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quote:Originally posted by Old Ironsights
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Old Ironsights;
Welcome...and excellent post. We that hold the line are few..and another is always greeted with glad cries of joy.
The rebuttal to your post, of course, is as I have already heard.." But nobody has been affected by the Law you mention"..Stupidity knowing no bounds, apparently...For the effect will be 5 or ten years down the road...as the Beast tools up their newest power grab.
Unfortunately, the NRA has become more infalible than the Pope to many folks. It's not just a Religion, it's a Cult that shall not be impuned whose absoluteists are as dogmatic as Scientologists.
On every forum I am on there is an NRA-ILA shill who does not actually believe in RKBA. Their every post and opinion proves this.
According to them, the Government has the "right" to say who has the privelege to possess firearms.
They believe that the GCA, despite being written in the virtual dark ages of medical science, and the 4473 are appropriate and absolute.
They believe that "Society" gets to decide what is apporpriate... just like "society" decided slavery was OK, just like "society" decided tha "racial hygene", sterilization & euthanasia of "undesirezbles" was OK, just like deciding that if the Govt declares you a "felon" or "mentally defective" (undesireable), the RKBA and the Right to Self Defense... the Right to LIFE can betaken from you.
These types have stated that they do not believe "certain people" should be allowed to possess firearms. That is a a de-facto declaration of their utter disregard of them as humans. No free person may be prevented from Self Defense. A firearm is nothing but a tool - the most effective tool - of Self defense. They want to deny that to a class of people which they unreasonably fear. That is, by definition, bigotry.
OTOH I'm dogmatic about ONE thing, that the RIGHT to KEEP and BEAR arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
Period. Not for ANY government definition. If you aren't locked up, you are FREE. If you aren't safe to be around, you should be locked up.
Self-defense is the absolute moral and ethical right of self-preservation from unjustified aggression.
Self-defense is the justified use of necessary force to stop unjustified aggression.
Self-defense requires willingness, ability and above all means.
Regulating "guns" is regulating the means to self-defense.
Self-defense regulated is self defense denied.
Denial of the right to self-defense is the denial of the right to exist, and is absolutely immoral and unethical.
... oh, hello. I'm philosophising again... [;)]
Welcome aboard sir.
Excellent, well reasoned posts. I get the feeling that it will be a pleasure seeing some of your future postings.
By the way, there isn't anything inherently wrong with philosophizing.....been known to wax philosophical myself now and then.[;)]
Thanks for the kind words. Don't get me wrong, I FIRMLY believe in the educational work that the NRA does... when they do it. Likewise the Whittington Center is a primo facility.
But that doesn't change the fact that the NRA is, by their own admission, first and formost a fundraising organization. And there is no better way to do that than to ensure that RKBA never "wins".
Why else would they try so hard to spike Heller before the were almost FORCED to support it
Why else would they waith until the SAF got the ball rolling on New Orleans before jumping in to take credit?
No, the NRA's POLITICAL WING is as much a part of the machine/problem as is anyone else with Potomac Fever. Without a Crisis, their money dries up - because as nice as Whittington is, it doesn't rake in the memberships (several thousand of which are required to pay the Vichy's salary alone each year...)
Old Ironsights,
First, welcome to the forum, and for your 2p.
Interesting that you should bring up the "Veterans Disarmament Act" and the "Constructive Possession" aspect of that atrocity. Bear with me, I may jump around a bit. LOL
First the "Constructive Possession" part. On occasion, we have had people come through the forums, wondering what their legal obligation/restrictions are, if they are married to a felon. (Or in whatever capacity, living with same) The answer, of course, is that the party in question (the felon) is exactly as you described it. They can not have access to a single item relating to firearms. This includes the key or combination, if these items are on the premises, and locked up. ANY violation (a 22 round under the seat in the car) and you are now BOTH felons.
Some of the members here, have been trying to get the word out about the NRA, for a number of years. Years ago, when a thread was started about the NRA, there was about a 90-10% split. The 90% being FOR the NRA. Over the years, MANY have been educated as to their actions. I believe the split is closer to 50-50 now, maybe even 40-60. Probably will never know, as many keep quite, but they do read.
