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When you find you are standing in a deep hole, step 1 is QUIT DIGGING ! In MOST states, failure to sign the summons promising to appear means that you are NOT released, but go to jail. As far as having a prosecutor, am confident they will find one for ya.
quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
quote:Originally posted by bhale187
quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
The cop asked me if I was a lawyer. And then he rightfully assumed I wasn't signing the ticket without a lawyer being provided and present, seeing as when I asked him if I was being detained, he said yes.
So the next day I sent a registered letter asking for the Oaths of Office of the district judge and the cop, in accordance with the Open Records Act, Sunshine Act, etc etc.. stated the law, the whole 9 yards.
I never sent the ticket in within the "10 day allotment". I have yet to receive copies of the oaths or a subpoena for the summary offense.
I couldn't care less about the summary offense. But theyre starting to pi$$ me off by ignoring my request for public records, and without their oaths, they are impersonating a judge and an officer.
What is my next course of action? Should I go to the county sheriff?
get a lawyer, you're going to need one to fight that ticket [B)]
A lawyer? Sounds like a waste of money. I know my rights.
"A man who acts as his own lawyer has a fool for a client." - Ben Franklin
I wish I was a tad more computer literate, I would like to post a picture of a fellow standing in a hole and shoveling dirt into the hole, and there by burying himself.
that my friend is what you are doing.
First you were speeding, and got a ticket, then it came out that you had an expired licence. Finally you dont bother showing up in court to pay or fight the ticket?
Yet your upset that they didn't provide you with a copy of the oath they took, and thats the excuse your going to use when you are finally arrested to 3 seperate violations.
You got balls, I give you that, but I sure would like to be in the court when you finally get to make your argument.
I got a fealing that you took a $50/$100. ticket and managed to push that number up considerably.
All I can say is Fod bless ya, and good luck. I think your going to need it.
Has maybe a prescription expired, as well as your driver's license?
I don't know what job you have, or how you spend your free time, or what your girlfriend is like, but I have to think that there's SOMETHING you'd rather be doing than spending hours in traffic court and a few nights in jail. And the course you're on is going to send you right to those places. And it's going to land you a hefty bunch of fines.
So far as I've been able to see, you originally could have fixed all of this for $225 and a postage stamp. I imagine you've now added another $100 for not paying up quickly. If you want to fight this, a decent lawyer is going to charge you $325 AN HOUR. And in that first hour he's going to tell you to pay the fines and get on with your life. So now you're up to $650 to fix the problem.
http://www.dmv.org/pa-pennsylvania/paying-tickets.php
Bear in mind that when you pay a traffic ticket, you must plead guilty. You always have the option to fight the ticket in court if a guilty plea isn't acceptable to you. To do so, appear in the court listed on your ticket on the date and time shown for an arraignment. You will have the opportunity to plead innocent and be scheduled for a trial.
If you neither pay the fine by the deadline displayed on your ticket, nor appear in court on the date specified, the traditional judicial response is to issue a bench warrant for your arrest for failure to appear.
We used to phone people that FTA at home, try to get them to go see the judge and settle the case. I know of folks being picked up at home, work and on the road.
By now your expired license is probably revoked for FTA. Next time you get stopped, if you don't take care of it now, you will find out.
following some of this chat. I don't agree, he is not an idiot. It sounds like some attorney in his area convinced a magistrate (JP or minor judiciary) that his client was not guilty because the officer couldn't prove he was a cop, other than standing there in uniform. The magistrate may have known the attorney or the violator and figured what the H@ll and dismissed the citation. Now that attorney/magistrate has opened that can of worms and Ruger has picked up on it. MOST local cops wear a uniform complete with a badge. In some cases the local municipality decides what constitutes a uniform. I had an uncle that was on a boro councile and decided the cops uniform could be a shirt with the boro patch and a ball cap, it's still that way as far as I know. State cops in PA have a uniform with identifing patch but DO NOT WEAR A BADGE. There was a push a few years ago were some attorneys fought citations because the Statie got out of the car and did not wear his hat while giving out a citation. It didn't take long for the President Judge to tell the magistrates , "if your going to throw out a citation for some bulls * reason, just do it, don't make case law"
As to Ruger, if the issuing cop, and I hate that word cop, POLICEMAN doesn't come around in a week or two it's because he's waiting for the certified copy of his driving record to be returned. There are several different sections under Operation of Vehicle with a suspended license Ruger could be charged with. It even matters how long it was expired, was it because of an insurance cancelation ? it goes on and on.
