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quote:Originally posted by LesWVa
All you have to do is look at inter city gangs.
They were people just like us that lived mostly at peace together until drugs tore them apart. Now it is brother against brother, neighborhood against neighborhood. They threw the "love thy neighbor" out the door and will kill for the color of a rag.
I believe that America will split and a war will be on. Just a matter of time..
Without trying to be a smart alleck, or a know it all, I can say that from a historical standpoint we are well past our time for a revamping. Almost all societies rarely have lasted longer then 150 years. There are a few exceptions, but they tend to be small neutral, isolated societies with few resources worth taking.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
Holy Cross Lutheran as well......
You do services this morning?
early morning
You get some revolution stuff this morning instead of the usual Mothers Day schpeel?
got both, but there have been mentions of the change coming to society for a couple months now. Not outright revolution talk, but talk of being prepared, etc
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
Oliver North referred to a "Higher Law" than Congress in his testimony. The democrats laughed at that notion.
Yes, I agree. "IT" is coming.
Ultimately any good Lutheran should ask this question;
WHAT WOULD MARTIN LUTHER DO?
I suspect, he'd say it like it is from the pulpit. If you have a preacher that isn't afraid to do that, you have yourself a good one.
Frankly, I don't think Martin Luther would recognize the church in it's current position.
You gotta understand, Luther never wanted to start a sect. He was called The Reformer, because he wanted a few changes in the the Catholic church. I think he would be very comfortable in the old German church I go to. He might be a little embarassed that we sing "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" since he wrote it. I think he would be very glad that we have kept to his teachings, and have preserved the old Catholic tradition before, what he saw, as outside influences had changed the church.
A lot of what Luther tried to change in the Catholic church, has already changed.
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
Funny how we all know this president is on a road to destruction. We see the path he is taking America. Heck, you can't buy ammo since he was elected because the demand is too high.
Yet, very few dare to talk about it.
This president will bring blood shed to America's streets.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Dumb question...what is an "Alter Call"?
It is an offer to see if anyone would like to pray to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior (after describing what that means).
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Do you think it might be time to find a new church.?.?...one more in line with your personal convictions.?.?
I grew up bouncing around from church to church. THis was one of them that my parents attended twice and left twice. This church has NEVER had a preacher leave and still be licensed to preach in Illinois by the denomination. This preacher isn't bad. He provides some stability and maturity which the church needs.
In any case, for various reasons, I ain't leaving. For a church to succeed, sometimes some people need to leave and others need to stay and make a stand. If the time comes, I'll stay and make things uncomfortable but I don't think this guy is bad. Dry, but OK.
He will open the alter in a general way, but he won't make that "alter call" . I think it is more of a courage thing with him. I thin he gets nervous about doing it for whatever reason.
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Do you think it might be time to find a new church.?.?...one more in line with your personal convictions.?.?
I grew up bouncing around from church to church. THis was one of them that my parents attended twice and left twice. This church has NEVER had a preacher leave and still be licensed to preach in Illinois by the denomination. This preacher isn't bad. He provides some stability and maturity which the church needs.
In any case, for various reasons, I ain't leaving. For a church to succeed, sometimes some people need to leave and others need to stay and make a stand. If the time comes, I'll stay and make things uncomfortable but I don't think this guy is bad. Dry, but OK.
He will open the alter in a general way, but he won't make that "alter call" . I think it is more of a courage thing with him. I thin he gets nervous about doing it for whatever reason.
My current pastor does the very same thing...and I confronted him about it. You hit the nail on the head. He doesn't do very many alter calls, b/c of the fear of rejection over and over...I guess it can be hard on you...especially if you use it as a gauge to measure your success. The thing is, he is a brilliant teacher and pastor of his flock. He also expects his flock to be witnessing and ministering to folks. I have come to understand his reasoning...he admitted that it was a weak point for him. I will continue to pray for him in this area. I would love to see an alter call EVERY Sunday.
At any rate, I can understand where your pastor is coming from.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by ECC
I would love to see an alter call EVERY Sunday.
Grrrrr.....someone enlighten me please.
I already did...please read a few posts above...your question was answered.
