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Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
So called "higher education" has been hi-jacked by the left that teaches U.S. Government as such: "Some people believe the 2nd Ammendment gives them the right to own guns". This is what your children are being and will be taught. If you have children, make certain you teach them, and do not allow the government schools to indoctrinate them into the new socialism. The Republic is dead and has been ever since we allowed them to change what was called the "Secound Article of the Bill of Rights" to the reffered to now "2nd Ammendment". "Articles" are fundemental and can not be changed; "ammendments" are and can be changed. The Secound Article of the Bill of Rights is at the very foundation of the Constitution and 2nd only to the Right of free speach but tied so closely as to insure each of these rights. Too many voters are not educated to the truth and have no idea of how our Republic was to have worked. Soon, these young voters will be running our government and put in place their misguided ideas of what our Bill of Rights and Constitution means. If any Patriots are still around, there might be a political skirmish or two, but in the end, they will have their socialist form a government and think they are better off for it. It is nice to think that things could put back in their place, but stop and think about how many folks are on welfare, social security, food stamps programs, illeagals with valid driver's licenses which allow them to vote, etc, etc. None of those folks will ever vote to go back to what was the original intent and form of our Government, and when a group such as The Minute Men go to our border to bring attention to a current "invasion" of our country, they are ridiculed. Patriots the likes of Pat Buchannon are sujected to having salad dressing tossed in their face by these misguided idiots. It appears we have lost the Republic.
the right to bare arms will never be taken away.
if it does that will be one of the many excuses
for a revolution or civil war by those who still believe in the constitution
parafrog: It can be taken away, and it probably will at some point. I doubt that Congress will pass a law stating that "All guns are now banned" but they have time on their side. "Assault Weapons" are first on the chopping block. They don't have to confiscate them either, all they have to do is ban the sale and/or transfer of them. That way a father can't pass it to his son, for example. When the dad dies, the Feds will show up, and helpful remove the weapon in question. Handguns will be next. Semi-Auto anything after that, and so on and so on.
Personally, I like the AR-15s and AKs. If other gun owners are willing to sell me out in an effort to keep their "hunting rifles" I'm not going to give a damn when the antis come for THEIR guns.
To paraphrase Ben Franklin: We must all hang together now, or we will all hang seperatly later.
I'm with HVoF on that hunter gun thing. That is really no different than pulling a man in front of you to block a shot meant for you. Despicable....
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
quote:Originally posted by jack85
TrFox;
just look at the native Indians,
...after 500+ years they're still kicking!
We gotta learn from them.
learn what? learn how to get reparations by building casinos, and then paying off legistators to make sure that reservations are the only place outside of nevada you can have full on casinos?
works for me...
course you've seen what the federalies did to the injuns 150 years ago... sure.. we can trust the feds....as far as confiscation theories... we have a new pope coming.. maybe he's the anti-christ.. he's the laying it wait guy that the christian bible talks about...
realistically, the thing that will cause massive weapon confiscation.. and enforcement by the police officers (policy enforcers) will be a bio terror attack... probably by our own government on us, in order to facilitate martial law.
ooo grand conspiracy i know...
think about it.. think of how it was after just 4 days of not allowing any sort of air travel... now think about implimenting no air travel and no state to state travel.. just close down the borders and do not allow travel without your "papers please comrade" .. we aren't that far from that now... just need an excuse like anthrax or ebola to complete it
the reason the military should not be involved in domestic issues, is because it creates the ideology that the citizens themselves are the enemy of the state. when that happens... gun ownership will be illegal.. just look at Iraq... the Iraqi's had more gun freedoms BEFORE the "benevolent invaders from the west" .
And YES, I know one does not have to justify gun ownership with hunting; but it is an indicator!
I own a dozen guns... though i suppose i *could* hunt with some of them.. none of them are designed to be hunting weapons.. they are ALL designed and purchased for the purpose of anti-personel.. as is all my ammunition, and when i practice on the range, i am not practicing to shoot for food, i am practicing to shoot 6 foot tall 4 foot wide moving targets.... they may well be animals.. but only because they want to take my freedom from me.
my idea of camping is taking an RV to an RV park with a hottub and cable... my idea of hunting is finding the best lookin cut at the meat counter... my idea of freedom is that if you want em.. you need to take some lessons in lead consumption.. the crash course.
Great point. I hate that we're relegated to the "lesser of 2 evils"
[/quote]
unfortunately enough people believe that so it becomes true. the better than two evils is the libertarian candidate.. but he'd need more people to believe its possible to screw with the two socialist parties in charge.
Originally posted by needmyguns
cold day in h/ll before they ever get mine
Now what will you do if:
#2: Feds learn you have guns and kick in your door, hold you and your family at gunpoint, handcuff all of you and demand to know where your guns are hidden. With the prospect of a 10 year prison sentence for when you tell them where your guns are hidden.
This is where i have the problem with the NRA and not the GOA... the NRA actively, and to a fault, supports the police... who the hell you think is going to kick in your door and handcuff you... THE POLICE.. whether they are federalies or locals.. they are the ENEMY OF A FREE PEOPLE. the NRA openly supports the police.. the police of course.. "are just doing their jobs" .. they have kids to feed.. they will actively enforce it.
how do i know? because the actively enforce the regulatory laws that are on the books now... even now, you get caught with a concealed gun and don't have a CCP.. they will confiscate your gun.. they may or may not take you to the iron hotel, and will turn you over to the local procecutor.. and that is in an allegedly progun state.
Police like power.. power attracts the corruptable. Granted, the anti gun forces don't like citizens with guns.. but neither do the police. they'd just as soon treat ANY gun carrier/owner as a leper during any police/citizen contact...
the NRA is not our friend, but the police friend.. until they stand up and make a distinction between the citizen, and the policy enforcers, i will not send them any more money.. i was a member for 8 years. .. when they (finally) impuned the BATF(E) i was a happy camper.. but when they backed off the original statement, and went out of their way to say that most cops are good... well fine.. then you can get your money from the cops... i'll join GOA.. and the local militia.
sorry if that sounded like a rant.. but .. it was
quote:Originally posted by IAMAHUSKER
I personally think that every offical should be held accountable for their VOTES. If said votes are found to be unconstitutional then they should be tried as a traitor and put to death!!!!!!!!!
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
and then hung in the local town square until sundown, as an example to the rest of the government pukes as to what could happen to them if they violated their mandates.
quote:Originally posted by Necrotism
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Originally posted by needmyguns
cold day in h/ll before they ever get mine
Now what will you do if:
#2: Feds learn you have guns and kick in your door, hold you and your family at gunpoint, handcuff all of you and demand to know where your guns are hidden. With the prospect of a 10 year prison sentence for when you tell them where your guns are hidden.
This is where i have the problem with the NRA and not the GOA... the NRA actively, and to a fault, supports the police... who the hell you think is going to kick in your door and handcuff you... THE POLICE.. whether they are federalies or locals.. they are the ENEMY OF A FREE PEOPLE. the NRA openly supports the police.. the police of course.. "are just doing their jobs" .. they have kids to feed.. they will actively enforce it.
how do i know? because the actively enforce the regulatory laws that are on the books now... even now, you get caught with a concealed gun and don't have a CCP.. they will confiscate your gun.. they may or may not take you to the iron hotel, and will turn you over to the local procecutor.. and that is in an allegedly progun state.
