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quote:Originally posted by Ol Grey Ghost
A coward am I now? Hang on a minute while I scratch the scar on my leg. Cried in my bunker in '68? I was still in grade school but I calmed the young officer's around when they were freaking under heavy fire and told them what orders to issue. Let me stop for a moment and look at my wall with all the medals for bravery on it as both my careers as a Police Officer and a Soldier in the U.S. Army. I am a member of the unofficial "800-meter Plus Club" for action when our troops were scared into deep hiding from a young man protecting his family's farm. You gentlemen need a course in Original Intent of the U.S. Constitution. Our soldiers are not supposed to be fighting other people's wars, they are supposed to be defending this country. Under the Second Amendment citizens have the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" but they have the responsibility to answer for a call-out of their local Militia. This is not being drafted, conscripted, or otherwise forced to serve in our National Armed Forces unless they should choose to do so and then they have sworn to follow all the orders given them by their superiors. But young people should not be suckered into believing the battlefield is a "Place of Honor." And all those you have said that our young people somehow "deserve" to spend some time in boot camp, it's easy to see the NAZI's did win.
A hearty "Sieg Heil" to y'all,
The Ol' Grey Ghost
"It is not the position of Government to grant us our Rights for they are given to us by our Creator and predate the very existence of Government. The proper role of Government is to protect those rights."
Okay, where were you in 1968 while in the army, what battalion, who was your CO, and what was your MOS you lying sack of stuff?
I smell a 16 year old troll!
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
Just the idea of forcing some of these 18-21s I see on MTV to go through 14-weeks of US Army Infantry OSUT makes me grin.
Then I think of the poor grunts who actually enlisted on their own, and would have to put up with them, get smoked for their pussiness, and try and work with them through those 14-weeks.
Nah, you can't force a square peg into a round hole. And you can't force an effete, cowardly, weak-willed, snotty little b-astard into a man's job, either.
There's a section from Henry V's St. Crispin's Day Speech that sums up my feelings pretty well:
"He which hath no stomach to this fight, let him depart! His passport shall be made, and crowns for convoy put into his purse. We would not die in the man's company that fears his fellowship to die with us."
If I'm going to buy it, I'd rather be surrounded with men who joined and fought and died of their own volition, with their eyes wide open and their hearts committed to what they were doing.
Let the little whiny brats sit on their couches and watch their TV and smoke their grass. We don't want them.
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
IMO, to me anyway, I think the fear would be the uncertainty and going for an unworthy cause. I really hope not to offend anyone here but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Iraq and Afghanistan is for a more worthy cause (for our nation) than Vietnam was. As soon as you hear draft, you immediately think about the nightmare of Vietnam. And no, I was'nt there but I've seen enough on it to know it was probably worse than I've seen. Are we better off now for fighting the war in Vietnam? I'm just asking what you guys think. I gurantee you we're better off with those training camps shut down in Afghanistan, Bin Laden on the run in hiding and Saddam in our custody. We installed Saddam, now we fixed our mess. Anyway, I know you don't get to pick and choose but I'd rather fight for THIS nation than someone elses if I was going to be forced to. If we were getting invaded, I wouldn't need to be forced. And as far as the fear of the uncertainty, I'd rather have them just pick a whole age group rather than all completely random. I still hold my position though that it should be saved for a national emergency and not used as an offensive military strategy. I don't think we should treat the nations youth like the national debt, like it doesn't matter...i.e., if we run out we'll just borrow (draft) more.
I had been called a coward by another posting party. I mention the medals for acts of bravery as it is ironic for me to read such a post and I turn my head and there they are (they are on the wall, they are not a wall full) and the reference to the dictionary was for the definition of boasting. I did not boast (most "boasters" are full of it and can't prove it when their cards are called) but defended my reputation.
Each medal is another nightmare I have to live with every night. Any soldier that tells you he doesn't have these nightmares wasn't where he says he was. To display your medals is supposed to be therapeutic and gives you a chance to "talk" when someone asks how you earned it (as you say, you don't earn them, you just survive and try to help as many of your buddies do the same as you can). My Father-in-law has his up on his living room wall from his service in Korea but he still won't talk much about them (he refuses to watch any War movie still to this day unless it has horses in it).
