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quote:Originally posted by tr fox
And as this never ending, needless "debate" goes on and on and on and on, the people who are our real and true enemies, the gun grabbers, toil away building their ever more powerful and effective "machine" with which to defeat us.
I imagine that when they are in need of amusement from their labor, they stop for a moment, look this way, and quietly snicker. I say they do it "quietly" so as not to disturb us and our endless arguments. Because if they did, we just might unite and become an unstoppable force.
No one will unite with a slimy backstabber, knowingly. You are alone and will remain that way. Why do you even come here anymore? Trying to gather info on good folks, that might "save" you when the JBT's come for you, I suspect. I feel slimy just responding to you. You disgust me.
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Freemind,
The point I am TRYING to get across to you is this compromise you so hate is part of the real world. IT WILL NOT GO AWAY no matter how hard you try to get rid of it. The only real question is how much compromise can you except in the world. I would guess, from your response, very little. That great. But to say you will except NO compromise is telling me you refuse to except reality!!! If you can't except the 'real' world, where do you intend to live????[?][?]
Jim,the point you fail to understand is that there is NO compromising what God has given you.
I guess not. I didn't realize this was a religious subject we were discussing!!![?]
Jim, religion aside, the founders acknowledged that men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. They laid them out in the BOR. What have you to gain by trying to distract and derail the present context and subject of the discussion? Other than it is precisely my making the point that their is no compromise on the BOR because it is these that are given by God, not priveleges granted by men of authority, that shoots your whole "reality" argument right down the toilet?
Wolf,
I guess you still don't see there is a difference in principal (ideal), and degree (reality)!
I agree with the principal (ideal), now we MUST apply this principal to reality! We have to deal with other people to do this. Others have a say in this even if they are tainted by their ignorance. This is the reality we MUST ALL deal with when we approach this problem. [:(]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Wolf,
I guess you still don't see there is a difference in principal (ideal), and degree (reality)!
I agree with the principal (ideal), now we MUST apply this principal to reality! We have to deal with other people to do this. Others have a say in this even if they are tainted by their ignorance. This is the reality we MUST ALL deal with when we approach this problem. [:(]
I think you need to look at what your calling reality Jim. Your reality finds it acceptable to "comprimise" principles.
We find comprimising principles unacceptable. IF you REALLY belived like you continually claim, you would NOT be willing to "comprimise" because of "reality".
Reality IS Jimmy, you are perfectly COMFORTABLE with the way things are NOW.
Wolf,
You are beating a dead horse. Compromise is as much a part of life as breathing is. You have to allow some quarter for others views, opinions, and ideals. It don't matter what subject you are discussing.. You keep 'preaching' fire and brimstone, like a true preacher. But the reality is we all sin (compromise) all the time. The degree is all we have to focus on.
There are many on this site and the VAST majority,99+%, would agree on the principle, the 2nd Amendment. And would agree there are far to many and to much restriction on the right which 'shall not be infringed'![V]
I guess you must be blind and deaf so I will say it AGAIN!
I AM NOT SATISFIED WITH IT AT ALL. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW. IT IS BADLY BROKEN AND NEEDS ALOT OF REPAIR. I DON'T AGREE WITH THING AS THEY ARE. OUR RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED EVERY DAY EVERY PLACE. DO YOU GET NOW[?][?][?][?][?][?]
quote:Originally posted by jpwolf
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
And as this never ending, needless "debate" goes on and on and on and on, the people who are our real and true enemies, the gun grabbers, toil away building their ever more powerful and effective "machine" with which to defeat us.
I imagine that when they are in need of amusement from their labor, they stop for a moment, look this way, and quietly snicker. I say they do it "quietly" so as not to disturb us and our endless arguments. Because if they did, we just might unite and become an unstoppable force.
No one will unite with a slimy backstabber, knowingly. You are alone and will remain that way. Why do you even come here anymore? Trying to gather info on good folks, that might "save" you when the JBT's come for you, I suspect. I feel slimy just responding to you. You disgust me.
Wolf, you seem a little...I don't know....."angry" maybe? And I should care because of why?
Jim,, What the only thing they see is that compromise sold us,(gun owners), down the river. What the REFUSE to see is that compromise is the ONLY thing that will help us get back what we lost. Like so many different anaolgies, camels under the tent, eating the elephant, whatever. You can't shove hard enough to get that Camel out of the tent. Can't be done. But you might be able to lure him back out with something he wants. Little by little we can get the camel out of the tent. But NOTHING will happen without the ability to work with people of differing views and occasionally compromising with them to get things done and move in the direction YOU want to go in. Two of the strongest supporters of Gun Rights were at one time strongly opposed to firearms and private ownership of them. But once they started researching for projects they were working on, they found the truth. They were willing to compromise their previously held beleive and come to our side. But some of these guys are more than willing to slice their noses off to spite their faces. AS I have said, a nation without compromise, is a dictaorship. A man without compromise, is a fanatic. And fanatics can trusted to only one thing. Harm.
45, I am a fanatic when it comes to gun rights. I won't foam at the mouth and grow set of fangs and a uni-brow, but have had many rows with people over the issue.
Maybe we can chip away at the granite mountain of the gun laws infinging 2A, but the politicians version of compromise is what made the molehill of gun laws in the beginning of the 20th century into the Mt. Everest of laws we see today. It would take another 200 years of chipping to get back what we've lost in just the last 80 years. I agree with you that we need to work with people of differing views, not all gun-owners see things the same, but until we can convince the obamanators gun-owning supporters that in the end all firearm rights are in jeopordy not just "evil black rifles" we'll just continue to get the shaft. Maybe Jims soft approach will help them see, maybe HBs cold hard shock will jar some sense into them, but until they agree that we're in trouble, the apathetic nature of these sheeple won't get them motivated to lend a hand.
Maybe the verbal jousting we have here could provide the catalyst for that, but we get so many petty minds that refuse to see what their version of compromise has gotten us that I won't hold my breath waiting for the light to come on for them [:(]
I find it a little humorous, because in most circles I am considered a 'fanatic' when I get started about the RTKABA'a!!![;)] Most all of my friends thought I was very much a fanatic when I put my job on the line to oppose the Chief Zero tolerance on fire arms violation and mandatory arrest and bound for firearms violations when we serve and release DUI's. [:(!]
I was one of only two LEO's who went to the Senate Hearings in support of 'shall issue' CCW permits. So if that is the 'soft' approach so be it.[;)] Many other officers said they would not adhere to the policy but would do it quietly and not make waves. I felt the public had a right to know how prejudice our chief was.
I must admit I enjoyed butting heads with some of the 'idiots' at the state house and senate.[^]
You guys keep preaching that WE have to be willing/able to compromise, to return what has been STOLEN from us.
Our rights.
Would all agree that this is a loose definition of "compromise" ?
quote:Compromise...
A settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions.
If that is an acceptable definition.
Please explain exactly what "their" concessions have been?
EVERY TIME we have sat down at the table, OUR CONCESSION is.......
"please don't take ALL OF OUR GUN RIGHTS away this time.....please"
WHAT "concessions" HAVE THEY EVER MADE?
Other than (their concession).....we will only infringe on your constitutional rights a yard, instead of taking the WHOLE NINE YARDS, all at once.
Look where "compromise" has gotten us.
20,000+ UNconstitutional gun laws.
What we have been doing (compromising) has PROVEN that it does NOT work.
Why is that so hard for some to understand?
Do you know the definition of insanity?
Keep doing the same thing, hoping for a different outcome.
Someone, somewhere down the line, has to say NO MORE.
We will NOT compromise ANY MORE of our rights away.
Not a mile, not a yard, not a foot, NOT AN INCH.
NO MORE CONCESSIONS.
NO MORE COMPROMISE!!!!!
WE WANT OUR RIGHTS BACK.
