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1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-15)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ
(Ephesians 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of
Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Ephesians 4:11-15)
5. The true church must claim divine authority(Hebrews 4:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry
(Acts 20:33-34; John 10 11-13)
7. The true church must baptize by immersion (Mathew 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands
(Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals
(John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone
(Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Hebrews1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God
(Hebrews 4:4; Exodus 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Mathew 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead
(1 Corinthians 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:20)
This list was compiled by a group of college students, who were on a quest to find the true church of Jesus Christ. As a result of their studies, many of them joined the LDS Church. True story.
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
According to the writings in the Book Of Mormon, the 13th tribe of Israel came to America and set up a great empire, correct? There are many mentionings of the great battles in the new world involving Chariots, and that the people drank milk mixed with honey..correct?
Horses did not come to the New World until the SPanards introduced them, and there is no archeological evidence, no bones, no graves to show that they were here any earlier.
Bees were introduced by the French. And we all know bees have adapted perfectly to the American continent and have natrualized and spread about the whole New world.
Well, since you asked, no, that's not correct. There is/was no 13th tribe of Israel. According to the writings in the Book of Mormon, the Jaredites came to America. The Jaredites were supposed to be descended from Jared and his brother from the Tower of Babel.
You are correct that the Spaniards were the first to bring horses to America, but the European honeybee was first brought to America from England to Virginia in 1622.
I've never been on a "journey of discovery" and I don't have a degree in Central European History, and I'm not a student of religion, but when I don't have a clue what I'm talking about I usually refrain from flapping my lip.
When you were doing all this research in your small town with various Churches and Temples which included Adventist Church, Zoroastrist services, Coptic services and Coptic/Gnostic services, if you had done a little less talking and a little more listening you might have learned something about Mormons, horses and bees.
Your small town reminds me of the joke about the town which was so small everybody had to take turns being the town drunk. With that many Churches, Temples and Meeting Places in a small town, people must have had to take turns being Christian, Jew and Moslem.
How can that be? The 13th tribe (the Jaredidites as you call them) brought horses and bees. Which is it?
Oh wait. You cannot answer because it is complete BS propaganda. Bet you are one of those that called Mohammad a child molester because one of his wives was 9 years old. Any idea how old some of Joseph Smith's 33 wives were?
Now I took the time and pulled out some of my notes from many mooms ago, and I will show that you faith is not Christian by quoting your own church's "sacred" texts.
" ther is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"...Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim-"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."... Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"...Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
Anyhow, you can educate yourself at this site. Unlike the folks at LDS.org, they actually answer questions and won't send you e-mails accusing you of being predjudiced against their church.
It is kind of funny. You used the same attack method that your answer people did. Accused the person asking the questions of being "a joke". That part of your early indoctrination too? Just curious.
http://www.mrm.org/
Thank you for demonstrating my point so clearly. I have never said or implied that I am a Mormon. I am a Baptist. A Fundamentalist.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I know exactly what fundementalism is, and is not.
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Honey Bee, common name for any of several species of highly social bees known for their honey-hoarding behavior and their use as a domesticated species (see Beekeeping). The European honey bee is important in modern agriculture and in nature, providing pollination for many valuable crops and wild plants. It is native to Asia and the Middle East and was introduced to North America by early European colonists, possibly the French or the Dutch. By the mid-1800s honey bees had become widespread. Today, they are naturalized on every continent except Antarctica. Honey bees can be easily reared, are adaptable to many climates and to laboratory conditions, and have a complex social life. They are among the most studied and best known insects.
quote:
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Much has been written and debated about the origin of Native Americans. Scientific anthropology insists that they must have come over a land bridge during the last ice age and that they are descendants of Asiatic forbears.
Mormons claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribe of Joseph through one of his sons, Manasseh, the 13th tribe of Judah. They base their claim on the Book of Mormon in which certain passages seem to coincide with some aspects of Native American legends.
Perhaps there are other origins. There is evidence for traffic and trade across the Atlantic between West Africa and South America with migrations into what is now Mexico and the southeast United States. Genetic ancestors from Europe are not ruled out. Other esoteric claims of alien spacecraft push credulity to the limit.
Most Native Americans reject these saying that their ancient stories say that they originated on the American continent.
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
k townman, most issues arise between Christianity and other faiths most clearly in their differing concepts of God.
For Christians, one significant concept would be the nature of Messiah, the Christ.
Is He a created being ?
Therein lies the rub.
The majority of Christian sects, including the Mormons, believe that Christ is the literal Son of God. Therefore, Jesus was created by God, the Father, and Mary.
Mormonism is not a Christian sect or denomination. Christianity is defined by the Word of God...the Bible...and the Bible only.
ECC - You do not know as much about the Mormons, as you profess. What is the full and correct name of the Mormon Church?
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints.
The LDS Church is more christian than all others sects dare to be. The LDS Church studies from the King James version of the Bible.
Oh Oh...please send some more missionaries to my house. Last two you sent by started crying about 2 1/2 hours into a religious debate with me.[:D]
I can blow the book of mormon out of the water by using 2 animals. The horse, and the bee. If you are LDS, you know exactly what I am talking about.
I was raised in the LDS Church, and served a mission. Although, I haven't attended any meetings for many years. I'm what they call a jack-mormon. I would like to hear the story of the horse and the bee. That's a concept I've never heard of. I promise I won't cry. [:D]
According to the writings in the Book Of Mormon, the 13th tribe of Israel came to America and set up a great empire, correct? There are many mentionings of the great battles in the new world involving Chariots, and that the people drank milk mixed with honey..correct?
Horses did not come to the New World until the SPanards introduced them, and there is no archeological evidence, no bones, no graves to show that they were here any earlier.
Bees were introduced by the French. And we all know bees have adapted perfectly to the American continent and have natrualized and spread about the whole New world.
The American Indian did not have the wheel. There has never been a case of a society throughout history, who had the wheel, ever losing it.
Is there evidence of advanced civilizations having existed here before the time of the Indians? Yep. Was it Semetic? Nope.
All I have to say to that is this:
Trying to prove the validity of religion, using manmade science, is futile.
I know there is a scripture that refers to conditions in the last days. Part of it says something like, "Men will be ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Maybe for you. But for me, history and specifically the history of the migrations of the European, Asiatic and Middle Eastern tribes supports it. The writings of various other religions, specifically the Zoroastrists (the 3 Magicians of the New testament, were Zoroastrists) not only support Christianity, but in the case of the Magi, Christ fullfilled their prophecies. The reason there are not many left is that most converted after the Magi spread the word in the east of the messiah who fullfilled their prophesies.
Do I worship history? Nope...but I can name specific events in history that were miracles in the purist sense of the word. Without these pivotable acts, the faith would have been a footnote in the annals of history.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Much has been written and debated about the origin of Native Americans. Scientific anthropology insists that they must have come over a land bridge during the last ice age and that they are descendants of Asiatic forbears.
Mormons claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribe of Joseph through one of his sons, Manasseh, the 13th tribe of Judah. They base their claim on the Book of Mormon in which certain passages seem to coincide with some aspects of Native American legends.
Perhaps there are other origins. There is evidence for traffic and trade across the Atlantic between West Africa and South America with migrations into what is now Mexico and the southeast United States. Genetic ancestors from Europe are not ruled out. Other esoteric claims of alien spacecraft push credulity to the limit.
