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So we understand each other, here, I am not an NRA basher in the true sense of the word. I tried thinking up an analogy that you might understand my position, here, so let's see if this doesn't help:
Picture yourself as a leader of an organization. You have a membership of 4 million people, and I am one of your members. You speak for me, and we are in a symbiotic relationship. My position is that we need to go after all of something, and yet you believe that it is too aggressive a goal, and as such, you listen to the majority opinion which I am not a part of.
Now, do you believe I have no right to be upset with you for not standing up for me, or for throwing me under the bus?
Think about this long and hard. the model for the NRA is that of a democracy, and they do this without realizing that a democracy is a polite form of mob rule.
Until their position of firearm laws and such change, and they stop consorting with the enemy, you will have much more of this, so you had best be ready to warn the NRA of this particular segment of disenfranchised firearm owners, and ask them to reconsider their position on us, or the membership will shrink.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by freemind
Wanna see something so hipocrical , that I fell outta my chair laughing when I read it in Boar Hunter Mag?
Here is a link http://www.nrapublications.org/president's column/Index.asp
Ha! What hipocits!
Yeah, I agree we DO NOT need government to regulate our freedoms. Too bad the NRA didn't ACT that way.
yup........the hunters friend.... not the gunowners friend............
Yep, more NRA lies, deceit and hypocracy. The unmitigated gall of him to say that compromise is bad, the right to keep and bear arm is fundamental and no American should have to prove anything to the government before exercising the RTKBA, when that is EXACTLY what the organization has been doing since at least the 1930's.
This bullsnit is exactly what most of the 4 million NRA members think is going on. They buy it hook, line and sinker, then go ape snit when some of us try to point out the facts.[V]
Okay, time for some common ground... slightly over 6 years ago I fired my first handgun. I loved it. I was never a Liberal, but I was certainly gun ignorant up unto that time. About 4 months after firing my first handgun I bought my first handgun. About a month after that I joined the NRA. At that time I was like a sponge, trying to learn all I could about firearms from magazines, the internet, gun shops, wherever. Within a year I had bought two more handguns. Another year (and a couple of more guns later) I made my first Gunbroker purchase and joined these forums.
When I first read these forums I was shocked, anti-NRA? What the heck is that? I knew about calibers, I knew about firearms mechanics, but my REAL gun education was just beginning. And thanks to many of you, it still continues to this day.
So what is my point? The NRA has a purpose. Would you rather have a Liberal remain a Liberal? Or would you at least have them join the NRA?
Would you rather have a gun ingnoramus (like I was) remain one? Or would you rather they join the NRA and actually learn about gun safety?
This is a multi-step program folks. If you get someone who is gun ignorant to join the NRA, then that is a good thing! If you can get a practicing Liberal to join the NRA, then you have performed a miracle!
I think most of us realize that the NRA has not been the best organization to stand up for the RTKBA (often working to undermine it, consciously or otherwise). But one thing it does well is bring the topic of firearms and gun rights to the mainstream. If the NRA can at least get a firearm into a Liberal's hands, and make it a positive experience, or educate ignorant people about gun safety, then I consider that a win. At that point it is up to us to take the reigns and teach those people about their God-given human right to keep and bear arms.
So what is my point? The NRA has a purpose. Would you rather have a Liberal remain a Liberal? Or would you at least have them join the NRA?
Would you rather have a gun ingnoramus (like I was) remain one? Or would you rather they join the NRA and actually learn about gun safety?
And I don't think there's a single person who would say anything against this kind of NRA.
quote:
This is a multi-step program folks. If you get someone who is gun ignorant to join the NRA, then that is a good thing! If you can get a practicing Liberal to join the NRA, then you have performed a miracle!
Indeed. On that front it's not a rational argument of ideas, it's a one way discussion with a hysterical constantly lacking logic pms-ing crowd of people who need xanax to function. So, NRA's got nothing to do with the whole thing here.
As for the subject: I see lots of things nobody else does but NRA, maybe if it had a little bit of competition they would review how they do business with US Government, Inc. I think all these arguments are way ahead of their time, while there're 70-80 million armed citizens, 95% of them are just as ignorant as the next Berkeley resident, and it'll stay this way until there's a "Gun ed" class in schools and no NRA or JPFO or GOA will be able to do but antagonize both sides. Anyways, the point is, it's a pretty pointless discussion, especially in terms it's conducted.
longhunter, it is only true in cases where constructive discussion is conducted in a rational manner, when hysterical accusation begin there's nothing to take from that table but a few laughs maybe. This where this debate is right now here: the two sides aren't listening to each other. I don't really know if they ever were, but in my short time on this forums I haven't seen that.
quote:Originally posted by thesneakyrussian
This where this debate is right now here: the two sides aren't listening to each other. I don't really know if they ever were, but in my short time on this forums I haven't seen that.