I understand what your saying Pickenup. My point is that we need to start making them compromise and make concessions. But We can't do that if we go in foaming at the mouth like a bunch crazed gun owners proving them right about their conceptions of us. It's all in the pitch. They sold half the country on "Common Sense" legislation because they were calm, deliberate, and convincing.
And everytime someone from our side pipes up in here from the do or die group, they prove that gun owners are nothing but a bunch of inbred redneck hillbilies that don't have the ability to reason. What I have been saying is that maybe we should start being a little more calm. A little more friendly. Smile once in a while. Act like civalized people instead of a bunch raving loons and JUST MAYBE, we stand a chance of getting some of these things reversed in our life time. They didn't get all that crap in one year you know. It took a long time to get it where it is today. It's going to take just as long to get it back. Maybe even longer with this moral ground of no compromise. Hell even if some had to compromise their friggin attitude. That would be a start.
quote: things reversed in our life time. They didn't get all that crap in one year you know. It took a long time to get it where it is today. It's going to take just as long to get it back. Maybe even longer with this moral ground of no compromise. Hell even if some had to compromise their friggin attitude. That would be a start.
Not interested;
Will not participate.
I am perfectly willing to throw the dice. Give these sleaze bags their head, allow them to totally ban guns.
I WILL NOT crawl to one more politician and beg them to obey the Constitution ..and I will urge EVERY man out there to do the same.
You `compromise ` boys seem to forget that we are being infringed upon in every aspect of our lives ..we are no longer numerous enough to fight the Beast in his wholly owned arena. ..we that actually have read the Constitution once. Look at Ron Paul..despised by 90% of the population...including MOST GUN OWNERS...for Gods sake !!!
There exists only one method left to put the Beast back in its cage...and that is possible ONLY after the Beast has begun bulldozing the slit-trenches.
I will not diffuse my limited means by spending ONE THIN DIME towards appeasement or fighting the political fight.
You compromise boys call me whatever you wish.
"Shall Not be Infringed' indicates to me that I am totally RIGHT...and your good will is not necessary.
I use the word `weapon' for the same reason I use words as a brutally blunt bludgeon;
Those people WILL fear me and mine ..and they will either shut the hell up...or they will decide to eradicate me and mine.
Either way ..the Constitution and its supporters WIN. Either They will kill us off ..and you boys can go back to sleep...or WE win..and freedom comes back to America.
Well Highball, I wish you luck. You say you don't abide the beast and you won't compromise. But you do. Everyday. You pay your taxs. You obey the laws of the land. You do what all of us do to stay out of jail or worse. You work and support your family. And when the day is done you come on here and vent your frustrations like the rest of us. Your's is a bit more firey than most. But your no different than the rest of us. If you were, then we would be reading about you in the papers and hearing your story of rebelion on the nightly news when the "Beast" came to your "compound" and did whatever they did. But we aren't going to be reading about you. You will continue to do what is right by societies standard. Make your mortgage, or rent, meet the bills every month and make sacrafices,(compromises), to do so.
This is in no way an insult to your ideals or your passion. It's just saying that we are the same. Like a dirty shop or garage. We know it needs cleaned, but damn if we ever get to it, it will only be to make room for something else. Your something will be different than my something, but it will still be something.
They sold half the country on "Common Sense" legislation because they were calm, deliberate, and convincing.
And the reason they were successful is that 'half' of the country was calm, accepting, and willing to bend.
Had the majority of gun owners flooded their elected official's offices with emails, letters, phone calls, or even a personal visit stating not 'No', but "HELL, NO!!!! You are not going to do that. It is a clear infringement on the rights of the citizens. It is unconstitutional, therefore null and void. Pass it if you will, but we shall not abide by it. Furthermore, if you continue these attempts to undermine individual liberty, your actions may carry with it consequences which you are unprepared to face, let alone handle."
If 84 million+ would have done that, the story would have had a different ending.
But alas, the sheep do not speak the language of the sheepdogs. The sheep only know bleating.
What I HAVE said...over and over and over ..is that I will spend no more money , time, or effort fighting these sleazebags in their arena...the political process.
I will do all in my power to convince OTHERS to withdraw, also. That withdrawal will be merely for the purpose of preparing for hard times ahead.
I will continue to attempt to educate others about the documents that their country is founded upon ..and that are the basis for freedom...specifically, the Second Amendment.
I will await the time of ultimate activity of the Beast ..the time of slit trenches. Meanwhile...I WILL obey all laws, edicts, regulations and the idiot cop down the street ..in the endeavor to remain out of prison.
They will be forced to manufacture some evidence...or take me out for my speech.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Wolf,
I guess you still don't see there is a difference in principal (ideal), and degree (reality)!
I agree with the principal (ideal), now we MUST apply this principal to reality! We have to deal with other people to do this. Others have a say in this even if they are tainted by their ignorance. This is the reality we MUST ALL deal with when we approach this problem. [:(]
One is not dependant upon the other, I would think that is abundantly clear by now. Ideals can stand unchanged while reality is changed. less common, Ideals can change and reality stay the same. Ignorance is rearly a taint, it is innocence. unless it is willed, in wich case it is not ignorance at all but willed omission.
quote:And everytime someone from our side pipes up in here from the do or die group, they prove that gun owners are nothing but a bunch of inbred redneck hillbilies that don't have the ability to reason.
You do not seem to be on "my" side, so your reference to "our" side is not applicable to my positions.
Some of you boneheads just don't seem to understand that there are men here, men who will have nothing to do with "your side" of the issue.
I number myself among those men.
You translate your own feelings and thoughts onto "everyone" else and toss out the inbred redneck hillbilly adage to denigrate those who do not take "your" position.
I'll do you one better, I'll simply label those of you who are all about compromise and about being nice (foolishly IMO) to the enemies of the Republic. I'll call you "enablers" e.g. those who allow our enemies to continue to destroy our Constitutional Republic.
It is really as simple as that.
I'll just keep on standing up for the Constitution and its Bill of Rights, as written and as intended, but thanks for your advice.
You go ahead and preach your perverted view and hope that your method will somehow save.......what?
There is a difference between accepting a reality and simply recognizing a reality. One can recognize the current reality and still take an uncompromising stance towards correcting that reality. Statements like (I am not suggesting you or anyone here is saying this, BTW) 'No new gun laws, enforce the ones we have.' and 'No right is absolute.' both recognize and accept as reality restrictions that should never have been.
I personally see no contradiction in pursuing incremental improvements, but with a major caveat. The caveat is that any incremental improvement must be measured by the Constitution. For example, a new CCW law that expands access is a short-sighted improvement and is actually a step backwards in that it is simply a pacification technique that shuts up Cam Edwards and his ilk that profess 2nd Amendment Rights, yet are content for near total Government regulation of bearing, if not keeping. A true incremental step forward is only found in the striking of restrictive ordinances from the books, not merely replacing them with a kinder and gentler statue.
Every statue that merely reduces the obvious intrusion strengthens the validity of that intrusion. Working with the system through compromise of principle is the surrender of that principle. Working with the system for the restoration of principle in stark terms is the only worthwhile step forward.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by quickmajik
"somehow save.......what?"
His own skin, it is clear that this man is a coward...
He does not want to understand simple truths, I guess being deballed by the establishment is tramatic.
I do not think he is a coward quick. I simply believe that he takes a position that "enables" the continued destruction of the Republic.
We disagree on principal, stance, approach and belief, reference Constitutional issues.
Original intent/hard-line vs. compromise/willing acceptance of "privilege" as opposed to fundamental "right".
Living life, compromise or "conditions" with consequences?
Your employer states that you will show up at this time, do this job, for this much pay, and go home at this time. These are his "conditions" for employment. You have a choice to accept these "conditions" or reject them. If you choose to reject these "conditions" you suffer the consequences. You can look elsewhere for employment.
