ALL they manage is to slow the course of gun control. This is terribly destructive to liberty. The frog in the boiling water, ect...
This allows sqishy people the dodge that 'we still can buy guns, can't we'...Slowing the pace of gun control ensures that old timers will die or become incapable of resistance...and the younger people give a damn less about freedom. So many of the older guys also don't have a clue, either...but nothing like the young.
Highball, did it not occur to you that if we could get about 45 million gun owners to join, and loyally support one of the national pro-gun rights organizations, that the final outcome could work FOR you and NOT against you? Reason being that if we had such organization of gun owners, when and if the SHTF as you predict, you would have a ready-made army already having a certain amount of organization in which to take up arms and fight. Surely this would be better for you and your position than letting each and every gun owner have to be an "army of one".
TR -
I'm a Endowment Member of the NRA. FWIW, I think they(the NRA) do far more good than bad. In the past (and I don't know, since I'm 39 and really only became active when Klinton was elected) mabye the NRA made some bad calls. But that's the past. NOW, I think they are doing the right thing. No matter how you feel about the NRA, they are BY FAR the most politically powerful pro-gun lobby. Not supporting them, for whatever reason, is counterproductive.
Also, for $35 a year, you get a interesting magazine, and the Member programs and discounts are good.
So keep on ranting, TR. You are better at it than I am, but I agree 100% with you.
P.S. - I'm a Golden Eagle too.
Yeah, but often times it gets very cold and lonely out here on point.
However, like Tr, I am sensible enough to know they're all we have, hence I do pay my dues. When the tons of solitations for donations reach my mailbox, they go straight to my trash bin. I do have my limits, after all...
Not "Cheaping out" as you call it - is only money for fools. Until you grow a pair and quit being scared to say "I WILL FIGHT - IF YOU PERSIST IN A GUN BAN". Have you ever said this to your local state rep. or a senator?
"Oh no - Oh my, I wouldn't give up my comfy home or family or cable - I'll just send somebody else money - they will fight for me. You sir - have no right to call names when you are a fool!!
TR - you still did not answer the question. Get over yourself for a minute and stop ASSuming that just because I do not like the NRA, does not mean I have not donated to them or GOA or RMEF or teaching firearm safety or calling and writting my bonehead reps.
Not "Cheaping out" as you call it - is only money for fools. Until you grow a pair and quit being scared to say "I WILL FIGHT - IF YOU PERSIST IN A GUN BAN". Have you ever said this to your local state rep. or a senator?
"Oh no - Oh my, I wouldn't give up my comfy home or family or cable - I'll just send somebody else money - they will fight for me. You sir - have no right to call names when you are a fool!!
We gun people already suffer from an uncomfortable excess of gun laws. How much "fighting" have you done about that. Or are you content with all the gun laws and restrictions that you have no need to "fight?" After all, it is a whole he!! of a lot easier (and for some, probably you) cheaper to do little or nothing; but then try and scare the politicans by saying "if you continue with your gun ban, I will fight". What makes you think that suddenly you are going to actually do something, that might hurt, for your gun rights when presently I am guessing that you do nothing of value now?
Why do you assume that anyone that complains about the NRA is not a memeber? (some of us are life members and are tired of the inaction ( not accomplishing a damn thing) and going from a constructive organization to a destructive one.
Why do you think the NRA is losing members?
Could it be they are wiseing up to the fact that the NRA has turned into a money grubbing political organization?
Why does the NRA have to lower its membership fee in order to entice people to send them money.
Could it be because people have seen nothing has been gained, and refuse to throw good money after bad?
What makes you think, because some people dont belong to the NRA that they are for Gun Control.
The NRA is not the cure all for peoples gun rights, if they were there would be no gun laws now..
What makes you think because people refuse to send money to an organization they are not actively fighting for their rights?
There are many local organizations in many states that accomplish more than the NRA ever thought of.