Short term vs. long term, therein lies the key.
I don't see the "hysterical accusations" that you speak of. I see some facts being presented, by both sides, nothing more. The information presented is not really meant for the two sides to debate. Many on both sides are set in their beliefs.
The information is more for the "new" people to read. Before the advent of the internet, most people received their "firearm related" updates on gun laws, and what was happening concerning them, straight from the NRA. They didn't have the time or inclination to research further. They took what the NRA was telling them, as fact.
Now, with the information super highway, research is easy. Finding out "BOTH" sides of the story has changed what was once.....gospel.
Sure, in the short term, nothing much seems to be accomplished. Just some bantering back and forth. But in the long term, there have been MANY that have started to "question" the "indisputable" facts put out by the NRA, and how they have supposedly "defended" the 2nd amendment.
The information here is simply to plant seeds, for the long term. To open the eyes of those who did NOT have this knowledge before. To inspire them to do some research, watch the actions of the NRA, THEN decide for themselves.
I for one, with the NRA being the 800 lb gorilla, do NOT want to see them go away. Rather I would like to see the membership demand that they defend "our rights" more vigorously in a more CONSTITUTIONAL manner.
The NRA dispute has been going on, here on these forums, for quite a while. Look back at some of the older "discussions" and look at how many were on either side. The percentages (pro-NRA) were more like 90% vs. 10%, now days it may be closer to 50-50. Think long term. [;)]
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
They all support the NRA for exactly the same reason YOU do, TR;
You are all afraid to tell the government to take a flying jump into the cesspool.
You ALL support gun laws, to boot.
Look to the last part of your post..all about 'pre-emption, CCWs'..ALL about supporting gun laws.
Castle Doctrine ? INDEED...A nation of cowards, afraid to demand their Rights until codified into law.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
quote:Originally posted by Highball
They all support the NRA for exactly the same reason YOU do, TR;
You are all afraid to tell the government to take a flying jump into the cesspool.
You ALL support gun laws, to boot.
Look to the last part of your post..all about 'pre-emption, CCWs'..ALL about supporting gun laws.
Castle Doctrine ? INDEED...A nation of cowards, afraid to demand their Rights until codified into law.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
quote:Originally posted by Highball
They all support the NRA for exactly the same reason YOU do, TR;
You are all afraid to tell the government to take a flying jump into the cesspool.
You ALL support gun laws, to boot.
Look to the last part of your post..all about 'pre-emption, CCWs'..ALL about supporting gun laws.
Castle Doctrine ? INDEED...A nation of cowards, afraid to demand their Rights until codified into law.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
yes,i concur
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?[
Sure seems to be the case, taking your information at face value.
TR, supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.
I offer you an apology for some of the harsh things that i've posted about you. I was out of line for doing so, just got caught up in the debate.
I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. They are and have consistently supported government infringement and control in the area of the RTKBA. That point is not debatable.
It was only a handful of years ago that I sounded a lot like you on NRA issues. I merely got educated, faced reality and made a conscious decision that what the NRA was doing in the areas in which they purport to be for the good of Amendment II, was not good. My support went elsewhere, although I remain a lifer at NRA. I would sincerely like to see them come around to a position to defend Amendment II as written. That isn't going to happen and I cannot support infringements on a basic right, period.
We can agree to disagree, but I will continue to shed light on actual NRA actions in an attempt to wake a few gun-owners up. My desire is to focus the fight to preserve the RTKBA in areas that actually support that right.
Those of you that no longer support the NRA and refuse to join or renew because of the reasons enumerated by lt496, also have no business being a Republican either. The same reasoning can be applied to the Republican Party. If you are anti-NRA for those reasons, yet still a Republican, then I think you have a conflict of interest.
So having said that, what political affiliation (if any) does the anti-NRA (yet pro-gun) crowd maintain? My guess is that we would get as many answers as responders, with most claiming to be "independent". Which therein proves one of TR's key points, hatred of the NRA for its anti-gun activities is not in itself a uniting factor. I have yet to see a practical alternative to the NRA that wields as much power and influence (although GOA is probably the front-runner) and serves to unite pro-gun and pro-2A advocates.
United we stand and divided we fall. For all of the faults of the NRA, it does server the purpose of displaying the semblance of a united front to the gun-grabbers and the anti-gun politicians. Even if it is merely a paper tiger, it at least gives the impression of unity among us to our enemies.
s,rew em......the repubs. adnd democraps are all the same now anyhow...so what would you have a well enformed viter do....vote for the one that is least worst...............again....and again....and again.....where is that getting us my friend,and incidently ,ones party affiliation should hsve nothing to do with the nra........love it or hate it,with the exception of the bucks they put up for questionable candidates......sigh....no wish to offend,but there it is........
