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Carry,... cocked & locked Y/N Why?

2

Comments

  • tapwatertapwater Member Posts: 10,335 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...Guess I'm the oddball. My Star PD is like a 1911, sans the grip safety. I rarely holster it, just IWB, small of back. I carry it at half cock, thumb safety on. Whatever mode of carry you choose, repetition will result in muscle memory. Glocks, on the other hand, go in a holster that covers the trigger. Just common sense there.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,404 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by JohnT
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    I don't see any issue with it. That is how it was designed to be carried.


    Nope. That's a myth. It wasn't designed to be carried that way...by Browning or anyone else.

    The manual safety wasn't Browning's idea. The first eight pistols that were submitted to the Ordnance Board didn't even have manual safeties. That part was added on request of the US Cavalry so that the mounted trooper could safely reholster the gun in order to free both hands up when he found himself tryin' to hang onto a frightened, unruly horse. Even in those ancient times, the boys understood that a
    man under stress is likely to forget to remove his finger from the trigger before jamming the piece into its holster...a point that Gaston Glock apparently either failed to consider, or chose to ignore.

    So...The thumb safety is there for reholstering...not carrying. The gun was designed so that it can be carried cocked and locked, but not specifically to be. It was designed to be carried in any one of several modes, at the choice of the owner. Even Condition zero is safe...or at least as safe as a loaded gun can be.

    Another point that will probably bring on howls of warning is the fact that the half-cock is a safety, and is clearly referenced as such in the 1910 patents by Browning himself, along with instruction on the technique for lowering the hammer to the safety position with one hand...which also addresses another "Never do" warning. So, if Browning had any intent at all on how to carry the pistol...which is doubtful...it was to carry it on half-cock. He utilized the captive half-cock on all his other exposed hammer guns...so there's at least strong evidence of it.
    As to that being a myth, I will direct you to the patent link above. You even contradict yourself here, stating that it was an optional method. So, either it was designed to be carried that way or it wasn't. The patent filed by JMB says it was.

    Now, you are correct about him not originally designing the gun with a safety. He added it at the request of the military like you say. Since then all of them have had a safety in which cocked and locked carry is not only possible, but part of the design intent as stated by JMB himself.

    I read it in the patent, but what do I know. JMB was probably lying or under duress when he wrote that. [:o)]


    Patent agent eh?

    You read the words (even if you didn't get the page No. correct) and you "walk away" with the understanding that a 1911 was DESIGNED to be carried C&L in ANYTHING other than a combat situation by soldiers for short (or long) periods of time? You appear to be neglecting military SOP which would cover when C&L was acceptable and it was far from 100% of the time.

    Example? MP/SP/AP carried the 1911A1 sidearm holstered, chamber empty, hammer down while on duty.


    I was going by the page number in the actual PDF document, so that appears to be the conflict there.
    The bottom line is, either it's designed to be carried that way, or it isn't. JMB said that it is designed to be carried that way without specifying any of the conditions you're mentioning.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,404 ******
    edited November -1
    Here is the text, you decide:
    quote:
    Heretofore pistols of this class were provided
    with automatic safety devices which
    made it impossible to fire one or several
    shots unless a cartridge was in the barrel,
    a charged magazine in the grip and all
    parts were in the proper closed and locked
    condition, the hammer cocked and the grip
    properly grasped to hold the pistol in the
    firing position. If, with the ?pistol thus
    made ready for instant use, the occasion for
    firing or for continued firing had passed,
    and it was desired to make the pistol temporarily
    safe for carrying, it was necessary
    to lower the hammer to the safety position,
    and special means were provided for enabling
    the lowering of the hammer to be
    performed, if necessary, by the use of only
    the hand holding the pistol. Experience,
    however, has shown that the exigencies of
    active military service make it at times necessary
    that the pistol be carried for a longer
    or shorter time with a loaded cartridge in
    the barrel, a charged magazine in its seat
    and with the hammer cocked, so as to still
    remain ready for instantly firing a maximum
    number of shots without requiring any
    initial movement, except the pulling of the
    trigger. At the same time, it is as necessary
    that the pistol can be made safe to positively
    prevent its accidental discharge while
    being so carried. For fulfilling, as nearly as
    possible, these necessary but contradictory ?
    requirements, an additional manually op-erated
    combined slide-lock and hammer
    lock of novel construction and with addi-
    tional functions has been provided on the
    pistol, which serves to at will lock the
    5 breech-slide and the firing mechanism
    make the pistol positively safe against dis-
    charge though a cartridge is in the chamber
    and the hammer is cocked...

