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When I was carrying
an officers model
I never kept one in
the pipe.I don't
with my glock either.
I did carry my 1911 with
the hammer back tho, just
no round in the chamber.
I carry a Seacamp with no external safety. Would hate for this thing to go off in my pocket when I'm fishing around for my car keys. I know. Carry keys in other pocket.
Any fiddling with a loaded gun carries an element of risk, but lowering a hammer on a hot chamber has been done for over a century. The trick is in knowing how and being careful.
Lots of things have been done for a long time, but aren't something I'd do or recommend for others.
Maybe its a mental block caused by having "keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire" beat into my head so many years ago.
Its obvious you know what you're talking about, and I'm sure you know far more about the 1911 platform than I do, but lower the hammer on a hot round, to me, seems to be a risky act (even with practice and care, there is always the element of chance) for no apparent gain.
BTW, welcome to the forums. Hope you stick around [:)]
quote:seems to be a risky act (even with practice and care, there is always the element of chance) for no apparent gain.
It is more risky...but it's been done for a couple hundred years.
Hunting with a Model 94 Winchester...your buck steps out into a clearing. You cock the hammer quietly so as not to * him. He steps back into the trees and you lose the shot. What do you do? Cycle the rifle and eject all live rounds...or lower the hammer carefully?
Put a double-action revolver in that same situation. You can't swing the cylinder out with the hammer cocked. What do you do? Fire the round or lower the hammer?
Sometimes, carrying an autopistol with th hammer down has its advantages. It offers the lockwork more protection from mud and debris when navigating rough territory, and it better protects the hammer from side blows because on most of them...the hammer is supported on both sides by the recess it fits into in the slide.
Admittedly, these are special circumstances, and not ones that everybody finds themselves in very often...but they are valid reasons for Condition Two...and still allows you to bring the pistol into play with one hand. Basically a risk evaluation. Is there a greater chance that you'll need the gun in one second than there is for the gun to be damaged or plugged up with crud? If it's the latter...Condition Two is valid. Paramount that the gun works if needed. If it's been rendered inoperable, it won't matter much how fast you can get it in your hand and wipe the safety off.
Bottom line: We weigh the risks and roll the dice.
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Out of curiosity, what was the recommended method of carry? I'm assuming loaded mag w/ empty chamber.
quote:Originally posted by JohnT
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
Apparently Clawson isn't alone in thinking that it wasn't designed for C&L carry. JMB didn't know what he was writing!
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by JohnT
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
Apparently Clawson isn't alone in thinking that it wasn't designed for C&L carry. JMB didn't know what he was writing!
You are ignoring the fact that the pistol was designed for the military and each piece of equipment in the military has a SOP or standard operating procedure. Talk to some vets that actually carried a 1911A1 as a side arm and you will learn that SOP was hammer down on an empty chamber. C&L was intended for short (or long??) periods of time AFTER the pistol was used as a side arm.
Mechanical safeties are a not 100% guaranty, nothing mechanical is.
JMB's Patients don't claim the pistol can be carried this way 100% of the time. He's pretty clear about the intent.
I am a vet that carried the 1911...off the record, of course. As an 0311, I wasn't authorized, but I got one anyway.
Being that Clawson is one of the preminient historians, and being that the addendum came about in 1913...which means that the people who wrote it had the input from the people who specified the thumb safety which means that they spoke directly with John Browning...I'd say that their statement is closer to factual. Added to the fact that the thumb safety wasn't even Browning's idea, and he added it at the request of the US Cavalry...he couldn't have intended for the gun to be carried cocked and locked.
Still in doubt? Here's a picture of one of eight pistols that Browning submitted for evaluation. It's one of the only two remaining original 1910 prototypes. The Ordnance Department sent them back with the request for a manual slide locking safety because the cavalry demanded one. Six were retrofitted and returned, and the rest is history. This one is in Clawson's private collection. The other one is in Colt's museum.
I know that many people want very badly to believe in the mantra;
"Cocked and locked! The way JMB intended!"
But the facts and the history just don't support it.
Model of 1910 photo courtesy of Charles W. Clawson.
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by JohnT
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
Apparently Clawson isn't alone in thinking that it wasn't designed for C&L carry. JMB didn't know what he was writing!
You are ignoring the fact that the pistol was designed for the military and each piece of equipment in the military has a SOP or standard operating procedure. Talk to some vets that actually carried a 1911A1 as a side arm and you will learn that SOP was hammer down on an empty chamber. C&L was intended for short (or long??) periods of time AFTER the pistol was used as a side arm.
Mechanical safeties are a not 100% guaranty, nothing mechanical is.
JMB's Patients don't claim the pistol can be carried this way 100% of the time. He's pretty clear about the intent.
Again, either it was designed to be carried that way or not. JMB says it was.
I couldn't care less what SOP was for the military. The gun was, in fact, designed to be carried in a C&L condition. If SOP was otherwise would that magically change how the gun was designed?