Laws are "conditions" handed down by the lawmakers. Again, you have a choice to accept or reject these "conditions." Stop at the red light, or you can choose to run a red light. If so, you get a ticket. Rob a bank, you go to jail. These are the consequences for rejecting the "conditions." I don't see the "compromise" here.
You can call it "compromising" in daily life. (I do not)
Or you can call it "conditions" with consequences. (I do)
Irregardless of what you want to call it, the argument for it, falls flat on it's face. How can one even begin to compare the two?
There is NO constitutionally protected right to a job.
There is NO constitutionally protected right to keep out of jail.
There is NO constitutionally protected right to sex and a happy life.
But there IS a CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT which states,
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Well. As usual, the point was completely missed by Allomost everyone. Don got it. My point was that we can work to restore our rights within the frame work as long as it moves our agenda forward. I don't like the idea of CCW permits. You can't be given a permit to exercise a right. Permits are for privilidges. And they can be revoked at anytime by the giver. Rights can not. Being in California, I have know friends that have had that priviledge,(SP?), revoked. And for no other reason except a change in administration. But nothing that has taken so long to build up can be taken down in a single stroke. And what I have allways said is that to take down something the systen has built, sometimes you have to use the system against itself. And unless they fire the first shot,(litterally), then working with the system you have is the way to do anything. I agree that IF all gun owners had worked together on so many different occassions to stop these individual bills as they came down from on high, we would not be in this mess. But. It was done in such a way that 85% if the country said, oh yeah that sounds good. And notice that allmost to a restriction, they all happened at the end of a traggic event. All the major ones anyway. Bobby Kennedy, that did away with mail order guns. And on it went. Untill........................... The key is to catch the country in a state of shock. Do that and you could pass a heard of naked hookers through a penicostal church and no one notice or care. Those that did notice would think that there had to be a good reason for doing so or it wouldn't have happened.
To all those that felt I was referring to anyone in an unflattering term, you missed it. And I'm not surprised. And as for me being a coward,,,,,,*L* Well I don't see your names in the paper storming the ramparts either. But anytime you feel the need, please go forward. Hope it works out for you.
quote:As usual, the point was completely missed by Allomost everyone.
You flatter yourself sir. Your "point" has been clear since you started posting on the subject of "Rights" enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
Speaking for myself, I choose to not further debate the issue at this time. I simply am calling it like I see it. You are not going to sway me to your position, nor am I going to sway you to the constitutional position.
The differences can be viewed and evaluated by those reading.
quote:They sold half the country on "Common Sense" legislation because they were calm, deliberate, and convincing.
On this issue I will make comment.
Anti-Constitution legislation was not 'sold' to America due to the calm, reasoned delivery method. It was 'sold' due to the abject ignorance of many as to what the Constitution and Bill of Rights actually say, mean and entail. It was 'sold' because the government has largely turned its back on the Supreme Law of The Land with our acceptance as a people. It was 'sold' because collectivist philosophy has taken over and the majority of those in power got there through various machinations. It was 'sold' because collectivism is accepted, nay, expected and desired by most citizens. It was 'sold' because back when the Republic may have been saved and collectivist governance thwarted, many were asleep at the wheel.
Now the "conventional wisdom" is that we must accept such intrusion for the time being and that we "hope" and "work" to regain the lost ground through calm and reasoned means and by asking for and accepting more, albeit different, government regulations.
How utterly ridiculous.
Logic dictates that we are locked into a losing battle, those who are in the battle at all that is. A hard stance, aka an absolutist stance, is about the only method of shining light on what was intended and what is the 'bottom-line'.
All the mewling and mealy-mouthing about incrementally taking back rights, all the while, pushing for and voicing admiration for those things (the NRA-type philosophy and approach) that ensure this will never happen, well, that fits the definition of "insanity" quite well, e.g. doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Your CCW's and other such clap-trap are a government concession that still absolutely maintains their control over your former RTKBA and which further reinforces to the populace that the government has the constitutional authority to do the things that they do, when clearly they do not.
We do not "come back" from that, period. "Privilege" is now codified into the cement of "Constitutional Law", via the "Heller" case.
Go ahead and preach more acceptance of that which further erodes the Republic. Me, i'll just keep on shining the bright light of original intent and of the actual text of the Constitution onto such actions and onto the arguments posed by the "enablers" infesting the Republic.
You illustrate perfectly why many here, including myself, have such an issue with groups that purport to support the 2nd Amendment, yet are actually doing damage. As stated previously, working within the system only is progress if each endeavor results in the striking down of restrictive law as compared to simply modifying that law. That uncompromised position is not reflected by many self-described 2nd Amendment advocates.
The road toward freedom is a journey of education. For many, myself included, education sometimes only comes in the form of a blunt object firmly rapped between the eyes. With 20,000 laws in 5,000 jurisdictions, the actual job is local and is not overwhelming provided sufficient people are made aware of the differences between rights and privileges (as you point out). EDIT: As the numbers of these local successes (and there have been a few recently) increase, the process of this education will be made simpler. I do not hold out much hope for a firm and principled SCOTUS decision in my lifetime, though it is necessary for the continuation of our freedoms, and, because it is necessary, the optimist in me believes that it will eventually occur.
There should be a much greater resonance from those four simple lines written by Pickenup, but there is not. For many it will take that firm rap to the head to open their eyes. That is why the uncompromising and unyielding message must be broadcast loud and clear constantly and consistently. If it is not broadcast constantly it will most assuredly be drowned out by the compromised message that 90%+ of gun owners seem to accept as truth.
As you point out, it is that compromised message that has conditioned people to succumb to the emotion of the moment and thus the acceptance of those restrictions presented when under duress.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
The idea that compromisers seem to have difficulty with is that all people have certain basic human rights. The Founding Fathers recognized this, and referred to them as being "endowed by their Creator" and designed a document which both enumerated them and specifically stated the role of government in relation to them.
From the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence:
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
From the Preamble to the Bill of Rights:
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
There is no compromising human rights. "That was then, this is now" does not apply; there is no "evolution" of the intrinsic rights that people are entitled to as members of a civilized society, they existed in 5000 BC and they will also exist in 5000 AD.
Citizens have the right to physically defend themselves from criminals, ALL of them - whether they wear a bandanna around their head or a Brooks Brothers suit, by whatever means necessary and with whatever tools they require to do so, not with whatever tools government allows them to use.
Of course, Progressives are well aware of all of this, thus their seizure of the control of the broadcast and print media and the educational system. Being secular humanist in nature, they believe that Man is the highest power, and government is the ultimate arbitrator of that power. To implement total government control they must first eliminate the idea that there is a higher power than government, thus the ongoing programming of the populace to believe that there is no God, that government is a benevolent, omnipresent "Uncle Sam" that knows what is best for all.
Yes. Exactly. The anti-gun side has a game plan that is hard to beat. They wait and they strike when the time is right. In comparison, the pro-gun pro 2nd side looks like they are just flailing away at everything that comes along. I don't think RTKBA people are very well organized. At leat not to the extent that the opposition is. I don't hear anything in any of these threads that even suggests a plan to get our rights back. What I do hear is a lot of name calling. A lot of "brave" talk about no cmpromise and that they will go down blazing when the knock comes at their door. What I don't hear are any real plans to try and do anything in the here and now. I am a member of a group here that works to protect 2nd rights and fights anti-gun legislation as it comes up at the state level. It's called the Madison Society. I do what I can to help. Donations and such. They recently won a case to keep one of the local Gun Stores open after they were attacked by ATF thugs and had a bunch lowers taken. The ATF tried to close these guys down on a bunch of phoney charges. They lost. Store still open. Thats a victory. Maybe we didn't get anything repealed, but no ground was lost either. AND, it was something positive and proactive rather than just sitting at a keyboard ranting and talking about revolution.