    There is more about this later:

    quote:The hammer is locked independently of its sup-
    port by the sear, so that even under violent
    blows against the exposed part of the ham-
    mer, which might break the point of the
    sear, the hammer cannot move.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • fishkiller41fishkiller41 Member Posts: 50,608
    edited November -1
    If the finger is kept OFF the trigger,until ready to fire,what real difference does it make?
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:The hammer is locked independently of its sup-
    port by the sear, so that even under violent
    blows against the exposed part of the ham-
    mer, which might break the point of the
    sear, the hammer cannot move.

    And that is utterly wrong. Sorry. The safety doesn't block the hammer. It only blocks the sear. That was written by someone who doesn't understand how the gun functions. If the sear were to shatter into dust with the safety applied...the hammer would fall and it would wipe the safety off as surely as if you'd done it with your thumb. The half-cock notch will arrest it, of course...assuming that the trigger isn't pulled...but the hammer will fall.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,404 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by JohnT
    quote:The hammer is locked independently of its sup-
    port by the sear, so that even under violent
    blows against the exposed part of the ham-
    mer, which might break the point of the
    sear, the hammer cannot move.

    And that is utterly wrong. Sorry. The safety doesn't block the hammer. It only blocks the sear. That was written by someone who doesn't understand how the gun functions. If the sear were to shatter into dust with the safety applied...the hammer would fall and it would wipe the safety off as surely as if you'd done it with your thumb. The half-cock notch will arrest it, of course...assuming that the trigger isn't pulled...but the hammer will fall.
    Take it up with JMB... it's his patent. Of course, sometimes things are written up in a patent, and later the design changes.[:I]
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tapwater...The Star looks a little like the 1911, and functions similarly...but unlike the 1911, it can't be carried in Condition 2. With the hammer full forward, the firing pin will reach the primer in a chambered round unless there's a serious headspace issue...and probably even then.

    Also unlike the 1911, the Star's manual safety actively blocks the hammer and lifts it off the sear.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Take it up with JMB... it's his patent. Of course, sometimes things are written up in a patent, and later the design changes.

    You can put it to the test if you'd like. Assemble the gun without the sear and disconnect...hold the hammer in the cocked position and engage the safety...then let go of the hammer and watch the safety drop. But, hey. I've only been wrenchin' on these things for 46 years. What do I know?

    Incidentally...If you're in the area in or around Lexington, NC...I hold a free 1911 workshop about once a month. You should come to one. Standing invitation.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,404 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by JohnT
    quote:Take it up with JMB... it's his patent. Of course, sometimes things are written up in a patent, and later the design changes.

    You can put it to the test if you'd like. Assemble the gun without the sear and disconnect...hold the hammer in the cocked position and engage the safety...then let go of the hammer and watch the safety drop. But, hey. I've only been wrenchin' on these things for 46 years. What do I know?

    Incidentally...If you're in the area in or around Lexington, NC...I hold a free 1911 workshop about once a month. You should come to one. Standing invitation.
    Put what to the test exactly? You're arguing with me about what someone else wrote. These are not my words! Where did I ever say that's how it works? Indeed, I wrote the opposite.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm sorry. I thought you were using this:

    quote:The hammer is locked independently of its sup-
    port by the sear,

    To back up the assertion that the gun was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

    Mea cupla...but you can still attend one of the workshops. I usually have about six here in order to minimize confusion and maximize individual focus on any questions that come up.

    Just for the record, I'm not arguing against cocked and locked any more than I'm arguing for either of the other conditions of carry. I'm only arguing that the gun's design provides an option, to be selected by the user according to real or perceived need. Foot patrol on Chicago's waterfront, where a split second can determine who lives or dies...C-1 all the way. Rock climbing or rapelling...maybe not.
  • mrseatlemrseatle Member Posts: 15,467 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,404 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk
    This discussion never ceases to crack me up! The bravado of the 1911A1 being carried C&L is just an endless source of amusement. Sometimes I wonder if some on here actually want someone to be unnecessarily injured or killed.