Indeed. I understand. Not at all a Lutheran thing. Some of the stuff introduced into the faith since Wesley and Smith need to be explained at times to me. I know a lot about the original faiths, but little about the modern ones...except Mormons. Had a few of them where I was raised.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
As a devout Christian, an ultra-conservative, and a lay preacher I have a serious problem with "politice from the pulpit." A pastor who spends too much time on the outside world's problems is spending too little on his congregation's problems -- althouogh I agree he should not ignore the outside world completely. There should never, never, never be an opportunity lost to preach the Gospel.
So I suspect your congregation's elders might have a chat with the pastor about his sermon. Even if they personally agree with him, they should be concerned about why that pulpit exists in the first place (this is exactly why Jeremiah Wright is going to have a very uncomfortable visit when he finally meets Almighty God).
I think it was inappropriate, especially to take up the entire sermon. A mention is one thing, but an entire sermon is wrong.
I stand by ECC in his statement that Mormonism is a cult. While this is a gun forum, not a religious one, this topic is about religion and the cat is out of the bag. God loves all Mormons, but He does not love their church. It is a cult, and not a part of Christ's greater Church. I have friends who are Mormon, and they know I would not attack their personal beliefs. But if someone is considering joining LDS, as a Christian I have a duty to warn them.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
I am not going to debate apostacy that has crept into the church since Luther. Nor am I going to talk about the heretical teachings of John Wesley, Calvin, or Smith. People just get their feelings hurt.
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
No...I am very familiar with their religion. I also personally know many Mormons. I have studied their religion more in depth than most Mormons have.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
I am not going to debate apostacy that has crept into the church since Luther. Nor am I going to talk about the heretical teachings of John Wesley, Calvin, or Smith. People just get their feelings hurt.
I am still a little upset at LCMS that I have attended for changing from the Old Hymnal to the New Blue one [:)]
quote:Originally posted by burdz19
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
I am not going to debate apostacy that has crept into the church since Luther. Nor am I going to talk about the heretical teachings of John Wesley, Calvin, or Smith. People just get their feelings hurt.
I am still a little upset at LCMS that I have attended for changing from the Old Hymnal to the New Blue one [:)]
We still use the old one...AND we still sing most of the responsive stuff. It is, however, now in English not German.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
No...I am very familiar with their religion. I also personally know many Mormons. I have studied their religion more in depth than most Mormons have.
I have lived with a Mormon family and studied them indepth. My biggest issue is with the Masonry symbolism that was the foundation of their faith. Lutherans do not allow anyone in a secret society to take communion, or have their Diest funeral ceremonies in the church or at the graveside.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
No...I am very familiar with their religion. I also personally know many Mormons. I have studied their religion more in depth than most Mormons have.
ECC - I do not hesitate to say that I've forgotten more about the LDS Church, than you'll ever know.
If you knew as much about them as I do, you'd be a member of the LDS Church. [;)]
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
"Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs."
If you've never seen one or know only the brief descriptions posted here, with all due respect, I do not think that you are in a position to make such pronouncements about the primitive Church and what the apostles would have recognized or found expedient in their gatherings. I find it difficult to believe that there could be anything simpler or authentic, but as I have previously stated, I think it is okay anyway God sees fit to call and save a man.
Is there something specific that offends you in an altar call ?
I'm mystified by the objection.
No objection. I met a guy once who smoked pot as part of his religious ritual to Mother Earth. Fine by me.
I am just saying that all that "saved" stuff and fundementalist holy rolling circus stuff has been introduced very recently and is an American phenomonon. And for those who claim that the "saved by repentance" thing, then prior to 150 years ago, nobody could have been "saved". Again..I will stop here as religion is personal, and folks get offended easily around these parts.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
k townman, most issues arise between Christianity and other faiths most clearly in their differing concepts of God.
For Christians, one significant concept would be the nature of Messiah, the Christ.
Is He a created being ?
Therein lies the rub.
If you believed in the Nicene creed it is not a problem. It was written by the church fathers in 325 and reworded in 381. It was written by the same group of guys who decided which books would comprise the bible.
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
You can also toss in the Apostles Creed. It explains a lot. I would suggest most of the modern mega, nondenominational/babtist/open bible churches do not know these words.
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
he descended into hell;
the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting. Amen
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
k townman, most issues arise between Christianity and other faiths most clearly in their differing concepts of God.
For Christians, one significant concept would be the nature of Messiah, the Christ.
Is He a created being ?
Therein lies the rub.