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by dragfan66
I carry my Kahr CW9 (double action only), with one in the pipe, ready to go. I know it is going to pull up as I fire it, so I am ready. Practice, practice, practice.
I have a CW9 and asked Kahr about carrying with a round chambered and this is their response.
Our firearms are designed to and are completely safe to be carried in a +1 loaded configuration (loaded magazine +1 in the chamber). I hope this information helps.
Sincerely,
Jay
There's no argument that the gun was designed so that it CAN be carried cocked and locked. It just wasn't designed specifically TO be carried cocked and locked. The intent was to provide any of four states of readiness. Condition 1...2...3...and at half-cock...as the owner chooses, as dictated by need or desire.
There's also no argument on my part that the fastest, most advantageous...most tactical way to carry it is cocked and locked. Tactical.
The points that I've tried to make are technical...not tactical. I've explained the function of the gun and outlined the options. What you...generically...do with the information is entirely up to you.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Again, either it was designed to be carried that way or not. JMB says it was.
I couldn't care less what SOP was for the military. The gun was, in fact, designed to be carried in a C&L condition. If SOP was otherwise would that magically change how the gun was designed?
Of course a change in SOP would change design criteria and thus the design. And it did just that in the case of the Colt 1911.
It WASN'T designed as you claim. It was REDESIGNED or ALTERED to allow for a mechanical thumb safety.
It WAS designed by Browning, for Colt, to win a military contract.
It was NOT designed for the civilian market.
Your bio says you are a Mechanical Engineer, thus one is led to believe that you understand the design process. In the case of the 1911, Browning designed it to meet the criteria set by the military (the client). It was redesigned to meet NEW requirement. It was not the intent by either the military or Browning for the pistol to be carried C&L ALL the time. All of that is covered in the Patent.
quote:Originally posted by partisan
Why are we still answering this OLD question????????
Because, as with most everything in life, there is no right answer. Until everyone's situation and risk tolerance becomes exactly the same, there will never be a right answer.
Wyatt...My point exactly. The gun can be carried in several different states of readiness as dictated by the circumstances.
The right way is whatever way that you, the individual, decides fits your needs...and your needs may change from one day to the next.
"When action is imminent, the pistol may be kept at the ready with the chamber loaded, the hammer at full cock, and the manual safety engaged."
With the implication that once the emergency had been resolved, and the order came to stand down, the pistol was to be returned to: Holstered, empty chamber, hammer down...as per Army policy. The same applied to the service rifle.
There was no intent on the part of anyone for the pistol to be continually maintained in Condition One. It can be, as we all know...but the intent of the designer and the Army Ordnance Board wasn't aligned with that practice.
Comments
an officers model
I never kept one in
the pipe.I don't
with my glock either.
I did carry my 1911 with
the hammer back tho, just
no round in the chamber.
Any fiddling with a loaded gun carries an element of risk, but lowering a hammer on a hot chamber has been done for over a century. The trick is in knowing how and being careful.
Lots of things have been done for a long time, but aren't something I'd do or recommend for others.
Maybe its a mental block caused by having "keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire" beat into my head so many years ago.
Its obvious you know what you're talking about, and I'm sure you know far more about the 1911 platform than I do, but lower the hammer on a hot round, to me, seems to be a risky act (even with practice and care, there is always the element of chance) for no apparent gain.
BTW, welcome to the forums. Hope you stick around [:)]
It is more risky...but it's been done for a couple hundred years.
Hunting with a Model 94 Winchester...your buck steps out into a clearing. You cock the hammer quietly so as not to * him. He steps back into the trees and you lose the shot. What do you do? Cycle the rifle and eject all live rounds...or lower the hammer carefully?
Put a double-action revolver in that same situation. You can't swing the cylinder out with the hammer cocked. What do you do? Fire the round or lower the hammer?
Sometimes, carrying an autopistol with th hammer down has its advantages. It offers the lockwork more protection from mud and debris when navigating rough territory, and it better protects the hammer from side blows because on most of them...the hammer is supported on both sides by the recess it fits into in the slide.
Admittedly, these are special circumstances, and not ones that everybody finds themselves in very often...but they are valid reasons for Condition Two...and still allows you to bring the pistol into play with one hand. Basically a risk evaluation. Is there a greater chance that you'll need the gun in one second than there is for the gun to be damaged or plugged up with crud? If it's the latter...Condition Two is valid. Paramount that the gun works if needed. If it's been rendered inoperable, it won't matter much how fast you can get it in your hand and wipe the safety off.
Bottom line: We weigh the risks and roll the dice.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Out of curiosity, what was the recommended method of carry? I'm assuming loaded mag w/ empty chamber.
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
Apparently Clawson isn't alone in thinking that it wasn't designed for C&L carry. JMB didn't know what he was writing!
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by JohnT
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
Apparently Clawson isn't alone in thinking that it wasn't designed for C&L carry. JMB didn't know what he was writing!