No offense taken at all, longhunter. I appreciate your thoughts.
I do believe political affiliation does have something to do with the NRA. It is hard for me to understand why there are Democrat NRA members, since the Democrats typically support banning all types of firearm activities, including sport shooting.
I can see why a lot of NRA members are Republicans, because I think the two organizations have mutual interests. The NRA caters to the gun industry, which is big business. I have noticed that many of the controversial positions the NRA has taken on gun rights typically do not affect the business part of firearms. In fact they are often justification to the gun manufacturers to raise prices or sell more products (gun locks, safes, etc.).
But a rejection of the NRA based on the principles outlined by lt496 would require another type of political philosophy entirely. Something that neither of these parties offer.
quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
No offense taken at all, longhunter. I appreciate your thoughts.
I do believe political affiliation does have something to do with the NRA. It is hard for me to understand why there are Democrat NRA members, since the Democrats typically support banning all types of firearm activities, including sport shooting.
I can see why a lot of NRA members are Republicans, because I think the two organizations have mutual interests. The NRA caters to the gun industry, which is big business. I have noticed that many of the controversial positions the NRA has taken on gun rights typically do not affect the business part of firearms. In fact they are often justification to the gun manufacturers to raise prices or sell more products (gun locks, safes, etc.).
But a rejection of the NRA based on the principles outlined by lt496 would require another type of political philosophy entirely. Something that neither of these parties offer.
That "other type" political philosophy is pretty much where I find myself. Neither party seems to be interested in adhering to the Constitution. That scratches them from the equation for me.
Well, I got to say....since learning about NRANEWS.com and listening to them and how they fight for our rights...on air for all to hear....I will still pay onto the NRA and thank them for the rights they helped fight for hear in Michigan. I will put my CCW in pocket and slip my sidearm in it's cary holster and walk around Detroit and area feeling greatful for the NRA helping us push through the castle dotrine and right to carry laws. Anything else is just white noise to be squelched. Enough Said!
SlowDog, some might say that the NRA only succeeded in turning your natural human rights (or God-given rights, if you prefer) into something you must now ask for permission from your government to exercise.
Some might say that CCW and Castle Doctrine laws are unnecessary because they are inherent rights that you have as a human being, and have no reason to be codified by law. In fact, making them "permissable" by law demotes these activities as now being priviledges granted by the government.
In fact, some very smart men had an argument about this 218 years ago. The smart men lost the argument and now we have the Bill of Rights, which may as well now be called the "Bill of What the Government May Allow You to Do", as it is widely interpreted by the sheeple.
quote:Originally posted by WoundedWolf
SlowDog, some might say that the NRA only succeeded in turning your natural human rights (or God-given rights, if you prefer) into something you must now ask for permission from your government to exercise.
Some might say that CCW and Castle Doctrine laws are unnecessary because they are inherent rights that you have as a human being, and have no reason to be codified by law. In fact, making them "permissable" by law demotes these activities as now being priviledges granted by the government.
In fact, some very smart men had an argument about this 218 years ago. The smart men lost the argument and now we have the Bill of Rights, which may as well now be called the "Bill of What the Government May Allow You to Do", as it is widely interpreted by the sheeple.
You can't be that dumb.
Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
quote:Originally posted by SlowDog
Well, I got to say....since learning about NRANEWS.com and listening to them and how they fight for our rights...on air for all to hear....I will still pay onto the NRA and thank them for the rights they helped fight for hear in Michigan. I will put my CCW in pocket and slip my sidearm in it's cary holster and walk around Detroit and area feeling greatful for the NRA helping us push through the castle dotrine and right to carry laws. Anything else is just white noise to be squelched. Enough Said!
to be sure......a victory here and all are hurrahing the great...h.....they did that with ceaser,bonaparte,hitler.......i grant you they helped on that one,but just as an aside.most nra members are all up in arms because it seems most g.o.a. members do not belong also to the nra,may i ask respectfully if you are also a member of the g.o.a,.....................
quote:Originally posted by SlowDog
Well, I got to say....since learning about NRANEWS.com and listening to them and how they fight for our rights...on air for all to hear....I will still pay onto the NRA and thank them for the rights they helped fight for hear in Michigan. I will put my CCW in pocket and slip my sidearm in it's cary holster and walk around Detroit and area feeling greatful for the NRA helping us push through the castle dotrine and right to carry laws. Anything else is just white noise to be squelched. Enough Said!
Good little sheep...
Its all about being informed, and when you do so become get back with us
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?[
Sure seems to be the case, taking your information at face value.
TR, supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.