Bantering back and forth with pro-NRA members on these threads, is usually more of a mental exorcise in debating, as well as finding out how brainwashed some of the masses are. The intent is rarely to convince the debater on the other side, to change his mind. The "real" intent to these debates, is for the onlookers. The ones that never join in, but simply read, those who absorb the information.
Most times, those silent people are just like we were, when we first started to question the NRA. Brainwashed by the ONE SIDED information, that we have been spoon fed our whole lives, about how the NRA was protecting our Constitutional Rights. That without the NRA, we would have been disarmed long ago. (Yes I admit, I was one of the brainwashed)
Through the information super-highway, BOTH sides are now available, for anyone interested enough to look. That is why we debate, why I put in a link, to the information that I have posted about the NRA. For the ones that WILL take the time to educate themselves, the ones that will question.
MANY have watched, read, and started to question (not ready to go either way yet) while others bantered back and forth about the NRA over the years. I have gotten into the habit of letting the NRA prove itself. Once a member starts to question, along comes the NRA and pulls something like they just did, by getting in bed with the likes of McCarthy, Schumer, the Brady campaign, etc. to stab our veterans in the back. We are talking about OUR VETERANS, who have FOUGHT AND DIED FOR THIS COUNTY. Emails, letters, phone calls by members to the NRA, asking WHY they were advocating this bill, went unanswered.
MANY who were sitting on the fence about the NRA,
were SHOCKED and AWED by that move. [:(!]
Nothing I, or any of the other members here, could have said, would have even come close, to having the same impact as those actions by the NRA. Actions DO speak louder than words.
Does my jumping around makes sense now.
And I do agree that the NRA has many programs that ARE good. Their political wing is not one of them. Neither is their certification program. Why does a certified firearms instructor need to be RE-certified? Did something change? Did the rules on safety change? Or is it that they just want the additional funds?
I also will vouch for the 90-10 split, 8 years ago, on this Gun Site ..and how ironic is that...on a gun site, the number of people that are anti-gun.
I begin to think that it is time for me to slink off into the night. There are MANY folks hereabouts that are far more capable then I at the word game ..able to convince without infuriating.
It was never easy ..being the target for the anger of basically decent people that dimly began to grasp that they have been cuckolded ..and their rage knows no bounds then...but it seemed to me the only way to batter down the walls that have been built of lies and deception from the government and the NRA.
The Second Amendment is so very simple ..only deception, treachery, deceit and the power-mad Elites have made it seemingly so very terribly complicated.
DTK; quote:May the truth be the light that guides you
I suggest you adhere to your tagline. You will find yourself MUCH closer to the Founders then to the Beast or the NRA...where you are now.
"I also will vouch for the 90-10 split, 8 years ago, on this Gun Site ..and how ironic is that...on a gun site, the number of people that are anti-gun."
You count me as Anti-gun but I am clearly not ANTI-GUN, I like them a lot, and if guns are banned I stand to lose thousands of dollars in assets
I am beginning to think I am ANTI-YOU and I am glad that there is enough moderate pro-gun support that even with help you might can't start a backlash that would abolish or ammend the second ammendment.
If the current gun control laws are so clearly unconstitutional why has not someone like yourself gone to court and gotten them overturned?
Why did the assault rifle ban have to sunset, it should have been overturned in the courts with its first enforcement.
If a constitutional ammendment to abolish the second ammendment was up for a vote how would you work to defeat it?
quote:I like them a lotIsn't that special...you like guns. Enough so you are willing to crawl on your belly to get them. The difference between someone willingly doing so and the person that does so under protest is the difference between a w * and a rape victim.
quote:, and if guns are banned I stand to lose thousands of dollars in assets Tough snit, jack...so sorry you might lose a buck.
Ever heard of FREEDOM ? Pretty clear not..since it never enters your lexicon...Money being your real God, perhaps...