It boils down to yes SOMEONE, even a constable, will be around to discuss the fact the citation(s) have not been responded to. Maybe Ruger just needs a warm place to stay this winter. 3 hots and a cot.
Ahhhhh, the arrogrance of youth. Get over it son, driving a car is not a right in any state. It is regulated by a book about 2 inches with hundreds of laws. You violated a couple of them and now it is time to pay the piper.
I have held jobs that required me to take an oath of office. A signed order was placed in my personnel file. It is not available for the general public to view. Why on earth would one question such a thing. It is certainly not a defense in traffic arrest.
If I would have encountered you with this silly defense about demanding my oath (which no cop carries around with them), and your license is expired. I would first wonder silently if your law degree came from a Wheaties or Cherrios box.
Bingo, you are now an unlicensed driver under Calif law, sec 12500a CVC. That is a "may take" section meaning its the officers discretion to take you to jail if he/she wishes. You would be going with me and your car impounded, which YOU pay for. You can demand the Chief bring a copy of the oath administered during swearing-in ceremonies, but he would just laugh.
The course that most police contacts take is determined, in very large part, by the attitude of the person stopped. This means you, yes you Ruger, have a lot of influence with regard to how smoothly or miserably things will flow. When you come up with this crap about oaths of office, you can be assured the officer is going to do everything he can TO YOU not FOR YOU. Just some words of wisdom.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Oh heck. Just wait for the warrant to come out.
Yep, then he can go to court and argue that the "oath" was not up to date on its calibration[;)]
quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
And why would I pay the ticket? I have yet to be charged with a crime. All I got was a yellow piece of paper that said I was speeding. It didn't state the law that I broke.
PA Constitution, Article I, Section 9
"In all criminal prosecutions the accused hath a right to be heard by himself and his counsel, to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him, to be confronted with the witnesses against him... " etc etc etc.
The supreme court as ruled that the cop or the judge can't legally act as a prosecutor and a witness at the same time. Neither can act in a dual capacity. They know as well as I do that its not worth the money to pay for a prosecutor for an hour when were talking a couple hundred bucks.
But thats neither here nor there. I'm not going to even bother attending a hearing without them proving to me that they are legitimate.
It never ceases to amaze me, the extent to which some people will go to sidestep responsibility for being in the wrong. Just pay the ticket and don't speed.
I suspect you have rocks in your head. Seriously. Your defense is based on what we in the legal field call "Chicken Sh-t". On the off, off, off, off chance that there is any merit to what you are saying, I'm sure that whatever judge looking at this will find their violation, if it could be called that, to be de minimus, have them take the oath and make it retroactive.
Now, you will then have your sack nailed to the cross for all the BS that you put everyone through.
When I was half way through law school, on new years eve, I went to a party. I was sick, so I didn't have a drop to drink. I also, a few days earlier, cleaned my dad's car for him as a gift. I was driving his car, and was stopped next to a cop at about 2am. He shined the light in my car, and I gave him the dirtiest look I could muster. I just finished criminal law - I KNOW MY RIGHTS. He pulled me over, checked out the car, asked if I knew why he pulled me over. I said no. He said "your plates are expired". Dad's birthday was December. It was now January.
So, as my friend likes to say, "OJ wants his trial". You do that. Good luck.
I would love to have you speed through my city so I could have the pleasure of arresting you for SRO for unpaid citations. You could argue all you want about my oath but you would still come with me the easy way or the hard way.LOL
Found out today what I think this is about. Someplace in northern PA a local boro hired a person as a policeman, he may have been a policeman in another area but had not completed the paperwork to transfer to another boro. Immediately after being hired and before being "certified" for the boro he issued at least a citation(s) to a motorist. (appearently NOT Ruger) the motorist requested a hearing before the local magistrate and the magistrate thru out the charge due to the fact the "policeman" was not actually a "policeman" when he made the stop and issued the citation. Appearently the motorist that had been initally stopped told others so all of the "jail house lawyers" in that area figure that there home free if the policeman can't prove they are "certified or can't produce their oath."