The majority of Christian sects, including the Mormons, believe that Christ is the literal Son of God. Therefore, Jesus was created by God, the Father, and Mary.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Survivalist86,
"No objection. I met a guy once who smoked pot as part of his religious ritual to Mother Earth. Fine by me.
I am just saying that all that "saved" stuff and fundementalist holy rolling circus stuff has been introduced very recently and is an American phenomonon.
Where do you see that in what I have written ? I do not think you have looked into enthusia very carefully, or ecstacy as a religious phenomena, to make such a claim.
And for those who claim that the "saved by repentance" thing, then prior to 150 years ago, nobody could have been "saved".
No one that I know of around here makes such a claim. Where are you getting that ?
Again..I will stop here as religion is personal, and folks get offended easily around these parts.
That's fine, stop where you will, but your objections seem rather specious without any evidence that they are useful or normative.
I think.
My, didn't you put the FUN in Fundementalist....[:D]
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
Dumb question...what is an "Alter Call"?
I wouldn't call it a dumb question. As said before, the Altar Call is simply an invitation to do one of the things Jesus Christ told us to do. It is Biblical:
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Comments
All you have to do is look at inter city gangs.
They were people just like us that lived mostly at peace together until drugs tore them apart. Now it is brother against brother, neighborhood against neighborhood. They threw the "love thy neighbor" out the door and will kill for the color of a rag.
I believe that America will split and a war will be on. Just a matter of time..
Without trying to be a smart alleck, or a know it all, I can say that from a historical standpoint we are well past our time for a revamping. Almost all societies rarely have lasted longer then 150 years. There are a few exceptions, but they tend to be small neutral, isolated societies with few resources worth taking.
Holy Cross Lutheran as well......
You do services this morning?
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
Holy Cross Lutheran as well......
You do services this morning?
early morning
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
Holy Cross Lutheran as well......
You do services this morning?
early morning
You get some revolution stuff this morning instead of the usual Mothers Day schpeel?
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
Holy Cross Lutheran as well......
You do services this morning?
early morning
You get some revolution stuff this morning instead of the usual Mothers Day schpeel?
got both, but there have been mentions of the change coming to society for a couple months now. Not outright revolution talk, but talk of being prepared, etc
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
Yes, I agree. "IT" is coming.
Ultimately any good Lutheran should ask this question;
WHAT WOULD MARTIN LUTHER DO?
I suspect, he'd say it like it is from the pulpit. If you have a preacher that isn't afraid to do that, you have yourself a good one.
Frankly, I don't think Martin Luther would recognize the church in it's current position.
Oliver North referred to a "Higher Law" than Congress in his testimony. The democrats laughed at that notion.
Yes, I agree. "IT" is coming.
Ultimately any good Lutheran should ask this question;
WHAT WOULD MARTIN LUTHER DO?
I suspect, he'd say it like it is from the pulpit. If you have a preacher that isn't afraid to do that, you have yourself a good one.
Frankly, I don't think Martin Luther would recognize the church in it's current position.
You gotta understand, Luther never wanted to start a sect. He was called The Reformer, because he wanted a few changes in the the Catholic church. I think he would be very comfortable in the old German church I go to. He might be a little embarassed that we sing "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" since he wrote it. I think he would be very glad that we have kept to his teachings, and have preserved the old Catholic tradition before, what he saw, as outside influences had changed the church.
A lot of what Luther tried to change in the Catholic church, has already changed.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
Yet, very few dare to talk about it.
This president will bring blood shed to America's streets.
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Dumb question...what is an "Alter Call"?
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Do you think it might be time to find a new church.?.?...one more in line with your personal convictions.?.?
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Dumb question...what is an "Alter Call"?
It is an offer to see if anyone would like to pray to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior (after describing what that means).
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Do you think it might be time to find a new church.?.?...one more in line with your personal convictions.?.?
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is out there...and is probably the closest to the original Semetic Eccumenical church that exists.
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Do you think it might be time to find a new church.?.?...one more in line with your personal convictions.?.?
I grew up bouncing around from church to church. THis was one of them that my parents attended twice and left twice. This church has NEVER had a preacher leave and still be licensed to preach in Illinois by the denomination. This preacher isn't bad. He provides some stability and maturity which the church needs.
In any case, for various reasons, I ain't leaving. For a church to succeed, sometimes some people need to leave and others need to stay and make a stand. If the time comes, I'll stay and make things uncomfortable but I don't think this guy is bad. Dry, but OK.