Yes. Exactly. The anti-gun side has a game plan that is hard to beat. They wait and they strike when the time is right. In comparison, the pro-gun pro 2nd side looks like they are just flailing away at everything that comes along. I don't think RTKBA people are very well organized. At leat not to the extent that the opposition is. I don't hear anything in any of these threads that even suggests a plan to get our rights back. What I do hear is a lot of name calling. A lot of "brave" talk about no cmpromise and that they will go down blazing when the knock comes at their door. What I don't hear are any real plans to try and do anything in the here and now. I am a member of a group here that works to protect 2nd rights and fights anti-gun legislation as it comes up at the state level. It's called the Madison Society. I do what I can to help. Donations and such. They recently won a case to keep one of the local Gun Stores open after they were attacked by ATF thugs and had a bunch lowers taken. The ATF tried to close these guys down on a bunch of phoney charges. They lost. Store still open. Thats a victory. Maybe we didn't get anything repealed, but no ground was lost either. AND, it was something positive and proactive rather than just sitting at a keyboard ranting and talking about revolution.
This is the kind of attitude I wish we had more of. A lot more of. This is the kind of "fighting" that, even under the present circumstances, makes sense.
Course the above does not sound as macho and exciting as what is usually preached on this forum.
By spending time, money, and effort, you kept a gun dealer in business.
Congratulations...you aided and abetted the Beast. The entire FFL structure OUGHT to be repugnant to thinking Americans...and IS.
The FFL is a construct of the Federal government, designed to force private business to do the job of collecting data for the Secret Police.
Most do it eagerly. People like you help them along, in their odious task. Even a brief thought, a tiny grasp of the Constitution would reveal that keeping records on gun owners is insane...if a free country is any part of your psyche.
I believe that nobody ought to EVER buy another weapon from a dealer.
I certainly understand your cheerleading section..lots of fuss and feathers generated, no real risks involved, and no change in the status quo. What is to dislike about your approach..at least for most folks ?
Naturally, you fawning disciples of gun control will be outraged by my stand...but what else is new ?
Yet one more example of why there is this deep chasm between you boys...and the Constitution.
HB,,, Your beyond words. We keep a gun dealer in business and thats a bad thing to you. I guess you have preferred that he get shut down by "the beast". Nothing is good enough for you. No small victory is worthy. Why don't you stop typing and go out and start the war. Go ahead. Take up arms against the beast and start doing your thing. You every bit as bad as the people you rail against. And naturally, your to blind by your own egotistical view of the world to see it. I really feel sorry for you man. To be so closed off must be so lonely.
TR Fox,, Thanks Man. We do what we can when we can.
HB,, I forgot to ask. What exactly have YOU done to take a risk? To help the cause of the pro-gun, pro 2nd fight? Anything ? Or do you just sit behind your keyboard and play commando and insult people?
I haven't heard of any "real risk" you have taken. But you sit there behind your keyboard and belittle the efforts of others. Yeah, thats real productive. You should be proud of your effort. Of the risk you seem to be takeing.
Are you capable of understanding that a 'gun dealer' today is merely a list making machine for the government ?
Gathering date forbidden to the government ?
No...I didn't think so.
One has to be smarter then the average, dumbed-down nra supporter to understand something so very basic.
One has to be really slow to not make such a simple, short leap of knowledge.
What have I done lately ? I have planted a seed in your mind. It may take ten years...but that seed will grow.
HB,,, Yeah ok farmer John. So basically, you haven't done anything except sit behind your keyboard. Wonderfull. Keep up the good work. But keep in mind that REAL progress and REAL gains are made by actually getting off your butt and doing something. Even if it's something small.
And IF gun dealers are as you say, then where do you buy your guns ?? Street corner thugs? Black market? No. I'm guessing you probably have and will continue to buy them from gun dealers like the rest of us.
What a Hypocrit. Oh and by the way. I don't support the NRA. Haven't for over ten years.
quote:Originally posted by 45long
HB,,, Yeah ok farmer John. So basically, you haven't done anything except sit behind your keyboard. Wonderfull. Keep up the good work. But keep in mind that REAL progress and REAL gains are made by actually getting off your butt and doing something. Even if it's something small.
And IF gun dealers are as you say, then where do you buy your guns ?? Street corner thugs? Black market? No. I'm guessing you probably have and will continue to buy them from gun dealers like the rest of us.
What a Hypocrit. Oh and by the way. I don't support the NRA. Haven't for over ten years.
If he is anything like me he buys from individuals when he can.
I always purchase from individuals. There is very little that we can do on a national level, but I've mailed numerous letters and made many phone calls to my local representatives to oppose the attack on legal commerce between law-abiding citizens at gun shows.
Yes. Exactly. The anti-gun side has a game plan that is hard to beat. They wait and they strike when the time is right. In comparison, the pro-gun pro 2nd side looks like they are just flailing away at everything that comes along. I don't think RTKBA people are very well organized. At leat not to the extent that the opposition is. I don't hear anything in any of these threads that even suggests a plan to get our rights back. What I do hear is a lot of name calling. A lot of "brave" talk about no cmpromise and that they will go down blazing when the knock comes at their door. What I don't hear are any real plans to try and do anything in the here and now. I am a member of a group here that works to protect 2nd rights and fights anti-gun legislation as it comes up at the state level. It's called the Madison Society. I do what I can to help. Donations and such. They recently won a case to keep one of the local Gun Stores open after they were attacked by ATF thugs and had a bunch lowers taken. The ATF tried to close these guys down on a bunch of phoney charges. They lost. Store still open. Thats a victory. Maybe we didn't get anything repealed, but no ground was lost either. AND, it was something positive and proactive rather than just sitting at a keyboard ranting and talking about revolution.
45long:
Any victory that is clear and does not compromise one principle for another is a victory. In the case you noted, it is a victory for property rights and the rights of a businessman, but does not address the RTKBA. I applaud the Madison Society for assisting a businessman keep his business, but even after reviewing their website, cannot form an opinion as to whether I would agree with their total mission or not.
I have and will support efforts by groups and/or individuals for specific goals and support one group only unconditionally (so far). IMO, this is not simply a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not to be melodramatic, but supporting Stalin to defeat Hitler was a short-term expediency at best. Our desire for the quick fix eased our burden for a few years, but increased the burden on generations that followed. In many ways we are facing the same strategic decision today. If we cast our lot with the NRA and like minded folks, we may reach an equilibrium that will ebb and flow for a generation or two. In the end, however, we will be a country that respects freedom and liberty or we will not. If we accept compromises today, it will be our grandchildren that are forced to make that decision. The sooner we can move more gun owners and freedom lovers in general to the no-compromise side of the ledger, the smaller will be the burden our grandchildren will be forced to bear.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:And IF gun dealers are as you say, then where do you buy your guns ?? Street corner thugs? Black market? No. I'm guessing you probably have and will continue to buy them from gun dealers like the rest of us.
There is revealed the mindset of the typical collectivist, Beast-Lover.
Either one buys from the Beast ..after crawling on your belly and begging...or you buy from criminals.
After all...only criminals sell guns off-paper.
What a crock of snit some people are.
The ONLY people in America today doing as the Second demands are Citizens selling, trading, and acquiring weapons off-paper. You don't seem to fit.
The other thing small, insignificant people harp upon ..'Who have you killed lately for the cause' line of crap...what a joke.
They themselves are so tiny and irrelevant they cannot CONCIEVE of the fact that it merely takes ONE man to change the course of events of history;
That reaching that one man and altering his blind devotion to big government, big business, Fascism/Socialism will be the deciding factor in the success...OR failure ..of the cause of freedom.
That while I myself am not that man ..something I might say may WELL trigger that one leader to do what is necessary to ensure the survival of America.
That it is my DUTY to try and reach that man...unlike the pzants that demand obedience to a false Constitution and a destructive course of action.