Sit back and think before you start calling people idiots because they dont wish to support the NRA any longer. There has to be a good reason that the NRA is failing, and it damn sure isnt because of my lousy 25.00 bucks..The real reason is because those in power are gonna do what the hell they want to in spite of any damn organization..The NRA just hasnt figured that out yet. That should be self evident, just look at Chicago, New York, California.. The politicos just keep on passing gun restrictions in the face of all Gun Rights Organizations. As long as the people set on their butts (and think I sent in my money I did my part)) and let it happen its gonna happen.
You remind me of the gubment. got a problem, throw more money at it..Money solves all the problems..People and ACTION solve problems. But it will never happen as long as we can pay someone else to solve them for us..
TR: Just a few questions for you to ponder.
Why do you assume that anyone that complains about the NRA is not a memeber? (some of us are life members and are tired of the inaction ( not accomplishing a damn thing) and going from a constructive organization to a destructive one.
Why do you think the NRA is losing members?
Could it be they are wiseing up to the fact that the NRA has turned into a money grubbing political organization?
Why does the NRA have to lower its membership fee in order to entice people to send them money.
Could it be because people have seen nothing has been gained, and refuse to throw good money after bad?
What makes you think, because some people dont belong to the NRA that they are for Gun Control.
The NRA is not the cure all for peoples gun rights, if they were there would be no gun laws now..
What makes you think because people refuse to send money to an organization they are not actively fighting for their rights?
There are many local organizations in many states that accomplish more than the NRA ever thought of.
Sit back and think before you start calling people idiots because they dont wish to support the NRA any longer. There has to be a good reason that the NRA is failing, and it damn sure isnt because of my lousy 25.00 bucks..The real reason is because those in power are gonna do what the hell they want to in spite of any damn organization..The NRA just hasnt figured that out yet. That should be self evident, just look at Chicago, New York, California.. The politicos just keep on passing gun restrictions in the face of all Gun Rights Organizations. As long as the people set on their butts (and think I sent in my money I did my part)) and let it happen its gonna happen.
You remind me of the gubment. got a problem, throw more money at it..Money solves all the problems..People and ACTION solve problems. But it will never happen as long as we can pay someone else to solve them for us..
great post classic! one of the best ones I have ever ready by you..
not that you'd care
[dang it there goes my reputation.[:D]
Your reputation is safe with me. Don
You can fantasize all you like about what I may or may not do about my rights. You obviously can't read, and you even qouted my statements. Anyway - just like our officials you keep trying to sidestep the issue.
One more chance - a simple yes/no will do.
Some people accuse the NRA of inaction. I believe that the organization is very active both in public and behind the scenes in fighting for Second Amendment rights. Just because you don't personally see or hear of some effort being made doesn't mean it isn't happening. Lots of lobbying goes on in private. The NRA is currently meeting the U.N. members to discuss that group's efforts at controlling small arms trafficing. The NRA wants to educate them on legitimate firearms use and marketing to head off efforts the U.N. might make that would hurt gun owners and manufacturers. You might not read about this in your daily paper.
Some people hate political compromise. This is a legitimate point for debate. Some take a no compromise position and I can understand that. Sometimes I agree. The NRA sometimes uses political compromise when they think it's in our best interest, and sometimes they don't. During the debate over the 1994 assault weapon ban the forces behind the ban offered to up the mag limit from 10 to 20 in exchange for the NRA support. The NRA said no way, and either was bad law (although 20 is better). So the law was passed with the 10 round limit. The NRA does stand its ground sometimes.
As for falling membership, the number of members soared during the 1990s. Want to take a wild guess as to why? With a very anti-gun president pushing anti-gun laws people looked for a way to make their opposition heard. Since 2000 the threat to the Second Amendment seems (note I say seems) less determined in Washington so people are less interested in being politically active and those who joined in a panic are falling back into complacency and memberships are lapsing.
The NRA isn't perfect and never will be. You can't possibly please everyone. They make mistakes and have made dumb moves. But the NRA remains the most powerful voice legitimate gun owners have in Washington. I am a life member and I think every gun owner should join. You know how much the politicians hate and fear the NRA by their anti-NRA rhetoric. This must mean the NRA with its 4,000,000 members has some influence. How much more would it have with 10,000,000? members? If you complain that the NRA isn't effective enough in its lobbying then join and encourage others to join as well. More numbers will give the NRA more bargaining power and add to its intimidation factor. Sitting on the sideline and griping never got things done or made things better.
