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Any Non-NRA out there?

badwrenchbadwrench Member Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭✭
I am not a member of the NRA (and by stating this I open myself up to all kinds of boolashish, save your typing fingers, please. I've heard it all before). I prefer to stand up for myself and I fell I do not need a group to speak for me. My views differ greatly from those of the NRA. They were a great group when promoting civilian marksmanship.

Anyone else feel the same?
«13

Comments

  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    I believe that the NRA is a great organization....provided,of course....

    They confine themselves to shooting events,the American Rifleman magazine,the fine range out in New Mexico,,perhaps..maybe,under very careful,watchful eyes of REAL Second Amendment people...teach young people gun safety and such.....

    They should leave defense of the Second Amendment to people that actually believe in it...and have the balls to actually fight...in the streets,if necessary.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    badwrench: If you are very, very rich and/or powerful and/or famous then you have a very, very good plan to "stand up for yourself". If you are just an common, ordinary person who is choosing to avoid making any kind of commitment to the few organizations that pool the efforts of the common man in order to actually accomplish something good, then you are a fool.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • Henry0ReillyHenry0Reilly Member Posts: 10,829 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The NRA certainly has it's faults, but it is pretty much the loudest and best voice the gun owners have in Wash DC. I am a Life Member and recruiter.

    avitar.jpg
    Semper Fi

    Remember Ruby Ridge.

    What if there were no hypothetical questions?

    Not a member at the auction? Join Gunbroker at this link!
    I used to recruit for the NRA until they sold us down the river (again!) in Heller v. DC. See my auctions (if any) under username henryreilly
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My NRA membership expires in 2 days. They compromise too much anyway. I will continue to support GOA.

    If I thought that the best way to keep my semi-autos was surrendering my full-autos, I'd stick with the NRA. However I believe all gun control is unconstitutional, and I won't help them surrender any more of my rights.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Your NRA "compromise" is still light years better than the Brady Campaign's agenda. And by not supporting as many of the few pro-gun groups as you can afford, you are empowering such groups as Brady. But if that is your desire, then I wish you full speed ahead.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    tr fox Posted - 10/30/2004 : 12:54:23 AM
    quote:Your NRA "compromise" is still light years better than the Brady Campaign's agenda.

    I must respectfully,as usual,disagree.Giving the enemy aid and comfort is never a good idea.

    Bartering off a right 'for the good of' is nonsense.Better by far to have it taken away on the field of battle..then to surrender it to some fat slob socialist sitting in an office.

    The real problem is simply..entirely too many people trust that the REAL aim of the Socialists in power and their syhophants in big business and media is just to ensure 'safety'.

    Their REAL aim is simply to disarm the populace..so that the draconian measures coming down the pike cannot be resisted.The 'SAFETY' they desire is THEIR OWN !!!!
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If we all ignor the government, it will go away.

    Ok, in other words, "If enough of us refuse to obey these so-called "laws", what, then, will they do?"

    Any takers on this issue?

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
    "Followers of Christ, be armed."
  • mpolansmpolans Member Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball, you're always talking about having "the balls to actually fight...in the streets, if necessary," and how rather than any "compromise" you'd rather have your rights "taken away on the field of battle."

    If this is truly the case, how come we see your posts here instead of leading an armed march on Washington or your local ATF office? You clearly believe our 2nd Amendment rights have been infringed and that any infringment (aka compromise) merits a violent response.
    How come we're not reading about you in the papers?
    Live free or die, right?
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Also, as no offense to TR, if surrendering full autos to keep semi autos is ok, is it ok to surrender the semi autos to keep the bolt action rifles and single action revolvers? Is it ok to surrender the bold action rifles and single action revolvers to keep the single shot firearms? Is it too much of a compromise to surrender all modern firearms to keep black powder firearms?

    As far as I'm concerned, any compromise is too much. If we don't let them have our rocket launchers, they will constantly be fighting over them instead of our machine guns. If we surrender our machine guns, they will come for our semi autos, and so on.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Henry0Reilly
    The NRA certainly has it's faults, but it is pretty much the loudest and best voice the gun owners have in Wash DC. I am a Life Member and recruiter.

    avitar.jpg
    Semper Fi

    Remember Ruby Ridge.

    What if there were no hypothetical questions?[

    Not a member at the auction? Join Gunbroker at this link!


    So recruit us!...As a recruiter does it bother you at all as to the numbers of gun owners that are out here....waiting...wishing...to support them,?Just askin,No offense intended.....L.H.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    mpolans posted;

    quote:Highball, you're always talking about having "the balls to actually fight...in the streets, if necessary," and how rather than any "compromise" you'd rather have your rights "taken away on the field of battle."

    If this is truly the case, how come we see your posts here instead of leading an armed march on Washington or your local ATF office? You clearly believe our 2nd Amendment rights have been infringed and that any infringment (aka compromise) merits a violent response.
    How come we're not reading about you in the papers?
    Live free or die, right?