A draft does not solve our country's shortage of military personnel but getting them back to the duties assigned by our Constitution will. My son and I are prepared to defend the shores and borders of Texas with our own weapons and ammunition if need be and we are not afraid of dying if it saves my wife, daughter, and grandson. Forcing other people to go through military training as a way to straighten their sorry butts is illegal except for being legitimized by a draft (convicted criminals need their sorry butts straightened out but I wouldn't trust them with an M-16) and borders on authoritarianism.
And I find it really funny that supposedly Liberal Democrats are spreading the fear that Republicans will bring back the draft when the last few attempts to get a draft through congress were made by Liberal Democrats (I am a Sovereign Individual and rarely vote; I may again when they put "None of the Above" on the ballot).
For the effects of war and its brutality upon all I refer you to immortal words of General Robert E. Lee but I won't recite them because you seem to be a smart guy and I'll let you look them up and that way it will stick in your mind longer.
The Ol' Grey Ghost
"Make something 'idiot-proof' and only idiots will use it."
quote:Originally posted by Ol Grey Ghost
Forcing other people to go through military training as a way to straighten their sorry butts is illegal except for being legitimized by a draft ... and borders on authoritarianism.
You seem to be hitting on that note pretty hard, Mr. Ghost.
Were you brutalized in Basic training or something? If it isn't too painful, I'd like to hear about it.
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
vess1: at the risk of getting entangled in a discussion between messrs Ghost, Christian,et al; I'll respond to a comment that you made regarding the worth of the Vietnam conflict. The problem is similar to the present war on terrorism: a misunderstanding of what the goal of the conflict is. In Iraq the initial goal was to remove Sadam from power, diminish the risk of NBC attack, and to establish a democratic form of government. The first two goals have been met, however the third is becoming more of a problem because there are several vested interests that want the power and they don't want any elections to screw things up; so various religious groups and adjoining countries are doing what they can to destable-ize the area. By outlasting them until the Iraqi people can get control of the government sufficient to show these groups that they will not prevail, would result in our gaining goal #3. Vietnam was similar in that the perception on the home front was that the US was going to war with the Viet Cong and the NVA. When all the VC/NVA were killed then we'd be the winner of the war. Actually we were doing a pretty fair job of it, I saw recently that the confirmed kills in the "American War" were 1,400,000. The political claim was that we were building up the South VietNam military so that they could defend themselves. Here is where the real difference between Iraq and VN lay; the government of RVN was focused on it's own well-being, arresting dissidents, skimming funds, etc, so that when the time was right, they would flee, leaving the country to it's own fate. I see none of this in Iraq. Given the nature of the various regimes in RVN, what the US military was actually doing was drawing a line in the sand and telling the Communist Bloc that if they were going to take RVN, it was going to be expensive. It turned out to be so expensive that China virtually ceased expansionism and USSR was unable to gain access to the Indian Ocean and finally collapsed. So did the US gain from the Vietnam conflict? It can be answered without reservation that the free world gained, primarily in that it was the high-water mark of Communistic encroachment. Did the US win or lose? That is a question that requires a comparison of what was gained and what was lost. Lost were the lives of 60,000 men and women; 4 times that many severely wounded; many more thousand affected with various disorders. But to make a complete determination, one must also answer what would have happened had the conflict not been fought? And when those consequences are considered, then any rational person would conclude that the free world gained more than was lost by the Vietnam conflict; and that the results of the Iraq conflict will also be viewed historically as one of the US's better investments. A review of negotiations involving Neville Chamberlain may illustrate these points.
I thought when I entered this forum it would be a place for intelligent and intellectual discussion on political issues of the day or of the past, but I find the most vocal members can only engage in character assassination and insults which is the poorest form of debate and shows you have no other recourse to establish any logic to your position but to "assail" somebody with a difference of opinion (if I was physically present with some of you, I strongly believe you might try to physically attack me; truly the sign of those who missed a few rungs on the evolutionary ladder). I am a Retired/Disabled Veteran (U.S. Army) and a former Police Officer but as I said I'm retired not retarded. If I provide enough specific information of my military or law enforcement career, some of you can use the information to steal my identity and run a large bill on my credit cards and tamper with my medical records, both criminal offenses I will see prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you want to discuss something on a sidebar, my E-mail address is posted (OlGreyGhost@sbcglobal.net) for those who wish to engage in a higher class of discussion than what is obviously available on this forum. If you only send insults or SPAM, I will see that you are charged and arrested under all Federal laws and laws of the State of my residence that apply in such matters.