I offer you an apology for some of the harsh things that i've posted about you. I was out of line for doing so, just got caught up in the debate.
I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. They are and have consistently supported government infringement and control in the area of the RTKBA. That point is not debatable.
It was only a handful of years ago that I sounded a lot like you on NRA issues. I merely got educated, faced reality and made a conscious decision that what the NRA was doing in the areas in which they purport to be for the good of Amendment II, was not good. My support went elsewhere, although I remain a lifer at NRA. I would sincerely like to see them come around to a position to defend Amendment II as written. That isn't going to happen and I cannot support infringements on a basic right, period.
We can agree to disagree, but I will continue to shed light on actual NRA actions in an attempt to wake a few gun-owners up. My desire is to focus the fight to preserve the RTKBA in areas that actually support that right.
Again, ONLY so it's easier to read.
So.....long answer made short. You and the other NRA bashers DO know more than those in red above?
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?[
Sure seems to be the case, taking your information at face value.
TR, supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.
I offer you an apology for some of the harsh things that i've posted about you. I was out of line for doing so, just got caught up in the debate.
I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. They are and have consistently supported government infringement and control in the area of the RTKBA. That point is not debatable.
It was only a handful of years ago that I sounded a lot like you on NRA issues. I merely got educated, faced reality and made a conscious decision that what the NRA was doing in the areas in which they purport to be for the good of Amendment II, was not good. My support went elsewhere, although I remain a lifer at NRA. I would sincerely like to see them come around to a position to defend Amendment II as written. That isn't going to happen and I cannot support infringements on a basic right, period.
We can agree to disagree, but I will continue to shed light on actual NRA actions in an attempt to wake a few gun-owners up. My desire is to focus the fight to preserve the RTKBA in areas that actually support that right.
Again, ONLY so it's easier to read.
So.....long answer made short. You and the other NRA bashers DO know more than those in red above?
Already answered (large BOLD PURPLE text). Why are you asking again?
i have watched the nra and been part of it for most of my 51 years,and as said before the nra is great........in certain instances,certain examples,that iis not what they portray at all........
One might want to ask why virtually every pro-gun rights organization in America opposes H.R. 2640, while the NRA is siding with Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy.
One might want to ask why virtually every pro-gun rights organization in America opposes H.R. 2640, while the NRA is siding with Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy.
quote:Originally posted by gunphreak
All I did was ask TR Fox whether or not he believed a petition to the NRA from people like us would have mattered.
I see all of the responses to that question are gone as well.
Hmmmmm........
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by gunphreak
All I did was ask TR Fox whether or not he believed a petition to the NRA from people like us would have mattered.
I see all of the responses to that question are gone as well.
Hmmmmm........
I had nothing to do with any deleted posts. In answer to gunphreak's question, I would hope that if enough people petitioned the NRA that would get some positive results. I now believe that the NRA made a major mistake by appearing to join forces with such anti-gun people as Charles Schumer, etc.
Comments
Ok, that's a stretch, right there.
Anyone engaged in anti NRA stuff has their hands in the gun ban cookie jar. Somehow, none of us fit that criteria.
So we understand each other, here, I am not an NRA basher in the true sense of the word. I tried thinking up an analogy that you might understand my position, here, so let's see if this doesn't help:
Picture yourself as a leader of an organization. You have a membership of 4 million people, and I am one of your members. You speak for me, and we are in a symbiotic relationship. My position is that we need to go after all of something, and yet you believe that it is too aggressive a goal, and as such, you listen to the majority opinion which I am not a part of.
Now, do you believe I have no right to be upset with you for not standing up for me, or for throwing me under the bus?
Think about this long and hard. the model for the NRA is that of a democracy, and they do this without realizing that a democracy is a polite form of mob rule.
Until their position of firearm laws and such change, and they stop consorting with the enemy, you will have much more of this, so you had best be ready to warn the NRA of this particular segment of disenfranchised firearm owners, and ask them to reconsider their position on us, or the membership will shrink.
quote:Originally posted by freemind
Wanna see something so hipocrical , that I fell outta my chair laughing when I read it in Boar Hunter Mag?
Here is a link
http://www.nrapublications.org/president's column/Index.asp
Ha! What hipocits!
Yeah, I agree we DO NOT need government to regulate our freedoms. Too bad the NRA didn't ACT that way.
yup........the hunters friend.... not the gunowners friend............
Yep, more NRA lies, deceit and hypocracy. The unmitigated gall of him to say that compromise is bad, the right to keep and bear arm is fundamental and no American should have to prove anything to the government before exercising the RTKBA, when that is EXACTLY what the organization has been doing since at least the 1930's.