I may well not survive ..or be brave enough to fire that shot in anger.
But I damn well will die knowing that I never turned my back on the Founders....or preached a false doctrine to others about their words.
HB,, You are so full of fertilizer it is astounding. On one hand you preach fire and brimstone, yet you do NOTHING to actually make a difference. Except to buy "off paper" Yeah right. Then you ridicule people who do actually do something(be it in a small way).
You talk a big game but your real short on substance. You talk crap about others that don't follow EXACTLY your view of the founding fathers ot their plan for the country. As though you have some magical insight to what that is. Oh and you don't. Your ideas are, while loosely based on founding principles are your idea of constitutional perfection and screw anyone that has a differeing opinion. Yeah thats a real constitutional ideal.
Well hey, good luck with the revolution. You keep sitting behind that keyboard and "planting seeds". Don't take any actual active participation, just keep planting. Thats what you seem to be "good" at. Maybe you should change your name to Johnny Apple Seed.
Thank you for the compliment ..but feel I must decline.
I am neither kind NOR generous to the enemies of freedom...and there is absolutely NOTHING symbolic about the ownership of weapons.
While weapons ARE a symbol of freedom ..without the free ownership, trading, and selling of them...we have a dictatorship.
I also must be amused at the little minds that INSIST that the ONLY two courses of action in America today is crawling on their bellies to Politicians, begging them to obey the Constitution...
and shooting people now, today.
I think there is another way. I practice it EVERY DAY...24/7. I live it, I breath it, I work on it.
Some day, when you are tired of crawling, you will understand what I am talking about. Of course...some people are more comfortable crawling.
quote:Maybe you should change your name to Johnny Apple Seed.
Johnny Appleseed, born John Chapman (September 26, 1774 - February 18, 1845), was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. He became an American legend while still alive, largely because of his kind and generous ways, his great leadership in conservation, and the symbolic importance of apples
quote:Originally posted by 45long
HB,, You are so full of fertilizer it is astounding. On one hand you preach fire and brimstone, yet you do NOTHING to actually make a difference. Except to buy "off paper" Yeah right. Then you ridicule people who do actually do something(be it in a small way).
You talk a big game but your real short on substance. You talk crap about others that don't follow EXACTLY your view of the founding fathers ot their plan for the country. As though you have some magical insight to what that is. Oh and you don't. Your ideas are, while loosely based on founding principles are your idea of constitutional perfection and screw anyone that has a differeing opinion. Yeah thats a real constitutional ideal.
Well hey, good luck with the revolution. You keep sitting behind that keyboard and "planting seeds". Don't take any actual active participation, just keep planting. Thats what you seem to be "good" at. Maybe you should change your name to Johnny Apple Seed.
2+2=4
Is that your VIEW ??
There is a LARGE difference between FACTS and OPINIONS. You constantly point out Highballs "opinons" and "views", as if it were something he PULLED from thin air.
How about instead of YOU blowing hot air as usual, YOU point OUT with FACTS where his "views" about the second amendment are FACTUALLY wrong. If you can't, how about YOU shut your pie hole, as working with "comprimise" "in the system" has gotton us IN this mess to begin with.
Comments
And as this never ending, needless "debate" goes on and on and on and on, the people who are our real and true enemies, the gun grabbers, toil away building their ever more powerful and effective "machine" with which to defeat us.
I imagine that when they are in need of amusement from their labor, they stop for a moment, look this way, and quietly snicker. I say they do it "quietly" so as not to disturb us and our endless arguments. Because if they did, we just might unite and become an unstoppable force.
No one will unite with a slimy backstabber, knowingly. You are alone and will remain that way. Why do you even come here anymore? Trying to gather info on good folks, that might "save" you when the JBT's come for you, I suspect. I feel slimy just responding to you. You disgust me.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Freemind,
The point I am TRYING to get across to you is this compromise you so hate is part of the real world. IT WILL NOT GO AWAY no matter how hard you try to get rid of it. The only real question is how much compromise can you except in the world. I would guess, from your response, very little. That great. But to say you will except NO compromise is telling me you refuse to except reality!!! If you can't except the 'real' world, where do you intend to live????[?][?]
Jim,the point you fail to understand is that there is NO compromising what God has given you.
I guess not. I didn't realize this was a religious subject we were discussing!!![?]
I guess you still don't see there is a difference in principal (ideal), and degree (reality)!
I agree with the principal (ideal), now we MUST apply this principal to reality! We have to deal with other people to do this. Others have a say in this even if they are tainted by their ignorance. This is the reality we MUST ALL deal with when we approach this problem. [:(]
Wolf,
I guess you still don't see there is a difference in principal (ideal), and degree (reality)!
I agree with the principal (ideal), now we MUST apply this principal to reality! We have to deal with other people to do this. Others have a say in this even if they are tainted by their ignorance. This is the reality we MUST ALL deal with when we approach this problem. [:(]
I think you need to look at what your calling reality Jim. Your reality finds it acceptable to "comprimise" principles.
We find comprimising principles unacceptable. IF you REALLY belived like you continually claim, you would NOT be willing to "comprimise" because of "reality".
Reality IS Jimmy, you are perfectly COMFORTABLE with the way things are NOW.
You are beating a dead horse. Compromise is as much a part of life as breathing is. You have to allow some quarter for others views, opinions, and ideals. It don't matter what subject you are discussing.. You keep 'preaching' fire and brimstone, like a true preacher. But the reality is we all sin (compromise) all the time. The degree is all we have to focus on.
There are many on this site and the VAST majority,99+%, would agree on the principle, the 2nd Amendment. And would agree there are far to many and to much restriction on the right which 'shall not be infringed'![V]
I guess you must be blind and deaf so I will say it AGAIN!
I AM NOT SATISFIED WITH IT AT ALL. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW. IT IS BADLY BROKEN AND NEEDS ALOT OF REPAIR. I DON'T AGREE WITH THING AS THEY ARE. OUR RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED EVERY DAY EVERY PLACE. DO YOU GET NOW[?][?][?][?][?][?]
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
And as this never ending, needless "debate" goes on and on and on and on, the people who are our real and true enemies, the gun grabbers, toil away building their ever more powerful and effective "machine" with which to defeat us.
I imagine that when they are in need of amusement from their labor, they stop for a moment, look this way, and quietly snicker. I say they do it "quietly" so as not to disturb us and our endless arguments. Because if they did, we just might unite and become an unstoppable force.
No one will unite with a slimy backstabber, knowingly. You are alone and will remain that way. Why do you even come here anymore? Trying to gather info on good folks, that might "save" you when the JBT's come for you, I suspect. I feel slimy just responding to you. You disgust me.
Wolf, you seem a little...I don't know....."angry" maybe? And I should care because of why?
Maybe we can chip away at the granite mountain of the gun laws infinging 2A, but the politicians version of compromise is what made the molehill of gun laws in the beginning of the 20th century into the Mt. Everest of laws we see today. It would take another 200 years of chipping to get back what we've lost in just the last 80 years. I agree with you that we need to work with people of differing views, not all gun-owners see things the same, but until we can convince the obamanators gun-owning supporters that in the end all firearm rights are in jeopordy not just "evil black rifles" we'll just continue to get the shaft. Maybe Jims soft approach will help them see, maybe HBs cold hard shock will jar some sense into them, but until they agree that we're in trouble, the apathetic nature of these sheeple won't get them motivated to lend a hand.
Maybe the verbal jousting we have here could provide the catalyst for that, but we get so many petty minds that refuse to see what their version of compromise has gotten us that I won't hold my breath waiting for the light to come on for them [:(]
I was one of only two LEO's who went to the Senate Hearings in support of 'shall issue' CCW permits. So if that is the 'soft' approach so be it.[;)] Many other officers said they would not adhere to the policy but would do it quietly and not make waves. I felt the public had a right to know how prejudice our chief was.