Police like power.. power attracts the corruptable. Granted, the anti gun forces don't like citizens with guns.. but neither do the police. they'd just as soon treat ANY gun carrier/owner as a leper during any police/citizen contact...
the NRA is not our friend, but the police friend.. until they stand up and make a distinction between the citizen, and the policy enforcers, i will not send them any more money.. i was a member for 8 years. .. when they (finally) impuned the BATF(E) i was a happy camper.. but when they backed off the original statement, and went out of their way to say that most cops are good... well fine.. then you can get your money from the cops... i'll join GOA.. and the local militia.
sorry if that sounded like a rant.. but .. it was
You didn't tell me exactly what you will do when the feds come to pry your fingers from your guns.
And with any fairly large organization like the NRA, people who just have to find a "reason" to bash the NRA can usually find some vague, naive reason. It is interesting that you can so easily find something you hate about the NRA but don't care to mention any of the numerous good things the NRA does for gun rights.
Kinda puts you on the same side of the dance as floor as Sarah Brady.
quote:
You didn't tell me exactly what you will do when the feds come to pry your fingers from your guns.
And with any fairly large organization like the NRA, people who just have to find a "reason" to bash the NRA can usually find some vague, naive reason. It is interesting that you can so easily find something you hate about the NRA but don't care to mention any of the numerous good things the NRA does for gun rights.
i'm not the same guy you asked the question to.. but because of the so called PATRIOT act.. i'm not inclined to be too specific.. but i did and do again admit that all my guns are designed to be anti-personel, not hunt for food. SS-109 is my friend.
NRA does neat thing for gun privileges, not rights. for instance in colorado fairly recently there were two bills in congress, one for a texas style concealed weapons permit system, and the other for a vermont style concealed carry law.... the NRA backed the more restrictive measure and abandoned the more proper law of the vermont style.
Similar things have happened when a STAUNCHLY pro-gun candidate runs for an office, the NRA backs the candidate that doesnt' mind some restrictions rather than the guy who wants none.
its like being "kinda pregnant" . there isn't any.. either you are pro private ownership and use of guns, or you are not. Sarah brady's crowd isn't for total bans on weapons.. just the mean looking onesn and the ones you can hide on your person.. they're more than happy to let you blast clay pigeons at an approved range with the proper license and registered locked up shot guns.
quote:Originally posted by Necrotism
quote:
You didn't tell me exactly what you will do when the feds come to pry your fingers from your guns.
And with any fairly large organization like the NRA, people who just have to find a "reason" to bash the NRA can usually find some vague, naive reason. It is interesting that you can so easily find something you hate about the NRA but don't care to mention any of the numerous good things the NRA does for gun rights.
i'm not the same guy you asked the question to.. You're right. Sorry for the error but because of the so called PATRIOT act.. i'm not inclined to be too specific..I agree and BTW, thanks for posting this honest and reasonable response to my post but i did and do again admit that all my guns are designed to be anti-personel, not hunt for food. SS-109 is my friend.
NRA does neat thing for gun privileges, not rights. for instance in colorado fairly recently there were two bills in congress, one for a texas style concealed weapons permit system, and the other for a vermont style concealed carry law.... the NRA backed the more restrictive measure and abandoned the more proper law of the vermont style.
Similar things have happened when a STAUNCHLY pro-gun candidate runs for an office, the NRA backs the candidate that doesnt' mind some restrictions rather than the guy who wants none.
its like being "kinda pregnant" . there isn't any.. either you are pro private ownership and use of guns, or you are not. The NRA is pro-private ownership of guns. Sarah brady's crowd isn't for total bans on weapons.. just the mean looking onesn and the ones you can hide on your person.. ALL guns look mean to Sarah Brady they're more than happy to let you blast clay pigeons at an approved range with the proper license and registered locked up shot guns.I assume and hope you are just being sarcastic towards Sarah Brady with this statement.
My friend, if you are a gun owner and gun rights supporter (as I am) then you and I and all other gun owners need to never, never forget that we have many, many enemies. Not only millions of our fellow average citizens who would wish to see our gun rights destroyed, but more dangerous adversaries who pose a great threat to us because those adversaries are rich, powerful and influential.
These powerful adversaries include, but are not limited to, the media (print and electronic), most people in education (especially colleges) and powerful legislators in BOTH parties.
The lone, average citizen has little or no chance to win the fight against such adversaries. Our only hope is when we citizens band together via national gun rights organizations and pool our money, time, effort and votes in an attempt to keep, and if possible, expand our gun rights. And BTW, these just mentioned adversaries consistantly indicate that the NRA is their biggest enemy.
That is good enough for me to continue supporting the NRA and a few other pro-gun rights groups (GOA among others). Let any and all such groups make occassional mistakes. Many such "mistakes" often are nothing more than lies that have been started by people who hate the NRA and are happy to try and cause it injury. But as long as ANY hard-working pro-gun group is making even LIMITED progress I will support that group.
Reason being is that you and I have way too few such groups working on our behalf. We are foolish if we try and destroy ANY even partially effective groups.
We have too few friends as it is. We can't afford to lose even one.
pickenup, I don't relate to your example, but I will try anyway.
I don't want to lose my arm OR my hand. But if for some strange and unusal reason I was forced into such a choice I would want BOTH groups fighting to help me.
Reason being that if the "save the whole arm/hand" group wins, then all is good. However, if that group loses, then I still MIGHT have a chance of at least saving my arm because of the efforts of "lose the hand, but save arm" group.
Pickenup, if in some bizarre situation you were in the clutches of a mad butcher and he gave you the choice of losing just your hand or your whole arm (and hand) I think you would chose to keep what ever you could.
I cannot imagine any intelligent person in such a situation saying "take the entire arm (and hand) or take nothing.
Beside, the NRA is not trying to save just the hand. They are trying to save the whole arm. Sure, the NRA does it in their own way. And if anyone here doesn't like the way they do it, then get active in the NRA and get elected to office and change things. Just as you would if you didn't like the way your local school board was running your schools or your councilman running your city.
In that case you wouldn't disolve and start over with your school district or city. If you didn't like the way things were going you would step in and get involved and change things to the way they should be.
Or you could start your own pro-gun organization and quickly learn that no matter what you do you are going to get constant criticism from some people.
How about just being happy for each and every pro-gun organization that is out there doing what they feel is right for them. The NRA is not the GOA and vice versa. If they were there would be no need to even have this conversation because we would be talking about only one organization.
Even if it were true that GOA was trying to save the arm AND hand, and the NRA ONLY the arm, at least the NRA is working to help, not harm that person facing the loss of an arm and/or hand.
People like Sen. Ted Kennedy, Sarah Brady, Sen. Barbara Boxer, Sen. Dianine Feinstein, etc., etc., are working night and day to take, not just your hand and/or arm, but BOTH HANDS/ARMS/LEGS AND FEET!