A draft is a violation of the Constitution (4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 13th Amds.) and cannot justifiably be used in a free society. To violate this point of our rights and freedoms is to establish that the Constitution protects nothing (don't fret much, Lincoln did a fine job of abolishing the Constitution during his time). If you want young people to be shoved around in our military and forced to catch bullets with their vital organs, then please be the first to sign up yourselves and bring your sons and daughters with you. For those of you who believe everybody needs to be abused during some form of military training then turn yourselves into the police now and try to prevent those other violent crimes you may intend to commit in the future. And wear your white hoods so we can distinguish you from other normal human beings.
God bless our children in uniform and in harm's way and bring them home soon.
The Ol' Grey Ghost
"I study War so that my son may study Law and so that his son may study Art." paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson
I tried to join the marines and the army but they would'nt let me because i quit school. I wanted to be in the infantry, i really don't see why they won't accept people without a diploma. Maybe they will have a draft and i will get to go.
There have been several studies that have shown that our all-volunteer force is more efficient and effective than in days when the draft was imposed. They show that volunteer troops are generally better motivated and better prepared than those who are in the military solely to fulfill a draft commitment.
If this is the case, why are so many here willing to compromise military readiness by reinstituting the draft???
It seems most people here advocate reinstituting the draft as a form of social engineering...to instill their view of patriotism in what they view as a wayward younger generation.
In addition to the duties involved in humanitarian missions, playing "international police officer" and genuine defense of US interests, why do so many of you want to saddle our military forces with the additional duty of "national babysitter"???
For those who claim that reinstituting the draft is a good idea and yet claim they like lower taxes, who would pay for all the draftees? To be able to afford them, you'd have to drastically increase taxes, or you'd have to cut pay and benefits across the board for those who voluntarily sign up and those who are drafted...which would INEVITABLY demoralize those who volunteered for service. Does that really sound like a bright idea?
My opinion regarding fighting a war in some foreign land for someone else istead of just protecting the USA.
Those that say we are fighting someone else's fight are dead wrong.
We are in Iraq because we brought the war to the terrorists after being attacked. We started in Afganistan and took it to Iraq because they were harboring 1000s of terrorists and the Bush Doctrine says that we will hunt down the terrorists and that any country that harbors them are considered against us. Iraq will not be the last.
I agree with the Bush Doctrine that we would rather take the fight to them rather than have them fighting in our streets.
quote:Originally posted by snapchip
I tried to join the marines and the army but they would'nt let me because i quit school. I wanted to be in the infantry, i really don't see why they won't accept people without a diploma.
Because being an infantryman no longer consists of knowing how to follow orders and pull a trigger.
Now I'm not saying this job requries a brain surgeon, but the modern infantryman is required to operate a series of increasingly technical battlefield systems and operational methods that generally require more brainpower than your average idiot can offer.
On top of which, we have an all-volunteer force, and we no longer need (nor claim to cater to) the poor and shiftless of the nation's factories, pool halls, and street-corners.
I'm sure none of that applies to you, of course, but if you want to join I'd advise you go to get a GED and take the ASVAB.
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
Hey Bullz, I used to shoot in a lot of pool halls. The most playing was in a pretty famous one. Mizerak's Billiards in Perth Amboy, NJ. And yup, I was given many a lesson by Steve Jr. himself [:D]
quote:Originally posted by Ol Grey Ghost
I thought when I entered this forum it would be a place for intelligent and intellectual discussion on political issues of the day or of the past, but I find the most vocal members can only engage in character assassination and insults which is the poorest form of debate ...truly the sign of those who missed a few rungs on the evolutionary ladder)....And wear your white hoods so we can distinguish you from other normal human beings.
You crack me up. Not that I would want to debate you but how could anyone debate someone that so contradictory in the same breath.
quote:Originally posted by snapchip
I tried to join the marines and the army but they would'nt let me because i quit school. I wanted to be in the infantry, i really don't see why they won't accept people without a diploma. Maybe they will have a draft and i will get to go.
I feel the same way, the military doesnt want fighters anyomre, they want nerds. I am 34 years old, dropped out of highscool and raised a family, screwed up as a teen but I want to try and undo that and join but the meanies won't let me. If a draft comes about I will be begging to join, stand in line yelling "me me take me!" I do have a backup plan wich involves contacting an elected official to help boost me in, I am sceduled to take a Pre Asvab soon and if the scores are right it is time to start writing letters. I am very pro Iraq war and if the crap hits the fan and we fight other nations under Bush I want to be there, at 34 yeaqrs of age I am all I am ever going to be, a worn out truck driver, this is a chance for me to do something for me and I want to go to war, now! Go ahead, draft me, I'll be there smiling!