    I'd be willing to bet if the chips were down 90% of the C&L advocates, faced with a true life/death high stress situation, would simply soil themselves, right before they shot themselves in the leg with their `cocked and locked 1911'. Until then they'll be coerced and taunted by others until they actually believe it's the correct gun and method of carry themselves. Then they'll sit around and kibitz with all the other Ida's, Coulda's and Woulda's on some internet forum until they feel good about their decision.

    The bottom line is no one can predict how they will react in a true life or death situation. Statistics have proven this a million times over. The notion that a person is going to be of such clear mind that one millisecond will be the difference between life and death is absurd. How long did the situation take? How many shots were fired? How many shots did you fire? What color shirt was the suspect wearing?

    Ninety five percent of the answers to these basic questions cannot be recalled after an incident takes place. What makes you think you'll remember (in the heat of the moment) to keep your finger off the trigger when you draw your firearm as someone is shooting at you (or when your trembling hand re-holsters that pistol)? Facts are, you probably won't, and you'll be lucky if no one else, including yourself, is injured as a result.

    Carry whatever you want, in whatever condition you want, but advocating (on a public forum) that anyone who carries a 1911A1 should do so in a C&L condition because "that's the way it was designed to be carried" is foolish and encourages potentially reckless behavior.



    well, since a person is to treat every firearm as if it's in condition 0 at all times, such a recommendation seems more than reasonable.

    Gun safety is not some lever or toggle on a gun, it's between your ears.[;)]
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Carry whatever you want, in whatever condition you want, but advocating (on a public forum) that anyone who carries a 1911A1 should do so in a C&L condition because "that's the way it was designed to be carried" is foolish and encourages potentially reckless behavior.

    I don't know why you'd consider it to be reckless. The gun was designed so that it's safe to carry that way...or at least as safe as a loaded gun can be. It can actually be carried cocked and unlocked, and still be no less safe than Condition One. It still requires being held in a firing grip, and it still requires a trigger pull in order to fire.

    Of course, Condition 2 is more safe, and Condition 3 is the safest...but sometimes safety has to take a back seat to the situation and the risk. If safety is the only concern, just don't carry a gun period. We don't carry them because they're safe. We carry them because they're dangerous.

    But, safety? Like the man said:

    Safe? It's not safe! It's a gun!"
  • OLDCOPOLDCOP Member Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Cocked and Locked? Yes! Also my shoulder rig has a strap that fits between the cocked hammer and the frame, so that is a 4th "safety?" Carrying with the hammer down won't work with my rig as the strap won't snap shut.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Can't argue with that point, Clay. Stress is a funny thing. Been there/done that. That's why I don't do 3.5 pound trigger jobs for carry or duty guns. 5 pounds is about as low as I go, and prefer 5.5-6 pounds with a rollout break for mine. As long as it's smooth and clean, it's not a hindrance.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk
    This discussion never ceases to crack me up! The bravado of the 1911A1 being carried C&L is just an endless source of amusement. Sometimes I wonder if some on here actually want someone to be unnecessarily injured or killed.

    I'd be willing to bet if the chips were down 90% of the C&L advocates, faced with a true life/death high stress situation, would simply soil themselves, right before they shot themselves in the leg with their `cocked and locked 1911'. Until then they'll be coerced and taunted by others until they actually believe it's the correct gun and method of carry themselves. Then they'll sit around and kibitz with all the other Ida's, Coulda's and Woulda's on some internet forum until they feel good about their decision.

    The bottom line is no one can predict how they will react in a true life or death situation. Statistics have proven this a million times over. The notion that a person is going to be of such clear mind that one millisecond will be the difference between life and death is absurd. How long did the situation take? How many shots were fired? How many shots did you fire? What color shirt was the suspect wearing?

    Ninety five percent of the answers to these basic questions cannot be recalled after an incident takes place. What makes you think you'll remember (in the heat of the moment) to keep your finger off the trigger when you draw your firearm as someone is shooting at you (or when your trembling hand re-holsters that pistol)? Facts are, you probably won't, and you'll be lucky if no one else, including yourself, is injured as a result.