Most Native Americans reject these saying that their ancient stories say that they originated on the American continent.
So I must ask...are you just not educated on the subject, or are you intentionally spreading disinformation?
The Lutheran church believes the lost 13th tribe eventually was dispursed and intermarried with the surrounding groups of people, possibly as far away as India, Russia, and Eastern Europe.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture does not specify three Magi.
The prophecies that led them to Jerusalem in that year were not necessarilty Zoroastrian, but were references rather from the scholarship and influence of Daniel, and his recorded prophecies, according to many scholars.
Being that there were 3 gifts, it is commonly agreed upon by most impartial scholars that there were 3 of them.
The ancient writings of the Zoroastrians document their journey. Again, an extra-bibilical reference that supports the birth of the King of the Jews, and validates the birth of Christianity.
The 1970 Superbird is also not mentioned in the bible. But I know for a fact they exist.
Instead of stating that only the bible holds truth, I feel that yes, the bible does hold the ultimate truth, but many things from other religions and historical documents do nothing but validate the bible as that ultimate truth.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture does not specify three Magi.
The prophecies that led them to Jerusalem in that year were not necessarilty Zoroastrian, but were references rather from the scholarship and influence of Daniel, and his recorded prophecies, according to many scholars.
Many of the writings of Zathura predate much of the written Jewish texts.
My answer? God used Christ to not only save those Jews and Gentiles who would listen, but he also saved the Zoroastrists of the East. That is a multi facited miracle...at least to me.
Israel has recognized the "lost tribe of Judah" as being black Jews from Africa...at least, that is my understanding. They have welcomed them back into their homeland.
This would be a much simpler world if we could each make up our own religions. Each of us would say and do what we truly thought was right. We'd all have some facsimile of the Golden Rule (most religions do), and we'd pray to "God." Whomever He or she is, and wherever we might find him or her or it.
But it doesn't work that way. God Himself designed how this is going to work out, and we each have to figure it out before the clock stops. That's why we have a Bible.
Being "good" is not enough. Knowing God exists is not enough. Satan and his demons all know God exists, but that won't save them either.
Think of this as a huge treasure hunt, with eternal consequences if you blow it. Better get going...you're running out of time!
And no, the Mormon "Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible. Gotta check those details! As they say, The Devil's in the details!!!"[}:)][:D]
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Israel has recognized the "lost tribe of Judah" as being black Jews from Africa...at least, that is my understanding. They have welcomed them back into their homeland.
Actually that is not quite correct. They have recognized the Ethiopian Jews as Jews. According to Rabbinical texts, Solomon and the Queen of Sheba had a son named Menelik who then lived in the land of Ethiopia. Other texts claim that when the Jews were scattered, a bunch of the Judeans went to Ethiopia. In reality it is probably a mixture of both accounts. They were never considered the 13th tribe as far as my research can determine.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture records two types of gifts from the wise men, gold and incense, and then addidtionally identifies the two types of incense. It does not say that each wise man gave only one type of gift, or incense, or that multiple persons did not give all three or any combination thereof. This is not an essential of faith, and it is not wise or reasonable to go where scripture does not travel, I think.
If you have a realiable citation for a quote from Zoroaster leading the wise men to come to Jerusalem that year seeking the birthplace of the King of the Jews, please share it with us and the rest of the world.
Do you have an Avestian translation program? If so I can send you the texts. PM me your e-mail.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture records two types of gifts from the wise men, gold and incense, and then addidtionally identifies the two types of incense. It does not say that each wise man gave only one type of gift, or incense, or that multiple persons did not give all three or any combination thereof. This is not an essential of faith, and it is not wise or reasonable to go where scripture does not travel, I think.
If you have a realiable citation for a quote from Zoroaster leading the wise men to come to Jerusalem that year seeking the birthplace of the King of the Jews, please share it with us and the rest of the world.
Do you have an Avestian translation program? If so I can send you the texts. PM me your e-mail.
I found an online English Translation. It may take me a few days to plow through it. But to me it is pure bliss. Being a scholar in such matters means that I like to read things that would not be of interest to most others.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Much has been written and debated about the origin of Native Americans. Scientific anthropology insists that they must have come over a land bridge during the last ice age and that they are descendants of Asiatic forbears.
Mormons claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribe of Joseph through one of his sons, Manasseh, the 13th tribe of Judah. They base their claim on the Book of Mormon in which certain passages seem to coincide with some aspects of Native American legends.
Perhaps there are other origins. There is evidence for traffic and trade across the Atlantic between West Africa and South America with migrations into what is now Mexico and the southeast United States. Genetic ancestors from Europe are not ruled out. Other esoteric claims of alien spacecraft push credulity to the limit.
Most Native Americans reject these saying that their ancient stories say that they originated on the American continent.
A lot of words which may be of interest to someone, but none of it related to the comment you are replying to.
What I would like to see you address is where you got the authority to say that I said you or anyone else is "doomed".
You aren't likely to address it because I never said it, or anything similar to it.
I would also like to see where you got the idea I was a Mormon.
The more you throw meaningless words around in an attempt to impress me how knowledgeable and intelligent you are the more convinced I become that I am dealing with a blowhard.
By the way, for what it's worth, European honeybees were first introduced to America from England in 1622. Possibly the Dutch and maybe the French brought honeybees around mid century, but there was only one first.
First Reference from
Zad-Sparam, XXI, 1-6; Dinkard IX, xiii, I (this was written around 1200 BC.)
...the virgin Shemig-abu, who, although of the ripe age of fifteen, has never known a man, "walks up to the holy water" (Ibid., VII, ix, 18-20) and becomes pregnant with Hushedar(Messiah)
Another reference...Bear with me, many of these texts are fragmented.
the fifteen-year-old maiden Shapirabu, who "has not before associated with men; nor yet afterwards, when she becomes pregnant . . . walks up to the water" and, through contact with this holy element, conceives Aushedar-Mah, upon whose arrival the sun was to stand still for twenty days; he too was to have conferences with the archangels, return to the earth, and so thoroughly establish the good religion that two thirds of the human race would become Mazda-worshipers.(God)
Bahman Yast, III, 18-21). Aharman will be able to mobilize a vast army which will march upon Iran, the holy nation, where the great and final Armageddon will be fought. The slaughter is to be so great that the rivers of blood will reach the girths of the horses. Soshans smites the hordes of unbelievers and demons, and ushers in the kingdom of righteousness...After this, comes the resurrection, the final judgment, and the renovation of the world, in which complete triumph is to be achieved by Soshans and Ahuramazda (Ahuramazda is thier name for G-d) for the benefit of the faithful. Upon physical death (which is seen as the temporary triumph of evil), the soul will be judged at the Bridge of the Separator as stated above, where the soul, it is believed, will receive its reward or punishment, depending upon the life which it has led in this world, based upon the balance of its thoughts, words and deeds. If found righteous, the soul will ascend to the abode of joy and light, while if wicked, it will descend into the depths of darkness and gloom.