You are ignoring the fact that the pistol was designed for the military and each piece of equipment in the military has a SOP or standard operating procedure. Talk to some vets that actually carried a 1911A1 as a side arm and you will learn that SOP was hammer down on an empty chamber. C&L was intended for short (or long??) periods of time AFTER the pistol was used as a side arm.
Mechanical safeties are a not 100% guaranty, nothing mechanical is.
JMB's Patients don't claim the pistol can be carried this way 100% of the time. He's pretty clear about the intent.
Being that Clawson is one of the preminient historians, and being that the addendum came about in 1913...which means that the people who wrote it had the input from the people who specified the thumb safety which means that they spoke directly with John Browning...I'd say that their statement is closer to factual. Added to the fact that the thumb safety wasn't even Browning's idea, and he added it at the request of the US Cavalry...he couldn't have intended for the gun to be carried cocked and locked.
Still in doubt? Here's a picture of one of eight pistols that Browning submitted for evaluation. It's one of the only two remaining original 1910 prototypes. The Ordnance Department sent them back with the request for a manual slide locking safety because the cavalry demanded one. Six were retrofitted and returned, and the rest is history. This one is in Clawson's private collection. The other one is in Colt's museum.
I know that many people want very badly to believe in the mantra;
"Cocked and locked! The way JMB intended!"
But the facts and the history just don't support it.
Model of 1910 photo courtesy of Charles W. Clawson.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by JohnT
Well...Dang. This one's been idle for a while, so I'll throw in somethin' I've been savin'.
From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.
Courtesy of Charles W. Clawson
Cheers!
Apparently Clawson isn't alone in thinking that it wasn't designed for C&L carry. JMB didn't know what he was writing!
You are ignoring the fact that the pistol was designed for the military and each piece of equipment in the military has a SOP or standard operating procedure. Talk to some vets that actually carried a 1911A1 as a side arm and you will learn that SOP was hammer down on an empty chamber. C&L was intended for short (or long??) periods of time AFTER the pistol was used as a side arm.
Mechanical safeties are a not 100% guaranty, nothing mechanical is.
JMB's Patients don't claim the pistol can be carried this way 100% of the time. He's pretty clear about the intent.
Again, either it was designed to be carried that way or not. JMB says it was.
I couldn't care less what SOP was for the military. The gun was, in fact, designed to be carried in a C&L condition. If SOP was otherwise would that magically change how the gun was designed?
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
I carry C&L when using a 1911,.....really don't give a crapola what it was designed for.
Simply carry the way you feel comfortable, but don't blame anyone if you never get the chance to rack the slide and end up dead.
I carry my Kahr CW9 (double action only), with one in the pipe, ready to go. I know it is going to pull up as I fire it, so I am ready. Practice, practice, practice.
I have a CW9 and asked Kahr about carrying with a round chambered and this is their response.
Our firearms are designed to and are completely safe to be carried in a +1 loaded configuration (loaded magazine +1 in the chamber). I hope this information helps.
Sincerely,
Jay
There's also no argument on my part that the fastest, most advantageous...most tactical way to carry it is cocked and locked. Tactical.
The points that I've tried to make are technical...not tactical. I've explained the function of the gun and outlined the options. What you...generically...do with the information is entirely up to you.
End of story.
Again, either it was designed to be carried that way or not. JMB says it was.
I couldn't care less what SOP was for the military. The gun was, in fact, designed to be carried in a C&L condition. If SOP was otherwise would that magically change how the gun was designed?
Of course a change in SOP would change design criteria and thus the design. And it did just that in the case of the Colt 1911.
It WASN'T designed as you claim. It was REDESIGNED or ALTERED to allow for a mechanical thumb safety.
It WAS designed by Browning, for Colt, to win a military contract.
It was NOT designed for the civilian market.
Your bio says you are a Mechanical Engineer, thus one is led to believe that you understand the design process. In the case of the 1911, Browning designed it to meet the criteria set by the military (the client). It was redesigned to meet NEW requirement. It was not the intent by either the military or Browning for the pistol to be carried C&L ALL the time. All of that is covered in the Patent.
Why are we still answering this OLD question????????
Because, as with most everything in life, there is no right answer. Until everyone's situation and risk tolerance becomes exactly the same, there will never be a right answer.
The right way is whatever way that you, the individual, decides fits your needs...and your needs may change from one day to the next.
Every field manual I've ever seen has stated:
"When action is imminent, the pistol may be kept at the ready with the chamber loaded, the hammer at full cock, and the manual safety engaged."
With the implication that once the emergency had been resolved, and the order came to stand down, the pistol was to be returned to: Holstered, empty chamber, hammer down...as per Army policy. The same applied to the service rifle.
There was no intent on the part of anyone for the pistol to be continually maintained in Condition One. It can be, as we all know...but the intent of the designer and the Army Ordnance Board wasn't aligned with that practice.