Too old to live...too young to die...
Some of us, however, understand the reality of the situation and put our money where our mouths are. The Brady Campaign raises money, too, and I want somebody fighting them. Like it or not that's the NRA.
Get involved or sit around and throw verbal bombs. Your choice.
Too old to live...too young to die...
The people have the power to change legislation. Whos voice is stronger 80 million or 1 representative.. Every person needs to get off their duff and be proactive instead of trying to let someone else speak for them..
People that own guns and support gun laws get no support from me...nor do the organizations that support gun laws but profess to be gun Rights organizations.
Well said Highball.
quote:ladyhunterPosted
it will take every gun owner every group to change all of these laws so that legal gunowners can keep thier rights. Never will all stand together. Lots of gun owners believe in gun control. I do not want them beside me when it is time to ride the river. I will consider them the enemy.
What I'm trying to say is - the time for lobbys and pocket lining is done. Those tacktics still have not stopped any laws, but only compromise everytime new legislation is introduced.
You say that we expect too much - no - they are doing what they are designed to do. Take in money and give the feeling that they can actually verbally fight this loosing battle with power hungry politicians intent on disarming the populace. They cannot win!!!
I only believe that the constitution charges each and every one of us to defend our rights. MT is correct - you will never get all gun owners to even agree on how many gun confiscations it will take, before you take your gun in hand and say ENOUGH.
As you see here - TR can't even answer as to if he would even contemplate such a bold suggestion.
Yes it is not the way it should be, where politicians respect our rights and the constitution as charged under oath. But at some point we have to say ENOUGH and back up our words with the courage to do more than give more and more money to a failing system. Are we not taxed enough (that's a whole nother story there).
By the way - thanks for stating your opinion without calling others idiots!!
TR: Just a few questions for you to ponder.
Why do you assume that anyone that complains about the NRA is not a memeber? (some of us are life members and are tired of the inaction ( not accomplishing a damn thing) and going from a constructive organization to a destructive one.
Why do you think the NRA is losing members?
Could it be they are wiseing up to the fact that the NRA has turned into a money grubbing political organization?
Why does the NRA have to lower its membership fee in order to entice people to send them money.
Could it be because people have seen nothing has been gained, and refuse to throw good money after bad?
What makes you think, because some people dont belong to the NRA that they are for Gun Control.
The NRA is not the cure all for peoples gun rights, if they were there would be no gun laws now..
What makes you think because people refuse to send money to an organization they are not actively fighting for their rights?
There are many local organizations in many states that accomplish more than the NRA ever thought of.
Sit back and think before you start calling people idiots because they dont wish to support the NRA any longer. There has to be a good reason that the NRA is failing, and it damn sure isnt because of my lousy 25.00 bucks..The real reason is because those in power are gonna do what the hell they want to in spite of any damn organization..The NRA just hasnt figured that out yet. That should be self evident, just look at Chicago, New York, California.. The politicos just keep on passing gun restrictions in the face of all Gun Rights Organizations. As long as the people set on their butts (and think I sent in my money I did my part)) and let it happen its gonna happen.
You remind me of the gubment. got a problem, throw more money at it..Money solves all the problems..People and ACTION solve problems. But it will never happen as long as we can pay someone else to solve them for us..
Here is but one question for you to ponder. Why do you harp on the NRA? Numerous times in this thread I have stated that I am urging gun owners who are not tightwads to find at least one of the national pro-gun rights groups and join and support that group. It does NOT have to be the NRA. Local groups fighting for local gun rights are great and very needed. However, surely you know that your local gun rights group can achieve miracles; but those miracles can be eliminated in a single law that is passed nationally.
Surely you do not claim that ALL national pro-gun rights groups are worthless? And if you don't disagree with my statment, then why don't you pony up a little money, time and effort and support one of the national groups?
It appears to me that they must actually believe the above, or they would support at least one of the national pro-gun rights groups. The fact that they don't reveals such ignorance that I don't care to try and debate it with them any more on this thread.