We are told that during the fifty-seven years of the Soshans, all the dead are to be resurrected, righteous and wicked alike; each is roused on the spot where he died; earth and sea surrender their dead, who assume their former bodies. All are gathered before the great judgment seat of the Soshans in the assembly known as Sadvastaran: the wicked, as conspicuous as black sheep among white, are separated from the righteous, and cast into the depths of hell, where frightful punishment is inflicted upon them. As they depart to undergo this torture, they weep so that the tears run down to their legs and they upbraid their righteous brethren and friends who did not teach them the good religion during the earthly life.(Bundahis, XXX, 14)
I will continue after I can do some more research.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture records two types of gifts from the wise men, gold and incense, and then addidtionally identifies the two types of incense. It does not say that each wise man gave only one type of gift, or incense, or that multiple persons did not give all three or any combination thereof. This is not an essential of faith, and it is not wise or reasonable to go where scripture does not travel, I think.
If you have a realiable citation for a quote from Zoroaster leading the wise men to come to Jerusalem that year seeking the birthplace of the King of the Jews, please share it with us and the rest of the world.
Do you have an Avestian translation program? If so I can send you the texts. PM me your e-mail.
I found an online English Translation. It may take me a few days to plow through it. But to me it is pure bliss. Being a scholar in such matters means that I like to read things that would not be of interest to most others.
I would certainly appreciate the link to the online translation, thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am done. I do research to enlighten, you sir, are a dolt.
I appreciate all who had to bear with this little tit for tat. You cannot argue with the closed minded even when you show documented evidence they are wrong.
I'm not surprised that you chose not to address the question:
Where did I say you or anyone else is doomed or anything remotely similar to that? Where did you get the authority to say I said that?
Where did you get the idea I am a Mormon?
It's obvious you are used to making large assumptions and trying to put comments into other's mouths. Your problem is I'm not used to tolerating it.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
First Reference from
Zad-Sparam, XXI, 1-6; Dinkard IX, xiii, I (this was written around 1200 BC.)
...the virgin Shemig-abu, who, although of the ripe age of fifteen, has never known a man, "walks up to the holy water" (Ibid., VII, ix, 18-20) and becomes pregnant with Hushedar(Messiah)
Another reference...Bear with me, many of these texts are fragmented.
the fifteen-year-old maiden Shapirabu, who "has not before associated with men; nor yet afterwards, when she becomes pregnant . . . walks up to the water" and, through contact with this holy element, conceives Aushedar-Mah, upon whose arrival the sun was to stand still for twenty days; he too was to have conferences with the archangels, return to the earth, and so thoroughly establish the good religion that two thirds of the human race would become Mazda-worshipers.(God)
Bahman Yast, III, 18-21). Aharman will be able to mobilize a vast army which will march upon Iran, the holy nation, where the great and final Armageddon will be fought. The slaughter is to be so great that the rivers of blood will reach the girths of the horses. Soshans smites the hordes of unbelievers and demons, and ushers in the kingdom of righteousness...After this, comes the resurrection, the final judgment, and the renovation of the world, in which complete triumph is to be achieved by Soshans and Ahuramazda (Ahuramazda is thier name for G-d) for the benefit of the faithful. Upon physical death (which is seen as the temporary triumph of evil), the soul will be judged at the Bridge of the Separator as stated above, where the soul, it is believed, will receive its reward or punishment, depending upon the life which it has led in this world, based upon the balance of its thoughts, words and deeds. If found righteous, the soul will ascend to the abode of joy and light, while if wicked, it will descend into the depths of darkness and gloom.
We are told that during the fifty-seven years of the Soshans, all the dead are to be resurrected, righteous and wicked alike; each is roused on the spot where he died; earth and sea surrender their dead, who assume their former bodies. All are gathered before the great judgment seat of the Soshans in the assembly known as Sadvastaran: the wicked, as conspicuous as black sheep among white, are separated from the righteous, and cast into the depths of hell, where frightful punishment is inflicted upon them. As they depart to undergo this torture, they weep so that the tears run down to their legs and they upbraid their righteous brethren and friends who did not teach them the good religion during the earthly life.(Bundahis, XXX, 14)
I will continue after I can do some more research.
Umm, that's OK.
I am convinced, now.
Sorry, it is one of those things I am pretty passionate about. I even had an article published a while back about pre-Columbian, European artifacts in America. Just trying to insire some passion about Western Civilization and Forbidden Archeology. I will stop....at least posting here about it.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Well, you're consistent. You make baseless assertions and try to tap dance away. Until now I chalked it up to assumptions, mistakes and ignorance. Your assertions that I hate Mormons constitutes an outright lie.
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. Most LDS folks I have met have an IQ above 90...so I am sure you are not a Mormon. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Well, you're consistent. You make baseless assertions and try to tap dance away. Until now I chalked it up to assumptions, mistakes and ignorance. Your assertions that I hate Mormons constitutes an outright lie.
So now I call you a liar. You sir, are a liar.
I am sure you know a lot about tap dancing eh James? Or is it Jam A?
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. Most LDS folks I have met have an IQ above 90...so I am sure you are not a Mormon. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Aside from a few things you made up and claimed they came from me, the only two "facts" we have disagreed on were the number of the tribes of Israel and when and where honeybees arrived in America.
I am at a loss as to how convince you that there were twelve and only twelve tribes of Israel, but the honeybee matter is a little easier.
Below are a few links with excerpted quotes from the internet. If you'd like to see a few hundred more just enter "honeybee America England 1622" into a Google search:
The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.
http://www.main.org/cahbs/newhist.htm
quote:The European honey bee had been brought to North America from England in 1622, but was not introduced to the west coast until brought to California in the early 1850's. From there bees were taken to Oregon and Canada.
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. Most LDS folks I have met have an IQ above 90...so I am sure you are not a Mormon. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Aside from a few things you made up and claimed they came from me, the only two "facts" we have disagreed on were the number of the tribes of Israel and when and where honeybees arrived in America.
I am at a loss as to how convince you that there were twelve and only twelve tribes of Israel, but the honeybee matter is a little easier.
Below are a few links with excerpted quotes from the internet. If you'd like to see a few hundred more just enter "honeybee America England 1622" into a Google search:
The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.
http://www.main.org/cahbs/newhist.htm
quote:The European honey bee had been brought to North America from England in 1622, but was not introduced to the west coast until brought to California in the early 1850's. From there bees were taken to Oregon and Canada.
I. Hiving Off: Bees and New World Colonialism during the Seventeenth Century
1621 Virginia Company sends bees to Jamestown.
1622 Francis Bacon defines large masses as swarms, and thus the word begins to have negative connotations.
First I will delve into the Lost 13th tribe of Israel...I am assuming you do not have an archeological background so I will do this in rather a simplistic manner. That is not a stab at you, but I can use lots of historical references that would not mean anything to you unless you were either an historical socioligist or an archeologist.
The first reference I would make would be to a book caled The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler.
You can purchase it here, or I can send you my copy if I can find it and you promise to mail it back.
I will kind of give you synopse of the book as I have read it twice. Basically, it is a debunking of the theory that the 13th tribe emigrated out of Israel, and ended up in Easter Europe. In the late 70's when the book was written, there was a fast and furious race to find the lost 13th tribe so as to repatriate them back into Israel, and to thus hasten the return of Messiah.
I do not recommend the book. It is rather long winded, and many of his theories have been debunked by modern DNA mapping. He also wrote this with an Anti-Zionism bent.
However, it is available in paperback at Amazon here
Columbia Encyclopedia: Israel
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Columbia Encyclopedia - PeopleIsrael (#301;z'r?#601;l, #301;z'r?#601;l) [as understood by Hebrews,=he strives with God], according to the book of Genesis, name given to Jacob as eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews, the chosen people of God. In the story, Jacob finds himself struggling with a being who, by the end of the narrative, is sometimes taken to be revealed as God. The story highlights the theme of Jacob's conflict and alienation from people (Isaac, Laban, and Esau) and God. The struggle marks a critical stage in the psychological development of Jacob.