    Possibly because I am not as challenged as you ? Did you truly think by calling my "Manhood" into question I would run to the street and commit suicide..??? REALLY ??? FOR YOU ????

    Why do you suppose you read me trying to get people to stop sucking the big toe of corrupt officials..(SWORN to uphold the Constitution..)..? Got it figured out yet...? Let me help....

    I want a law passed so draconian so that EVEN YOU can recognize it as being too much...Withdraw from the failed political system..I give it 5 years to pass...
    Then,and only then..will we see what stuff YOU are made of..
    .Until that time,my man..I intend to FULLY comply with WHATEVER ridiculous laws the aformentioned corrupt officials pass.

    That being said..I will also never miss a chance to point out what REAL MEN did..a couple hundred years ago.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Greetings Mr. Badwrench (I'm sorry I didn't plan any pun):

    I agree in that I do not like the NRA though I have been a member in the past. They consider a compromise a victory and they are constantly sending junk mail begging for more contributions (I often wonder how much money they would save if they didn't make all those beggar mailings). But I want to discuss a few points you brought up.

    Their have been many incidents of firearms being confiscated in U.S. History usually as a form of "other" people control (generally minorities and immigrants). In modern America firearms have been confiscated under divorce/protective order proceedings and some whole inventories of licensed dealers have been collected by the ATF for technicalities and all the evidence "lost." As the for the police going door to door to gather all firearms are as you correctly stated are nothing more than pipe dreams of Bill Clinton and Ross Perot.

    What I must really raise a contention is your position that some firearms should be banned (I own one of the formerly banned ugly guns; criminal record checks are fine with me too if they are instant). At any point that you concede that some firearm or other weapon has no "real' or "logical" reason to be in the hands of private citizens then following any course of true or perverse logic is that eventually all firearms should be banned so that when the government says you must do something you don't agree with you will have a hard time saying, "No!." It is a slippery slope to contend with and its hard to put on the brakes.

    It's your opinion and you may state it all you want but let me ask you a favor in that you do not push for law against these firearms. My "assault rifle" protects your pistol, shotgun, and hunting rifle and fulfills the actual purpose of the 2nd Amendment, causing the government to be respectful of the populace it serves.

    Think about it for awhile and we can discuss it more later.

    The Ol' Grey Ghost
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    "Instant background checks"....

    As FINE an example of lazy thinking as there is." Follow the corrupt leader thinking.anyway....

    Going to jail should NOT be an automatic "Loss of Rights Forever" as per todays society crippling agenda.

    The crime so bad your rights are lost forever ? Then get executed..or stay in jail for life

    Letting a man out of prison..? THEN GIVE HIM HIS .45 BACK...you have proclaimed him fit to associate with polite society again...and NO NEED TO DO BACKGROUND CHECKS...DeFacto gun/people registration..and the fedgov has NO NEED for those kinds of lists...

    Gun people demanding gun laws..How are they any different then Shuman/Kennedy/Fiendstein...?????????

    I classify them ALL THE SAME....never having read the Second Amnedment..they are free to prattle on about 'reasonable gun controls.."
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,837
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    Your NRA "compromise" is still light years better than the Brady Campaign's agenda.

    I strongly disagree. THe NRA mindset is much like the Republican mindset, in that their first reaction is always "WE must compromise, in order to keep power".

    The NRA is perceived as a bunch of non compromising, want children to get shot, want to overthrow the government, dont want to accept ANY gun laws, organization. Anyone who knows anything about the organization, knows this is not the case. The NRA readily accepts gun laws, they dont like the patriot type gun owner, they certainly ompromise, and of course, they do not want children getting shot.
    The problem is, if they are perceived this way by the ignorant, and gun grabbing crowd, then why does the NRA feel the need to compromise? No matter what the NRA does, they are going to be perceived as an "extremist(for lack of a better term)" organization. So if they are going to be perceived that way, why not be that uncompromising, pro second amendment group that the masses think they are?

    "Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
    -Jimmy the cheese man
  • WranglerWrangler Member Posts: 5,788
    edited November -1
    I'm tired of the mail from the NRA always looking for $$$. I get something from them every two or three days. Goes straight to the trash. Does everyone else find this annoying? I'm thinking of letting my NRA membership expire, and joining GOA. Heck, it would probably be the same problem.
  • pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wrangler,
    There are ways to "opt out" of getting those mailings.
    I never get even one, anymore.


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Wrangler:

    I agree with you 100% on the begging by the NRA (check my earlier post). Now I've not been a member of the GOA but I am on their E-mail alert list and as they promised it is 99% real stuff that concerns me (the rest is stuff determined by people who live in other States and not under my control except they too want me to send money to that politician which I think is a little too much interloping on my part). If you join the GOA, let us know how it goes.