____________________________________________________
I'm not apologizing, I am what I am
There is no compromising, I don't give a damn
Ozzy Osbourne - Lightning Strikes
Gee guys, didnt expect this at all. Figured I would be shot down in flames when I posted it. Most all of you give me new hope for our
country. As a last parting shot and then no more, fighting on another
countries soil sure beats having to fight on our own soil. Seen what
happened in too many countries to families, dwellings, and utilities.
Mark : That vet you quoted, sure sounds like one sour apple. Sure,
things were not perfect, but I and most of us didnt b*tch that much.
Just maybe, the Division I was in was different. Just what outfit was
he with to be this harrassed and see that much waste??
Liar. If you were disabled enough to be classified "disabled" by the DOD, you most likely could not pass a physical to qualify as a certified police officer.
Like Lowrider said, get a new user name. You've ruined this one.
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
I have mixed feelings on this one. I agree that people should be willing to defend their country if the need arises, and I also think that a lot of people would benefit from a few years in the military. That said I have serious issues with where our country is headed and what our military will be used for in the future. I beleive wearing a light blue beret for the UN is Blasphemous, and I would never serve under an officer or NCO of another nation besides our own. I think(especially if Kerry wins) our troops will be used more and more for the UN's needs and I disagree with this more than anything else going on today. So yes the military is a good place to do some growing up, but I am not for forcing our troops to serve under any flag other than the stars and stripes, unless of course we resurect the stars and bars!!!![;)]
Here's the e-mail he sent me last night. Takes a better man than me to figure out what he was saying.
<Quote Ol' Grey Ghost>
MOS - 97B, 71M
Rank - unsure E-4 sometimes SPC sometimes CPL depends on which section of the
Army is writing me. Generally didn't wear rank in field. Sometimes I was a LTC
and others a CPT depending on mission.
All combat assignments I could still walk to as of this date (a few more months
and I can roll there in a wheelchair) which means they were on the land masses
known as North and South America.
You figure it from there.
Honorably retired May 21st during the 90's
October 1st 1987 awarded the () Police Department Medal of Meritorious Valor for
the capture and arrest of an Attempted Capital Murder and Aggravated Kidnapping
Suspect at serious risk to my own life, above and beyond the call of duty.
Beyond that I don't see any need to justify myself to you or any of you ilk.
<Quote>
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
quote:MOS - 97B, 71M
Rank - unsure E-4 sometimes SPC sometimes CPL depends on which section of the
Army is writing me. Generally didn't wear rank in field. Sometimes I was a LTC
and others a CPT depending on mission.
If that doesn't prove he's full of pop, I don't know what does![:D]
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
quote:Originally posted by Lowrider
Rank - unsure E-4 sometimes SPC sometimes CPL depends on which section of the Army is writing me. Generally didn't wear rank in field. Sometimes I was a LTC and others a CPT depending on mission.
Oh man, this dude's totally singin' my song, here. [:D]
-SPC/CPL/LTC/CPT (when he bothers to wear rank at all) Bullzeye
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
He flew with the "Black Helicopter Squadron" stationed at Area 51! So secret, the dude didn't even know his own rank! Got the scar from tripping over some part of a wrecked flying saucer[}:)]!
I'm surprised! Usually the Valor Thieves try & hook-up as a VietVet. This one is stealing from the likes of my sister, who at the time was a Tank Retriever Commander in Honduras, regarding Nicaragua. So what rank is the designation that looks like a derivation of either a Lance Corporal or at Light Bird?
I see trouble is back on the line again. All right guys rip me up if you feel better about yourselves afterwards. Nobody still has really presented a logical rebuttal to my point that a draft is a violation of the Constitution. Just let me thank you guys for the new Ford Freestar Mini-van adapted to assist my wife in getting me in and out of the vehicle with room for my new wheelchair. Thanks for paying for my wife to be my primary health provider so she doesn't have to work outside the home and worry about me at the same time. My neighbor's son thanks you for paying him to mow and take care of my lawn. Let me really thank you for the ADA adapted bedroom and bathroom that will be built on soon so that I can around better (but before anyone rips me for trying the pity route, you folks are the last people I would want any from and I don't need any; I intend to live a long full life to enjoy you guys paying for all this as long as possible). These thanks are of course only if you pay taxes.