The 12 tribes of Israel were named for 10 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, and Benjamin) and the two sons of Jacob's son Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh); the 13th tribe, Levi (the third of Jacob's sons), was set apart and had no one portion of land of its own. A break in the Hebrew kingdom was precipitated by Rehoboam, a son of Solomon. An independent southern kingdom, consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as well as a portion of the Levites, was called Judah; the northern kingdom, which consisted of the rest of what had been the larger Hebrew nation, was called Israel http://www.answers.com/topic/hebrew-tribe
The 13th tribe of Levi disappeared, mainly because they were landless. The search for the 13th tribe has been ongoing for 200 years.
These people claim that the Spanards brought them over. I checked one of my
In the early part of the 16th century, the Spanish brought over the first honey bee colonies and soon honey bees had escaped into the wild and were buzzing all over North America. In some cases, the honey bees travelled in advance of the European settlers and came in contact with Native American tribes, who dubbed them "white man's flies." By the time the frontier had been settled, late in the 19th century, honey bees were regarded as a natural part of the insect world. http://www.insectlore.com/xlorepedia_stuff/honey_bee.html in North America.
These experst claim that the Dutch introduced them in America
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
You need more?
If by "more" you mean humility:
Yes please.
Really.
Give it a shot. It'll make you a better person.
I cannot speak as an expert on a lot of topics....but on this one? I have a fancy piece of paper that says I can. [:D]
Then try being a trifle less pedantic. It'll help you get your ideas across.
We were having a spurious debate. And, I for one enjoyed it.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
You need more?
If by "more" you mean humility:
Yes please.
Really.
Give it a shot. It'll make you a better person.
I cannot speak as an expert on a lot of topics....but on this one? I have a fancy piece of paper that says I can. [:D]
Then try being a trifle less pedantic. It'll help you get your ideas across.
We were having a spurious debate. And, I for one enjoyed it.
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
You need more?
If by "more" you mean humility:
Yes please.
Really.
Give it a shot. It'll make you a better person.
I cannot speak as an expert on a lot of topics....but on this one? I have a fancy piece of paper that says I can. [:D]
Then try being a trifle less pedantic. It'll help you get your ideas across.
We were having a spurious debate. And, I for one enjoyed it.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Funny how the references seem to skirt the Stormfront when googled and pursued, or other Aryan "resources" of questionable intent, or atheists trying to identify the Jews with Kazars,or British American Israelism, or other identity type references.
That's just what I think, though.
Yeah...I have done lots of extensive studying of the lost 13th tribe. Everyone has a theory, and most are politically based. I have my own theories.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Funny how the references seem to skirt the Stormfront when googled and pursued, or other Aryan "resources" of questionable intent, or atheists trying to identify the Jews with Kazars,or British American Israelism, or other identity type references.
That's just what I think, though.
Yeah...I have done lots of extensive studying of the lost 13th tribe. Everyone has a theory, and most are politically based. I have my own theories.
I guess I do not understand why you are chasing a racist theory.
It is not a racist theory at all. It is the search for the missing 13th tribe of Israel. Some say they are the American Indians (the Mormon theory), some say they were assimulated into the other 12 tribes. Some say they went into North Africa...there are many theories. The Discovery channel did a really interesting DNA search on a marker Gene found amongst the Rabbincal class. They found the markers in many isolated groups, from Japan to the Aboriginal people of Australia, to the Jews of Europe. Why would you say the search for the lost 13th tribe is Racist? Just because a lot of the "White Power" groups have twisted things?
Here is an interesting article from that racist group PBS did on the DNA research.
Survivalist86, Is The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler your "documented evidence" that I'm wrong? Thanks for the offer, but no thanks, I'm not interested in reading anti-Semitic fiction. I won't call it propaganda since I don't think that was the intent, but that's what it's used for. In any event, The Thirteenth Tribe has been totally debunked.
These are the Tribes of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin.
But if you want to believe there are thirteen Tribes of Israel, you go right ahead. I will make no further attempt to dissuade you.
About the bees. I don't care if they came over to Oregon with Columbus on the Mayflower as a FedEx overnight delivery. The point was you stated as a fact that they came over with the French, as though what you state as fact is undisputable. I think the preponderance of evidence is they came from England in 1622. Overwhelming evidence actually.
Now that I have all that out of the way ..
I would like to see you address the following quotes:
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
Then, by your interpretation, Catholic Priests, Lutheran Priests, Orthodox Priests, and any who follow the teachings of these churches are doomed, as well as any person prior to 150 years ago. We are all doomed.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
You pulled these statements out of your *. Now I'd like to see you explain them.
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Survivalist86, Is The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler your "documented evidence" that I'm wrong? Thanks for the offer, but no thanks, I'm not interested in reading anti-Semitic fiction. I won't call it propaganda since I don't think that was the intent, but that's what it's used for. In any event, The Thirteenth Tribe has been totally debunked.
These are the Tribes of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin.
But if you want to believe there are thirteen Tribes of Israel, you go right ahead. I will make no further attempt to dissuade you.
About the bees. I don't care if they came over to Oregon with Columbus on the Mayflower as a FedEx overnight delivery. The point was you stated as a fact that they came over with the French, as though what you state as fact is undisputable. I think the preponderance of evidence is they came from England in 1622. Overwhelming evidence actually.
Now that I have all that out of the way ..
I would like to see you address the following quotes:
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
Then, by your interpretation, Catholic Priests, Lutheran Priests, Orthodox Priests, and any who follow the teachings of these churches are doomed, as well as any person prior to 150 years ago. We are all doomed.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
You pulled these statements out of your *. Now I'd like to see you explain them.
I'll be damned...guess you found out I am part Jewish...I am sure I know who told you that.
Um...you want to keep thinking that there was never the lost tribes of Israel..that is fine.
I keep proving you wrong..you cannot refute it and then accuse me of being, what? Anti-me? Maybe...not sure. I actually thought you could provide a decent argument..albiet a wrong one. Guess not.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I'll be damned...guess you found out I am part Jewish...I am sure I know who told you that.
Um...you want to keep thinking that there was never the lost tribes of Israel..that is fine.
I keep proving you wrong..you cannot refute it and then accuse me of being, what? Anti-me? Maybe...not sure. I actually thought you could provide a decent argument..albiet a wrong one. Guess not.
Shalom!
You really are incredible. Every time I ask you to explain your last outlandish statement, you simply pull another outlandish statement out of your *.
I haven't read every post, but this thread seems to have deteriorated into an argument between two members, so it is locked. Why don't you two email each other?