    Carry whatever you want, in whatever condition you want, but advocating (on a public forum) that anyone who carries a 1911A1 should do so in a C&L condition because "that's the way it was designed to be carried" is foolish and encourages potentially reckless behavior.



    Holy crap!

    All the past years of C&L 1911 carry on duty and I now find that I am probably dangerous and reckless.

    Hell, I am seriously reconsidering my current continuing carry of a C&L 1911 for everyday duty use.

    Glad I haven't shot anyone in training also, since live-fire training and regular quals for me, are with a C&L 1911.

    Damn good thing that I wasn't carrying a C&L 1911 all the many, many times that I was at in-progress and high stress calls where my duty gun was shucked and pointed at people.....oh, wait, I WAS carrying a C&L 1911 at those times.[8)][:0]
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk

    Carry whatever you want, in whatever condition you want, but advocating (on a public forum) that anyone who carries a 1911A1 should do so in a C&L condition because "that's the way it was designed to be carried" is foolish and encourages potentially reckless behavior.


    FCD, a quick question: (and please don't take it as an attack, as it certainly isn't meant that way)

    Do you consider the 1911 to be an unsafe pistol for CCW? Or is it just the "cocked and locked" aspect?

    My usual carry gun (in all honesty, it probably leaves the house once a month) is a S&W 38 hammerless revolver.

    Firing that gun requires nothing more than a pull of the (fairly heavy) trigger.

    A cocked and locked 1911, on the other hand, requires the thumb safety to be released as well as the grip safety, before the trigger can be pulled.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    496...[:D]

    Just for the record, I don't carry a 1911 all that much any more, but when I do...it's Cocked and Locked. Back in my younger, more agile days when I was out in the wilds...it was most often in Condition 2 in a flap holster. These days, I'm as likely to be carrying a single-action revolver as a 1911, depending on where I am and where I intend to go...and I don't go very much any more. If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

    I don't carry spare magazines because I don't intend to become involved in a running gun fight and I don't intend to maneuver and flank the bad guys. That's an excellent way to get shot all to Helen Gone. I don't heal up well any more.

    The simple truth is that...as private citizens not working in a law enforcement capacity...very few of us even need to carry a gun. We carry one because we can and because it comforts us and because it's better to have and not need than vice-versa...but a real or defined need just isn't part of the program. In that light, a 5-shot snub-nosed .38 revolver will probably get you home alive. If it doesn't, you're in over your head anyway, and nothing short of the will of God will be of any help.

    Like my salty old pappy told me: "If you feel like you need to carry a gun to go to that place...don't go there."
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by JohnT
    496...[:D]

    Just for the record, I don't carry a 1911 all that much any more, but when I do...it's Cocked and Locked. Back in my younger, more agile days when I was out in the wilds...it was most often in Condition 2 in a flap holster. These days, I'm as likely to be carrying a single-action revolver as a 1911, depending on where I am and where I intend to go...and I don't go very much any more. If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

    I don't carry spare magazines because I don't intend to become involved in a running gun fight and I don't intend to maneuver and flank the bad guys. That's an excellent way to get shot all to Helen Gone. I don't heal up well any more.

    The simple truth is that...as private citizens not working in a law enforcement capacity...very few of us even need to carry a gun. We carry one because we can and because it comforts us and because it's better to have and not need than vice-versa...but a real or defined need just isn't part of the program. In that light, a 5-shot snub-nosed .38 revolver will probably get you home alive. If it doesn't, you're in over your head anyway, and nothing short of the will of God will be of any help.