Anti-Me ? Okay..I can stand a jack-booted thug lover despising me. No problem at all.
All the questions you asked..dilligently typing them out ? Just so much nonsense, when one understands where the Justice System is today..the only one that even nakes sense is the Constitutional Change.
And I might well work to get it passed...banning guns. The instant it passed..people like you would be forced to make a decision.
Live by it..or exert your God Given Right to be armed.
quote:Originally posted by dtknowles...If the current gun control laws are so clearly unconstitutional why has not someone like yourself gone to court and gotten them overturned?
You obviously don't understand how "overturning" laws works. If "overturning" laws were as simple as that, you wouldn't have stupid "buggy whip" laws still on the books.
No, you have to have "standing", and to get "standing" you have to be directly "injured" by the law. Which means surviving the BATFE raid to confiscate today's "prohibited" gun. Good Luck.
SCOTUS won't even LOOK at an unconstitutional law until it has wound its way through the entire court system. Just look a Heller. Just look at how the NRA tried quite hard to STOP Heller from getting to SCOTUS.
You can't just "go to court". The "system" doesn't work that way.
quote:If a constitutional ammendment to abolish the second ammendment was up for a vote how would you work to defeat it?
I'd work in my State to make sure it didn't sign on, then I'd jon the (heavily armed) march on Washington DC to implement USC TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 13 ? 241.
? 241. Conspiracy against rights
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured-
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
Any Politician who has EVER signed a "gun control" law is, by this bit of FEDERAL LAW a FELON.
Any organization that has actively sought to develop, impliment or support such laws (like the NFA, the GCA the AWB or HR2640) is, by definition a co-conspirator to the fiolation of USC 18 1 13 241.
2nd Amendment or no, the RKBA is a pre-existing fundamental Human and Civil RIGHT derived from the RIGHT to EXIST.
Take awa or restrict the tools of Self Defense and you take away or restrict Self Defense itself - and by logical extension, the RIGHT to preserve one's existence.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
I begin to think that it is time for me to slink off into the night.
Ain't no way, ain't no how.
You are part of what makes this work.
Unless you want to, of course. [;)]
I'm sure it is NOT easy being the target of so much misplaced anger.
Comments
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Old Ironsights;
Welcome...and excellent post. We that hold the line are few..and another is always greeted with glad cries of joy.
The rebuttal to your post, of course, is as I have already heard.." But nobody has been affected by the Law you mention"..Stupidity knowing no bounds, apparently...For the effect will be 5 or ten years down the road...as the Beast tools up their newest power grab.
Unfortunately, the NRA has become more infalible than the Pope to many folks. It's not just a Religion, it's a Cult that shall not be impuned whose absoluteists are as dogmatic as Scientologists.
On every forum I am on there is an NRA-ILA shill who does not actually believe in RKBA. Their every post and opinion proves this.
According to them, the Government has the "right" to say who has the privelege to possess firearms.
They believe that the GCA, despite being written in the virtual dark ages of medical science, and the 4473 are appropriate and absolute.
They believe that "Society" gets to decide what is apporpriate... just like "society" decided slavery was OK, just like "society" decided tha "racial hygene", sterilization & euthanasia of "undesirezbles" was OK, just like deciding that if the Govt declares you a "felon" or "mentally defective" (undesireable), the RKBA and the Right to Self Defense... the Right to LIFE can betaken from you.
These types have stated that they do not believe "certain people" should be allowed to possess firearms. That is a a de-facto declaration of their utter disregard of them as humans. No free person may be prevented from Self Defense. A firearm is nothing but a tool - the most effective tool - of Self defense. They want to deny that to a class of people which they unreasonably fear. That is, by definition, bigotry.
OTOH I'm dogmatic about ONE thing, that the RIGHT to KEEP and BEAR arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
Period. Not for ANY government definition. If you aren't locked up, you are FREE. If you aren't safe to be around, you should be locked up.
Self-defense is the absolute moral and ethical right of self-preservation from unjustified aggression.