I must admit I enjoyed butting heads with some of the 'idiots' at the state house and senate.[^]
Our rights.
Would all agree that this is a loose definition of "compromise" ?
quote:Compromise...
A settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions.
If that is an acceptable definition.
Please explain exactly what "their" concessions have been?
EVERY TIME we have sat down at the table, OUR CONCESSION is.......
"please don't take ALL OF OUR GUN RIGHTS away this time.....please"
WHAT "concessions" HAVE THEY EVER MADE?
Other than (their concession).....we will only infringe on your constitutional rights a yard, instead of taking the WHOLE NINE YARDS, all at once.
Look where "compromise" has gotten us.
20,000+ UNconstitutional gun laws.
What we have been doing (compromising) has PROVEN that it does NOT work.
Why is that so hard for some to understand?
Do you know the definition of insanity?
Keep doing the same thing, hoping for a different outcome.
Someone, somewhere down the line, has to say NO MORE.
We will NOT compromise ANY MORE of our rights away.
Not a mile, not a yard, not a foot, NOT AN INCH.
NO MORE CONCESSIONS.
NO MORE COMPROMISE!!!!!
WE WANT OUR RIGHTS BACK.
And everytime someone from our side pipes up in here from the do or die group, they prove that gun owners are nothing but a bunch of inbred redneck hillbilies that don't have the ability to reason. What I have been saying is that maybe we should start being a little more calm. A little more friendly. Smile once in a while. Act like civalized people instead of a bunch raving loons and JUST MAYBE, we stand a chance of getting some of these things reversed in our life time. They didn't get all that crap in one year you know. It took a long time to get it where it is today. It's going to take just as long to get it back. Maybe even longer with this moral ground of no compromise. Hell even if some had to compromise their friggin attitude. That would be a start.
Not interested;
Will not participate.
I am perfectly willing to throw the dice. Give these sleaze bags their head, allow them to totally ban guns.
I WILL NOT crawl to one more politician and beg them to obey the Constitution ..and I will urge EVERY man out there to do the same.
You `compromise ` boys seem to forget that we are being infringed upon in every aspect of our lives ..we are no longer numerous enough to fight the Beast in his wholly owned arena. ..we that actually have read the Constitution once. Look at Ron Paul..despised by 90% of the population...including MOST GUN OWNERS...for Gods sake !!!
There exists only one method left to put the Beast back in its cage...and that is possible ONLY after the Beast has begun bulldozing the slit-trenches.
I will not diffuse my limited means by spending ONE THIN DIME towards appeasement or fighting the political fight.
You compromise boys call me whatever you wish.
"Shall Not be Infringed' indicates to me that I am totally RIGHT...and your good will is not necessary.
I use the word `weapon' for the same reason I use words as a brutally blunt bludgeon;
Those people WILL fear me and mine ..and they will either shut the hell up...or they will decide to eradicate me and mine.
Either way ..the Constitution and its supporters WIN. Either They will kill us off ..and you boys can go back to sleep...or WE win..and freedom comes back to America.
This is in no way an insult to your ideals or your passion. It's just saying that we are the same. Like a dirty shop or garage. We know it needs cleaned, but damn if we ever get to it, it will only be to make room for something else. Your something will be different than my something, but it will still be something.
And the reason they were successful is that 'half' of the country was calm, accepting, and willing to bend.
Had the majority of gun owners flooded their elected official's offices with emails, letters, phone calls, or even a personal visit stating not 'No', but "HELL, NO!!!! You are not going to do that. It is a clear infringement on the rights of the citizens. It is unconstitutional, therefore null and void. Pass it if you will, but we shall not abide by it. Furthermore, if you continue these attempts to undermine individual liberty, your actions may carry with it consequences which you are unprepared to face, let alone handle."
If 84 million+ would have done that, the story would have had a different ending.
But alas, the sheep do not speak the language of the sheepdogs. The sheep only know bleating.
BAA. BAA.[:(!]
What I HAVE said...over and over and over ..is that I will spend no more money , time, or effort fighting these sleazebags in their arena...the political process.
I will do all in my power to convince OTHERS to withdraw, also. That withdrawal will be merely for the purpose of preparing for hard times ahead.
I will continue to attempt to educate others about the documents that their country is founded upon ..and that are the basis for freedom...specifically, the Second Amendment.
I will await the time of ultimate activity of the Beast ..the time of slit trenches. Meanwhile...I WILL obey all laws, edicts, regulations and the idiot cop down the street ..in the endeavor to remain out of prison.
They will be forced to manufacture some evidence...or take me out for my speech.
Wolf,
I guess you still don't see there is a difference in principal (ideal), and degree (reality)!
I agree with the principal (ideal), now we MUST apply this principal to reality! We have to deal with other people to do this. Others have a say in this even if they are tainted by their ignorance. This is the reality we MUST ALL deal with when we approach this problem. [:(]
One is not dependant upon the other, I would think that is abundantly clear by now. Ideals can stand unchanged while reality is changed. less common, Ideals can change and reality stay the same. Ignorance is rearly a taint, it is innocence. unless it is willed, in wich case it is not ignorance at all but willed omission.
You do not seem to be on "my" side, so your reference to "our" side is not applicable to my positions.
Some of you boneheads just don't seem to understand that there are men here, men who will have nothing to do with "your side" of the issue.
I number myself among those men.
You translate your own feelings and thoughts onto "everyone" else and toss out the inbred redneck hillbilly adage to denigrate those who do not take "your" position.
I'll do you one better, I'll simply label those of you who are all about compromise and about being nice (foolishly IMO) to the enemies of the Republic. I'll call you "enablers" e.g. those who allow our enemies to continue to destroy our Constitutional Republic.
It is really as simple as that.
I'll just keep on standing up for the Constitution and its Bill of Rights, as written and as intended, but thanks for your advice.
You go ahead and preach your perverted view and hope that your method will somehow save.......what?
His own skin, it is clear that this man is a coward...
He does not want to understand simple truths, I guess being deballed by the establishment is tramatic.
There is a difference between accepting a reality and simply recognizing a reality. One can recognize the current reality and still take an uncompromising stance towards correcting that reality. Statements like (I am not suggesting you or anyone here is saying this, BTW) 'No new gun laws, enforce the ones we have.' and 'No right is absolute.' both recognize and accept as reality restrictions that should never have been.
I personally see no contradiction in pursuing incremental improvements, but with a major caveat. The caveat is that any incremental improvement must be measured by the Constitution. For example, a new CCW law that expands access is a short-sighted improvement and is actually a step backwards in that it is simply a pacification technique that shuts up Cam Edwards and his ilk that profess 2nd Amendment Rights, yet are content for near total Government regulation of bearing, if not keeping. A true incremental step forward is only found in the striking of restrictive ordinances from the books, not merely replacing them with a kinder and gentler statue.
Every statue that merely reduces the obvious intrusion strengthens the validity of that intrusion. Working with the system through compromise of principle is the surrender of that principle. Working with the system for the restoration of principle in stark terms is the only worthwhile step forward.
Brad Steele
"somehow save.......what?"
His own skin, it is clear that this man is a coward...
He does not want to understand simple truths, I guess being deballed by the establishment is tramatic.
I do not think he is a coward quick. I simply believe that he takes a position that "enables" the continued destruction of the Republic.
We disagree on principal, stance, approach and belief, reference Constitutional issues.
Original intent/hard-line vs. compromise/willing acceptance of "privilege" as opposed to fundamental "right".
Your employer states that you will show up at this time, do this job, for this much pay, and go home at this time. These are his "conditions" for employment. You have a choice to accept these "conditions" or reject them. If you choose to reject these "conditions" you suffer the consequences. You can look elsewhere for employment.