Just a few points to straighten out. I was a Police Officer before joining the Army (I put my law enforcement career on hold for a 5-year commitment but by becoming disabled through poor judgement of personnel at the Pentagon I could not return to it). I was a SPC E-4 upon entry and at retirement. The Army thinks I may have been laterally promoted to CPL. Doesn't really matter now. Because of my assignments, I did not wear rank on BDU's or sometimes I just wore suits so that NCO's and Officers that were being investigated would not try to intimidate me with their rank. I was once assigned to act undercover as a LTC and on another as a CPT with full necessary brass, uniform, and I.D. I do not have any Silver or Bronze Stars because one has to enter a designated Hostile Zone to be awarded one. Bullets don't really care what anyone has designated something.
But you guys have your fun. Ironic though that I don't remember any of you listing your units, your Commanding Officers, or any other identifying remarks of your experience (and don't start listing any; you don't trust me and I don't trust you so it will be a big waste of time).
To the young man that was refused by the Marines and Army: Since you want to join I suspect you realize what you are in for. Good! Since you know how to use a computer and post to this forum you are definitely not an idiot. Don't answer me but ask yourself: did you quit school because you couldn't handle the workload or because you have problems with authority figures? If the latter, was it one *-retentive type or all teachers and administrators? If you have trouble with people bossing you around then the military is not for you but if it was just one really DWHUA-type then you should make it. Just remember there are the same in the military (Cream rises to the top but so does dross). A three-day Adult Education course and you will have your GED and you're on your way (if there is a draft, then the military will issue you one; "Who was the first president of the United States?...Uh, Abraham Lincoln?...Close enough, here's your GED).
To the young man turned down because of chronic health problems: Check with your local Police Reserve Force or Volunteer Fire Department. They are usually a little more lax on health problems and you will still be on the frontline of the "War on (some) Terrorists." If anything else let me recommend the Red Cross Disaster Response Teams.
There is no need to go overseas to fight this war because it is coming to us and our government only made it worse by fighting over there. And this time they're not going after big symbols of "American Capitalism" but where we live; Friday night High-School Football games, Pizza Huts, bowling alleys and (surprise) pool halls. What you see on the news about Israel is coming to America. We must prepare as the Israelis have and that means soldiers, Marines, airmen, and sailors here, not overseas protecting some other country where the people don't want us.
Well, my grandson is calling so y'all try to have nice Yellow day,
The Ol' Grey Ghost (I have no need to change my pseudonym as it has served me well over the last decade)
"I am afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with great resolve"
Pardon me to all hell and gone. Just what is a MOS 97B and a 71M?
Only MOS I know is 745 (Infantry Rifleman) . Lucky to remember my own.
Now I understand it is a MOS 11 B. (?)
joe: quote: Pardon me to all hell and gone. Just what is a MOS 97B and a 71M?
Only MOS I know is 745 (Infantry Rifleman) . Lucky to remember my own.
Now I understand it is a MOS 11 B. (?) Joe, the MOS 97B is counterintelligence and 71M is Chaplain. So I guess our Ghost (as in Holy?) was an undercover chaplain seeking out those pretending to be Christians. [;)][}:)]
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Comments
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
A coward am I now? Hang on a minute while I scratch the scar on my leg. Cried in my bunker in '68? I was still in grade school but I calmed the young officer's around when they were freaking under heavy fire and told them what orders to issue. Let me stop for a moment and look at my wall with all the medals for bravery on it as both my careers as a Police Officer and a Soldier in the U.S. Army. I am a member of the unofficial "800-meter Plus Club" for action when our troops were scared into deep hiding from a young man protecting his family's farm. You gentlemen need a course in Original Intent of the U.S. Constitution. Our soldiers are not supposed to be fighting other people's wars, they are supposed to be defending this country. Under the Second Amendment citizens have the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" but they have the responsibility to answer for a call-out of their local Militia. This is not being drafted, conscripted, or otherwise forced to serve in our National Armed Forces unless they should choose to do so and then they have sworn to follow all the orders given them by their superiors. But young people should not be suckered into believing the battlefield is a "Place of Honor." And all those you have said that our young people somehow "deserve" to spend some time in boot camp, it's easy to see the NAZI's did win.