    Hey Highball:

    Lets get those ellipses under control, pretty please. They are generally used to leave out unnecessay words when you quote someone as long as the removal of the words don't change the meaning the original author intended and I'm having trouble figuring if you are quoting someone or writing your own thoughts. I've read a few posts by other people who describe you as a radical and its no problem with me as I've been called insolent and seditious in my time (I'm one of those "nuts" that thinks that any weapons good for the soldiers or police is good for the American people). But let's talk "Instant Background Check" or whatever its real name is now.

    I am a former Police Officer and now working (in slow motion since I am retired) on my Doctorate in Criminology (note: not Criminal Justice, different fields) and there are very long term studies that show most criminals, like doctors, specialize. Burglars commit burglaries and killers keep killing (to state the obvious). The unfortunate part of the 68'GCA and addendums known as the Brady bill make it illegal for all felons to buy firearms from licensed dealers and supposedly owning them (here in Texas a felon can own a firearm but he [or she, but for convenience I will write using the male gender] cannot buy one, cannot have somebody buy one for him [though a family member can give him one for a gift], and he can't leave his property with it in hand).

    Now crimes basically break down into three groups: Mal En Se (evil within themselves;i.e. just about every society on earth condemns murder), Mal En Prohibita (evil because somebody said so;i.e. drug laws, gun control laws) and almost fitting under the last group are Crimes of Potentiality (driving while intoxicated might kill somebody, including the drunk, so it is prohibited and outlawed). I really hate this last group because just about anything can potentially happen and just labeling it a crime does not save lives at an exponential rate.

    Now burglars are felons but most burglars I knew that ever hurt someone were, in a form, acting in self-defense so once a burglar has paid his debt to society why continue to punish him by stripping him of his Constitutional Rights which, as you appear to understand, includes his right to Keep and Bear Arms. The same for any other form of non-violent crime that classifies as a felony. But "normal" people (those who don't think like you and me) might balk at the idea of a killer buying a gun (of course, if he is a murderer, why is not in prison or not taking a long nap) because killers continue to kill until they are caught, executed, imprisoned, or reach the age of 60 if they live that long.

    So our society, without consulting you or me, decides that there will be a record kept of all killers that are roaming free so that when one enters a gunshop to buy a gun and his name is run through this list, he has to be turned down if he wants to buy a gun if his name is on the list. Totally absurd, barely acceptable, but what the heck there's just so much rocking the boat can handle before it capsizes. Since I am not a killer but I might have been one in a former life or another identity, then I am checked against this list. It better be instantaneous or give me my gun. No 72 hours (which if the system is down for whatever reason [it went down on 11 September 2001] the 72 hours don't start counting down till the system is back on-line) for the government to hold me up. Anything less is "Infringement" and I am sure you know what that means.

    So, Highball, there's my point. Take a deep breath and use complete sentences when you write so we look somewhat better than the nuts some people think we are. Don't worry, we might just win this thing.

    The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "If you can't fool all of the people all of the time why do we still have elections?"
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Sorry,Ghost...I ain't tutored in the letters.All I am is a red neck..barely able to reach the key board.

    Full sentences ? I try not to..check the length of your post.Most folks brought up on "Laugh-In" won't read..so short and unsweet is what I learned to type..sorta trying to keep someone interested long enough to get to the point.

    Yes..I agree..sometimes it leaves the issue I wish to make in question...but leaving a space between words is far easier for me to read back thru my own post.You are about the first to complain..most of the upper class around here just dismiss me as..."Radical"..and that is okay too.

    Your statement about the system is well understood.

    However...SOMEBODY has to stand on a box and tell it like it should/could be..don't you think ? Somebody has to say that by no longer having the National will..or guts..to handle criminals as they SHOULD be...We as a nation are consenting to voluntarily giving up out precious Rights...

    BTY; The words I speak are mine alone..when I "borrow" from someone else..I do my level best to make it perfectly plain that I did.

    Welcome to the board..and your input is indeed welcomed.You may stumble across posters who consider me anti-police...if you pay attention..I am anti CORRUPT police.
    Peace Officers have my HIGHEST respect..law-enforcement officers less so...
  • CHGOTHNDERCHGOTHNDER Member Posts: 8,932 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Pick is right, all you have to do is call them and tell them you want NO Solicitation mail and it's done. I don't believe in compromise either but like stated earlier unless your Very Wealthy or a celebrity or something along those lines ...Your voice is seldom or never heard. I think this thread has made up my mind to upgrade my membership again, what is the next one up?

    PJ

    quote:Originally posted by pickenup
    Wrangler,
    There are ways to "opt out" of getting those mailings.
    I never get even one, anymore.


    The gene pool needs chlorine.


    editorialcolor.bmp
    If nobody seen you do it, how could you have done it. NRA Endowment Member, AF&AM, Shriner Life Member, A.B.A.T.E. of Illinois "Chicago Chapter" Founding Member & Board Member
  • savage303savage303 Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I fully agree with trfox. I have been a long time NRA member purely because of this reason.