This bullsnit is exactly what most of the 4 million NRA members think is going on. They buy it hook, line and sinker, then go ape snit when some of us try to point out the facts.[V]
When I first read these forums I was shocked, anti-NRA? What the heck is that? I knew about calibers, I knew about firearms mechanics, but my REAL gun education was just beginning. And thanks to many of you, it still continues to this day.
So what is my point? The NRA has a purpose. Would you rather have a Liberal remain a Liberal? Or would you at least have them join the NRA?
Would you rather have a gun ingnoramus (like I was) remain one? Or would you rather they join the NRA and actually learn about gun safety?
This is a multi-step program folks. If you get someone who is gun ignorant to join the NRA, then that is a good thing! If you can get a practicing Liberal to join the NRA, then you have performed a miracle!
I think most of us realize that the NRA has not been the best organization to stand up for the RTKBA (often working to undermine it, consciously or otherwise). But one thing it does well is bring the topic of firearms and gun rights to the mainstream. If the NRA can at least get a firearm into a Liberal's hands, and make it a positive experience, or educate ignorant people about gun safety, then I consider that a win. At that point it is up to us to take the reigns and teach those people about their God-given human right to keep and bear arms.
So what is my point? The NRA has a purpose. Would you rather have a Liberal remain a Liberal? Or would you at least have them join the NRA?
Would you rather have a gun ingnoramus (like I was) remain one? Or would you rather they join the NRA and actually learn about gun safety?
And I don't think there's a single person who would say anything against this kind of NRA.
quote:
This is a multi-step program folks. If you get someone who is gun ignorant to join the NRA, then that is a good thing! If you can get a practicing Liberal to join the NRA, then you have performed a miracle!
Indeed. On that front it's not a rational argument of ideas, it's a one way discussion with a hysterical constantly lacking logic pms-ing crowd of people who need xanax to function. So, NRA's got nothing to do with the whole thing here.
As for the subject: I see lots of things nobody else does but NRA, maybe if it had a little bit of competition they would review how they do business with US Government, Inc. I think all these arguments are way ahead of their time, while there're 70-80 million armed citizens, 95% of them are just as ignorant as the next Berkeley resident, and it'll stay this way until there's a "Gun ed" class in schools and no NRA or JPFO or GOA will be able to do but antagonize both sides. Anyways, the point is, it's a pretty pointless discussion, especially in terms it's conducted.
This where this debate is right now here: the two sides aren't listening to each other. I don't really know if they ever were, but in my short time on this forums I haven't seen that.
Short term vs. long term, therein lies the key.
I don't see the "hysterical accusations" that you speak of. I see some facts being presented, by both sides, nothing more. The information presented is not really meant for the two sides to debate. Many on both sides are set in their beliefs.
The information is more for the "new" people to read. Before the advent of the internet, most people received their "firearm related" updates on gun laws, and what was happening concerning them, straight from the NRA. They didn't have the time or inclination to research further. They took what the NRA was telling them, as fact.
Now, with the information super highway, research is easy. Finding out "BOTH" sides of the story has changed what was once.....gospel.
Sure, in the short term, nothing much seems to be accomplished. Just some bantering back and forth. But in the long term, there have been MANY that have started to "question" the "indisputable" facts put out by the NRA, and how they have supposedly "defended" the 2nd amendment.
The information here is simply to plant seeds, for the long term. To open the eyes of those who did NOT have this knowledge before. To inspire them to do some research, watch the actions of the NRA, THEN decide for themselves.
I for one, with the NRA being the 800 lb gorilla, do NOT want to see them go away. Rather I would like to see the membership demand that they defend "our rights" more vigorously in a more CONSTITUTIONAL manner.
The NRA dispute has been going on, here on these forums, for quite a while. Look back at some of the older "discussions" and look at how many were on either side. The percentages (pro-NRA) were more like 90% vs. 10%, now days it may be closer to 50-50. Think long term. [;)]
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Edited ONLY to make it easier to read. [;)]
You are all afraid to tell the government to take a flying jump into the cesspool.
You ALL support gun laws, to boot.
Look to the last part of your post..all about 'pre-emption, CCWs'..ALL about supporting gun laws.
Castle Doctrine ? INDEED...A nation of cowards, afraid to demand their Rights until codified into law.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
They all support the NRA for exactly the same reason YOU do, TR;
You are all afraid to tell the government to take a flying jump into the cesspool.
You ALL support gun laws, to boot.
Look to the last part of your post..all about 'pre-emption, CCWs'..ALL about supporting gun laws.
Castle Doctrine ? INDEED...A nation of cowards, afraid to demand their Rights until codified into law.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
Indeed friend, indeed .
They all support the NRA for exactly the same reason YOU do, TR;
You are all afraid to tell the government to take a flying jump into the cesspool.
You ALL support gun laws, to boot.