I am astounded and disappointed that I read so much criticism about the NRA, yet so little criticism of the above mentioned true enemies of gun owners.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
An absolute given is the fact that Fiendstein/Shumer/Brady HATE freedom.
What is not clear to most people is the extent that the NRA has sold out.
Merely demanding,often and loudly,that the fedgov enforce the gun laws is PLENTY enough for me to condemn the NRA....either they are actively working to disarm American citizens...or they are entirely too stupid to be worthy of the millions of dollars and support of said citizens.
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy. This isn't about a "mad butcher" holding me hostage and forcing me to make a choice. Its a little more complicated than that.
The biggest targets for anti-gun groups right now are "assault rifles", anyone care to debate that? These same "assault rifles" are the guns I enjoy most. I could care less about skeet shooting or benchrest rifle shooting. My point is that if skeet or benchrest guns were the big targets, I would give all support possible to their owners. These same owners seem to be increasing willing to give ground to the antis to save THEIR guns. After all, you don't really need an AK-47 to hunt deer, do you? They'll sell us out in due time, but when they need us to defend their guns, I for one won't be there
quote:Originally posted by Highball
An absolute given is the fact that Fiendstein/Shumer/Brady HATE freedom.
What is not clear to most people is the extent that the NRA has sold out. partially because of interactions such as this one, I closely watch the NRA. This is easy for me since I have and will worked inside as well as outside the NRA. during all this time I have not seen the NRA "sell out".
Merely demanding,often and loudly,that the fedgov enforce the gun laws is PLENTY enough for me to condemn the NRA perhaps such demanding is one way to help prevent further laws from being so quickly and easily passed. All the while trying to eliminate the present unfair laws. ....either they are actively working to disarm American citizens From "inside" I have seen the NRA trying to arm citizens, not disarm them ...or they are entirely too stupid to be worthy of the millions of dollars and support of said citizens. stupid or not is not the issue. The NRA does a tremendous amount of good. The fact that our biggest anti-gun enemies consider the NRA to be THEIR biggest enemy is good enough endorsement of the NRA for me.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy. This isn't about a "mad butcher" holding me hostage and forcing me to make a choice. Its a little more complicated than that.
The biggest targets for anti-gun groups right now are "assault rifles", anyone care to debate that? These same "assault rifles" are the guns I enjoy most. I could care less about skeet shooting or benchrest rifle shooting. My point is that if skeet or benchrest guns were the big targets, I would give all support possible to their owners. These same owners seem to be increasing willing to give ground to the antis to save THEIR guns. After all, you don't really need an AK-47 to hunt deer, do you? They'll sell us out in due time, but when they need us to defend their guns, I for one won't be there
Molon Labe
In regards to the "hand/arm thing" I merely worked with what was thrown at me.
And presently we are merely discussing the NRA. Most everyone here agrees with your logic about so-called "assault weapons" being unfairly and presently targeted.
BTW, what have you done/been doing to hang onto your gun rights?
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
First off, I'll be honest and say that I'm not an NRA member, nor do I belong to any pro-gun group that accepts dues. That is merely a question of finances, I'm a poor college kid and I have bills to pay. At this point an NRA, GOA or any other membership is simply something I can not afford. I was an NRA member when I was in the military, and had extra money. When I get out of school I plan on renewing my memberships.
My ways of defending my rights are voting and talking to people. I have yet to miss an election, and I work hard to try to convince people to my way of thinking. I've converted several people to our side, and that is a hell of a lot better than alot of people can say.
BTW, I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping down your throat over the hand/arm thing, just trying to point out it was not a good analogy in this situation.
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy.
Why?
They want to take ALL of your guns...(the arm)
They gave them the machine guns...(the hand) or soon, maybe the "assault" weapons?
Of course it is more complicated.
I knew some would try to take it literally. [:(]
The question was, "Which group would you give more support to?"
I will give MORE support to the group that wants to save the whole arm, thank you very much.
I am astounded and disappointed that I read so much criticism about the NRA, yet so little criticism of the above mentioned true enemies of gun owners.
i think the reason for that is the fact that we KNOW where the brady types stand.. they dont' want anyone but themselves and the government to have guns....
but we DON'T KNOW where the NRA is going to come down on various issues.. sometimes they are pro-gun, sometimes they are pro-government... its very difficult to be both... for instance, the NRA openly advocates strigent enforcement of the current federal gun laws.... THOSE ARE BAD LAWS!! most likely they are unconstitutional, as the federal government has no police powers inherent in the constitution.. so they made them up.
I do not want to see federal laws enforced.
I do not want to read about some kid who was selling minor amounts of pot to an undercover officer get a FIFTY YEAR SENTENCE because he happened to be carrying a gun while he did it... mandatory minimum sentence.. RA RA RA NRA!
whether or not you believe that selling "illegal" drugs should or shouldn't be a crime.. should it be an "extra" crime because a gun is being carried?
THAT is why the NRA is a big question mark... kinda like our emperor George W... he's an unknown factor... we KNOW where wannabe emperor Algorethym stood on guns etc.. more power more control more regulation more taxes more more more.... but with our Current Emperor.. you just don't know ... they talk a good game about less government and less regulation and more freedom.. but then they pass the so-called patriot act.. they keep prisoners without trial , they exponentially expand the power of the federal government... sure.. it doesn't really affect me now.... but wait til the next hilary clinton gets in power, and HAS that power.. how will THEY use it? WHO will THEY decide is an enemy of the state?
If the 2nd amendment was interpreted as broadly as the 1st amendment, 6th graders would be getting guns from the schools as tokens of graduation!
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
First off, I'll be honest and say that I'm not an NRA member, nor do I belong to any pro-gun group that accepts dues. That is merely a question of finances, I'm a poor college kid and I have bills to pay. At this point an NRA, GOA or any other membership is simply something I can not afford. I was an NRA member when I was in the military, and had extra money. When I get out of school I plan on renewing my memberships.
My ways of defending my rights are voting and talking to people. I have yet to miss an election, and I work hard to try to convince people to my way of thinking. I've converted several people to our side, and that is a hell of a lot better than alot of people can say.
BTW, I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping down your throat over the hand/arm thing, just trying to point out it was not a good analogy in this situation.
Molon Labe
You sound OK to me. Keep up what you are doing. I can relate to not having the funds to join the NRA, etc., as if my daughter had to pay her own way, instead of me paying for her and for her son, she probably couldn't/wouldn't do it.
However, not to lecture you in particular, but here is what I would tell my daughter if she said she was going to let her NRA membership expire because she couldn't afford it.
I would tell her that if she can afford a gun club membership, or several boxes of ammo per year, or a new or used gun each year, or all the booze and cigarettes she cares to have, THEN SHE CAN AFFORD THE $25.00 DISCOUNTED NRA MEMBERSHIP.