    Like my salty old pappy told me: "If you feel like you need to carry a gun to go to that place...don't go there."
    [:)][:)][:)]
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by JohnT

    Like my salty old pappy told me: "If you feel like you need to carry a gun to go to that place...don't go there."


    words to live by [:)]
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You likely wont have time or two hands available to rack the slide and maybe even the manual safety.
  • joshmb1982joshmb1982 Member Posts: 8,228 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    what is the problem with carrying whatever pistol with the hammer down? It seems to me that in the stressful situation of a self defense shooting, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a single action or double action trigger pull anyway. Where as if you carry it cocked and locked youve now got to remember to turn the safety off or your dead. Just leave the hammer down and the gun off safe and be done with it. My fnp-9 doesnt have a safety anyway. if i left that cocked while carrying it id shoot myself in the * just sticking the damn thing in the holster.

    crap now i feel like an idiot. IS the 1911 a single action only pistol? i dont think ive ever handled one so im not sure.
  • redneckandyredneckandy Member Posts: 9,714 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ya'll have fun with this argument. I'll stick with my H&K P7.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Clay, I agree with the points about stress, but with a cocked pistol, the risk concern is more in holding someone at gunpoint rather than in the actual fight itself. If you think about it, DA/SA pistols are all SA after the first shot. It's mostly a matter of familiarity with the gun, and lots of trigger time under conditions that are realistic as you can make them. It's been said that the 1911 isn't the gun for the occasional shooter...and I have to agree. That's what DA revolvers are for. For the people who are willing to put in the time and effort to know the gun...the 1911 will do nicely.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:green text or not, have you ever been in a gunfight with that C&L pistol?

    I am sure that you are way more qualified to carry in that condition than I am, but do you dispute the fundametals of what I am saying, Captain?

    For the record, I'm actually pretty well qualified, and believe I could manage all my trigger management...but do you believe that for all of your officers?

    That said, I'm not chancing it. Captain, as a lead officer, is this how you instruct your officers?

    In the end, I'm not going to carry in that condition. While supported, and John Moses Browing designed, I believe the risk to be not acceptable.

    That said, I don't carry a 1911a1. I could, but I don't. It's a fine (fabulous even) firearm; I own several, but I don't carry them.

    Honestly, Captain...you know what I'm talking about.

    P.S. I'd much rather shoot the bad guy as opposed to the wrong guy!Yes.

    Yes, I expect so and yes, I dispute the fundamentals of what you are saying.

    Yes, most anyone can properly carry and deploy a 1911 given a modicum of common sense and an understanding of the firearm.

    Is what how I instruct my officers?

    There is not any inherent risk in carrying a C&L 1911. The gun's current design and the well established and basic firearms safety rules dictate that a C&L 1911 is perfectly safe to carry, police or civilian.

    I do in fact know exactly what you are talking about. It is an unreasonable fear of something that either you do not fully understand, or you have, for some reason, bought into this persistent 'urban-legend' myth about dangerous 1911 carry.

    I meet people in and out of police work frequently who display the same ignorance and the same non-grounded fears.

    **Note that I referred to ignorance and not to stupidity. There is a distinct difference.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    On guns and gunfightin' and gunfighters...

    I see these guys walkin' around armed to the teeth with extra magazines and a hideout backup and a foldin' fightin' knife...whatever that is...and I wonder how much of that stuff is actually gonna be a factor in the outcome of a real fight.

    My extra salty old grandpappy...born and raised in Harlan, Ky less than 10 years after the 1873 SAA was invented...carried one in .44WCF caliber pretty much 'til the day he died. When he got too old to get around, it was within reach. If you knew the man...if he was dressed...two things were guaranteed. A Stetson hat and that Colt.

    He was wicked with the Colt and he used the hat for a diversion when he did the job of Deputy Constable in Benham during the 30s...when that area earned the name "Bloody Harlan." He'd flap the hat once, and you were lookin' at the wrong end of that gun before you could do anything about it.

    Even back then...just shy of his 90th year...some high-speed/low-drag type mentioned that it was too slow to reload. Grandpap never missed a beat. He looked up with those still clear blue eyes and said:

    "Well, young feller, I got it figgered like this. If I live long enough to * that gun empty, I reckon I'll have all the time in the world to reload it."

    That's a true story.
  • Wyatt EarpWyatt Earp Member Posts: 5,871
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by v35
    You likely wont have time or two hands available to rack the slide and maybe even the manual safety.


    I think this is where the argument loses a lot of converts, because that just doesn't seem factual. I'm all for carrying C&L, and I've gone to a lot of extra effort to feel safe(r) doing so, but I just don't buy into that theory that says carrying without 1 in the chamber is like not carryiong at all...or that "You likely wont have time or two hands available to rack the slide and maybe even the manual safety."