    -Uk

    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    Your NRA "compromise" is still light years better than the Brady Campaign's agenda. And by not supporting as many of the few pro-gun groups as you can afford, you are empowering such groups as Brady. But if that is your desire, then I wish you full speed ahead.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    I trust everybody concerned is reading exactly WHY we have gun control here in America.

    I also trust that you feel comfortable sharing the same views.

    I do not.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Highball:

    I understand completely. We all need our aids to keep things straight and now I understand yours. I'll keep it in mind as I read your posts in the future (man, I miss spell-check since my hands have a tendency to hit more keys than I intend and I need an editor to catch my "typicagraphical errors"). Always speak your mind but an old slogan says, "God gave you one mouth and two ears" (what that really means I'm not sure). So far I haven't found a thing to disagree with or dislike about you. Hellfire, technically I'm a redneck, too, and even Bill Clinton agreed that our country was formed by radical people (all these years and I never thought of Ben Franklin as a radical; of course, King George [the fat guy in England] may have thought so).

    In Texas the generic title for Police, Deputies, etc. is Peace Officer and that how I viewed my profession. I saw society as a lifeboat in choppy waters, everyone could pretty well do what they wanted, just don't rock the boat so bad that it capsizes and we all drown. If someone was rocking the boat, I would you use the "LAW" as a tool to stop the disruptive party before things got really bad for everyone. An intoxicated white man in his underwear yelling racial insults as some of his neighbors in an apartment complex is "breaking the law" (Public Intoxication). I can warn him I am about to arrest him or he can shut up and go back in his own apartment and sleep it off. Most complied and some wanted to know, "What army was goi...hey, thats not fair...let me out of these cuffs and fight fair thi...(Slam!) You get the idea. But one thing to remember about most Police Officers (unfortunately the number seems to be shrinking) is they believe in the right of a private citizen to protect themselves with most efficient weaponry available because they can't be everywhere at once (and thank God for that sometimes!).

    Hey Mr. Badwrench (just heard a Mr. Goodwrench commercial on the TV and this still sounds like a bad pun; are you a automotive mechanic by chance or are you as bad as I am and have to pay someone else to fix it? I use to drive them real good, real fast through the worst of conditions and I never learned how to change the oil; maybe I'm not a redneck after all),

    No problem about other remarks said at other times. Water under the bridge my friend. I know who I am and what I have done and so do my family and friends so I must have made a few "typicagraphical errors" when I wrote before and some people have just run with their ludacrous misinterpretations of the impossible and write me off as a lying coward or raving lunatic. Writing on one of these forums is like the joining the Armed Forces; you pretty well have to accept that sometime in your career you may be shot at. If I still have any credibility with you let me address a few of your points.

    The AR-15, a trademark of Colt, and the many clones (the patent is obsolete so anyone can make a similar rifle, they just have to call it by another name) are used every weekend in this country at "Service Rifle" and "Three Gun" target shooting competions. If target-shooting is a sport (something similar is in the Olympics) then they have a sporting purpose. Children as young as seven are earning their college tuition firing AKS-47's (or AK-47S's) in similar competitions. And if practicing your sport is part of competition, then informal plinking, like shooting cans, is a sporting purpose. So don't write them off as having no sporting purpose.

    Bad for self-defense because they go through walls (a lot of them!)? You are correct if you have to worry about over-penetration (through and beyond your intended target) but some places, like Texas, we need the longer range and flatter trajectories of these type weapon/cartridge combos and the magazine capacities where we may not get a chance back by the house to get rounds from a box for a few days. Now I am not talking about shooting our fellow human beings (well if they cause enough trouble maybe) but other ranch varmints like prairie dogs, wolves, coyotes, and feral dogs. In our cities a handgun, shotgun, or a carbine (generally a rifle that fires a cartridge more commonly associated with a handgun like the Ruger PC-4) should handle most self-defense purposes but who is one person to decide what another wants to own. We just hold him accountable for every and each round he fires and sometimes those big mean guns don't even have to be fired to scare the predatory types off.

    Now for the number one choice of gangbangers. If I offered a few of them a menu with pictures of the weapons you want to outlaw, I'm sure they might all choose the weapons you mentioned even when more efficient weapons are listed beside them because that's what they have seen in the supercommercials more commonly known as movies (hey, steak and lobster when you can get it). But if we check through the "dumpsters" (sometimes literally) to see the food wrappers of what they really "eat" you will find .22 and .25 micro-auto pistols and sawed-off 20 gauge shotguns. Not much there to outlaw when most gangbangers are either too young or already screwed-up too much to be allowed to carry or even own firearms. But most are outlaws and "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have them" (this line is so old I hate to use it but it fits so well).