A hearty "Sieg Heil" to y'all,
The Ol' Grey Ghost
"It is not the position of Government to grant us our Rights for they are given to us by our Creator and predate the very existence of Government. The proper role of Government is to protect those rights."
Okay, where were you in 1968 while in the army, what battalion, who was your CO, and what was your MOS you lying sack of stuff?
I smell a 16 year old troll!
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
Then I think of the poor grunts who actually enlisted on their own, and would have to put up with them, get smoked for their pussiness, and try and work with them through those 14-weeks.
Nah, you can't force a square peg into a round hole. And you can't force an effete, cowardly, weak-willed, snotty little b-astard into a man's job, either.
There's a section from Henry V's St. Crispin's Day Speech that sums up my feelings pretty well:
"He which hath no stomach to this fight, let him depart! His passport shall be made, and crowns for convoy put into his purse. We would not die in the man's company that fears his fellowship to die with us."
If I'm going to buy it, I'd rather be surrounded with men who joined and fought and died of their own volition, with their eyes wide open and their hearts committed to what they were doing.
Let the little whiny brats sit on their couches and watch their TV and smoke their grass. We don't want them.
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
I had been called a coward by another posting party. I mention the medals for acts of bravery as it is ironic for me to read such a post and I turn my head and there they are (they are on the wall, they are not a wall full) and the reference to the dictionary was for the definition of boasting. I did not boast (most "boasters" are full of it and can't prove it when their cards are called) but defended my reputation.
Each medal is another nightmare I have to live with every night. Any soldier that tells you he doesn't have these nightmares wasn't where he says he was. To display your medals is supposed to be therapeutic and gives you a chance to "talk" when someone asks how you earned it (as you say, you don't earn them, you just survive and try to help as many of your buddies do the same as you can). My Father-in-law has his up on his living room wall from his service in Korea but he still won't talk much about them (he refuses to watch any War movie still to this day unless it has horses in it).
A draft does not solve our country's shortage of military personnel but getting them back to the duties assigned by our Constitution will. My son and I are prepared to defend the shores and borders of Texas with our own weapons and ammunition if need be and we are not afraid of dying if it saves my wife, daughter, and grandson. Forcing other people to go through military training as a way to straighten their sorry butts is illegal except for being legitimized by a draft (convicted criminals need their sorry butts straightened out but I wouldn't trust them with an M-16) and borders on authoritarianism.
And I find it really funny that supposedly Liberal Democrats are spreading the fear that Republicans will bring back the draft when the last few attempts to get a draft through congress were made by Liberal Democrats (I am a Sovereign Individual and rarely vote; I may again when they put "None of the Above" on the ballot).
For the effects of war and its brutality upon all I refer you to immortal words of General Robert E. Lee but I won't recite them because you seem to be a smart guy and I'll let you look them up and that way it will stick in your mind longer.
The Ol' Grey Ghost
"Make something 'idiot-proof' and only idiots will use it."
Forcing other people to go through military training as a way to straighten their sorry butts is illegal except for being legitimized by a draft ... and borders on authoritarianism.
You seem to be hitting on that note pretty hard, Mr. Ghost.
Were you brutalized in Basic training or something? If it isn't too painful, I'd like to hear about it.
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
2nd request.
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
A draft is a violation of the Constitution (4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 13th Amds.) and cannot justifiably be used in a free society. To violate this point of our rights and freedoms is to establish that the Constitution protects nothing (don't fret much, Lincoln did a fine job of abolishing the Constitution during his time). If you want young people to be shoved around in our military and forced to catch bullets with their vital organs, then please be the first to sign up yourselves and bring your sons and daughters with you. For those of you who believe everybody needs to be abused during some form of military training then turn yourselves into the police now and try to prevent those other violent crimes you may intend to commit in the future. And wear your white hoods so we can distinguish you from other normal human beings.
God bless our children in uniform and in harm's way and bring them home soon.
The Ol' Grey Ghost
"I study War so that my son may study Law and so that his son may study Art." paraphrase of Thomas Jefferson
Seriously, though.
I am not afraid. I was rejected when I tried to enlist in the Navy (chronic, life-long health problems), which would make me exempt.
Would I fight?
Hell yes.
Chrome don't get you home.
If this is the case, why are so many here willing to compromise military readiness by reinstituting the draft???