    And of all the hundreds of shoot-em-up stories I've read, I can only think of 2 or 3 where the good guy had 1 hand rendered unusable. The chances of that happening seem pretty remote to me.

    Just from an anecdotal perspective, I try to run through my head all the situations I've read about recently, or saw on TV, and the vast majority of them would have allowed time to rack the slide, providingthat even a fundamental level of situational awareness was utilized.

    Again, I'm pro-C&L, I just think too many of us neglect other practices that are equally important, such as good situation awareness.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wyatt...I can agree to a point. Situational awareness is our first line of defense...but it's still a good idea to maintain the ability to bring the gun to the fight with one hand.

    Many seem to believe that their moment of truth will be a firefight that starts on cue, with both parties blazing away at each other across an unknown distance. More likely that they'll be in the dark, backpedaling and clawing at the gun with one hand while fending off a knife or bludgeon with the other...and the shot will come at powder burn distance...if not actually with the muzzle in contact.

    Plus, there's always that ringer...the seasoned street fighter who is so adept at his trade that the first clue that you're under attack will come at about the same time your head hits the pavement, or when the blade parts skin. At that point, it'll be pretty desparate, and you won't have the luxury of busying one hand to chamber a round.

    This is one reason that I like double-action revolvers for personal defense...even though I'm a lifelong 1911 owner/shooter/wrench and feel that it's probably the best fighting pistol to ever come down the pike.
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by joshmb1982

    crap now i feel like an idiot. IS the 1911 a single action only pistol? i dont think ive ever handled one so im not sure.


    Most are single action only, but there are some double actions out there (Para's LDA being the first to come to my mind)

    Carrying with the hammer down is certainly possible, but only if you're willing to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber....which to me carries a greater risk of a AD/ND than carried C&L.

    The alternative is to carry with nothing in the chamber (which is how I carry my glock, on the rare occasions I've carried it)
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Carrying with the hammer down is certainly possible, but only if you're willing to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber....which to me carries a greater risk of a AD/ND than carried C&L.

    Any fiddling with a loaded gun carries an element of risk, but lowering a hammer on a hot chamber has been done for over a century. The trick is in knowing how and being careful. Since the exercise isn't normally something that's done in a rush...being careful isn't a problem. Not knowing how can be.

    In the 1910 patent...in the same paragraph in which Browning
    refers to the half-cock as a safety position...he describes the proper method for decocking the pistol with one hand...and it works. The opposing overhand pinch method works even better, and if the pistol is equipped with an original design wide-spur hammer with the sharp corners forward...it's damn near fool-proof.

    Basically, you have to get control of the hammer before touching the trigger. Trying to pull the trigger and catch the hammer is a recipe for failure. It goes without saying that the muzzle shouldn't be pointed at anything important...including the big screen TV and your own feet. Take your time and be careful. It'll be ai'ght.

    Speaking of lowering hammers...contrary to popular myth, it's possible to carry an original 1873 and faithful clones with 6 loaded chambers and the hammer down. It should only be used when...as JB Books put it: "If your insides tell ya to load six, then load six." but it can be done safely.

    No. Not on the half or quarter-cock notch. Simply lower the hammer so that the hammer nose...firing pin...rests between cartridge case rims. It becomes trapped and the cylinder won't turn without force, and a blow to the hammer won't fire the gun. While dropping it on the hammer can damage the nose...it won't render the gun inoperable unless dropped from a greater height than waist level, and thus, all six can be loaded in a foreseen emergency, and returned to a five-shooter when the situation has passed or has been resolved. Applies only to revolvers chambered in .45 Colt and .44 and .38 WCF. Smaller rim diameters don't capture and hold the hammer nose as solidly.
  • Wyatt EarpWyatt Earp Member Posts: 5,871
    edited November -1
    quote:

    Plus, there's always that ringer...the seasoned street fighter who is so adept at his trade that the first clue that you're under attack will come at about the same time your head hits the pavement, or when the blade parts skin. At that point, it'll be pretty desparate, and you won't have the luxury of busying one hand to chamber a round.