    Now for licensing. You might be surprised how many things we now need a license to do that were not licensed before WWII (okay, different time, but still surprising). I recently attended a Texas Hunter Safety Course with my son to assist him because his dyslexia (in the end he really didn't need my help but we both learned a few things) and one the first parts of political correctness they push: Hunting is a - A.)Right B.)Privilege C.)blah-blah-blah D.) None of the above. If you chose A.) you are terribly politically incorrect (how bad I wanted to shout that infamous compound word). If licensing Gunowners is good for our society (though this is a enumered right in the Bill of Rights and hunting has to fall under the ambiguous 9th) then the ultimate boost to human civilization is the licensing of Parents ala Hillary Clinton (twice as great in 2008?). Everbody has to take a parenting course before they are allowed to couple for the purpose of creating children? The most natural of human rights controlled by the government? The NAZI's tried this and they are condemned for the rest of human history (of course, they engaged in eugenics like slaveowners of the past to perfect the master race).

    BW, if we allow any of our rights to be whittled away one point at a time because it makes some sense or sounds reasonable then all our rights are open to be wiped away. And let me clarify a point I tried to make earlier. I am one of those radicals that believe that if its good enough for the military or the police then its good enough for the common man or woman (NUCLEAR WEAPONS, TOO? Surprise, some people already have them regardless of any weapons law and they don't work for our government) because the people are supposed to be, by our Constitution, equal in power to the agents of the government (government does not actually exist outside the abstract concept of the human brain). By the people being equal in power (my owning my AR-15 clone for instance) keeps the agents of government respectful of the rights of the populace they work for.

    Well I jabbered long enough. Y'all are smart people. Just do me the favor of thinking about it for awhile.

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "It is not the position of Government to grant us our Rights for they are given to us by our Creator and predate the very existence of Government. The proper role of Government is to protect those Rights."
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Any time the NRA "begs" for donations, you have the right to ignore that "begging", just as you ignore ads on tv or in mass mailing from other groups. But you must realize that the world is fueled by money. And for any non-profit organization to get money, exactly how would you have them do it other than "beg' from their members?

    If even half of the gun oweners in America were dues paying members of the NRA, GOA, JFPF, CCRKBA, etc., then we gun owners would be so strong that we would have few if any gun ownership problems.

    I am constantly amazed at the numerous gun owners who drive big fancy gas-guzzling vehicles yet can't (or won't) come up with the few misealy dollars required to get on the membership list of any good pro-gun rights group so as to give that group "clout" by having a large paying membership list when they try to influence congress, etc.

    Any of you who are holding back from paying those few dollars by joining at least one of the few pro-gun rights groups don't truly care about your gun-rights. Do you.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dr. Badwrench:

    I can see then where some of your feelings come from and I can empathize some (things were a little rough when I was growing up but nothing I hear from inner-city kids today; if one of my friends got shot it was usually from what they called a hunting accident, really not an accident just plain dumb gun handling). Let me just try to focus you that it is not the gun but the lowlife behind it. I know it hurts when friends die particularly for no really good reason. "I wanted his Nikes." "He didn't pull his wallet out fast enough." "I hate Jews, Queers, Whiteys, *, etc. so they all deserve to die." I had one police in-service training class (believe it or not we had to be trained about "gangstas" because we never had them before) and they showed us a tape of a robbery where the 14-year-old suspect shot and killed the "pop" of a "mom and pop" grocery store. The tape continued (his face was unfocused out) with detective interrogating him and they asked him why he killed the store owner. He blatantly denied he had killed the man. They played the in-store surveillance tape and asked is that you pointing to the gunman on the film. He said yes. "So you killed him, right?" "No I didn't kill him" "But here you are on tape shooting him, right?" "Yeah, I shot him but I didn't kill him." The investigators were a little shocked at this point. "Well who killed him if you didn't?" "The bullet killed him." Talk about a break with reality but this is how some gungrabbers think and talk. If you agree with them that one gun category is bad and you support them when they push to have them banned they will expect your help with the next category they can influence people are bad and evil just within the gun itself (since you seem to have picked up on the Japanese Bushido philosophy of a spirit within your weapon you will see that some of them attach evil spirits to all guns and then unto all gun owners).

    Let me see if I can influence you into one train of thought. Now I am not forcing you and it's your choice and you strike me as a smart fellow (especially if you can work on cars; I know the engine compartment and the trunk and I start to lose my way from there) so think on this one. Can you say (I'm not Mr. Rogers) "I do not like this category of firearms, I will never want one, I will never buy one (not buying can lead to some businesses going out of business so there products start to disappear from the market and the streets) and I don't want anyone to bring one on my property and I will use deadly force to stop anyone from trying to cause me serious * injury or worse with such a weapon." "Well then ,sir, shouldn't we outlaw, ban ,restrict such weapons?" "No, somebody somewhere may want one for whatever purpose he may choose and as long as it is not for criminal intent it is not my place to interfere with his rights to do so." "But you hate this type of firearm, shouldn't we outlaw them." "I hate broccoli too but it is not my position to deny anyone their rights unless they intend to cause me harm." Think about this and if you say it and mean it then we are getting closer to the true meaning of liberty for all.