Self-defense is the justified use of necessary force to stop unjustified aggression.
Self-defense requires willingness, ability and above all means.
Regulating "guns" is regulating the means to self-defense.
Self-defense regulated is self defense denied.
Denial of the right to self-defense is the denial of the right to exist, and is absolutely immoral and unethical.
... oh, hello. I'm philosophising again... [;)]
Welcome aboard sir.
Excellent, well reasoned posts. I get the feeling that it will be a pleasure seeing some of your future postings.
By the way, there isn't anything inherently wrong with philosophizing.....been known to wax philosophical myself now and then.[;)]
But that doesn't change the fact that the NRA is, by their own admission, first and formost a fundraising organization. And there is no better way to do that than to ensure that RKBA never "wins".
Why else would they try so hard to spike Heller before the were almost FORCED to support it
Why else would they waith until the SAF got the ball rolling on New Orleans before jumping in to take credit?
No, the NRA's POLITICAL WING is as much a part of the machine/problem as is anyone else with Potomac Fever. Without a Crisis, their money dries up - because as nice as Whittington is, it doesn't rake in the memberships (several thousand of which are required to pay the Vichy's salary alone each year...)
First, welcome to the forum, and for your 2p.
Interesting that you should bring up the "Veterans Disarmament Act" and the "Constructive Possession" aspect of that atrocity. Bear with me, I may jump around a bit. LOL
First the "Constructive Possession" part. On occasion, we have had people come through the forums, wondering what their legal obligation/restrictions are, if they are married to a felon. (Or in whatever capacity, living with same) The answer, of course, is that the party in question (the felon) is exactly as you described it. They can not have access to a single item relating to firearms. This includes the key or combination, if these items are on the premises, and locked up. ANY violation (a 22 round under the seat in the car) and you are now BOTH felons.
Some of the members here, have been trying to get the word out about the NRA, for a number of years. Years ago, when a thread was started about the NRA, there was about a 90-10% split. The 90% being FOR the NRA. Over the years, MANY have been educated as to their actions. I believe the split is closer to 50-50 now, maybe even 40-60. Probably will never know, as many keep quite, but they do read.
Bantering back and forth with pro-NRA members on these threads, is usually more of a mental exorcise in debating, as well as finding out how brainwashed some of the masses are. The intent is rarely to convince the debater on the other side, to change his mind. The "real" intent to these debates, is for the onlookers. The ones that never join in, but simply read, those who absorb the information.
Most times, those silent people are just like we were, when we first started to question the NRA. Brainwashed by the ONE SIDED information, that we have been spoon fed our whole lives, about how the NRA was protecting our Constitutional Rights. That without the NRA, we would have been disarmed long ago. (Yes I admit, I was one of the brainwashed)
Through the information super-highway, BOTH sides are now available, for anyone interested enough to look. That is why we debate, why I put in a link, to the information that I have posted about the NRA. For the ones that WILL take the time to educate themselves, the ones that will question.
MANY have watched, read, and started to question (not ready to go either way yet) while others bantered back and forth about the NRA over the years. I have gotten into the habit of letting the NRA prove itself. Once a member starts to question, along comes the NRA and pulls something like they just did, by getting in bed with the likes of McCarthy, Schumer, the Brady campaign, etc. to stab our veterans in the back. We are talking about OUR VETERANS, who have FOUGHT AND DIED FOR THIS COUNTY. Emails, letters, phone calls by members to the NRA, asking WHY they were advocating this bill, went unanswered.
MANY who were sitting on the fence about the NRA,
were SHOCKED and AWED by that move. [:(!]
Nothing I, or any of the other members here, could have said, would have even come close, to having the same impact as those actions by the NRA. Actions DO speak louder than words.
Does my jumping around makes sense now.
And I do agree that the NRA has many programs that ARE good. Their political wing is not one of them. Neither is their certification program. Why does a certified firearms instructor need to be RE-certified? Did something change? Did the rules on safety change? Or is it that they just want the additional funds?