And BTW, you can join the Gun Owners of America for just about any reasonable amount you throw at them. In your case try $15-$20 and they make you a full member and they are able to show yet another dues paying member on their roster which helps give them clout with legislators, etc. And you get the newsletter, and other mailing, etc.
Just a suggestion.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
quote:Originally posted by Necrotism
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I am astounded and disappointed that I read so much criticism about the NRA, yet so little criticism of the above mentioned true enemies of gun owners.
i think the reason for that is the fact that we KNOW where the brady types stand.. they dont' want anyone but themselves and the government to have guns....
but we DON'T KNOW where the NRA is going to come down on various issues.. sometimes they are pro-gun, sometimes they are pro-government... its very difficult to be both... for instance, the NRA openly advocates strigent enforcement of the current federal gun laws.... THOSE ARE BAD LAWS!! most likely they are unconstitutional, as the federal government has no police powers inherent in the constitution.. so they made them up.
I do not want to see federal laws enforced.
I do not want to read about some kid who was selling minor amounts of pot to an undercover officer get a FIFTY YEAR SENTENCE because he happened to be carrying a gun while he did it... mandatory minimum sentence.. RA RA RA NRA!
whether or not you believe that selling "illegal" drugs should or shouldn't be a crime.. should it be an "extra" crime because a gun is being carried?
THAT is why the NRA is a big question mark... kinda like our emperor George W... he's an unknown factor... we KNOW where wannabe emperor Algorethym stood on guns etc.. more power more control more regulation more taxes more more more.... but with our Current Emperor.. you just don't know ... they talk a good game about less government and less regulation and more freedom.. but then they pass the so-called patriot act.. they keep prisoners without trial , they exponentially expand the power of the federal government... sure.. it doesn't really affect me now.... but wait til the next hilary clinton gets in power, and HAS that power.. how will THEY use it? WHO will THEY decide is an enemy of the state?
If the 2nd amendment was interpreted as broadly as the 1st amendment, 6th graders would be getting guns from the schools as tokens of graduation!
Jeeze man, calm down before you give yourself a heart-attack. We can't afford to lose any gun owners such as yourself. Besides, I thought we were just debating whether or not the NRA was good or bad for gun rights.
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy.
Why?
They want to take ALL of your guns...(the arm)
They gave them the machine guns...(the hand) or soon, maybe the "assault" weapons?
Of course it is more complicated.
I knew some would try to take it literally. [:(]
The question was, "Which group would you give more support to?"
I will give MORE support to the group that wants to save the whole arm, thank you very much.
If it only cost me $25.00 to "give support to" the group (GOA) who you say wants to save my whole arm and hand and only $25.00 to "give support to" the group (NRA)who you say only wants to save my arm (not the hand) then I would and could easily cover all the bases by giving support to both groups
HAHAHAHHAHA! Gottcha good on that one Pickenup.
(come on admit it. You know I did get you good)
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
I will not try to talk anyone here out of any belief that they might have about the goodness or badness of the NRA.
But I will say that we pro-gun people need all the friends we can get. If anyone here wants to dispute that fact to me, save your time. Because that one fact is undisputable and I truly believe everyone here knows that.
So go ahead and hate the NRA. Just don't stop there. Join and support some other pro-gun right group. And since you think the NRA isn't doing right by you, practice that old adage about "if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all". Just leave the NRA alone to do what it can.
I find it hard to believe that any reasonable person truly thinks the NRA is damaging gun rights. So even if the NRA is only doing a SMALL amount of help, that is still help. We can't afford to lose that small amount of help or any other help we might be getting We need to appreciate and if not support, at least not attack anyone and everyone who is helping even the smallest amount.
And beside the NRA is a whole lot better than some here claim. To make my argument a little easier (I'm tired tonight) I'm going to break my own rule and talk critically about the GOA.
Many here crow about how the GOA (I'm a loyal dues paying member BTW) is a "no compromise" organization. Well, sometimes "no compromise" is just plain dumb. Take the 1994 Clinton so-called "assault weapons ban". When the opponents of that ban saw that they had no chance of stopping that ban, they were smart enough to get a "compromise" through in that the ban automatically expired excactly 10 years from the date of it becoming effective. That "compromise" is the one, only and sole reason we do not have the "assault weapons ban today
Even though for now at least we pro-gun people have gotten temporarily lucky and have a lot of strength on the federal level (not so strong on some state levels). But even at that, if the AWB hadn't expired, there is no way we have the strength to have forced it out of existance.
Plus, I live on the MO-KS line so I keep up with gun rights in both states. MO finally got a CCW law last year after years of fighting. Each time they got close to getting the CCW in MO all the opponents publically blamed the NRA. When the MO CCW law passed the opponents blamed the NRA. Never even a hint of mention about the GOA or any other pro-gun group in regards to getting the CCW passed.
With the exception of KS not yet having a CCW I have personally observed the very same thing that I just described happening in MO happen in KS
Now folks, if you believe me on this, and you are welcome to check into it via old newspaper articles, etc. why, oh why would anyone here locally in KS or MO want to see any harm come to the NRA?
I could tell you many, many other stories, especially from my view point as a committe member of the "Friends of the NRA" non-profit fund raising, etc., but I frankly don't have the time or energy.
Plus in many cases regarding the view points so often expressed here I feel I am just beating my head against the wall.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
OK, I concede to you all about the hand/arm thing...maybe it does make sense
I wholeheartedly agree with the point that we need all the friends we can get. I am glad there are groups out there like the Pink Pistols and the Second Amendment Sisters. These groups broaden our appeal. Appealing to groups other than straight, white men is our only chance of winning...
How many fairies can dance on the head of a pin? Does any of
this banter really matter? They will do what they want to do.
The massah always get his way!
Lords, Ladies and serfs. Guess who be de serfs? The only rights left
are to die in a foreign land for da massah, and to pay high taxes.
The massah still own everyting here, and if'n you don't believe me,
try not paying your taxes and see what they take instead.
TR, I'm sorry pal...but the leaders of the NRA don't want the
debate to end anytime soon, just like Sarah Brady. They all need
the incomes.
I've become so delusioned with the damned Republic, I've moved to New Zealand. I didn't intend to...it's just some butthead told me if I
could find a better place to live..to go there...so I did!
I can see where you are coming from D.K, but I think I'll stick around the U.S of A.....we need like minded people to STAY. Let the gun grabbers go elsewhere.
D.K: I doubt if any SWAT teams are going to be kicking in my doors during my lifetime, not because I have so much faith in the system, but because the risk to the cops themselves. What cop in his right mind is going to kick in the door of someones house (who may actually be better armed than they are) and shoot it out with someone who KNOWS they are coming. Even if he does survive that raid, he'll have to do another, and another, and another because there are a hell of a lot of guns out there.....Who the hell is going to do that?
Even if in the entire US, there were only 1000 people willing to fight it out, could you imagine the chaos 1000 police shootouts across America would cause??? Nope, the other side has time on their side and they'll use it. While I'm confident that that my guns will never be seized due to the passing of a law, I fear that my children will never enjoy the same rights I have.