    Not to pick nits but if you find yourself in that situation (already knocked down by a seasoned fighter) against a guy intent on killing you, you're probably dead. A seasoned fighter knows to follow up that first dazing punch with kicks to your face or stomp on your neck, etc while you're on the ground. Most of them know the magic formula that says you can whip a much tougher opponent (or an armed one) if you can get that first dazing blow in and immediately follow up with multiple strikes while they're easy and the guy can't defend himself cause his eyes won't focus and he's dizzy.

    That said, your point is well-taken.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wyatt...Absolutely. The point was...that if your man is one of those...it's a matter of luck if you survive, much less win, and it won't matter much how much hardware you were carryin' or how.

    I hear a lot of bravado about what this guy or that guy would do if somebody pulls a knife. A little reality check is in order. If you see the knife, you're either dealin' with an idiot or an amateur. The experienced blade man won't let you see it. It'll be small enough to hide in the palm of his hand, and it'll be razor sharp...and he'll cut you to ribbons in less time that it takes to say it. If he means to cut you, you're gonna get cut.
  • joshmb1982joshmb1982 Member Posts: 8,228 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
    quote:Originally posted by joshmb1982

    crap now i feel like an idiot. IS the 1911 a single action only pistol? i dont think ive ever handled one so im not sure.


    Most are single action only, but there are some double actions out there (Para's LDA being the first to come to my mind)

    Carrying with the hammer down is certainly possible, but only if you're willing to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber....which to me carries a greater risk of a AD/ND than carried C&L.

    The alternative is to carry with nothing in the chamber (which is how I carry my glock, on the rare occasions I've carried it)

    there isnt a de-cocking lever??
  • Rack OpsRack Ops Member Posts: 18,596 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by joshmb1982

    there isnt a de-cocking lever??


    Not on any single action 1911 that I'm aware of.
  • Irish 8802Irish 8802 Member Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I love this forum!!! I ask one question and it is off and running,different interpertations of the same,everyone with their own preconcieved ideas.What a great cross section of opinions.Thanks,for your input.BTW,,Will carry C/L.Best to all of you.Thanks.John.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Irish 8802
    I love this forum!!! I ask one question and it is off and running,different interpertations of the same,everyone with their own preconcieved ideas.What a great cross section of opinions.Thanks,for your input.BTW,,Will carry C/L.Best to all of you.Thanks.John.
    [:)][;)]
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Everyone seems to ignore the 1911 grip safety as being a valid safety.
    Also, the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin so lowering the hammer fully forward past the half cock notch makes it safer than sitting in the half cock notch.
    Lowering the hammer for carrying isn't a great idea being it's awkward
    to cock since your grip on the pistol is compromised.
  • hk-91hk-91 Member Posts: 10,050
    edited November -1
    To me its to each his own. It would depend on what i was carring at the time and when and were it was. In summer time i carry a 9mm double action only and i carry it with one in the chamber half the time. Just depending on what i'm doing at the time. But alway carring, some times i just dont feel safe with one in the chamber. but if i carry a empty chamber its in a houlster that is very easy to access.
  • Wyatt EarpWyatt Earp Member Posts: 5,871
    edited November -1
    I think the question itself is a misnomer. When I was new to carrying, it wasn't the "carry" part that concerned me about having a negligent discharge. Not much chance of that happening while it's holstered. I was concerned about holstering and unholstering at least twice a day and the exposure to inadvertantly hanging the trigger on something during that process.

    As time went by and I established habits, I realized that hanging my trigger on something was entirely up to me and not very likely with the establishment of good habits, i.e., doing the process exactly the same every day.
  • JohnTJohnT Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Lowering the hammer for carrying isn't a great idea being it's awkward to cock since your grip on the pistol is compromised.

    Not if you cock the pistol before aquiring a full grip while it's still in the holster. Not as fast as a cocked and locked presentation, but not all that much slower with a little practice. Just don't tickle the trigger 'til the gun is in front of you.

    quote:I was concerned about holstering and unholstering at least twice a day and the exposure to inadvertantly hanging the trigger on something during that process.

    That's why the thumb safety was added back in nineteen-aught-ten...for reholstering the piece without shooting oneself in the foot.
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