Look to the last part of your post..all about 'pre-emption, CCWs'..ALL about supporting gun laws.
Castle Doctrine ? INDEED...A nation of cowards, afraid to demand their Rights until codified into law.
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
yes,i concur
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?[
Sure seems to be the case, taking your information at face value.
TR, supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.
I offer you an apology for some of the harsh things that i've posted about you. I was out of line for doing so, just got caught up in the debate.
I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. They are and have consistently supported government infringement and control in the area of the RTKBA. That point is not debatable.
It was only a handful of years ago that I sounded a lot like you on NRA issues. I merely got educated, faced reality and made a conscious decision that what the NRA was doing in the areas in which they purport to be for the good of Amendment II, was not good. My support went elsewhere, although I remain a lifer at NRA. I would sincerely like to see them come around to a position to defend Amendment II as written. That isn't going to happen and I cannot support infringements on a basic right, period.
We can agree to disagree, but I will continue to shed light on actual NRA actions in an attempt to wake a few gun-owners up. My desire is to focus the fight to preserve the RTKBA in areas that actually support that right.
Again, ONLY so it's easier to read.
Those of you that no longer support the NRA and refuse to join or renew because of the reasons enumerated by lt496, also have no business being a Republican either. The same reasoning can be applied to the Republican Party. If you are anti-NRA for those reasons, yet still a Republican, then I think you have a conflict of interest.
So having said that, what political affiliation (if any) does the anti-NRA (yet pro-gun) crowd maintain? My guess is that we would get as many answers as responders, with most claiming to be "independent". Which therein proves one of TR's key points, hatred of the NRA for its anti-gun activities is not in itself a uniting factor. I have yet to see a practical alternative to the NRA that wields as much power and influence (although GOA is probably the front-runner) and serves to unite pro-gun and pro-2A advocates.
United we stand and divided we fall. For all of the faults of the NRA, it does server the purpose of displaying the semblance of a united front to the gun-grabbers and the anti-gun politicians. Even if it is merely a paper tiger, it at least gives the impression of unity among us to our enemies.
I do believe political affiliation does have something to do with the NRA. It is hard for me to understand why there are Democrat NRA members, since the Democrats typically support banning all types of firearm activities, including sport shooting.
I can see why a lot of NRA members are Republicans, because I think the two organizations have mutual interests. The NRA caters to the gun industry, which is big business. I have noticed that many of the controversial positions the NRA has taken on gun rights typically do not affect the business part of firearms. In fact they are often justification to the gun manufacturers to raise prices or sell more products (gun locks, safes, etc.).
But a rejection of the NRA based on the principles outlined by lt496 would require another type of political philosophy entirely. Something that neither of these parties offer.
No offense taken at all, longhunter. I appreciate your thoughts.
I do believe political affiliation does have something to do with the NRA. It is hard for me to understand why there are Democrat NRA members, since the Democrats typically support banning all types of firearm activities, including sport shooting.
I can see why a lot of NRA members are Republicans, because I think the two organizations have mutual interests. The NRA caters to the gun industry, which is big business. I have noticed that many of the controversial positions the NRA has taken on gun rights typically do not affect the business part of firearms. In fact they are often justification to the gun manufacturers to raise prices or sell more products (gun locks, safes, etc.).
But a rejection of the NRA based on the principles outlined by lt496 would require another type of political philosophy entirely. Something that neither of these parties offer.
That "other type" political philosophy is pretty much where I find myself. Neither party seems to be interested in adhering to the Constitution. That scratches them from the equation for me.
Some might say that CCW and Castle Doctrine laws are unnecessary because they are inherent rights that you have as a human being, and have no reason to be codified by law. In fact, making them "permissable" by law demotes these activities as now being priviledges granted by the government.
In fact, some very smart men had an argument about this 218 years ago. The smart men lost the argument and now we have the Bill of Rights, which may as well now be called the "Bill of What the Government May Allow You to Do", as it is widely interpreted by the sheeple.
SlowDog, some might say that the NRA only succeeded in turning your natural human rights (or God-given rights, if you prefer) into something you must now ask for permission from your government to exercise.
Some might say that CCW and Castle Doctrine laws are unnecessary because they are inherent rights that you have as a human being, and have no reason to be codified by law. In fact, making them "permissable" by law demotes these activities as now being priviledges granted by the government.
In fact, some very smart men had an argument about this 218 years ago. The smart men lost the argument and now we have the Bill of Rights, which may as well now be called the "Bill of What the Government May Allow You to Do", as it is widely interpreted by the sheeple.
You can't be that dumb.
[B)]
Exactly...it may be a GOD given right and yes we had to fight for it. But then we need remember that "God Givith and Liberals Takith Away!"
The more I listen, the oldr I get, the more I understand how millions of people are herded into camps and slaughtered.