I'm just trying to use logic, nothing more. The antis want an end to "gun violence", starting a massive kick-in-the-door campaign would only make things worse for them. There are something like 70 million gun onwners in America. Even if only 1% resisted, there would be 700,000 Americans shooting at those coming to take their guns.
The above scenerio is a disaster for everyone, the other side knows this. Things will go nice and slowly. Guns will be registered, sales and transfers will be made illegal, and within a generation they will have accomplished their goals.
The only way to stop it is by VOTING, and spreading our appeal. If everyone could find just one new person and take them to the range, alot of our problems would be fixed right there. Instead, some people adopt a "from my cold dead hands" philosophy and insulate themselves. I'm as guilty as anyone, in case you handn't noticed my signiture on the bottom left of this box. Gun Owners need to use the BALLOT box now, instead of telling everyone how they are going to use the Ammo Box later
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
I'm just trying to use logic, nothing more. The antis want an end to "gun violence", starting a massive kick-in-the-door campaign would only make things worse for them. There are something like 70 million gun onwners in America. Even if only 1% resisted, there would be 700,000 Americans shooting at those coming to take their guns.
The above scenerio is a disaster for everyone, the other side knows this. Things will go nice and slowly. Guns will be registered, sales and transfers will be made illegal, and within a generation they will have accomplished their goals.
The only way to stop it is by VOTING, and spreading our appeal. If everyone could find just one new person and take them to the range, alot of our problems would be fixed right there. Instead, some people adopt a "from my cold dead hands" philosophy and insulate themselves. I'm as guilty as anyone, in case you handn't noticed my signiture on the bottom left of this box. Gun Owners need to use the BALLOT box now, instead of telling everyone how they are going to use the Ammo Box later
Molon Labe
There is some very good stuff in the above post that I like. A lot.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
This is incorrect. They only want you to cave to their will, in an effort to make you equal to them, so they can gather together and force some more stuff on you. It will not matter to them if every single one of us is rounded up and shot, I guaran-damn-tee it.
quote:The only way to stop it is by VOTING,
Wrong again. The only way to stop it is to refuse to comply. Sure, you can play the soft war game by voting, but what good is a law that is so horrendously wrong that no one is inclined to follow it. That is why there is no Prohibition, anymore.
quote:If everyone could find just one new person and take them to the range, alot of our problems would be fixed right there.
OK, now there is a lot of truth to this, and it is actually a far more effective way to ensure future generations have this same right. Teach your kids, or someone else will, and you won't be happy about it.
quote:some people adopt a "from my cold dead hands" philosophy and insulate themselves.
This is as necessary as the other things. The message has to be that we will not sack our rights merely because 51% or more of the population are a bunch of dumb@$$#$. This, all by itself, though, is not going far enough.
Look, this wasn't a flame, but you guys need to think about what I'm saying here, because vigilance does not involve voting now and taking orders later. Sometimes, you have no good choices, like me... both of my Republican Senators, and the Governor are all antigun liberals at heart, and the Democrats who wish to unseat them are even worse.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Comments
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
if it does that will be one of the many excuses
for a revolution or civil war by those who still believe in the constitution
scout sniper instructor usmc
Personally, I like the AR-15s and AKs. If other gun owners are willing to sell me out in an effort to keep their "hunting rifles" I'm not going to give a damn when the antis come for THEIR guns.
To paraphrase Ben Franklin: We must all hang together now, or we will all hang seperatly later.
Molon Labe
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."
TrFox;
just look at the native Indians,
...after 500+ years they're still kicking!
We gotta learn from them.
learn what? learn how to get reparations by building casinos, and then paying off legistators to make sure that reservations are the only place outside of nevada you can have full on casinos?
works for me...
course you've seen what the federalies did to the injuns 150 years ago... sure.. we can trust the feds....as far as confiscation theories... we have a new pope coming.. maybe he's the anti-christ.. he's the laying it wait guy that the christian bible talks about...
realistically, the thing that will cause massive weapon confiscation.. and enforcement by the police officers (policy enforcers) will be a bio terror attack... probably by our own government on us, in order to facilitate martial law.
ooo grand conspiracy i know...
think about it.. think of how it was after just 4 days of not allowing any sort of air travel... now think about implimenting no air travel and no state to state travel.. just close down the borders and do not allow travel without your "papers please comrade" .. we aren't that far from that now... just need an excuse like anthrax or ebola to complete it
the reason the military should not be involved in domestic issues, is because it creates the ideology that the citizens themselves are the enemy of the state. when that happens... gun ownership will be illegal.. just look at Iraq... the Iraqi's had more gun freedoms BEFORE the "benevolent invaders from the west" .
Hunting is already on a HUGE downswing in PA.
And YES, I know one does not have to justify gun ownership with hunting; but it is an indicator!
I own a dozen guns... though i suppose i *could* hunt with some of them.. none of them are designed to be hunting weapons.. they are ALL designed and purchased for the purpose of anti-personel.. as is all my ammunition, and when i practice on the range, i am not practicing to shoot for food, i am practicing to shoot 6 foot tall 4 foot wide moving targets.... they may well be animals.. but only because they want to take my freedom from me.
my idea of camping is taking an RV to an RV park with a hottub and cable... my idea of hunting is finding the best lookin cut at the meat counter... my idea of freedom is that if you want em.. you need to take some lessons in lead consumption.. the crash course.
Great point. I hate that we're relegated to the "lesser of 2 evils"
[/quote]
unfortunately enough people believe that so it becomes true. the better than two evils is the libertarian candidate.. but he'd need more people to believe its possible to screw with the two socialist parties in charge.
I personally think that every offical should be held accountable for their VOTES. If said votes are found to be unconstitutional then they should be tried as a traitor and put to death!!!!!!!!!
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
and then hung in the local town square until sundown, as an example to the rest of the government pukes as to what could happen to them if they violated their mandates.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
You didn't tell me exactly what you will do when the feds come to pry your fingers from your guns.
And with any fairly large organization like the NRA, people who just have to find a "reason" to bash the NRA can usually find some vague, naive reason. It is interesting that you can so easily find something you hate about the NRA but don't care to mention any of the numerous good things the NRA does for gun rights.
i'm not the same guy you asked the question to.. but because of the so called PATRIOT act.. i'm not inclined to be too specific.. but i did and do again admit that all my guns are designed to be anti-personel, not hunt for food. SS-109 is my friend.
NRA does neat thing for gun privileges, not rights. for instance in colorado fairly recently there were two bills in congress, one for a texas style concealed weapons permit system, and the other for a vermont style concealed carry law.... the NRA backed the more restrictive measure and abandoned the more proper law of the vermont style.
Similar things have happened when a STAUNCHLY pro-gun candidate runs for an office, the NRA backs the candidate that doesnt' mind some restrictions rather than the guy who wants none.
its like being "kinda pregnant" . there isn't any.. either you are pro private ownership and use of guns, or you are not. Sarah brady's crowd isn't for total bans on weapons.. just the mean looking onesn and the ones you can hide on your person.. they're more than happy to let you blast clay pigeons at an approved range with the proper license and registered locked up shot guns.
quote:
You didn't tell me exactly what you will do when the feds come to pry your fingers from your guns.