It seems most people here advocate reinstituting the draft as a form of social engineering...to instill their view of patriotism in what they view as a wayward younger generation.
In addition to the duties involved in humanitarian missions, playing "international police officer" and genuine defense of US interests, why do so many of you want to saddle our military forces with the additional duty of "national babysitter"???
For those who claim that reinstituting the draft is a good idea and yet claim they like lower taxes, who would pay for all the draftees? To be able to afford them, you'd have to drastically increase taxes, or you'd have to cut pay and benefits across the board for those who voluntarily sign up and those who are drafted...which would INEVITABLY demoralize those who volunteered for service. Does that really sound like a bright idea?
Those that say we are fighting someone else's fight are dead wrong.
We are in Iraq because we brought the war to the terrorists after being attacked. We started in Afganistan and took it to Iraq because they were harboring 1000s of terrorists and the Bush Doctrine says that we will hunt down the terrorists and that any country that harbors them are considered against us. Iraq will not be the last.
I agree with the Bush Doctrine that we would rather take the fight to them rather than have them fighting in our streets.
I tried to join the marines and the army but they would'nt let me because i quit school. I wanted to be in the infantry, i really don't see why they won't accept people without a diploma.
Because being an infantryman no longer consists of knowing how to follow orders and pull a trigger.
Now I'm not saying this job requries a brain surgeon, but the modern infantryman is required to operate a series of increasingly technical battlefield systems and operational methods that generally require more brainpower than your average idiot can offer.
On top of which, we have an all-volunteer force, and we no longer need (nor claim to cater to) the poor and shiftless of the nation's factories, pool halls, and street-corners.
I'm sure none of that applies to you, of course, but if you want to join I'd advise you go to get a GED and take the ASVAB.
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
Do any names come to mind?
Most previous wars had a good reason to defend a known enemy. Most, not all.
Today do we really know who is the enemy?
I think not.
Armcandy
Ol' Grey Ghost get a new username?
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
I thought when I entered this forum it would be a place for intelligent and intellectual discussion on political issues of the day or of the past, but I find the most vocal members can only engage in character assassination and insults which is the poorest form of debate ...truly the sign of those who missed a few rungs on the evolutionary ladder)....And wear your white hoods so we can distinguish you from other normal human beings.
You crack me up. Not that I would want to debate you but how could anyone debate someone that so contradictory in the same breath.
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
I tried to join the marines and the army but they would'nt let me because i quit school. I wanted to be in the infantry, i really don't see why they won't accept people without a diploma. Maybe they will have a draft and i will get to go.
I feel the same way, the military doesnt want fighters anyomre, they want nerds. I am 34 years old, dropped out of highscool and raised a family, screwed up as a teen but I want to try and undo that and join but the meanies won't let me. If a draft comes about I will be begging to join, stand in line yelling "me me take me!" I do have a backup plan wich involves contacting an elected official to help boost me in, I am sceduled to take a Pre Asvab soon and if the scores are right it is time to start writing letters. I am very pro Iraq war and if the crap hits the fan and we fight other nations under Bush I want to be there, at 34 yeaqrs of age I am all I am ever going to be, a worn out truck driver, this is a chance for me to do something for me and I want to go to war, now! Go ahead, draft me, I'll be there smiling!
____________________________________________________
I'm not apologizing, I am what I am
There is no compromising, I don't give a damn
Ozzy Osbourne - Lightning Strikes
country. As a last parting shot and then no more, fighting on another
countries soil sure beats having to fight on our own soil. Seen what
happened in too many countries to families, dwellings, and utilities.
Mark : That vet you quoted, sure sounds like one sour apple. Sure,
things were not perfect, but I and most of us didnt b*tch that much.
Just maybe, the Division I was in was different. Just what outfit was
he with to be this harrassed and see that much waste??
Like Lowrider said, get a new user name. You've ruined this one.
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
<Quote Ol' Grey Ghost>
MOS - 97B, 71M
Rank - unsure E-4 sometimes SPC sometimes CPL depends on which section of the
Army is writing me. Generally didn't wear rank in field. Sometimes I was a LTC
and others a CPT depending on mission.
All combat assignments I could still walk to as of this date (a few more months
and I can roll there in a wheelchair) which means they were on the land masses
known as North and South America.
You figure it from there.