Laws are "conditions" handed down by the lawmakers. Again, you have a choice to accept or reject these "conditions." Stop at the red light, or you can choose to run a red light. If so, you get a ticket. Rob a bank, you go to jail. These are the consequences for rejecting the "conditions." I don't see the "compromise" here.
You can call it "compromising" in daily life. (I do not)
Or you can call it "conditions" with consequences. (I do)
Irregardless of what you want to call it, the argument for it, falls flat on it's face. How can one even begin to compare the two?
There is NO constitutionally protected right to a job.
There is NO constitutionally protected right to keep out of jail.
There is NO constitutionally protected right to sex and a happy life.
But there IS a CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT which states,
"The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
To all those that felt I was referring to anyone in an unflattering term, you missed it. And I'm not surprised. And as for me being a coward,,,,,,*L* Well I don't see your names in the paper storming the ramparts either. But anytime you feel the need, please go forward. Hope it works out for you.
You flatter yourself sir. Your "point" has been clear since you started posting on the subject of "Rights" enumerated in the Bill of Rights.
Speaking for myself, I choose to not further debate the issue at this time. I simply am calling it like I see it. You are not going to sway me to your position, nor am I going to sway you to the constitutional position.
The differences can be viewed and evaluated by those reading.
quote:They sold half the country on "Common Sense" legislation because they were calm, deliberate, and convincing.
On this issue I will make comment.
Anti-Constitution legislation was not 'sold' to America due to the calm, reasoned delivery method. It was 'sold' due to the abject ignorance of many as to what the Constitution and Bill of Rights actually say, mean and entail. It was 'sold' because the government has largely turned its back on the Supreme Law of The Land with our acceptance as a people. It was 'sold' because collectivist philosophy has taken over and the majority of those in power got there through various machinations. It was 'sold' because collectivism is accepted, nay, expected and desired by most citizens. It was 'sold' because back when the Republic may have been saved and collectivist governance thwarted, many were asleep at the wheel.
Now the "conventional wisdom" is that we must accept such intrusion for the time being and that we "hope" and "work" to regain the lost ground through calm and reasoned means and by asking for and accepting more, albeit different, government regulations.
How utterly ridiculous.
Logic dictates that we are locked into a losing battle, those who are in the battle at all that is. A hard stance, aka an absolutist stance, is about the only method of shining light on what was intended and what is the 'bottom-line'.
All the mewling and mealy-mouthing about incrementally taking back rights, all the while, pushing for and voicing admiration for those things (the NRA-type philosophy and approach) that ensure this will never happen, well, that fits the definition of "insanity" quite well, e.g. doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Your CCW's and other such clap-trap are a government concession that still absolutely maintains their control over your former RTKBA and which further reinforces to the populace that the government has the constitutional authority to do the things that they do, when clearly they do not.
We do not "come back" from that, period. "Privilege" is now codified into the cement of "Constitutional Law", via the "Heller" case.
Go ahead and preach more acceptance of that which further erodes the Republic. Me, i'll just keep on shining the bright light of original intent and of the actual text of the Constitution onto such actions and onto the arguments posed by the "enablers" infesting the Republic.
You illustrate perfectly why many here, including myself, have such an issue with groups that purport to support the 2nd Amendment, yet are actually doing damage. As stated previously, working within the system only is progress if each endeavor results in the striking down of restrictive law as compared to simply modifying that law. That uncompromised position is not reflected by many self-described 2nd Amendment advocates.
The road toward freedom is a journey of education. For many, myself included, education sometimes only comes in the form of a blunt object firmly rapped between the eyes. With 20,000 laws in 5,000 jurisdictions, the actual job is local and is not overwhelming provided sufficient people are made aware of the differences between rights and privileges (as you point out). EDIT: As the numbers of these local successes (and there have been a few recently) increase, the process of this education will be made simpler. I do not hold out much hope for a firm and principled SCOTUS decision in my lifetime, though it is necessary for the continuation of our freedoms, and, because it is necessary, the optimist in me believes that it will eventually occur.
There should be a much greater resonance from those four simple lines written by Pickenup, but there is not. For many it will take that firm rap to the head to open their eyes. That is why the uncompromising and unyielding message must be broadcast loud and clear constantly and consistently. If it is not broadcast constantly it will most assuredly be drowned out by the compromised message that 90%+ of gun owners seem to accept as truth.
As you point out, it is that compromised message that has conditioned people to succumb to the emotion of the moment and thus the acceptance of those restrictions presented when under duress.
Brad Steele
From the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence:
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
From the Preamble to the Bill of Rights:
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
There is no compromising human rights. "That was then, this is now" does not apply; there is no "evolution" of the intrinsic rights that people are entitled to as members of a civilized society, they existed in 5000 BC and they will also exist in 5000 AD.
Citizens have the right to physically defend themselves from criminals, ALL of them - whether they wear a bandanna around their head or a Brooks Brothers suit, by whatever means necessary and with whatever tools they require to do so, not with whatever tools government allows them to use.
Of course, Progressives are well aware of all of this, thus their seizure of the control of the broadcast and print media and the educational system. Being secular humanist in nature, they believe that Man is the highest power, and government is the ultimate arbitrator of that power. To implement total government control they must first eliminate the idea that there is a higher power than government, thus the ongoing programming of the populace to believe that there is no God, that government is a benevolent, omnipresent "Uncle Sam" that knows what is best for all.
Yes. Exactly. The anti-gun side has a game plan that is hard to beat. They wait and they strike when the time is right. In comparison, the pro-gun pro 2nd side looks like they are just flailing away at everything that comes along. I don't think RTKBA people are very well organized. At leat not to the extent that the opposition is. I don't hear anything in any of these threads that even suggests a plan to get our rights back. What I do hear is a lot of name calling. A lot of "brave" talk about no cmpromise and that they will go down blazing when the knock comes at their door. What I don't hear are any real plans to try and do anything in the here and now. I am a member of a group here that works to protect 2nd rights and fights anti-gun legislation as it comes up at the state level. It's called the Madison Society. I do what I can to help. Donations and such. They recently won a case to keep one of the local Gun Stores open after they were attacked by ATF thugs and had a bunch lowers taken. The ATF tried to close these guys down on a bunch of phoney charges. They lost. Store still open. Thats a victory. Maybe we didn't get anything repealed, but no ground was lost either. AND, it was something positive and proactive rather than just sitting at a keyboard ranting and talking about revolution.
Don:
Yes. Exactly. The anti-gun side has a game plan that is hard to beat. They wait and they strike when the time is right. In comparison, the pro-gun pro 2nd side looks like they are just flailing away at everything that comes along. I don't think RTKBA people are very well organized. At leat not to the extent that the opposition is. I don't hear anything in any of these threads that even suggests a plan to get our rights back. What I do hear is a lot of name calling. A lot of "brave" talk about no cmpromise and that they will go down blazing when the knock comes at their door. What I don't hear are any real plans to try and do anything in the here and now. I am a member of a group here that works to protect 2nd rights and fights anti-gun legislation as it comes up at the state level. It's called the Madison Society. I do what I can to help. Donations and such. They recently won a case to keep one of the local Gun Stores open after they were attacked by ATF thugs and had a bunch lowers taken. The ATF tried to close these guys down on a bunch of phoney charges. They lost. Store still open. Thats a victory. Maybe we didn't get anything repealed, but no ground was lost either. AND, it was something positive and proactive rather than just sitting at a keyboard ranting and talking about revolution.
This is the kind of attitude I wish we had more of. A lot more of. This is the kind of "fighting" that, even under the present circumstances, makes sense.
Course the above does not sound as macho and exciting as what is usually preached on this forum.
By spending time, money, and effort, you kept a gun dealer in business.
Congratulations...you aided and abetted the Beast. The entire FFL structure OUGHT to be repugnant to thinking Americans...and IS.
The FFL is a construct of the Federal government, designed to force private business to do the job of collecting data for the Secret Police.