    As for the unofficial militias (David Koresh was a religious cult leader with heavy apocalytic leanings and that is why he and his band stored up a large number of weapons) very few crimes have been traced to these type of groups (of course, that doesn't mean they haven't committed some crimes and some have been, unfortunately, very big ones in body count but as many die when an airliner crashes) but you are generally more likely to be a victim of our regular homegrown criminals than they or terrorists. Pack what weapons you think necessary to take on this type and leave the militias to their war games and target practice.

    Keep up the good work and we might just win this thing,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    P.S. I have read "1984" and sometimes the Orwellian "Newspeak" that people us when they send E-mails has me worried.
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dr Badwrench:

    My tatooed friend let me just give you a little advice and wisdom based on my near completion of 46 orbits around the Sun and having lived the most bazaar life I guess than anyone else that likes to cut me down has. You can never cut down the firepower of the opponents of liberty but you can outgun them and stop them before they get a chance to use all their firepower. I believe it was General Patton, "Your job is not to die for your country (now it can be "Political Cause" or "Jihad") but to make the other S.O.B. die for his."

    Well I'm going off the air for tonight. Keep the shiny side up and rubber side down,

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost
  • Ol Grey GhostOl Grey Ghost Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rick:

    I doubt I will ever be through California again in this lifetime, mostly due to medical inconveniences (I think Arnold will do a good job for y'all except for his stance on Assault Weapons; funny how the fictional future of the movie "Demolition Man" might become historical fact) but if you're in Texas let me know and you can come over and we can split a pair of Diet Mountain Dews (no advertising here, its just the strongest drink my doctors will let me have and only one a day at best) on my back porch. The best time is late Autumn through early Spring as the summer can be downright miserable for non-Texans (and most Texans really enjoy our air-conditioning).

    "Speak the Truth and Shoot Straight,"

    Peter W. Wickham, Jr.
    AKA The Ol' Grey Ghost

    "All the leaves are brown and the sky is grey...I'd be safe and warm if I was in L.A...California Dreamin' on a Winter's day" The Beach Boys and The Mamas and the Papas
  • CHGOTHNDERCHGOTHNDER Member Posts: 8,932 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Badwrench, Chrome may not get you home, but it sure looks pretty while your sitting on the side of the road[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D].


    PJ

    editorialcolor.bmp
    If nobody seen you do it, how could you have done it. NRA Endowment Member, AF&AM, Shriner Life Member, A.B.A.T.E. of Illinois "Chicago Chapter" Founding Member & Board Member
  • gunnut505gunnut505 Member Posts: 10,290
    edited November -1
    As Henry or anyone else who has seen how sausage is made can tell you, lawmaking is an ugly thing. Compromise is not a bad word in DC yet, because so much depends on the whims of "our" elected officials.
    They need to hear from us loud, long and often if they are to respect our wishes.
    GOA may be a fine pro gun organization, but with fewer members than the million mom march; they flat don't have the political might that a well-funded group like the NRA wields with over 3 million members.
    I support NRA because they have a bigger voice than mine, they have a well-funded Political Action Committee, they have arm-twisters that harass and harangue the Beltway crowd into toeing the line against gun control.
    If the Brady Bunch could beat us fair & square, they'd have done so many times already, but every time the NRA sends me a letter "begging" for money, I send whatever I can and feel good about it. I don't sit on my enlarged gluteal ploates and whine that they send too much mail, I don't expose my ignorance of how the political system in our country is manipulated by the corrupt and wealthy to disarm the peons, and I sure don't think that any firearms should be banned regardless of their marketing taglines.
    Some poster said that the tec-9 is a gangsters' wet dream and that guns like that SHOULD be banned, etc.; well I think that once a few guns are banned (like in the AWB), more will become available. Anyone have trouble getting parts for their favorite "banned" weapons during the AWB? Didn't think so. Trouble buying mags for same? Not till it expired did I have any difficulty getting decently-priced magazines.

    In closing, let me reaffirm that some of y'all get it, and some never will; which is why the NRA stands as the most effective pro-gun organization we have. As far as thinking, "It will never happen here!"; that's precisely what the gun owners in Australia, Britain and New Zealand said just before they turned over their guns.

    "Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit" --OVID
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    20,000 gun laws.
    You own whatever you own with the permission of your masters.

    You will lose them when they become convinced that the NRA represents the 3 % that will actually resist banning of firearms.

    Meanwhile,the NRA leadership will grow richer harvesting the gold of people convinced that they really give a damn about the Second Amendment.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Gunnut505: Thanks for the great post.

    Highball: It is of secondary concern to me in regards to how rich the leaders of the NRA "may" be getting or even if they believe in the 2nd amendment, or even if they are willing to war and fight in the streets to keep our guns.