Comments
1. Christ organized the Church (Ephesians 4:11-15)
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ
(Ephesians 5:23)
3. The true church must have a foundation of
Apostles and Prophets (Ephesians 2:19-20)
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Ephesians 4:11-15)
5. The true church must claim divine authority(Hebrews 4:4-10)
6. The true church must have no paid ministry
(Acts 20:33-34; John 10 11-13)
7. The true church must baptize by immersion (Mathew 3:13-16)
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands
(Acts 8:14-17)
9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)
10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals
(John 17:11; 20:17)
11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone
(Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Hebrews1:1-3)
12. The officers must be called by God
(Hebrews 4:4; Exodus 28:1; 40:13-16)
13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
14. The true church must be a missionary church (Mathew 28:19-20)
15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead
(1 Corinthians 15:16&29)
17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:20)
This list was compiled by a group of college students, who were on a quest to find the true church of Jesus Christ. As a result of their studies, many of them joined the LDS Church. True story.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
According to the writings in the Book Of Mormon, the 13th tribe of Israel came to America and set up a great empire, correct? There are many mentionings of the great battles in the new world involving Chariots, and that the people drank milk mixed with honey..correct?
Horses did not come to the New World until the SPanards introduced them, and there is no archeological evidence, no bones, no graves to show that they were here any earlier.
Bees were introduced by the French. And we all know bees have adapted perfectly to the American continent and have natrualized and spread about the whole New world.
Well, since you asked, no, that's not correct. There is/was no 13th tribe of Israel. According to the writings in the Book of Mormon, the Jaredites came to America. The Jaredites were supposed to be descended from Jared and his brother from the Tower of Babel.
You are correct that the Spaniards were the first to bring horses to America, but the European honeybee was first brought to America from England to Virginia in 1622.
I've never been on a "journey of discovery" and I don't have a degree in Central European History, and I'm not a student of religion, but when I don't have a clue what I'm talking about I usually refrain from flapping my lip.
When you were doing all this research in your small town with various Churches and Temples which included Adventist Church, Zoroastrist services, Coptic services and Coptic/Gnostic services, if you had done a little less talking and a little more listening you might have learned something about Mormons, horses and bees.
Your small town reminds me of the joke about the town which was so small everybody had to take turns being the town drunk. With that many Churches, Temples and Meeting Places in a small town, people must have had to take turns being Christian, Jew and Moslem.
How can that be? The 13th tribe (the Jaredidites as you call them) brought horses and bees. Which is it?
Oh wait. You cannot answer because it is complete BS propaganda. Bet you are one of those that called Mohammad a child molester because one of his wives was 9 years old. Any idea how old some of Joseph Smith's 33 wives were?
Now I took the time and pulled out some of my notes from many mooms ago, and I will show that you faith is not Christian by quoting your own church's "sacred" texts.
" ther is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"...Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim-"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."... Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"...Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
Anyhow, you can educate yourself at this site. Unlike the folks at LDS.org, they actually answer questions and won't send you e-mails accusing you of being predjudiced against their church.
It is kind of funny. You used the same attack method that your answer people did. Accused the person asking the questions of being "a joke". That part of your early indoctrination too? Just curious.
http://www.mrm.org/
Thank you for demonstrating my point so clearly. I have never said or implied that I am a Mormon. I am a Baptist. A Fundamentalist.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I know exactly what fundementalism is, and is not.
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Honey Bee, common name for any of several species of highly social bees known for their honey-hoarding behavior and their use as a domesticated species (see Beekeeping). The European honey bee is important in modern agriculture and in nature, providing pollination for many valuable crops and wild plants. It is native to Asia and the Middle East and was introduced to North America by early European colonists, possibly the French or the Dutch. By the mid-1800s honey bees had become widespread. Today, they are naturalized on every continent except Antarctica. Honey bees can be easily reared, are adaptable to many climates and to laboratory conditions, and have a complex social life. They are among the most studied and best known insects.
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Much has been written and debated about the origin of Native Americans. Scientific anthropology insists that they must have come over a land bridge during the last ice age and that they are descendants of Asiatic forbears.
Mormons claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribe of Joseph through one of his sons, Manasseh, the 13th tribe of Judah. They base their claim on the Book of Mormon in which certain passages seem to coincide with some aspects of Native American legends.
Perhaps there are other origins. There is evidence for traffic and trade across the Atlantic between West Africa and South America with migrations into what is now Mexico and the southeast United States. Genetic ancestors from Europe are not ruled out. Other esoteric claims of alien spacecraft push credulity to the limit.
Most Native Americans reject these saying that their ancient stories say that they originated on the American continent.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by k_townman
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
k townman, most issues arise between Christianity and other faiths most clearly in their differing concepts of God.
For Christians, one significant concept would be the nature of Messiah, the Christ.
Is He a created being ?
Therein lies the rub.
The majority of Christian sects, including the Mormons, believe that Christ is the literal Son of God. Therefore, Jesus was created by God, the Father, and Mary.
Mormonism is not a Christian sect or denomination. Christianity is defined by the Word of God...the Bible...and the Bible only.
ECC - You do not know as much about the Mormons, as you profess. What is the full and correct name of the Mormon Church?
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints.
The LDS Church is more christian than all others sects dare to be. The LDS Church studies from the King James version of the Bible.
Oh Oh...please send some more missionaries to my house. Last two you sent by started crying about 2 1/2 hours into a religious debate with me.[:D]
I can blow the book of mormon out of the water by using 2 animals. The horse, and the bee. If you are LDS, you know exactly what I am talking about.
I was raised in the LDS Church, and served a mission. Although, I haven't attended any meetings for many years. I'm what they call a jack-mormon. I would like to hear the story of the horse and the bee. That's a concept I've never heard of. I promise I won't cry. [:D]
According to the writings in the Book Of Mormon, the 13th tribe of Israel came to America and set up a great empire, correct? There are many mentionings of the great battles in the new world involving Chariots, and that the people drank milk mixed with honey..correct?
Horses did not come to the New World until the SPanards introduced them, and there is no archeological evidence, no bones, no graves to show that they were here any earlier.
Bees were introduced by the French. And we all know bees have adapted perfectly to the American continent and have natrualized and spread about the whole New world.
The American Indian did not have the wheel. There has never been a case of a society throughout history, who had the wheel, ever losing it.
Is there evidence of advanced civilizations having existed here before the time of the Indians? Yep. Was it Semetic? Nope.
All I have to say to that is this:
Trying to prove the validity of religion, using manmade science, is futile.
I know there is a scripture that refers to conditions in the last days. Part of it says something like, "Men will be ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Maybe for you. But for me, history and specifically the history of the migrations of the European, Asiatic and Middle Eastern tribes supports it. The writings of various other religions, specifically the Zoroastrists (the 3 Magicians of the New testament, were Zoroastrists) not only support Christianity, but in the case of the Magi, Christ fullfilled their prophecies. The reason there are not many left is that most converted after the Magi spread the word in the east of the messiah who fullfilled their prophesies.
Do I worship history? Nope...but I can name specific events in history that were miracles in the purist sense of the word. Without these pivotable acts, the faith would have been a footnote in the annals of history.
quote:
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Much has been written and debated about the origin of Native Americans. Scientific anthropology insists that they must have come over a land bridge during the last ice age and that they are descendants of Asiatic forbears.
Mormons claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribe of Joseph through one of his sons, Manasseh, the 13th tribe of Judah. They base their claim on the Book of Mormon in which certain passages seem to coincide with some aspects of Native American legends.
Perhaps there are other origins. There is evidence for traffic and trade across the Atlantic between West Africa and South America with migrations into what is now Mexico and the southeast United States. Genetic ancestors from Europe are not ruled out. Other esoteric claims of alien spacecraft push credulity to the limit.
Most Native Americans reject these saying that their ancient stories say that they originated on the American continent.
So I must ask...are you just not educated on the subject, or are you intentionally spreading disinformation?