Cowards and 'get thee head up your rump' people....AFRAID to demand freedom..UNABLE to use it, if they had it..and without the self-disipline to govern themselves.
They MUST look to central government for their security and guidence...
ooohhh that is brutal.
Spot on, but brutal.
Well, I got to say....since learning about NRANEWS.com and listening to them and how they fight for our rights...on air for all to hear....I will still pay onto the NRA and thank them for the rights they helped fight for hear in Michigan. I will put my CCW in pocket and slip my sidearm in it's cary holster and walk around Detroit and area feeling greatful for the NRA helping us push through the castle dotrine and right to carry laws. Anything else is just white noise to be squelched. Enough Said!
to be sure......a victory here and all are hurrahing the great...h.....they did that with ceaser,bonaparte,hitler.......i grant you they helped on that one,but just as an aside.most nra members are all up in arms because it seems most g.o.a. members do not belong also to the nra,may i ask respectfully if you are also a member of the g.o.a,.....................
Well, I got to say....since learning about NRANEWS.com and listening to them and how they fight for our rights...on air for all to hear....I will still pay onto the NRA and thank them for the rights they helped fight for hear in Michigan. I will put my CCW in pocket and slip my sidearm in it's cary holster and walk around Detroit and area feeling greatful for the NRA helping us push through the castle dotrine and right to carry laws. Anything else is just white noise to be squelched. Enough Said!
Good little sheep...
Its all about being informed, and when you do so become get back with us
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?[
Sure seems to be the case, taking your information at face value.
TR, supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.
I offer you an apology for some of the harsh things that i've posted about you. I was out of line for doing so, just got caught up in the debate.
I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. They are and have consistently supported government infringement and control in the area of the RTKBA. That point is not debatable.
It was only a handful of years ago that I sounded a lot like you on NRA issues. I merely got educated, faced reality and made a conscious decision that what the NRA was doing in the areas in which they purport to be for the good of Amendment II, was not good. My support went elsewhere, although I remain a lifer at NRA. I would sincerely like to see them come around to a position to defend Amendment II as written. That isn't going to happen and I cannot support infringements on a basic right, period.
We can agree to disagree, but I will continue to shed light on actual NRA actions in an attempt to wake a few gun-owners up. My desire is to focus the fight to preserve the RTKBA in areas that actually support that right.
Again, ONLY so it's easier to read.
So.....long answer made short. You and the other NRA bashers DO know more than those in red above?
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Before the internet I also got my gun news from the NRA in addition to the anti-gun news media. The news media always did and still does blame the NRA for American Citizens having guns and gun rights. In spite of strong, organized, powerful and wealthy anti-gun forces constantly trying to take those rights away.
So if our enemies (liberal media) blames the NRA for helping with gun rights, why do so many of our fellow gunners blame the NRA NOT helping with gun rights? Why does GB.com urge us to join the NRA? Why do numerous national, prominent and successful people (Mike Dillon of Dillon Reloading Press for just one) urge us to join the NRA? Why do gun rights leaders across the country, leaders of their state NRA affiliate, urge us to join the NRA. Leaders (Attorney Kevin Jamison of the Western Mo. Shooters Alliance for just one example) who have worked for years on a local level, with the help and support of the NRA, to pass CCW, Castle Doctrine, Preempting city gun laws stronger than state laws, etc., and above anyone here should know more about whether or not to support the NRA. Why do all those people do what they do?
Oh, I forgot. It is a left-wing scheme to fool us into supporting a pro-gun organization that is in fact working against gun rights.
Sir,
Here is an answer to your questions in red above.
One must remember that the NRA has been a large part of the "American Culture" and has had the status of an "American Institution" since the late 1800's. As such, it is ingrained into the fabric of American Society.
Case in point, look at the "red haze of hate" that comes over many who feel strongly about the positive force they believe the NRA to be, simply because some want to show what the NRA has become and what actions they ACTUALLY take, not what they say they do.
I see this phenomenon as similar to finding out that ones wife has been steadily cheating on you since before you even got married.
As an organization with historical roots and the status of an "American Institution", the NRA has access to the trust and the "institutional support" that goes along with that status. The NRA has people purchasing memberships for their children, their friend, their family, as gifts etc.. All this is based on the FAITH and TRUST, coupled with the historical perspective that the NRA enjoys with the American people.
In my opinion, therein lays the problem. Since the NRA is so well entrenched with Americans and since most of our fathers, mothers, grandfathers etc have been proud NRA Members, we follow along in the same belief, trust and faith that America has always had in the NRA.
Sadly, the NRA has proven to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, whether intentional as I believe, or unwittingly by originally starting down the compromise road with good intentions.