If Ruger270man broke the law than he should be punished. With that said if what Ruger270man says about the oath thing being true than more power to him if he gets away without having to pay the ticket. Some laws are good, and some are bad, what are you going to do. Now good laws or bad need to be followed by everybody it doest matter if its a civilian, officer, or law enforcement agency.
Get over yourself. People like you are the reason people have no respect for a lawyer. They think they are above the law. Pay the ticket and move on. You were in the wrong, so pay up.
Dear Mr. Ruger....
You have managed to turn a small, insignificant, mundane incident into a case that will probably cost you a significant amount of money and perhaps result in jail time as well. You stated that "I know my rights." You obviously don't. Based on what you've revealed here, your best course of action would be to throw yourself on the mercy of the court and plead insanity. You will have all those who have read your posts here to corroborate your claim.
"The robe gives him away, then of course there is the name plate that says, Judge Yourgonnabeinjail."
If you thought that the officer was fake or you were not for sure, why did you pull over? He might have been fake? You submitted to his authority already! You knew he was a police officer (the lights, marked car, whichever reason that you pulled over) or you would not have submitted to his authority. Why didn't you just keep driving?
If you get arrested here, let me know, I will bring you some better food so you don't have to eat our slop all the time.
...This response is the Libertarian response/belief I believe, the "real or not real part". It's like if you recieve a ticket there is susposedly something you write in the signature space vs signing it, which susposedly gets you "off"...only works in the tales of die hard Libetarians.
A guy I knew was DEEP DEEP into this stuff, spent 30 YEARS in the middle of this type thing....speed limits were illegal, same for DL/Ins. etc., etc. Rick taught this stuff at free seminars etc. Rick spent a ton of money and jail time "showing" the "man" the error of their unconstittional ways.
quote:Originally posted by COLT
...This response is the Libertarian response/belief I believe, the "real or not real part". It's like if you recieve a ticket there is susposedly something you write in the signature space vs signing it, which susposedly gets you "off"...only works in the tales of die hard Libetarians.
A guy I knew was DEEP DEEP into this stuff, spent 30 YEARS in the middle of this type thing....speed limits were illegal, same for DL/Ins. etc., etc. Rick taught this stuff at free seminars etc. Rick spent a ton of money and jail time "showing" the "man" the error of their unconstittional ways.
...A warrant will be issued..luck...[;)]
I know a fella like that here. he flushed a career with the DOC down the tubes and has tied up a monumental amount of time to prove his point.
I'm still not sure what real, definable improvements he hopes to have wrought...
But I suspect that's not his concern.
People like this are far more concerned with being right than they are creating real improvements on those who have to pick up the tab for all the court time.
I knew a guy who preached that stuff. He said you were a sovereign citizen of your state, if you declared yourself to be so, and thus not subject to US law, like income tax law.
He gave seminars on this stuff.
Last I heard he was doing 14 months in a minimum security federal prison in Georgia.
I guess he was a sovereign citizen of his jail cell.
Comments
You want to ARGUE a SPEEDING TICKET, when you ALSO have an expired license.
Guilty as chargedddd.
Give up I dont think you are going to get any sympathy on this one
Good thing they didn't pat you down.
quote:Originally posted by bhale187
quote:Originally posted by ruger270man
The cop asked me if I was a lawyer. And then he rightfully assumed I wasn't signing the ticket without a lawyer being provided and present, seeing as when I asked him if I was being detained, he said yes.
So the next day I sent a registered letter asking for the Oaths of Office of the district judge and the cop, in accordance with the Open Records Act, Sunshine Act, etc etc.. stated the law, the whole 9 yards.
I never sent the ticket in within the "10 day allotment". I have yet to receive copies of the oaths or a subpoena for the summary offense.