Sorry to get carried away.
Rant off.
I begin to think that it is time for me to slink off into the night. There are MANY folks hereabouts that are far more capable then I at the word game ..able to convince without infuriating.
It was never easy ..being the target for the anger of basically decent people that dimly began to grasp that they have been cuckolded ..and their rage knows no bounds then...but it seemed to me the only way to batter down the walls that have been built of lies and deception from the government and the NRA.
The Second Amendment is so very simple ..only deception, treachery, deceit and the power-mad Elites have made it seemingly so very terribly complicated.
H.R. 2640: NICS Improvement Amendments Act of 2007
Introduced: Jun 11, 2007
Sponsor: Rep. Carolyn McCarthy [D-NY]
Status: Enacted
The text of the bill can be found here
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-2640
May the truth be the light that guides you!
I suggest you adhere to your tagline. You will find yourself MUCH closer to the Founders then to the Beast or the NRA...where you are now.
"I also will vouch for the 90-10 split, 8 years ago, on this Gun Site ..and how ironic is that...on a gun site, the number of people that are anti-gun."
You count me as Anti-gun but I am clearly not ANTI-GUN, I like them a lot, and if guns are banned I stand to lose thousands of dollars in assets
I am beginning to think I am ANTI-YOU and I am glad that there is enough moderate pro-gun support that even with help you might can't start a backlash that would abolish or ammend the second ammendment.
If the current gun control laws are so clearly unconstitutional why has not someone like yourself gone to court and gotten them overturned?
Why did the assault rifle ban have to sunset, it should have been overturned in the courts with its first enforcement.
If a constitutional ammendment to abolish the second ammendment was up for a vote how would you work to defeat it?
quote:, and if guns are banned I stand to lose thousands of dollars in assets Tough snit, jack...so sorry you might lose a buck.
Ever heard of FREEDOM ? Pretty clear not..since it never enters your lexicon...Money being your real God, perhaps...
Anti-Me ? Okay..I can stand a jack-booted thug lover despising me. No problem at all.
All the questions you asked..dilligently typing them out ? Just so much nonsense, when one understands where the Justice System is today..the only one that even nakes sense is the Constitutional Change.
And I might well work to get it passed...banning guns. The instant it passed..people like you would be forced to make a decision.
Live by it..or exert your God Given Right to be armed.
You obviously don't understand how "overturning" laws works. If "overturning" laws were as simple as that, you wouldn't have stupid "buggy whip" laws still on the books.
No, you have to have "standing", and to get "standing" you have to be directly "injured" by the law. Which means surviving the BATFE raid to confiscate today's "prohibited" gun. Good Luck.
SCOTUS won't even LOOK at an unconstitutional law until it has wound its way through the entire court system. Just look a Heller. Just look at how the NRA tried quite hard to STOP Heller from getting to SCOTUS.
You can't just "go to court". The "system" doesn't work that way.
quote:If a constitutional ammendment to abolish the second ammendment was up for a vote how would you work to defeat it?
I'd work in my State to make sure it didn't sign on, then I'd jon the (heavily armed) march on Washington DC to implement USC TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 13 ? 241.
? 241. Conspiracy against rights
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured-
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
Any Politician who has EVER signed a "gun control" law is, by this bit of FEDERAL LAW a FELON.
Any organization that has actively sought to develop, impliment or support such laws (like the NFA, the GCA the AWB or HR2640) is, by definition a co-conspirator to the fiolation of USC 18 1 13 241.
2nd Amendment or no, the RKBA is a pre-existing fundamental Human and Civil RIGHT derived from the RIGHT to EXIST.
Take awa or restrict the tools of Self Defense and you take away or restrict Self Defense itself - and by logical extension, the RIGHT to preserve one's existence.
THAT is what RKBA is all about.
I begin to think that it is time for me to slink off into the night.
Ain't no way, ain't no how.
You are part of what makes this work.
Unless you want to, of course. [;)]
I'm sure it is NOT easy being the target of so much misplaced anger.