All I can do, once again, is point out that the anti-gunners hate the NRA and blame it for their failure to get more gun laws passed. Sounds like a good recommendation to me.
BlueTic- If the time for lobbying and picket lines is done as you say, then what do you suggest? Armed insurrection? I'm not quite ready to die in a hail of 5.56 bullets, thank you very much.
Too old to live...too young to die...
I only believe that the constitution charges each and every one of us to defend our rights.
That should be posted in court houses!
Saxon - what I suggest is that every firearm owner call their Reps and calmly explain that we are done talking. You have meanieized our constitution and I will not obey any more unconstitutional mandate in regards to my right to keep and bear arms. Is that too hard - No. Here is the hard part, and I do not even know that I could or could not raise my rifle/pistol when they come for them. But I'll try and they better be ready. If you call defending Our rights an insurection - they have won you over.
I would bet half of the members in here dont even know who all their state representatives or congressmen are up there in Washington, not to mention the ones at state level..[:(]
And I bet maybe just maybe a couple actually sent a letter of disgust to the legislation of New Orleans.. I did, and was reminded that I was not a resident of that state, but at least I was heard..[:0]
TR: again what makes you think I dont as you put it "Pony Up,, I spend more in a month than you probably spend it 5 years working on legislation for gun owners.. If you read what I posted,, I belong to several nation organizations, but actually its no ones business. You assume because your stuck on the NRA God that everyone else must be or they are not doing something.. When I get some time I will send you the hundred or so letters I have sent out and the replys I get.. Why dont you spend more than your measly 25.00 bucks NRA dues and really get to work on your own damn rights..[:(]
If you belong to even ONE national pro-gun rights organization, then why the F-CK are you and I spending our valuable time disagreeing?
I am not "stuck" on the NRA. I encourage everyone to pick one of the national organizations they feel they can support and actually support that organization.
And it IS "anyone's business" what other gun owners do or don't do in regards to helping fight the gun rights battle. Those gun owners who are tight and cheap and do little or nothing to fight to preserve their rights don't even deserve the right to associate with those of us who do.
BLUETIC: Its easier to rag on people about Joining the NRA and spending 25.00 and think they have done something than it is to actually "Pony UP" and do some of the work themselves..I quarentee that if 80 million letters land in the white house, it will have more affect than the one or two NRA mouthpeices rubbing elbows with some congressman offering him money to vote the other way..
I would bet half of the members in here dont even know who all their state representatives or congressmen are up there in Washington, not to mention the ones at state level..[:(]
And I bet maybe just maybe a couple actually sent a letter of disgust to the legislation of New Orleans.. I did, and was reminded that I was not a resident of that state, but at least I was heard..[:0]
Once again you chose to cloud the issue by trying to make it look like I encourage gun owners to join ONLY the NRA. How many times do I have to tell you that I encourage everyone to find one national pro-gun rights organization and join and support that organization. It DOES NOT have to be the NRA.
Actually, I am suspicious of some of your claims. You seem willing to align yourself with Bluetic and lash out at me. But if you think about it, based on your own words, you and I are soldiers wearing the same uniform. We both believe in and support at least one national pro-gun rights organization. Yet I firmly believe that Bluetic supports NO gun right organization and instead ignorantly thinks he can (an will) frighten the anti-gun crowd by threatening them with armed resistance if they "go too far". I laugh at this since probably Bluetic has lived a lawful life until now but he expects us to believe that if his gun rights are violated (aren't they aready) past a certain point, he is going to start shooting. What a joke he is. It is people like that that give the anti-gun crowd more evidence of why all guns should be banned.
I responded:
Great article. What a fantastic proposal you offer. Throw the Fourth Amendment out the window. Well, it was born in Philadelphia, and, upon the Happy Hippo I swear, we can durn well trash it if we please.
Lets not stop there. How about placing conditions on the First Amendment ... like, news writers must stick to the facts! Oh, wait, then the media would lose 95% of their content.
Don't you feel like a dork, Brian, allowing your editor to sucker you into stating such a ridiculous premise as your own?
So Brian tells me he hopes I am secure with my 4th Amendment. Damn packing wingnut.