Honorably retired May 21st during the 90's
October 1st 1987 awarded the () Police Department Medal of Meritorious Valor for
the capture and arrest of an Attempted Capital Murder and Aggravated Kidnapping
Suspect at serious risk to my own life, above and beyond the call of duty.
Beyond that I don't see any need to justify myself to you or any of you ilk.
<Quote>
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
Rank - unsure E-4 sometimes SPC sometimes CPL depends on which section of the
Army is writing me. Generally didn't wear rank in field. Sometimes I was a LTC
and others a CPT depending on mission.
If that doesn't prove he's full of pop, I don't know what does![:D]
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
Ben
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time, but also to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment."
Rank - unsure E-4 sometimes SPC sometimes CPL depends on which section of the Army is writing me. Generally didn't wear rank in field. Sometimes I was a LTC and others a CPT depending on mission.
Oh man, this dude's totally singin' my song, here. [:D]
-SPC/CPL/LTC/CPT (when he bothers to wear rank at all) Bullzeye
"Our finest tribute to our fallen dead would be to convince their sons that we were not Rambo and neither are they. -Gus Hasford
How you doin'!
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!
He flew with the "Black Helicopter Squadron" stationed at Area 51! So secret, the dude didn't even know his own rank! Got the scar from tripping over some part of a wrecked flying saucer[}:)]!
Chrome don't get you home.
Just a few points to straighten out. I was a Police Officer before joining the Army (I put my law enforcement career on hold for a 5-year commitment but by becoming disabled through poor judgement of personnel at the Pentagon I could not return to it). I was a SPC E-4 upon entry and at retirement. The Army thinks I may have been laterally promoted to CPL. Doesn't really matter now. Because of my assignments, I did not wear rank on BDU's or sometimes I just wore suits so that NCO's and Officers that were being investigated would not try to intimidate me with their rank. I was once assigned to act undercover as a LTC and on another as a CPT with full necessary brass, uniform, and I.D. I do not have any Silver or Bronze Stars because one has to enter a designated Hostile Zone to be awarded one. Bullets don't really care what anyone has designated something.
But you guys have your fun. Ironic though that I don't remember any of you listing your units, your Commanding Officers, or any other identifying remarks of your experience (and don't start listing any; you don't trust me and I don't trust you so it will be a big waste of time).
To the young man that was refused by the Marines and Army: Since you want to join I suspect you realize what you are in for. Good! Since you know how to use a computer and post to this forum you are definitely not an idiot. Don't answer me but ask yourself: did you quit school because you couldn't handle the workload or because you have problems with authority figures? If the latter, was it one *-retentive type or all teachers and administrators? If you have trouble with people bossing you around then the military is not for you but if it was just one really DWHUA-type then you should make it. Just remember there are the same in the military (Cream rises to the top but so does dross). A three-day Adult Education course and you will have your GED and you're on your way (if there is a draft, then the military will issue you one; "Who was the first president of the United States?...Uh, Abraham Lincoln?...Close enough, here's your GED).
To the young man turned down because of chronic health problems: Check with your local Police Reserve Force or Volunteer Fire Department. They are usually a little more lax on health problems and you will still be on the frontline of the "War on (some) Terrorists." If anything else let me recommend the Red Cross Disaster Response Teams.
There is no need to go overseas to fight this war because it is coming to us and our government only made it worse by fighting over there. And this time they're not going after big symbols of "American Capitalism" but where we live; Friday night High-School Football games, Pizza Huts, bowling alleys and (surprise) pool halls. What you see on the news about Israel is coming to America. We must prepare as the Israelis have and that means soldiers, Marines, airmen, and sailors here, not overseas protecting some other country where the people don't want us.
Well, my grandson is calling so y'all try to have nice Yellow day,
The Ol' Grey Ghost (I have no need to change my pseudonym as it has served me well over the last decade)
"I am afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with great resolve"
Only MOS I know is 745 (Infantry Rifleman) . Lucky to remember my own.
Now I understand it is a MOS 11 B. (?)
Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.
Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
She was only a fisherman's daughter,
But when she saw my rod she reeled.
Only MOS I know is 745 (Infantry Rifleman) . Lucky to remember my own.
Now I understand it is a MOS 11 B. (?) Joe, the MOS 97B is counterintelligence and 71M is Chaplain. So I guess our Ghost (as in Holy?) was an undercover chaplain seeking out those pretending to be Christians. [;)][}:)]
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
BUSH AND CHENEY--NO MORE YEARS!