And with any fairly large organization like the NRA, people who just have to find a "reason" to bash the NRA can usually find some vague, naive reason. It is interesting that you can so easily find something you hate about the NRA but don't care to mention any of the numerous good things the NRA does for gun rights.
i'm not the same guy you asked the question to.. You're right. Sorry for the error but because of the so called PATRIOT act.. i'm not inclined to be too specific..I agree and BTW, thanks for posting this honest and reasonable response to my post but i did and do again admit that all my guns are designed to be anti-personel, not hunt for food. SS-109 is my friend.
NRA does neat thing for gun privileges, not rights. for instance in colorado fairly recently there were two bills in congress, one for a texas style concealed weapons permit system, and the other for a vermont style concealed carry law.... the NRA backed the more restrictive measure and abandoned the more proper law of the vermont style.
Similar things have happened when a STAUNCHLY pro-gun candidate runs for an office, the NRA backs the candidate that doesnt' mind some restrictions rather than the guy who wants none.
its like being "kinda pregnant" . there isn't any.. either you are pro private ownership and use of guns, or you are not. The NRA is pro-private ownership of guns. Sarah brady's crowd isn't for total bans on weapons.. just the mean looking onesn and the ones you can hide on your person.. ALL guns look mean to Sarah Brady they're more than happy to let you blast clay pigeons at an approved range with the proper license and registered locked up shot guns.I assume and hope you are just being sarcastic towards Sarah Brady with this statement.
My friend, if you are a gun owner and gun rights supporter (as I am) then you and I and all other gun owners need to never, never forget that we have many, many enemies. Not only millions of our fellow average citizens who would wish to see our gun rights destroyed, but more dangerous adversaries who pose a great threat to us because those adversaries are rich, powerful and influential.
These powerful adversaries include, but are not limited to, the media (print and electronic), most people in education (especially colleges) and powerful legislators in BOTH parties.
The lone, average citizen has little or no chance to win the fight against such adversaries. Our only hope is when we citizens band together via national gun rights organizations and pool our money, time, effort and votes in an attempt to keep, and if possible, expand our gun rights. And BTW, these just mentioned adversaries consistantly indicate that the NRA is their biggest enemy.
That is good enough for me to continue supporting the NRA and a few other pro-gun rights groups (GOA among others). Let any and all such groups make occassional mistakes. Many such "mistakes" often are nothing more than lies that have been started by people who hate the NRA and are happy to try and cause it injury. But as long as ANY hard-working pro-gun group is making even LIMITED progress I will support that group.
Reason being is that you and I have way too few such groups working on our behalf. We are foolish if we try and destroy ANY even partially effective groups.
We have too few friends as it is. We can't afford to lose even one.
JMHO
The government is going to pass a new bill. The bill says that they want to take one of your arms completely off.
There are two groups opposing this bill. One group fights to save the WHOLE arm. The other group says, how about just cutting off the hand?
Which group would you give more support to?
The gene pool needs chlorine.
I don't want to lose my arm OR my hand. But if for some strange and unusal reason I was forced into such a choice I would want BOTH groups fighting to help me.
Reason being that if the "save the whole arm/hand" group wins, then all is good. However, if that group loses, then I still MIGHT have a chance of at least saving my arm because of the efforts of "lose the hand, but save arm" group.
Pickenup, if in some bizarre situation you were in the clutches of a mad butcher and he gave you the choice of losing just your hand or your whole arm (and hand) I think you would chose to keep what ever you could.
I cannot imagine any intelligent person in such a situation saying "take the entire arm (and hand) or take nothing.
Beside, the NRA is not trying to save just the hand. They are trying to save the whole arm. Sure, the NRA does it in their own way. And if anyone here doesn't like the way they do it, then get active in the NRA and get elected to office and change things. Just as you would if you didn't like the way your local school board was running your schools or your councilman running your city.
In that case you wouldn't disolve and start over with your school district or city. If you didn't like the way things were going you would step in and get involved and change things to the way they should be.
Or you could start your own pro-gun organization and quickly learn that no matter what you do you are going to get constant criticism from some people.
How about just being happy for each and every pro-gun organization that is out there doing what they feel is right for them. The NRA is not the GOA and vice versa. If they were there would be no need to even have this conversation because we would be talking about only one organization.
Even if it were true that GOA was trying to save the arm AND hand, and the NRA ONLY the arm, at least the NRA is working to help, not harm that person facing the loss of an arm and/or hand.
People like Sen. Ted Kennedy, Sarah Brady, Sen. Barbara Boxer, Sen. Dianine Feinstein, etc., etc., are working night and day to take, not just your hand and/or arm, but BOTH HANDS/ARMS/LEGS AND FEET!
I am astounded and disappointed that I read so much criticism about the NRA, yet so little criticism of the above mentioned true enemies of gun owners.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
What is not clear to most people is the extent that the NRA has sold out.
Merely demanding,often and loudly,that the fedgov enforce the gun laws is PLENTY enough for me to condemn the NRA....either they are actively working to disarm American citizens...or they are entirely too stupid to be worthy of the millions of dollars and support of said citizens.
The biggest targets for anti-gun groups right now are "assault rifles", anyone care to debate that? These same "assault rifles" are the guns I enjoy most. I could care less about skeet shooting or benchrest rifle shooting. My point is that if skeet or benchrest guns were the big targets, I would give all support possible to their owners. These same owners seem to be increasing willing to give ground to the antis to save THEIR guns. After all, you don't really need an AK-47 to hunt deer, do you? They'll sell us out in due time, but when they need us to defend their guns, I for one won't be there
Molon Labe
An absolute given is the fact that Fiendstein/Shumer/Brady HATE freedom.
What is not clear to most people is the extent that the NRA has sold out. partially because of interactions such as this one, I closely watch the NRA. This is easy for me since I have and will worked inside as well as outside the NRA. during all this time I have not seen the NRA "sell out".
Merely demanding,often and loudly,that the fedgov enforce the gun laws is PLENTY enough for me to condemn the NRA perhaps such demanding is one way to help prevent further laws from being so quickly and easily passed. All the while trying to eliminate the present unfair laws. ....either they are actively working to disarm American citizens From "inside" I have seen the NRA trying to arm citizens, not disarm them ...or they are entirely too stupid to be worthy of the millions of dollars and support of said citizens. stupid or not is not the issue. The NRA does a tremendous amount of good. The fact that our biggest anti-gun enemies consider the NRA to be THEIR biggest enemy is good enough endorsement of the NRA for me.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy. This isn't about a "mad butcher" holding me hostage and forcing me to make a choice. Its a little more complicated than that.
The biggest targets for anti-gun groups right now are "assault rifles", anyone care to debate that? These same "assault rifles" are the guns I enjoy most. I could care less about skeet shooting or benchrest rifle shooting. My point is that if skeet or benchrest guns were the big targets, I would give all support possible to their owners. These same owners seem to be increasing willing to give ground to the antis to save THEIR guns. After all, you don't really need an AK-47 to hunt deer, do you? They'll sell us out in due time, but when they need us to defend their guns, I for one won't be there
Molon Labe
In regards to the "hand/arm thing" I merely worked with what was thrown at me.