He will open the alter in a general way, but he won't make that "alter call" . I think it is more of a courage thing with him. I thin he gets nervous about doing it for whatever reason.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
My pastor doesn't even have the courage to have an alter call on Sunday morning.
Do you think it might be time to find a new church.?.?...one more in line with your personal convictions.?.?
I grew up bouncing around from church to church. THis was one of them that my parents attended twice and left twice. This church has NEVER had a preacher leave and still be licensed to preach in Illinois by the denomination. This preacher isn't bad. He provides some stability and maturity which the church needs.
In any case, for various reasons, I ain't leaving. For a church to succeed, sometimes some people need to leave and others need to stay and make a stand. If the time comes, I'll stay and make things uncomfortable but I don't think this guy is bad. Dry, but OK.
He will open the alter in a general way, but he won't make that "alter call" . I think it is more of a courage thing with him. I thin he gets nervous about doing it for whatever reason.
My current pastor does the very same thing...and I confronted him about it. You hit the nail on the head. He doesn't do very many alter calls, b/c of the fear of rejection over and over...I guess it can be hard on you...especially if you use it as a gauge to measure your success. The thing is, he is a brilliant teacher and pastor of his flock. He also expects his flock to be witnessing and ministering to folks. I have come to understand his reasoning...he admitted that it was a weak point for him. I will continue to pray for him in this area. I would love to see an alter call EVERY Sunday.
At any rate, I can understand where your pastor is coming from.
I would love to see an alter call EVERY Sunday.
Grrrrr.....someone enlighten me please.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
I would love to see an alter call EVERY Sunday.
Grrrrr.....someone enlighten me please.
I already did...please read a few posts above...your question was answered.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by ECC
I would love to see an alter call EVERY Sunday.
Grrrrr.....someone enlighten me please.
I already did...please read a few posts above...your question was answered.
Indeed. I understand. Not at all a Lutheran thing. Some of the stuff introduced into the faith since Wesley and Smith need to be explained at times to me. I know a lot about the original faiths, but little about the modern ones...except Mormons. Had a few of them where I was raised.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
So I suspect your congregation's elders might have a chat with the pastor about his sermon. Even if they personally agree with him, they should be concerned about why that pulpit exists in the first place (this is exactly why Jeremiah Wright is going to have a very uncomfortable visit when he finally meets Almighty God).
I think it was inappropriate, especially to take up the entire sermon. A mention is one thing, but an entire sermon is wrong.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
I am not going to debate apostacy that has crept into the church since Luther. Nor am I going to talk about the heretical teachings of John Wesley, Calvin, or Smith. People just get their feelings hurt.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
No...I am very familiar with their religion. I also personally know many Mormons. I have studied their religion more in depth than most Mormons have.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
I am not going to debate apostacy that has crept into the church since Luther. Nor am I going to talk about the heretical teachings of John Wesley, Calvin, or Smith. People just get their feelings hurt.
I am still a little upset at LCMS that I have attended for changing from the Old Hymnal to the New Blue one [:)]
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
You just did...and sadly, you are mistaken. Start with Romans 10:9....this is the very basis of becoming a Christian...and we are instructed to reach the lost with this message. Good luck![:)]
I am not going to debate apostacy that has crept into the church since Luther. Nor am I going to talk about the heretical teachings of John Wesley, Calvin, or Smith. People just get their feelings hurt.
I am still a little upset at LCMS that I have attended for changing from the Old Hymnal to the New Blue one [:)]
We still use the old one...AND we still sing most of the responsive stuff. It is, however, now in English not German.
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
No...I am very familiar with their religion. I also personally know many Mormons. I have studied their religion more in depth than most Mormons have.
I have lived with a Mormon family and studied them indepth. My biggest issue is with the Masonry symbolism that was the foundation of their faith. Lutherans do not allow anyone in a secret society to take communion, or have their Diest funeral ceremonies in the church or at the graveside.
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
The church I've been going to when able has always taught to keep a little of this and that to the side. To be honest that is one of the major reasons why I'm interested in this church.
Mormon.?.?
Yep.