    All I need to know is that the NRA is doing enough good each and every day to keep me happy. Especially when I realize that there are way too few people/groups/organizations fighting for us. And the NRA doesn't cost me very much money each year either.

    I know how you feel about many things and I would not try to change your feelings. These are just my feelings on the subject kinda presented as a point-counterpoint" in case any undecideds are reading our posts.[:)]

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    fox,It seems that it Should concern you on how rich those fat cats are getting....as the money that they are getting rich with is yours and other good gun owners trying to fight the good fight.
    With some of that extravagance couldn't they fight it even MORE effectivly?? Seems a bit like the church with the solid gold faucets etc,and the preacer drivin a brand new Crown Vic rather than a Taurus or whatever.THIS IS a BIG part of the problem,I do realize that we should PAY for the Folks that we need ,but geez whould'nt it be Just HANDY if THEY actually were doing it for the PRINCIPLE rather than the MONEY?......Just my 2 cents friend.....
    L.H.
  • gtcpl2gtcpl2 Member Posts: 38 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you believe in owning firearms, then you should belong to the NRA or any other firearm supporting organization. Period!!!

    If not surrender your weapons now. Did I hear you say no?

    Thats why you need to join the NRA otherwise it will be big brother telling you that and you won't get to say no.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    gctp12: as a hardcore NRA supporter I like your attitude. However, I have just a bit of advice for you in that years ago I gave up demanding all gun people belong to the NRA if they want to keep their guns. I have found that many knowledgeable intelligent people have what are good reasons for them to not belong to the NRA. Usually it does little good to try and argue those people out of their beliefs. And even I, a longtime NRA supporter, could mention a few faults with the NRA.

    So instead of demanding everyone belong to the NRA, I have had better success just encouraging every gun owner to join and support each and every pro-gun organization they find that they DO like to support. And of course they will find that there are very, very few such effective national organizations. But it is important that we all support the organizations we believe in and those that we have doubts about please don't trash them as we have very few friends and we can't afford to wish ill to any of them.

    BTW, I am a long time NRA member as is my 22 year old daughter and 2 yearold grandson, so I think it is pretty obvious I support the NRA. I am also a paid card carrying member of the GOA, 2nd Amendent Foundatation and the Citizens Committe for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I practice what I preach.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
  • gtcpl2gtcpl2 Member Posts: 38 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    TR Fox: I agree with you 100%. Thats why I said quote:then you should belong to the NRA or any other firearm supporting organization. Period!!!


    Every group has their good and bad points. But as you stated they should find one that they do like if they want to use the good old 2nd amendment.

    Sometimes I get a bit wrapped up. I use to have a ffl about 10 yrs back and feel very strongly about these issues.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    gtcpl2;

    As usual,Trfox and I trade friendly shots.Friendly because I believe he will stand in the breech when it becomes necessary.....I can go with a man like that.

    As for what you said...I will NEVER support ANYBODY advocating,supporting,compromising nor promising away the most precious freedom of all..the one that made the rest possible.

    The Second Amendment.

    Lord knows I WANT to support the NRA...and did for many years..until I got old enough to look critically at the organization.

    I believe we ought to stop dignifing the stupid meanies dealing away the Second by even TRYING to teach them how to think intelligently..and that includes many so-called " Gun Owners "..really just Socialists in disguise.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    I agree with Highball.......and fox knows what I believe as to the NRA and I DO have my reasons.As to being involved...Who said that I am NOT? As to contributing ,who said that I don't? For me I'd rather contribute to those that I see fit.IF the NRA is waging war against a particular bill of which is important to me...AND they are not compromising my rights away.....I will contribute.That makes me involved does it not?
    I don't need to belong to some organization or keep a particular card with me to know who I am or what I stand for///
    I do jump on the NRA website and check things out,as well as many others....I prefer to send my contributions where it'll do the most good,Case in point,the tried and failed bear hunting ban here in Maine..I have been club poor before...We all have the same drive friends,we just go about differantly.....L.H.
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Badwrench, no offense, but you mentioned bans on certain types of firearms being ok. Consider this: Before the ban "assault weapons" were used in less than 1% of all firearms crime.

    Also, since 1934, the law has required that you need to register certain types of firearms, such as machine guns. To date, since 1934, there has been only 1 crime commited using a legally owned fully automatic firearm, and that was commited by an off duty cop who used his MAC-11 to shoot a drug dealer. It is said that 2% of all firearms used in crime are fully automatic, but they are almost never legally owned. Why you would care about stopping a law abiding citizen from owning an automatic firearm is beyond me.