I couldn't care less about the summary offense. But theyre starting to pi$$ me off by ignoring my request for public records, and without their oaths, they are impersonating a judge and an officer.
What is my next course of action? Should I go to the county sheriff?
get a lawyer, you're going to need one to fight that ticket [B)]
A lawyer? Sounds like a waste of money. I know my rights.
"A man who acts as his own lawyer has a fool for a client." - Ben Franklin
that my friend is what you are doing.
First you were speeding, and got a ticket, then it came out that you had an expired licence. Finally you dont bother showing up in court to pay or fight the ticket?
Yet your upset that they didn't provide you with a copy of the oath they took, and thats the excuse your going to use when you are finally arrested to 3 seperate violations.
You got balls, I give you that, but I sure would like to be in the court when you finally get to make your argument.
I got a fealing that you took a $50/$100. ticket and managed to push that number up considerably.
All I can say is Fod bless ya, and good luck. I think your going to need it.
Since this seems to be an intricately thought out defense, I'm going with crazy.
And what is your rationalization for the expired DL?
These are separate issues, and you are on the wrong side of the law.
I don't know what job you have, or how you spend your free time, or what your girlfriend is like, but I have to think that there's SOMETHING you'd rather be doing than spending hours in traffic court and a few nights in jail. And the course you're on is going to send you right to those places. And it's going to land you a hefty bunch of fines.
So far as I've been able to see, you originally could have fixed all of this for $225 and a postage stamp. I imagine you've now added another $100 for not paying up quickly. If you want to fight this, a decent lawyer is going to charge you $325 AN HOUR. And in that first hour he's going to tell you to pay the fines and get on with your life. So now you're up to $650 to fix the problem.
Don
Bear in mind that when you pay a traffic ticket, you must plead guilty. You always have the option to fight the ticket in court if a guilty plea isn't acceptable to you. To do so, appear in the court listed on your ticket on the date and time shown for an arraignment. You will have the opportunity to plead innocent and be scheduled for a trial.
If you neither pay the fine by the deadline displayed on your ticket, nor appear in court on the date specified, the traditional judicial response is to issue a bench warrant for your arrest for failure to appear.
We used to phone people that FTA at home, try to get them to go see the judge and settle the case. I know of folks being picked up at home, work and on the road.
By now your expired license is probably revoked for FTA. Next time you get stopped, if you don't take care of it now, you will find out.
Hope you enjoy your vacation time you set in jail.
This is just plain stupid!
As to Ruger, if the issuing cop, and I hate that word cop, POLICEMAN doesn't come around in a week or two it's because he's waiting for the certified copy of his driving record to be returned. There are several different sections under Operation of Vehicle with a suspended license Ruger could be charged with. It even matters how long it was expired, was it because of an insurance cancelation ? it goes on and on.
It boils down to yes SOMEONE, even a constable, will be around to discuss the fact the citation(s) have not been responded to. Maybe Ruger just needs a warm place to stay this winter. 3 hots and a cot.
I have held jobs that required me to take an oath of office. A signed order was placed in my personnel file. It is not available for the general public to view. Why on earth would one question such a thing. It is certainly not a defense in traffic arrest.
Bingo, you are now an unlicensed driver under Calif law, sec 12500a CVC. That is a "may take" section meaning its the officers discretion to take you to jail if he/she wishes. You would be going with me and your car impounded, which YOU pay for. You can demand the Chief bring a copy of the oath administered during swearing-in ceremonies, but he would just laugh.
The course that most police contacts take is determined, in very large part, by the attitude of the person stopped. This means you, yes you Ruger, have a lot of influence with regard to how smoothly or miserably things will flow. When you come up with this crap about oaths of office, you can be assured the officer is going to do everything he can TO YOU not FOR YOU. Just some words of wisdom.
Oh heck. Just wait for the warrant to come out.
Yep, then he can go to court and argue that the "oath" was not up to date on its calibration[;)]
And why would I pay the ticket? I have yet to be charged with a crime. All I got was a yellow piece of paper that said I was speeding. It didn't state the law that I broke.