And presently we are merely discussing the NRA. Most everyone here agrees with your logic about so-called "assault weapons" being unfairly and presently targeted.
BTW, what have you done/been doing to hang onto your gun rights?
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
My ways of defending my rights are voting and talking to people. I have yet to miss an election, and I work hard to try to convince people to my way of thinking. I've converted several people to our side, and that is a hell of a lot better than alot of people can say.
BTW, I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping down your throat over the hand/arm thing, just trying to point out it was not a good analogy in this situation.
Molon Labe
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy.
Why?
They want to take ALL of your guns...(the arm)
They gave them the machine guns...(the hand) or soon, maybe the "assault" weapons?
Of course it is more complicated.
I knew some would try to take it literally. [:(]
The question was, "Which group would you give more support to?"
I will give MORE support to the group that wants to save the whole arm, thank you very much.
The gene pool needs chlorine.
I am astounded and disappointed that I read so much criticism about the NRA, yet so little criticism of the above mentioned true enemies of gun owners.
i think the reason for that is the fact that we KNOW where the brady types stand.. they dont' want anyone but themselves and the government to have guns....
but we DON'T KNOW where the NRA is going to come down on various issues.. sometimes they are pro-gun, sometimes they are pro-government... its very difficult to be both... for instance, the NRA openly advocates strigent enforcement of the current federal gun laws.... THOSE ARE BAD LAWS!! most likely they are unconstitutional, as the federal government has no police powers inherent in the constitution.. so they made them up.
I do not want to see federal laws enforced.
I do not want to read about some kid who was selling minor amounts of pot to an undercover officer get a FIFTY YEAR SENTENCE because he happened to be carrying a gun while he did it... mandatory minimum sentence.. RA RA RA NRA!
whether or not you believe that selling "illegal" drugs should or shouldn't be a crime.. should it be an "extra" crime because a gun is being carried?
THAT is why the NRA is a big question mark... kinda like our emperor George W... he's an unknown factor... we KNOW where wannabe emperor Algorethym stood on guns etc.. more power more control more regulation more taxes more more more.... but with our Current Emperor.. you just don't know ... they talk a good game about less government and less regulation and more freedom.. but then they pass the so-called patriot act.. they keep prisoners without trial , they exponentially expand the power of the federal government... sure.. it doesn't really affect me now.... but wait til the next hilary clinton gets in power, and HAS that power.. how will THEY use it? WHO will THEY decide is an enemy of the state?
If the 2nd amendment was interpreted as broadly as the 1st amendment, 6th graders would be getting guns from the schools as tokens of graduation!
First off, I'll be honest and say that I'm not an NRA member, nor do I belong to any pro-gun group that accepts dues. That is merely a question of finances, I'm a poor college kid and I have bills to pay. At this point an NRA, GOA or any other membership is simply something I can not afford. I was an NRA member when I was in the military, and had extra money. When I get out of school I plan on renewing my memberships.
My ways of defending my rights are voting and talking to people. I have yet to miss an election, and I work hard to try to convince people to my way of thinking. I've converted several people to our side, and that is a hell of a lot better than alot of people can say.
BTW, I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping down your throat over the hand/arm thing, just trying to point out it was not a good analogy in this situation.
Molon Labe
You sound OK to me. Keep up what you are doing. I can relate to not having the funds to join the NRA, etc., as if my daughter had to pay her own way, instead of me paying for her and for her son, she probably couldn't/wouldn't do it.
However, not to lecture you in particular, but here is what I would tell my daughter if she said she was going to let her NRA membership expire because she couldn't afford it.
I would tell her that if she can afford a gun club membership, or several boxes of ammo per year, or a new or used gun each year, or all the booze and cigarettes she cares to have, THEN SHE CAN AFFORD THE $25.00 DISCOUNTED NRA MEMBERSHIP.
And BTW, you can join the Gun Owners of America for just about any reasonable amount you throw at them. In your case try $15-$20 and they make you a full member and they are able to show yet another dues paying member on their roster which helps give them clout with legislators, etc. And you get the newsletter, and other mailing, etc.
Just a suggestion.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
I am astounded and disappointed that I read so much criticism about the NRA, yet so little criticism of the above mentioned true enemies of gun owners.
i think the reason for that is the fact that we KNOW where the brady types stand.. they dont' want anyone but themselves and the government to have guns....
but we DON'T KNOW where the NRA is going to come down on various issues.. sometimes they are pro-gun, sometimes they are pro-government... its very difficult to be both... for instance, the NRA openly advocates strigent enforcement of the current federal gun laws.... THOSE ARE BAD LAWS!! most likely they are unconstitutional, as the federal government has no police powers inherent in the constitution.. so they made them up.
I do not want to see federal laws enforced.
I do not want to read about some kid who was selling minor amounts of pot to an undercover officer get a FIFTY YEAR SENTENCE because he happened to be carrying a gun while he did it... mandatory minimum sentence.. RA RA RA NRA!
whether or not you believe that selling "illegal" drugs should or shouldn't be a crime.. should it be an "extra" crime because a gun is being carried?
THAT is why the NRA is a big question mark... kinda like our emperor George W... he's an unknown factor... we KNOW where wannabe emperor Algorethym stood on guns etc.. more power more control more regulation more taxes more more more.... but with our Current Emperor.. you just don't know ... they talk a good game about less government and less regulation and more freedom.. but then they pass the so-called patriot act.. they keep prisoners without trial , they exponentially expand the power of the federal government... sure.. it doesn't really affect me now.... but wait til the next hilary clinton gets in power, and HAS that power.. how will THEY use it? WHO will THEY decide is an enemy of the state?
If the 2nd amendment was interpreted as broadly as the 1st amendment, 6th graders would be getting guns from the schools as tokens of graduation!
Jeeze man, calm down before you give yourself a heart-attack. We can't afford to lose any gun owners such as yourself. Besides, I thought we were just debating whether or not the NRA was good or bad for gun rights.
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
The whole hand/arm thing is a bad analogy.
Why?
They want to take ALL of your guns...(the arm)
They gave them the machine guns...(the hand) or soon, maybe the "assault" weapons?
Of course it is more complicated.
I knew some would try to take it literally. [:(]
The question was, "Which group would you give more support to?"
I will give MORE support to the group that wants to save the whole arm, thank you very much.
If it only cost me $25.00 to "give support to" the group (GOA) who you say wants to save my whole arm and hand and only $25.00 to "give support to" the group (NRA)who you say only wants to save my arm (not the hand) then I would and could easily cover all the bases by giving support to both groups
HAHAHAHHAHA! Gottcha good on that one Pickenup.
(come on admit it. You know I did get you good)
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
I will not try to talk anyone here out of any belief that they might have about the goodness or badness of the NRA.
But I will say that we pro-gun people need all the friends we can get. If anyone here wants to dispute that fact to me, save your time. Because that one fact is undisputable and I truly believe everyone here knows that.