The Lutheran church believes the lost 13th tribe eventually was dispursed and intermarried with the surrounding groups of people, possibly as far away as India, Russia, and Eastern Europe.
Scripture does not specify three Magi.
The prophecies that led them to Jerusalem in that year were not necessarilty Zoroastrian, but were references rather from the scholarship and influence of Daniel, and his recorded prophecies, according to many scholars.
Being that there were 3 gifts, it is commonly agreed upon by most impartial scholars that there were 3 of them.
The ancient writings of the Zoroastrians document their journey. Again, an extra-bibilical reference that supports the birth of the King of the Jews, and validates the birth of Christianity.
The 1970 Superbird is also not mentioned in the bible. But I know for a fact they exist.
Instead of stating that only the bible holds truth, I feel that yes, the bible does hold the ultimate truth, but many things from other religions and historical documents do nothing but validate the bible as that ultimate truth.
Scripture does not specify three Magi.
The prophecies that led them to Jerusalem in that year were not necessarilty Zoroastrian, but were references rather from the scholarship and influence of Daniel, and his recorded prophecies, according to many scholars.
Many of the writings of Zathura predate much of the written Jewish texts.
My answer? God used Christ to not only save those Jews and Gentiles who would listen, but he also saved the Zoroastrists of the East. That is a multi facited miracle...at least to me.
But it doesn't work that way. God Himself designed how this is going to work out, and we each have to figure it out before the clock stops. That's why we have a Bible.
Being "good" is not enough. Knowing God exists is not enough. Satan and his demons all know God exists, but that won't save them either.
Think of this as a huge treasure hunt, with eternal consequences if you blow it. Better get going...you're running out of time!
And no, the Mormon "Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible. Gotta check those details! As they say, The Devil's in the details!!!"[}:)][:D]
Israel has recognized the "lost tribe of Judah" as being black Jews from Africa...at least, that is my understanding. They have welcomed them back into their homeland.
Actually that is not quite correct. They have recognized the Ethiopian Jews as Jews. According to Rabbinical texts, Solomon and the Queen of Sheba had a son named Menelik who then lived in the land of Ethiopia. Other texts claim that when the Jews were scattered, a bunch of the Judeans went to Ethiopia. In reality it is probably a mixture of both accounts. They were never considered the 13th tribe as far as my research can determine.
Scripture records two types of gifts from the wise men, gold and incense, and then addidtionally identifies the two types of incense. It does not say that each wise man gave only one type of gift, or incense, or that multiple persons did not give all three or any combination thereof. This is not an essential of faith, and it is not wise or reasonable to go where scripture does not travel, I think.
If you have a realiable citation for a quote from Zoroaster leading the wise men to come to Jerusalem that year seeking the birthplace of the King of the Jews, please share it with us and the rest of the world.
Do you have an Avestian translation program? If so I can send you the texts. PM me your e-mail.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture records two types of gifts from the wise men, gold and incense, and then addidtionally identifies the two types of incense. It does not say that each wise man gave only one type of gift, or incense, or that multiple persons did not give all three or any combination thereof. This is not an essential of faith, and it is not wise or reasonable to go where scripture does not travel, I think.
If you have a realiable citation for a quote from Zoroaster leading the wise men to come to Jerusalem that year seeking the birthplace of the King of the Jews, please share it with us and the rest of the world.
Do you have an Avestian translation program? If so I can send you the texts. PM me your e-mail.
I found an online English Translation. It may take me a few days to plow through it. But to me it is pure bliss. Being a scholar in such matters means that I like to read things that would not be of interest to most others.
quote:
I suspect that you know about as much about Fundamentalists as you have demonstrated you know about the twelve tribes of Israel and honeybees.
Much has been written and debated about the origin of Native Americans. Scientific anthropology insists that they must have come over a land bridge during the last ice age and that they are descendants of Asiatic forbears.
Mormons claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribe of Joseph through one of his sons, Manasseh, the 13th tribe of Judah. They base their claim on the Book of Mormon in which certain passages seem to coincide with some aspects of Native American legends.
Perhaps there are other origins. There is evidence for traffic and trade across the Atlantic between West Africa and South America with migrations into what is now Mexico and the southeast United States. Genetic ancestors from Europe are not ruled out. Other esoteric claims of alien spacecraft push credulity to the limit.
Most Native Americans reject these saying that their ancient stories say that they originated on the American continent.
A lot of words which may be of interest to someone, but none of it related to the comment you are replying to.
What I would like to see you address is where you got the authority to say that I said you or anyone else is "doomed".
You aren't likely to address it because I never said it, or anything similar to it.
I would also like to see where you got the idea I was a Mormon.
The more you throw meaningless words around in an attempt to impress me how knowledgeable and intelligent you are the more convinced I become that I am dealing with a blowhard.
By the way, for what it's worth, European honeybees were first introduced to America from England in 1622. Possibly the Dutch and maybe the French brought honeybees around mid century, but there was only one first.
Zad-Sparam, XXI, 1-6; Dinkard IX, xiii, I (this was written around 1200 BC.)
...the virgin Shemig-abu, who, although of the ripe age of fifteen, has never known a man, "walks up to the holy water" (Ibid., VII, ix, 18-20) and becomes pregnant with Hushedar(Messiah)
Another reference...Bear with me, many of these texts are fragmented.
the fifteen-year-old maiden Shapirabu, who "has not before associated with men; nor yet afterwards, when she becomes pregnant . . . walks up to the water" and, through contact with this holy element, conceives Aushedar-Mah, upon whose arrival the sun was to stand still for twenty days; he too was to have conferences with the archangels, return to the earth, and so thoroughly establish the good religion that two thirds of the human race would become Mazda-worshipers.(God)
Bahman Yast, III, 18-21). Aharman will be able to mobilize a vast army which will march upon Iran, the holy nation, where the great and final Armageddon will be fought. The slaughter is to be so great that the rivers of blood will reach the girths of the horses. Soshans smites the hordes of unbelievers and demons, and ushers in the kingdom of righteousness...After this, comes the resurrection, the final judgment, and the renovation of the world, in which complete triumph is to be achieved by Soshans and Ahuramazda (Ahuramazda is thier name for G-d) for the benefit of the faithful. Upon physical death (which is seen as the temporary triumph of evil), the soul will be judged at the Bridge of the Separator as stated above, where the soul, it is believed, will receive its reward or punishment, depending upon the life which it has led in this world, based upon the balance of its thoughts, words and deeds. If found righteous, the soul will ascend to the abode of joy and light, while if wicked, it will descend into the depths of darkness and gloom.
We are told that during the fifty-seven years of the Soshans, all the dead are to be resurrected, righteous and wicked alike; each is roused on the spot where he died; earth and sea surrender their dead, who assume their former bodies. All are gathered before the great judgment seat of the Soshans in the assembly known as Sadvastaran: the wicked, as conspicuous as black sheep among white, are separated from the righteous, and cast into the depths of hell, where frightful punishment is inflicted upon them. As they depart to undergo this torture, they weep so that the tears run down to their legs and they upbraid their righteous brethren and friends who did not teach them the good religion during the earthly life.(Bundahis, XXX, 14)
I will continue after I can do some more research.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Scripture records two types of gifts from the wise men, gold and incense, and then addidtionally identifies the two types of incense. It does not say that each wise man gave only one type of gift, or incense, or that multiple persons did not give all three or any combination thereof. This is not an essential of faith, and it is not wise or reasonable to go where scripture does not travel, I think.