Doesn't really matter which historical road they took. It is what it is.
Most of the other "newer" gun-rights organizations sprang up DUE TO the truth about the NRA, as many see it. Many saw that the NRA was talking a good game, but that they were actually facilitating and assisting in the slow erosion of Amendment II. These new "upstart groups" have NONE of the institutional entrenchment and generational historical support that the NRA enjoys.
Many Americans see that the NRA is a danger to true Amendment II Rights, through their insidious deals and their acceptance of government regulation of all things firearm.
My personal opinion is that the NRA is and has been in cahoots with a predatory government for many years and that their role is to "sell" slow infringements of the RTKBA to the American People. What better organization than an American Institution, that has the trust and respect of America's gun owners, to facilitate and assist in gaining the acceptance of the American people in total government regulation of firearms?
It is a testament to the TRUTH about the NRA that the membership in some of these groups is over 500,000. Not sure of the exact membership figures, but it is illustrative of a growing awakening and an acknowledgment of the truth about NRA complicity in gun-control and in the NRA NOT supporting the Second Amendment as enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights.
None of this detracts from the good work that the NRA does in the areas of firearm safety, range development, youth education, firearms training and other areas. Their weakness and the danger they pose lays in their actions related to constitutional issues, primarily Amendment II.
I calls them like I sees them. This is how I see it.
Sir, thank you for your polite response. However, all you have shown me is that, regarding the people/actions in red above, you and other professional NRA bashers here must know much more than those in red above.
Is that the case?[
Sure seems to be the case, taking your information at face value.
TR, supporting the NRA doesn't make you evil, or bad. I just see you as ill informed, or unwilling to admit that you have been fooled. You are obviously passionate about the RTKBA. That clearly is a good thing. Unfortunately you seem to be supportive of government regulation of firearm related issues. That is certainly your right and we can disagree on that point.
I offer you an apology for some of the harsh things that i've posted about you. I was out of line for doing so, just got caught up in the debate.
I've said it before and I'll say it again right here. The NRA does much good. They do an exemplary job in the education area, youth firearms education, firearm training, firearms safety training, marksmanship training, hunting rights, range development etc. They are simply supporting a different Second Amendment than that enumerated in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights. They are and have consistently supported government infringement and control in the area of the RTKBA. That point is not debatable.
It was only a handful of years ago that I sounded a lot like you on NRA issues. I merely got educated, faced reality and made a conscious decision that what the NRA was doing in the areas in which they purport to be for the good of Amendment II, was not good. My support went elsewhere, although I remain a lifer at NRA. I would sincerely like to see them come around to a position to defend Amendment II as written. That isn't going to happen and I cannot support infringements on a basic right, period.
We can agree to disagree, but I will continue to shed light on actual NRA actions in an attempt to wake a few gun-owners up. My desire is to focus the fight to preserve the RTKBA in areas that actually support that right.
Again, ONLY so it's easier to read.
So.....long answer made short. You and the other NRA bashers DO know more than those in red above?
Already answered (large BOLD PURPLE text). Why are you asking again?
New U.S. Senator opposing H.R. 2640, and a detailed rebuttal of the NRA's defense of gun control:
http://www.nationalgunrights.org/alerts/2007-demint2640.shtml
One might want to ask why virtually every pro-gun rights organization in America opposes H.R. 2640, while the NRA is siding with Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912813/posts
Some may consider this "Bashing". Some may consider this an EXPOSURE of the lies being perpetuated. Which side are you going to align with??
New U.S. Senator opposing H.R. 2640, and a detailed rebuttal of the NRA's defense of gun control:
http://www.nationalgunrights.org/alerts/2007-demint2640.shtml
One might want to ask why virtually every pro-gun rights organization in America opposes H.R. 2640, while the NRA is siding with Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1912813/posts
Outstanding WW. I am taking the liberty of a C&P of one of these articles at wave it around in GD and stir up the NRA apologists.
Maybe a few will eventually wake up.
OK, who edited my contributions out!!!!
Not to sound like SP, but I didn't do it.
I look forward to your contributions.
Admin or nunn must have been in here.
Somebody almost had to complain for either of them to come in "this" forum.
All I did was ask TR Fox whether or not he believed a petition to the NRA from people like us would have mattered.
I see all of the responses to that question are gone as well.
Hmmmmm........
quote:Originally posted by gunphreak
All I did was ask TR Fox whether or not he believed a petition to the NRA from people like us would have mattered.
I see all of the responses to that question are gone as well.
Hmmmmm........
I had nothing to do with any deleted posts. In answer to gunphreak's question, I would hope that if enough people petitioned the NRA that would get some positive results. I now believe that the NRA made a major mistake by appearing to join forces with such anti-gun people as Charles Schumer, etc.