So go ahead and hate the NRA. Just don't stop there. Join and support some other pro-gun right group. And since you think the NRA isn't doing right by you, practice that old adage about "if you can't say anything good about someone, don't say anything at all". Just leave the NRA alone to do what it can.
I find it hard to believe that any reasonable person truly thinks the NRA is damaging gun rights. So even if the NRA is only doing a SMALL amount of help, that is still help. We can't afford to lose that small amount of help or any other help we might be getting We need to appreciate and if not support, at least not attack anyone and everyone who is helping even the smallest amount.
And beside the NRA is a whole lot better than some here claim. To make my argument a little easier (I'm tired tonight) I'm going to break my own rule and talk critically about the GOA.
Many here crow about how the GOA (I'm a loyal dues paying member BTW) is a "no compromise" organization. Well, sometimes "no compromise" is just plain dumb. Take the 1994 Clinton so-called "assault weapons ban". When the opponents of that ban saw that they had no chance of stopping that ban, they were smart enough to get a "compromise" through in that the ban automatically expired excactly 10 years from the date of it becoming effective. That "compromise" is the one, only and sole reason we do not have the "assault weapons ban today
Even though for now at least we pro-gun people have gotten temporarily lucky and have a lot of strength on the federal level (not so strong on some state levels). But even at that, if the AWB hadn't expired, there is no way we have the strength to have forced it out of existance.
Plus, I live on the MO-KS line so I keep up with gun rights in both states. MO finally got a CCW law last year after years of fighting. Each time they got close to getting the CCW in MO all the opponents publically blamed the NRA. When the MO CCW law passed the opponents blamed the NRA. Never even a hint of mention about the GOA or any other pro-gun group in regards to getting the CCW passed.
With the exception of KS not yet having a CCW I have personally observed the very same thing that I just described happening in MO happen in KS
Now folks, if you believe me on this, and you are welcome to check into it via old newspaper articles, etc. why, oh why would anyone here locally in KS or MO want to see any harm come to the NRA?
I could tell you many, many other stories, especially from my view point as a committe member of the "Friends of the NRA" non-profit fund raising, etc., but I frankly don't have the time or energy.
Plus in many cases regarding the view points so often expressed here I feel I am just beating my head against the wall.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
I wholeheartedly agree with the point that we need all the friends we can get. I am glad there are groups out there like the Pink Pistols and the Second Amendment Sisters. These groups broaden our appeal. Appealing to groups other than straight, white men is our only chance of winning...
Molon Labe
I ain't conceding nothing.
You still ain't answered the question.
You are giving the same amount to both.
ROFLMAO [;)] [:D] [:o)] [:D] [:D]
HighVolumeOfFire, (and fox)
You got that right.
The more (on our side) involved in the fight, the better.
The gene pool needs chlorine.
Let the games begin!
this banter really matter? They will do what they want to do.
The massah always get his way!
Lords, Ladies and serfs. Guess who be de serfs? The only rights left
are to die in a foreign land for da massah, and to pay high taxes.
The massah still own everyting here, and if'n you don't believe me,
try not paying your taxes and see what they take instead.
TR, I'm sorry pal...but the leaders of the NRA don't want the
debate to end anytime soon, just like Sarah Brady. They all need
the incomes.
I've become so delusioned with the damned Republic, I've moved to New Zealand. I didn't intend to...it's just some butthead told me if I
could find a better place to live..to go there...so I did!
Molon Labe
And rest assured, our friends the cops will be a kickin down
your door! How does the NRA spell SWAT?
I'm sorry, but I've lost faith in ALL Americans!
Sorry buddy, but the only thing you will accomplish is being
a "casualty of war"! I respect your decision though.
Even if in the entire US, there were only 1000 people willing to fight it out, could you imagine the chaos 1000 police shootouts across America would cause??? Nope, the other side has time on their side and they'll use it. While I'm confident that that my guns will never be seized due to the passing of a law, I fear that my children will never enjoy the same rights I have.
Molon Labe
My hat's off to ya!
The above scenerio is a disaster for everyone, the other side knows this. Things will go nice and slowly. Guns will be registered, sales and transfers will be made illegal, and within a generation they will have accomplished their goals.
The only way to stop it is by VOTING, and spreading our appeal. If everyone could find just one new person and take them to the range, alot of our problems would be fixed right there. Instead, some people adopt a "from my cold dead hands" philosophy and insulate themselves. I'm as guilty as anyone, in case you handn't noticed my signiture on the bottom left of this box. Gun Owners need to use the BALLOT box now, instead of telling everyone how they are going to use the Ammo Box later
Molon Labe
If it Flies it Dies
when they pry them out of my cold dead hands [:D]
My personal favorite is "When they come for your guns, give 'em the ammo first!"
Molon Labe
I'm just trying to use logic, nothing more. The antis want an end to "gun violence", starting a massive kick-in-the-door campaign would only make things worse for them. There are something like 70 million gun onwners in America. Even if only 1% resisted, there would be 700,000 Americans shooting at those coming to take their guns.
The above scenerio is a disaster for everyone, the other side knows this. Things will go nice and slowly. Guns will be registered, sales and transfers will be made illegal, and within a generation they will have accomplished their goals.
The only way to stop it is by VOTING, and spreading our appeal. If everyone could find just one new person and take them to the range, alot of our problems would be fixed right there. Instead, some people adopt a "from my cold dead hands" philosophy and insulate themselves. I'm as guilty as anyone, in case you handn't noticed my signiture on the bottom left of this box. Gun Owners need to use the BALLOT box now, instead of telling everyone how they are going to use the Ammo Box later
Molon Labe
There is some very good stuff in the above post that I like. A lot.
Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
This is incorrect. They only want you to cave to their will, in an effort to make you equal to them, so they can gather together and force some more stuff on you. It will not matter to them if every single one of us is rounded up and shot, I guaran-damn-tee it.
quote:The only way to stop it is by VOTING,
Wrong again. The only way to stop it is to refuse to comply. Sure, you can play the soft war game by voting, but what good is a law that is so horrendously wrong that no one is inclined to follow it. That is why there is no Prohibition, anymore.
quote:If everyone could find just one new person and take them to the range, alot of our problems would be fixed right there.
OK, now there is a lot of truth to this, and it is actually a far more effective way to ensure future generations have this same right. Teach your kids, or someone else will, and you won't be happy about it.
quote:some people adopt a "from my cold dead hands" philosophy and insulate themselves.
This is as necessary as the other things. The message has to be that we will not sack our rights merely because 51% or more of the population are a bunch of dumb@$$#$. This, all by itself, though, is not going far enough.
Look, this wasn't a flame, but you guys need to think about what I'm saying here, because vigilance does not involve voting now and taking orders later. Sometimes, you have no good choices, like me... both of my Republican Senators, and the Governor are all antigun liberals at heart, and the Democrats who wish to unseat them are even worse.
Death to Tyrants!!!
Lev 26:14-39
Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.
Luke 22:36.
"Followers of Christ, be armed."