Most do it eagerly. People like you help them along, in their odious task. Even a brief thought, a tiny grasp of the Constitution would reveal that keeping records on gun owners is insane...if a free country is any part of your psyche.
I believe that nobody ought to EVER buy another weapon from a dealer.
I certainly understand your cheerleading section..lots of fuss and feathers generated, no real risks involved, and no change in the status quo. What is to dislike about your approach..at least for most folks ?
Naturally, you fawning disciples of gun control will be outraged by my stand...but what else is new ?
Yet one more example of why there is this deep chasm between you boys...and the Constitution.
TR Fox,, Thanks Man. We do what we can when we can.
I haven't heard of any "real risk" you have taken. But you sit there behind your keyboard and belittle the efforts of others. Yeah, thats real productive. You should be proud of your effort. Of the risk you seem to be takeing.
Gathering date forbidden to the government ?
No...I didn't think so.
One has to be smarter then the average, dumbed-down nra supporter to understand something so very basic.
One has to be really slow to not make such a simple, short leap of knowledge.
What have I done lately ? I have planted a seed in your mind. It may take ten years...but that seed will grow.
And IF gun dealers are as you say, then where do you buy your guns ?? Street corner thugs? Black market? No. I'm guessing you probably have and will continue to buy them from gun dealers like the rest of us.
What a Hypocrit. Oh and by the way. I don't support the NRA. Haven't for over ten years.
HB,,, Yeah ok farmer John. So basically, you haven't done anything except sit behind your keyboard. Wonderfull. Keep up the good work. But keep in mind that REAL progress and REAL gains are made by actually getting off your butt and doing something. Even if it's something small.
And IF gun dealers are as you say, then where do you buy your guns ?? Street corner thugs? Black market? No. I'm guessing you probably have and will continue to buy them from gun dealers like the rest of us.
What a Hypocrit. Oh and by the way. I don't support the NRA. Haven't for over ten years.
If he is anything like me he buys from individuals when he can.
Don:
Yes. Exactly. The anti-gun side has a game plan that is hard to beat. They wait and they strike when the time is right. In comparison, the pro-gun pro 2nd side looks like they are just flailing away at everything that comes along. I don't think RTKBA people are very well organized. At leat not to the extent that the opposition is. I don't hear anything in any of these threads that even suggests a plan to get our rights back. What I do hear is a lot of name calling. A lot of "brave" talk about no cmpromise and that they will go down blazing when the knock comes at their door. What I don't hear are any real plans to try and do anything in the here and now. I am a member of a group here that works to protect 2nd rights and fights anti-gun legislation as it comes up at the state level. It's called the Madison Society. I do what I can to help. Donations and such. They recently won a case to keep one of the local Gun Stores open after they were attacked by ATF thugs and had a bunch lowers taken. The ATF tried to close these guys down on a bunch of phoney charges. They lost. Store still open. Thats a victory. Maybe we didn't get anything repealed, but no ground was lost either. AND, it was something positive and proactive rather than just sitting at a keyboard ranting and talking about revolution.
45long:
Any victory that is clear and does not compromise one principle for another is a victory. In the case you noted, it is a victory for property rights and the rights of a businessman, but does not address the RTKBA. I applaud the Madison Society for assisting a businessman keep his business, but even after reviewing their website, cannot form an opinion as to whether I would agree with their total mission or not.
I have and will support efforts by groups and/or individuals for specific goals and support one group only unconditionally (so far). IMO, this is not simply a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not to be melodramatic, but supporting Stalin to defeat Hitler was a short-term expediency at best. Our desire for the quick fix eased our burden for a few years, but increased the burden on generations that followed. In many ways we are facing the same strategic decision today. If we cast our lot with the NRA and like minded folks, we may reach an equilibrium that will ebb and flow for a generation or two. In the end, however, we will be a country that respects freedom and liberty or we will not. If we accept compromises today, it will be our grandchildren that are forced to make that decision. The sooner we can move more gun owners and freedom lovers in general to the no-compromise side of the ledger, the smaller will be the burden our grandchildren will be forced to bear.
Brad Steele
There is revealed the mindset of the typical collectivist, Beast-Lover.
Either one buys from the Beast ..after crawling on your belly and begging...or you buy from criminals.
After all...only criminals sell guns off-paper.
What a crock of snit some people are.
The ONLY people in America today doing as the Second demands are Citizens selling, trading, and acquiring weapons off-paper. You don't seem to fit.
The other thing small, insignificant people harp upon ..'Who have you killed lately for the cause' line of crap...what a joke.
They themselves are so tiny and irrelevant they cannot CONCIEVE of the fact that it merely takes ONE man to change the course of events of history;
That reaching that one man and altering his blind devotion to big government, big business, Fascism/Socialism will be the deciding factor in the success...OR failure ..of the cause of freedom.
That while I myself am not that man ..something I might say may WELL trigger that one leader to do what is necessary to ensure the survival of America.
That it is my DUTY to try and reach that man...unlike the pzants that demand obedience to a false Constitution and a destructive course of action.
I may well not survive ..or be brave enough to fire that shot in anger.
But I damn well will die knowing that I never turned my back on the Founders....or preached a false doctrine to others about their words.
You talk a big game but your real short on substance. You talk crap about others that don't follow EXACTLY your view of the founding fathers ot their plan for the country. As though you have some magical insight to what that is. Oh and you don't. Your ideas are, while loosely based on founding principles are your idea of constitutional perfection and screw anyone that has a differeing opinion. Yeah thats a real constitutional ideal.
Well hey, good luck with the revolution. You keep sitting behind that keyboard and "planting seeds". Don't take any actual active participation, just keep planting. Thats what you seem to be "good" at. Maybe you should change your name to Johnny Apple Seed.
I am neither kind NOR generous to the enemies of freedom...and there is absolutely NOTHING symbolic about the ownership of weapons.
While weapons ARE a symbol of freedom ..without the free ownership, trading, and selling of them...we have a dictatorship.
I also must be amused at the little minds that INSIST that the ONLY two courses of action in America today is crawling on their bellies to Politicians, begging them to obey the Constitution...
and shooting people now, today.
I think there is another way. I practice it EVERY DAY...24/7. I live it, I breath it, I work on it.
Some day, when you are tired of crawling, you will understand what I am talking about. Of course...some people are more comfortable crawling.
quote:Maybe you should change your name to Johnny Apple Seed.
Johnny Appleseed, born John Chapman (September 26, 1774 - February 18, 1845), was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. He became an American legend while still alive, largely because of his kind and generous ways, his great leadership in conservation, and the symbolic importance of apples
HB,, You are so full of fertilizer it is astounding. On one hand you preach fire and brimstone, yet you do NOTHING to actually make a difference. Except to buy "off paper" Yeah right. Then you ridicule people who do actually do something(be it in a small way).
You talk a big game but your real short on substance. You talk crap about others that don't follow EXACTLY your view of the founding fathers ot their plan for the country. As though you have some magical insight to what that is. Oh and you don't. Your ideas are, while loosely based on founding principles are your idea of constitutional perfection and screw anyone that has a differeing opinion. Yeah thats a real constitutional ideal.
Well hey, good luck with the revolution. You keep sitting behind that keyboard and "planting seeds". Don't take any actual active participation, just keep planting. Thats what you seem to be "good" at. Maybe you should change your name to Johnny Apple Seed.
2+2=4
Is that your VIEW ??
There is a LARGE difference between FACTS and OPINIONS. You constantly point out Highballs "opinons" and "views", as if it were something he PULLED from thin air.
How about instead of YOU blowing hot air as usual, YOU point OUT with FACTS where his "views" about the second amendment are FACTUALLY wrong. If you can't, how about YOU shut your pie hole, as working with "comprimise" "in the system" has gotton us IN this mess to begin with.