    I recently watched the video on GOA's website where Larry Pratt (I think) talked with Catherine Crier about the "assault weapons" ban. Larry Pratt cited all kinds of good statistics, like how they are used in so few crimes, and that you are more likely to be beaten to death by somebody's bare hands that shot with an assault weapon. She couldn't dodge these facts, so she went off on her (emotion based) personal rant about how the low crime rate doesn't matter at all, because nobody should want them? She asked why somebody would need an AK-47 or an Uzi. It's not the 1% of firearms crime they are used in that she is trying to stop; it's the very idea of a law-abiding citizen owning a gun she doesn't support.

    Two final statistics to leave you with:
    1. For every person killed by a criminal with a gun, there are 80 crimes prevented by a person with a gun.

    2. 80% of all crimes commited with firearms are commited with an illegally owned firearm.
  • remingtongeoremingtongeo Member Posts: 178
    edited November -1
    I belong to the same organizations that fox does, NSSF, I'm life NRA since 76 and a member since 68. The NRA isn't just about protecting our gun rights. It does more to teach the next generations to respect and safely use firearms than anyone else. I've taught hundreds of kids how to shoot through the NRA and thereby stregthen the ranks of progunners.

    I go to matches supported and structured by the NRA where I meet and talk to progunners.

    I've seen Eddy Eagle.

    I've talked to my state and fed senators and congersmen along with other local officials about my rights and what I expect them to do about propossed legal changes in them.

    The NRA isn't perfect but it's the biggest game in town. They have made mistakes in the past by believing some of the liberails but, they have taken a harder stance. People like Neil Knox what the NRA to be a lobbying organization only. What about the next generation? Who teaches them?

    If you don't support pro gun organizations as a whole then we're divided. And divided we..........

    NRA life member, instructor and coach.<BR>
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    remingtongeo Posted - 12/29/2004 : 05:52:50 AM

    quote:They have made mistakes in the past by believing some of the liberails but, they have taken a harder stance. People like Neil Knox what the NRA to be a lobbying organization only. What about the next generation? Who teaches them?
    Please don't blow smoke.Thinking that Neal is one dimensional is shear propaganda..straight out of the old guard NRA.The Bullseye crowd,dedicated to preserving double barrels and one handed pistol shooting.
    The REAL reason they railroaded Neal out had to do with being effective in fighting gun control laws..using methods not approved of by men in suits.
    quote:If you don't support pro gun organizations as a whole then we're divided.
    You NRA supporter folks divided YOURSELF..by embracing gun control...turning your backs on the Constitution and the Second Amendment.

    I as stated many times...will NEVER SUPPORT ANY organization aiding and abeting the enemy..those working ENDLESSY to enact Gun control.

    The business about the NRA teaching and doing good work on the range..is by and large true.I give you that.

    God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    In regards to American civilians having a right to own "assault weapons", there is no reason for anyone to be for or against that "right". But there is reason to be against this stupid misconception about "assault weapons".

    Reason being because basically the right for the average gun owner to own a true "assault weapon" DOES NOT EXIST. The ONLY guns that the average gun owner can own, and that the anti-gunners call "assault weapons" are and SHOULD BE CALLED "Look-Alike assault weapons" or "Cosmetically an Assault Weapon".

    The average gun owner CANNOT buy or own a true "assault weapon".

    A true assault weapon is one that can fire fully automatic or at the least three round bursts.

    Take my Armalite M-15. It is a military M-16 look-alike. But ONLY a look alike. NOT all the parts are interchangable AND MOST IMPORTANTLY my Armalite only fires "one trigger pull, one shot". Just like the old time and modern cowboy revolvers. Same with my SAR-1. It ONLY looks like a fully automatic AK-47.

    If my Armalite was given to an American soldier, or my SAR-1 given to an Iraq soldier, both of them would take their rifle to the armory and want them repaired BECAUSE THEY WON'T SHOOT MORE THAN ONE TRIGGER PULL/ONE SHOT.

    And in regards to the "evil" flash suppressor, baynoet lug and folding stock, NO REASONABLE PERSON SHOULD EVEN HAVE ANY CONCERN ABOUT THESE ITEMS.

    It is a flash suppressor NOT a flash eliminator. I have never heard of the police being unable to apprehend a violent criminal because he had an evil flash suppressor on his rifle.

    I have never heard of a violent criminal using the bayonet lug and bayonet to rob a convience store or do a drive-by bayonetting.

    If a violent criminals feels a profound need to shorten his rifle in order to committ a crime, he will not be stopped simply because the goofey anti-gunners passed a law outlawing folding stock. Either the criminal will illigally obtain a folding stock, saw off the buttstock of his rifle, OR GO OUT AND STEAL A PISTOL. The innocent public is going to get absoutely no extra protection simply becasue folding stocks are illegal.

    THERE ARE NO "ASSAULT WEAPONS" BEING SOLD TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE LAST 70+ YEARS!

    Please my fellow pro-gun people, help me out in getting this information (if you agree with my post) out to the public and let's get rid of this "assault weaapons in the hands of the public" lie stamped out.

    JMHO

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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