You sound exactly like Shumer/Fiendstein/Kennedy..exept for the fact they don't pretend to be Second Amendment supporters.
Sooo..I guess I can respect THEM...more then you..ehhh ?
How about folks that have been convicted of felony-level violence against their fellow man? Some guy seething with rage against "them", whoever they may be, wants to arm himself. You gonna sell him your .308?
And, hey, let's not forget kids. Want to arm six-year-olds? How about adults with six-year-old mental capacity?
Well, there are laws to prevent all of these, and they are good laws. None of them infringe upon the rights of law-abiding citizens to own guns. None of these laws are to be feared. Let's keep some perspective here.
(And for the slow among you, NO, I am not suggesting that anyone suffering from bipolar disorder should be barred from gun ownership. I am merely using this condition to illustrate a point.)
The "Felony" business is easy. Man commits a crime so heinous that he could never be handed back his gun...execute him. Otherwise..the day he "Paid His Debt to Society" (You HAVE heard of this..surely) and walks out of prison...HAND HIM HIS GUN BACK...along with his rights.
Naturally..I speak of a sane world...QUITE unlike today...when "sane" people (go figure) believe that somehow by magic..passing laws will prevent a criminal from getting a gun...
I call that "thinking' a product of government propaganda...and a panacia of cowards.
As a gun owner, I merely question whether or not certain individuals can be entrusted by our society to own and operate a gun responsibly. I'm not referring to the criminals here, just totally unqualified individuals. There are many sub-issues for everyone to look at, but before the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater courtesy of additional legislation and regulation, perhaps the stance of the more vocal gun advocates has to soften a bit so that the gun rights of all the responsible, law-abiding citizens are not infringed upon or done away with in the process. I'd just hate to see my RIGHT to own a gun taken away because of the actions of immature and irresponsible *ssholes who probably shouldn't have guns. Just my opinion.
No...DEMAND that the guilty accept responsibility for their OWN actions..and stop allowing THEIR acts to slop over on YOU....
If that's true, what would you do if, hypothetically, more and more anti-gun laws are eventually enacted in response to heinous violent gun crimes and after all is said and done, you, me and next guy end up with nothing?
I believe that the more hard-nosed the stance taken, the fiercer the opposition to it will be. That's just the law of probability and statistics as it applies to human nature. Society as as whole usually deflects towards the more benign behavior of people and so guns would go away. That would be most unfortunate.
Obviously, you and I differ dramatically in our respective opinions and that's perfectly okay. I respect your right to yours and I hope you feel likewise. That's what makes America so great. Just remember that I'm NOT against guns or the right of RESPONSIBLE law-abiding citizens to buy and keep them.
If you can't see that these groups have not saved us yet in over 70 years of ever increasing firearm restrictions - and still give them money - you are a fool to tell me I have to just to have the priviledge of associating with you. Ehhhh - I do not want or need your approval - I do wish that you could refrain from your juvenile attempts to recrute people by denigrating others - or better yet. Why don't you keep this crap over on the GUN RIGHTS BOARD!!!!
Slow Hand - good name. But, again, are you soo much better than others that you can decide who has the right to defend themselves?
Does anyone agree that NOT everyone out there is competent or responsible enough to own a gun? I'm referring to that elite group of homo sapiens called *ssholes who don't lock up their guns when kids are around, drink to excess or do drugs while having a loaded weapon on their person or nearby, and simply cannot grasp the concept that some measure of maturity and social responsibility MUST accompany the ownership of a gun. Amendments are nice to have and rhetoric is often cheap but most of you have already met up with one of the *ssholes I'm referring to. They don't get it and they never will. So, despite the issue of a RIGHT, perhaps NOT everyone should have the PRIVILEGE of owning a gun.
This is simply the cost of living in a free society sir. The answer to criminal stupidity in any form, such as you cite, is not to prohibit ownership by ANYONE, it is to punish the BAD ACT, period.
I for one, do not need your type of "help" in maintaining my RIGHT to keep and bear arms. You seem to be the "poster boy" for what this nation is turning into. Go away please.