If you have a realiable citation for a quote from Zoroaster leading the wise men to come to Jerusalem that year seeking the birthplace of the King of the Jews, please share it with us and the rest of the world.
Do you have an Avestian translation program? If so I can send you the texts. PM me your e-mail.
I found an online English Translation. It may take me a few days to plow through it. But to me it is pure bliss. Being a scholar in such matters means that I like to read things that would not be of interest to most others.
I would certainly appreciate the link to the online translation, thanks.
Here are the Pahlavi texts
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe05/index.htm
There are aprox 50 chapters to read
Here are the Pahlavi texts part II
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe18/index.htm
Another 50 chapters
Pahlavi texts part III
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe24/index.htm
About 60 chapters
Pahlavi texts part IV
(Sorry, many are fragmented)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe37/index.htm
60 chapters
Pahlavi part V
Very incomplete
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe47/index.htm
15 chapters
And here is the Yatkar-I-Zariran
http://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/zarir/zarir.htm
Good luck. Should give you a few months of reading.
I am done. I do research to enlighten, you sir, are a dolt.
I appreciate all who had to bear with this little tit for tat. You cannot argue with the closed minded even when you show documented evidence they are wrong.
I'm not surprised that you chose not to address the question:
Where did I say you or anyone else is doomed or anything remotely similar to that? Where did you get the authority to say I said that?
Where did you get the idea I am a Mormon?
It's obvious you are used to making large assumptions and trying to put comments into other's mouths. Your problem is I'm not used to tolerating it.
I don't blame you for "being done".
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
First Reference from
Zad-Sparam, XXI, 1-6; Dinkard IX, xiii, I (this was written around 1200 BC.)
...the virgin Shemig-abu, who, although of the ripe age of fifteen, has never known a man, "walks up to the holy water" (Ibid., VII, ix, 18-20) and becomes pregnant with Hushedar(Messiah)
Another reference...Bear with me, many of these texts are fragmented.
the fifteen-year-old maiden Shapirabu, who "has not before associated with men; nor yet afterwards, when she becomes pregnant . . . walks up to the water" and, through contact with this holy element, conceives Aushedar-Mah, upon whose arrival the sun was to stand still for twenty days; he too was to have conferences with the archangels, return to the earth, and so thoroughly establish the good religion that two thirds of the human race would become Mazda-worshipers.(God)
Bahman Yast, III, 18-21). Aharman will be able to mobilize a vast army which will march upon Iran, the holy nation, where the great and final Armageddon will be fought. The slaughter is to be so great that the rivers of blood will reach the girths of the horses. Soshans smites the hordes of unbelievers and demons, and ushers in the kingdom of righteousness...After this, comes the resurrection, the final judgment, and the renovation of the world, in which complete triumph is to be achieved by Soshans and Ahuramazda (Ahuramazda is thier name for G-d) for the benefit of the faithful. Upon physical death (which is seen as the temporary triumph of evil), the soul will be judged at the Bridge of the Separator as stated above, where the soul, it is believed, will receive its reward or punishment, depending upon the life which it has led in this world, based upon the balance of its thoughts, words and deeds. If found righteous, the soul will ascend to the abode of joy and light, while if wicked, it will descend into the depths of darkness and gloom.
We are told that during the fifty-seven years of the Soshans, all the dead are to be resurrected, righteous and wicked alike; each is roused on the spot where he died; earth and sea surrender their dead, who assume their former bodies. All are gathered before the great judgment seat of the Soshans in the assembly known as Sadvastaran: the wicked, as conspicuous as black sheep among white, are separated from the righteous, and cast into the depths of hell, where frightful punishment is inflicted upon them. As they depart to undergo this torture, they weep so that the tears run down to their legs and they upbraid their righteous brethren and friends who did not teach them the good religion during the earthly life.(Bundahis, XXX, 14)
I will continue after I can do some more research.
Umm, that's OK.
I am convinced, now.
Sorry, it is one of those things I am pretty passionate about. I even had an article published a while back about pre-Columbian, European artifacts in America. Just trying to insire some passion about Western Civilization and Forbidden Archeology. I will stop....at least posting here about it.
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Well, you're consistent. You make baseless assertions and try to tap dance away. Until now I chalked it up to assumptions, mistakes and ignorance. Your assertions that I hate Mormons constitutes an outright lie.
So now I call you a liar. You sir, are a liar.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. Most LDS folks I have met have an IQ above 90...so I am sure you are not a Mormon. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Well, you're consistent. You make baseless assertions and try to tap dance away. Until now I chalked it up to assumptions, mistakes and ignorance. Your assertions that I hate Mormons constitutes an outright lie.
So now I call you a liar. You sir, are a liar.
I am sure you know a lot about tap dancing eh James? Or is it Jam A?
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. Most LDS folks I have met have an IQ above 90...so I am sure you are not a Mormon. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Aside from a few things you made up and claimed they came from me, the only two "facts" we have disagreed on were the number of the tribes of Israel and when and where honeybees arrived in America.
I am at a loss as to how convince you that there were twelve and only twelve tribes of Israel, but the honeybee matter is a little easier.
Below are a few links with excerpted quotes from the internet. If you'd like to see a few hundred more just enter "honeybee America England 1622" into a Google search:
http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey Bees Across America.html
quote:Honey Bees Across America
By Brenda Kellar
The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.
http://www.main.org/cahbs/newhist.htm
quote:The European honey bee had been brought to North America from England in 1622, but was not introduced to the west coast until brought to California in the early 1850's. From there bees were taken to Oregon and Canada.
http://www.kentuckypress.com/horntimeline.cfm
quote:Bees in America: A Beeline
I. Hiving Off: Bees and New World Colonialism during the Seventeenth Century
1621 Virginia Company sends bees to Jamestown.
1622 Francis Bacon defines large masses as swarms, and thus the word begins to have negative connotations.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. Most LDS folks I have met have an IQ above 90...so I am sure you are not a Mormon. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
Aside from a few things you made up and claimed they came from me, the only two "facts" we have disagreed on were the number of the tribes of Israel and when and where honeybees arrived in America.
I am at a loss as to how convince you that there were twelve and only twelve tribes of Israel, but the honeybee matter is a little easier.
Below are a few links with excerpted quotes from the internet. If you'd like to see a few hundred more just enter "honeybee America England 1622" into a Google search:
http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey Bees Across America.html
quote:Honey Bees Across America
By Brenda Kellar
The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.
http://www.main.org/cahbs/newhist.htm
quote:The European honey bee had been brought to North America from England in 1622, but was not introduced to the west coast until brought to California in the early 1850's. From there bees were taken to Oregon and Canada.
http://www.kentuckypress.com/horntimeline.cfm
quote:Bees in America: A Beeline
I. Hiving Off: Bees and New World Colonialism during the Seventeenth Century
1621 Virginia Company sends bees to Jamestown.
1622 Francis Bacon defines large masses as swarms, and thus the word begins to have negative connotations.
First I will delve into the Lost 13th tribe of Israel...I am assuming you do not have an archeological background so I will do this in rather a simplistic manner. That is not a stab at you, but I can use lots of historical references that would not mean anything to you unless you were either an historical socioligist or an archeologist.