PA Constitution, Article I, Section 9
"In all criminal prosecutions the accused hath a right to be heard by himself and his counsel, to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him, to be confronted with the witnesses against him... " etc etc etc.
The supreme court as ruled that the cop or the judge can't legally act as a prosecutor and a witness at the same time. Neither can act in a dual capacity. They know as well as I do that its not worth the money to pay for a prosecutor for an hour when were talking a couple hundred bucks.
But thats neither here nor there. I'm not going to even bother attending a hearing without them proving to me that they are legitimate.
It's not a "criminal prosecution".
Doug
The court system is not set up in your favor, I guarantee you that. They can make a $100 ticket into a $1000 one if you want.
Now, you will then have your sack nailed to the cross for all the BS that you put everyone through.
When I was half way through law school, on new years eve, I went to a party. I was sick, so I didn't have a drop to drink. I also, a few days earlier, cleaned my dad's car for him as a gift. I was driving his car, and was stopped next to a cop at about 2am. He shined the light in my car, and I gave him the dirtiest look I could muster. I just finished criminal law - I KNOW MY RIGHTS. He pulled me over, checked out the car, asked if I knew why he pulled me over. I said no. He said "your plates are expired". Dad's birthday was December. It was now January.
So, as my friend likes to say, "OJ wants his trial". You do that. Good luck.
In the words of a great American
"YOU CANT FIX STUPID"
Get over yourself. People like you are the reason people have no respect for a lawyer. They think they are above the law. Pay the ticket and move on. You were in the wrong, so pay up.
You have managed to turn a small, insignificant, mundane incident into a case that will probably cost you a significant amount of money and perhaps result in jail time as well. You stated that "I know my rights." You obviously don't. Based on what you've revealed here, your best course of action would be to throw yourself on the mercy of the court and plead insanity. You will have all those who have read your posts here to corroborate your claim.
"The robe gives him away, then of course there is the name plate that says, Judge Yourgonnabeinjail."
If you thought that the officer was fake or you were not for sure, why did you pull over? He might have been fake? You submitted to his authority already! You knew he was a police officer (the lights, marked car, whichever reason that you pulled over) or you would not have submitted to his authority. Why didn't you just keep driving?
If you get arrested here, let me know, I will bring you some better food so you don't have to eat our slop all the time.
Sorry though, we are out of snuff.[:o)]
[8D][:)][;)][:p]Do you think he got the point yet [:D]
He can't answer. Bubba is using the only jail computer right now...
quote:Originally posted by William81
[8D][:)][;)][:p]Do you think he got the point yet [:D]
He can't answer. Bubba is using the only jail computer right now...
Come to think of it, he hasn't posted since this thread...
A guy I knew was DEEP DEEP into this stuff, spent 30 YEARS in the middle of this type thing....speed limits were illegal, same for DL/Ins. etc., etc. Rick taught this stuff at free seminars etc. Rick spent a ton of money and jail time "showing" the "man" the error of their unconstittional ways.
...A warrant will be issued..luck...[;)]
...This response is the Libertarian response/belief I believe, the "real or not real part". It's like if you recieve a ticket there is susposedly something you write in the signature space vs signing it, which susposedly gets you "off"...only works in the tales of die hard Libetarians.
A guy I knew was DEEP DEEP into this stuff, spent 30 YEARS in the middle of this type thing....speed limits were illegal, same for DL/Ins. etc., etc. Rick taught this stuff at free seminars etc. Rick spent a ton of money and jail time "showing" the "man" the error of their unconstittional ways.
...A warrant will be issued..luck...[;)]
I know a fella like that here. he flushed a career with the DOC down the tubes and has tied up a monumental amount of time to prove his point.
I'm still not sure what real, definable improvements he hopes to have wrought...
But I suspect that's not his concern.
People like this are far more concerned with being right than they are creating real improvements on those who have to pick up the tab for all the court time.
LMFAO. That is funny stuff.
He gave seminars on this stuff.
Last I heard he was doing 14 months in a minimum security federal prison in Georgia.
I guess he was a sovereign citizen of his jail cell.