I would have failed God Almighty if I did not warn you that they are an occult and have no resemblance to true Christianity as outlined and portrayed by the Bible, which I believe is the only real and true Word of God. Most of their own members are not even aware of the inner workings of this church...or some of their very own core beliefs. I am in NO WAY forcing my views upon you. I am merely relaying what I know about Christianity and what I know about Mormonism. I will say this though...most of the Mormons I know are pretty darn good people...unfortunately, that's not enough in the eternal scheme of things (as defined by Christianity and the Word of God).
Disclaimer...everything posted above is fact by definition...there is no need for any comments regarding opinions. I have very carefully considered the wording of what I wrote.
ECC. Did you consider the fact that you are flat dead wrong, about the Mormons?
No...I am very familiar with their religion. I also personally know many Mormons. I have studied their religion more in depth than most Mormons have.
ECC - I do not hesitate to say that I've forgotten more about the LDS Church, than you'll ever know.
If you knew as much about them as I do, you'd be a member of the LDS Church. [;)]
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Altar call.
A call from the pulpit for those seeking salvation to come forward, towards the altar, in the earlier days to the front pews, or mourner's bench, to be counseled by the Elders or Pastor, essentially a public profession and acceptance of Christ.
It's an invitation...nothing more, nothing less. In can happen in your seats with every head bowed and every eye closed as well. Romans 10:9
That's true, it is an invitation, and salvation can and probably does occur anywhere. Lots of folks have gone down front many times , and to no apparent effect, as well.
Altar calls are becoming infrequent, though, even on Sunday, in many places.
I am not surprised, although I have been to funerals where an altar call was given at the end of the service, as well. I think that is a great time. Haven't seen one that I can recall at a marriage, though.
And it is a primarily Protestant activity.
Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs.
The original Christian faiths do not do such things. That is why I asked. It is something that has crept into Christianity since Smith and Wesley. Martin Luther would not approve, nor do I find it biblical...but I am not going to argue against a man's religious beliefs.
"Who am I to judge how a man is saved ?
It's okay with me any way it occurs."
If you've never seen one or know only the brief descriptions posted here, with all due respect, I do not think that you are in a position to make such pronouncements about the primitive Church and what the apostles would have recognized or found expedient in their gatherings. I find it difficult to believe that there could be anything simpler or authentic, but as I have previously stated, I think it is okay anyway God sees fit to call and save a man.
Is there something specific that offends you in an altar call ?
I'm mystified by the objection.
No objection. I met a guy once who smoked pot as part of his religious ritual to Mother Earth. Fine by me.
I am just saying that all that "saved" stuff and fundementalist holy rolling circus stuff has been introduced very recently and is an American phenomonon. And for those who claim that the "saved by repentance" thing, then prior to 150 years ago, nobody could have been "saved". Again..I will stop here as religion is personal, and folks get offended easily around these parts.
k townman, most issues arise between Christianity and other faiths most clearly in their differing concepts of God.
For Christians, one significant concept would be the nature of Messiah, the Christ.
Is He a created being ?
Therein lies the rub.
If you believed in the Nicene creed it is not a problem. It was written by the church fathers in 325 and reworded in 381. It was written by the same group of guys who decided which books would comprise the bible.
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
he descended into hell;
the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting. Amen
k townman, most issues arise between Christianity and other faiths most clearly in their differing concepts of God.
For Christians, one significant concept would be the nature of Messiah, the Christ.
Is He a created being ?
Therein lies the rub.
The majority of Christian sects, including the Mormons, believe that Christ is the literal Son of God. Therefore, Jesus was created by God, the Father, and Mary.
Survivalist86,
"No objection. I met a guy once who smoked pot as part of his religious ritual to Mother Earth. Fine by me.
I am just saying that all that "saved" stuff and fundementalist holy rolling circus stuff has been introduced very recently and is an American phenomonon.
Where do you see that in what I have written ? I do not think you have looked into enthusia very carefully, or ecstacy as a religious phenomena, to make such a claim.
And for those who claim that the "saved by repentance" thing, then prior to 150 years ago, nobody could have been "saved".
No one that I know of around here makes such a claim. Where are you getting that ?
Again..I will stop here as religion is personal, and folks get offended easily around these parts.
That's fine, stop where you will, but your objections seem rather specious without any evidence that they are useful or normative.
I think.
My, didn't you put the FUN in Fundementalist....[:D]
Dumb question...what is an "Alter Call"?
I wouldn't call it a dumb question. As said before, the Altar Call is simply an invitation to do one of the things Jesus Christ told us to do. It is Biblical:
Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.