The first reference I would make would be to a book caled The Thirteenth Tribe, by Arthur Koestler.
You can purchase it here, or I can send you my copy if I can find it and you promise to mail it back.
I will kind of give you synopse of the book as I have read it twice. Basically, it is a debunking of the theory that the 13th tribe emigrated out of Israel, and ended up in Easter Europe. In the late 70's when the book was written, there was a fast and furious race to find the lost 13th tribe so as to repatriate them back into Israel, and to thus hasten the return of Messiah.
I do not recommend the book. It is rather long winded, and many of his theories have been debunked by modern DNA mapping. He also wrote this with an Anti-Zionism bent.
However, it is available in paperback at Amazon here
http://www.amazon.com/Thirteenth-Tribe-Arthur-Koestler/dp/0394402847/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242173568&sr=1-3
Here is an article claiming the Scots are the missing 13th tribe.
http://www.electricscotland.com/books/paterson/scots_irish.htm
Here is an article claiming that the Khazars are the lost 13th tribe.
http://www.britam.org/Khazarbook.html
Here is one off PBS claiming the lost 13th tribe is scattered throughout all mankind, by using DNA markers they proved it. (BS)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2706israel.html
Columbia Encyclopedia: Israel
Top Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Columbia Encyclopedia - PeopleIsrael (#301;z'r?#601;l, #301;z'r?#601;l) [as understood by Hebrews,=he strives with God], according to the book of Genesis, name given to Jacob as eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews, the chosen people of God. In the story, Jacob finds himself struggling with a being who, by the end of the narrative, is sometimes taken to be revealed as God. The story highlights the theme of Jacob's conflict and alienation from people (Isaac, Laban, and Esau) and God. The struggle marks a critical stage in the psychological development of Jacob.
The 12 tribes of Israel were named for 10 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, and Benjamin) and the two sons of Jacob's son Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh); the 13th tribe, Levi (the third of Jacob's sons), was set apart and had no one portion of land of its own. A break in the Hebrew kingdom was precipitated by Rehoboam, a son of Solomon. An independent southern kingdom, consisting of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as well as a portion of the Levites, was called Judah; the northern kingdom, which consisted of the rest of what had been the larger Hebrew nation, was called Israel
http://www.answers.com/topic/hebrew-tribe
The 13th tribe of Levi disappeared, mainly because they were landless. The search for the 13th tribe has been ongoing for 200 years.
You need more?
In the early part of the 16th century, the Spanish brought over the first honey bee colonies and soon honey bees had escaped into the wild and were buzzing all over North America. In some cases, the honey bees travelled in advance of the European settlers and came in contact with Native American tribes, who dubbed them "white man's flies." By the time the frontier had been settled, late in the 19th century, honey bees were regarded as a natural part of the insect world.
http://www.insectlore.com/xlorepedia_stuff/honey_bee.html in North America.
These experst claim that the Dutch introduced them in America
http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/beebook/sec1/sec1.html
Corkey's Pest Control says it was "Europeans" that introduced them
http://www.corkyspest.com/bees/honeybee.html
These folks claim that the British introduced the Bumble Bee into the new world
http://www.earthlife.net/insects/socbees.html
And I already posted the article that claimed the French did it.
I now know more about the numerous species of Bee's then I want to.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Colonel Plink
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
Funny how the references seem to skirt the Stormfront when googled and pursued, or other Aryan "resources" of questionable intent, or atheists trying to identify the Jews with Kazars,or British American Israelism, or other identity type references.
That's just what I think, though.
Yeah...I have done lots of extensive studying of the lost 13th tribe. Everyone has a theory, and most are politically based. I have my own theories.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
Funny how the references seem to skirt the Stormfront when googled and pursued, or other Aryan "resources" of questionable intent, or atheists trying to identify the Jews with Kazars,or British American Israelism, or other identity type references.
That's just what I think, though.
Yeah...I have done lots of extensive studying of the lost 13th tribe. Everyone has a theory, and most are politically based. I have my own theories.
I guess I do not understand why you are chasing a racist theory.
It is not a racist theory at all. It is the search for the missing 13th tribe of Israel. Some say they are the American Indians (the Mormon theory), some say they were assimulated into the other 12 tribes. Some say they went into North Africa...there are many theories. The Discovery channel did a really interesting DNA search on a marker Gene found amongst the Rabbincal class. They found the markers in many isolated groups, from Japan to the Aboriginal people of Australia, to the Jews of Europe. Why would you say the search for the lost 13th tribe is Racist? Just because a lot of the "White Power" groups have twisted things?
Here is an interesting article from that racist group PBS did on the DNA research.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2706israel.html
These are the Tribes of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin.
But if you want to believe there are thirteen Tribes of Israel, you go right ahead. I will make no further attempt to dissuade you.
About the bees. I don't care if they came over to Oregon with Columbus on the Mayflower as a FedEx overnight delivery. The point was you stated as a fact that they came over with the French, as though what you state as fact is undisputable. I think the preponderance of evidence is they came from England in 1622. Overwhelming evidence actually.
Now that I have all that out of the way ..
I would like to see you address the following quotes:
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
Then, by your interpretation, Catholic Priests, Lutheran Priests, Orthodox Priests, and any who follow the teachings of these churches are doomed, as well as any person prior to 150 years ago. We are all doomed.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
You pulled these statements out of your *. Now I'd like to see you explain them.
Survivalist86, Is The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler your "documented evidence" that I'm wrong? Thanks for the offer, but no thanks, I'm not interested in reading anti-Semitic fiction. I won't call it propaganda since I don't think that was the intent, but that's what it's used for. In any event, The Thirteenth Tribe has been totally debunked.
These are the Tribes of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin.
But if you want to believe there are thirteen Tribes of Israel, you go right ahead. I will make no further attempt to dissuade you.
About the bees. I don't care if they came over to Oregon with Columbus on the Mayflower as a FedEx overnight delivery. The point was you stated as a fact that they came over with the French, as though what you state as fact is undisputable. I think the preponderance of evidence is they came from England in 1622. Overwhelming evidence actually.
Now that I have all that out of the way ..
I would like to see you address the following quotes:
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
Then, by your interpretation, Catholic Priests, Lutheran Priests, Orthodox Priests, and any who follow the teachings of these churches are doomed, as well as any person prior to 150 years ago. We are all doomed.
quote:Originally posted by Survivalist86
I am very sure you are not LDS. Every Mormon I have met can have a coherant conversation, without making up things and presenting them as facts. A hater of Mormons? Yes.
You pulled these statements out of your *. Now I'd like to see you explain them.
I'll be damned...guess you found out I am part Jewish...I am sure I know who told you that.
Um...you want to keep thinking that there was never the lost tribes of Israel..that is fine.
I keep proving you wrong..you cannot refute it and then accuse me of being, what? Anti-me? Maybe...not sure. I actually thought you could provide a decent argument..albiet a wrong one. Guess not.
Shalom!
I'll be damned...guess you found out I am part Jewish...I am sure I know who told you that.
Um...you want to keep thinking that there was never the lost tribes of Israel..that is fine.
I keep proving you wrong..you cannot refute it and then accuse me of being, what? Anti-me? Maybe...not sure. I actually thought you could provide a decent argument..albiet a wrong one. Guess not.
Shalom!
You really are incredible. Every time I ask you to explain your last outlandish statement, you simply pull another outlandish statement out of your *.
Now I ask you to explain all three.