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I have no idea of where you get your information, but it looks to me like you did not get it from the source and you are now stooping to mud-slinging. In the political arena they say, "He who slings mud looses ground!"
You have lost it completely, my friend.
You say, "The NIV was written by Westcott and Hort." The fact are that it was a translation effort done by MANY people using the best Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts available to date. I could give you the whole list, but just look them up for yourself in the front of any NIV Bible!
The NIV translation committee was made up of many people from five different countries and from many different denominations. To say it was "written" by two people and then proceed to bad mouth them ... is laughable to the max! Please, if you insist on criticism, let's at least be honest!
And if you check on the basis of translation of the NASB you will find again an extensive list of very competent translators ... the same with the NRSV ... enough said!
I said that I would say no more, but I could not help myself. You're making it tough on me! Looks like someone must bring some facts back to the table. Did you think that I would let you get away with your balony and trash talk? I guess you did!
As I have said before, thunderbolt, please feel free to use what ever translation you please, and let's encourage others to do the same! I do not believe you are helping the cause of Christ by continuing this. You are simply wrangling about words which even your KJV of the Bible says not to do because it is not helpful to anyone. And with the last posting ... well, I'll leave it at that.
Not to worry ... I'm praying for you, brother! and I am moving on ... to much more important things!
This topic is a prime example of religious intolerance, Christians disagree with Jews and Muslims disagree with Buddhists, all sects think their religion is the one true religion, but,now it seems that some of the Christians cannot agree on what bible is THE bible, do You think Christ has a preference as to what bible is correct? do You think He would want his followers arguing over such picayune a matter as which version/translation is the one "True" bible? or would he have you leading a life commiserate with His teachings of tolerance and love? I would not be worrying about others souls being in jeopardy and quoting scripture at others until MY soul was in the right house. Ever hear of "Judge not,lest Ye be judged"?
I pray to my heavenly father,who is a God the only God,who created man in his not her ,his own image.That someone might read this and be touched. The New King James version is written for man or woman.Some Bibles dont teach the concievement of Christ by the virgin Mary.She concieved from the Holy GHost,but that is to hard for man to believe.If you cant believe that you cant believe in the true Christ who suffered his life for all of us.I believe nothing but the King James versionof the true bible.Do not add nor take away fro these scriptures.All of us being Sportsmen or women,orwe could get in our car and be killed. No one is promised the next minute.And we are all brother and sister.I dont want to see any of my brothers or sisters perish for eternity.Accept Christ and your problems are taken away as Jesus said,nothing compares to Hell Fire.And thanks to the modorater for letting this continue.I pray that someone reading this will except Christ as their Savior,its a high that never go away.
Amen! Rugster, Christ is the only way to Heaven. As the politically correct so often have misled people by saying all roads lead to God. My Bible says straight is the way and narrow and few there be that find it.
Just a test for you King James only people. If you can give the definitions to the following words found only in your Bible you have my blessings to continue reading your "Authorized Version." I will even list where it is located. Now remember, no cheating. A true Christian wouldn't do that would he?
Mark 9:33-34, disputed
2 Cor 4:2, dishonesty
Nahum 3:5, discover
Jer 18:11, devise a device
Judges 1:23, descry
Psalm 22:17, tell
Luke 21:34, surfeiting
Ezekiel 39:11, passengers
Nehemiah 13:26, outlandish
Mark 6:20, observed
Luke 19:13, occupy
1 Cron 18:4, houghed
Acts 28:13, fetched a compass
Job 28:1, fine
John 10:24, doubt
2 Kings 5:23, be content
Joshua 9:5, clouted
Isaiah 57:5, clifts
John 2:3, wanted
Isaiah 3:18, tires
Psalm 139:15, curiously
Acts 17:3, alleging
1 Cor 10:24, wealth
Mark 6:25, by and by
Phil 3:21, vile
Isaiah 43:13, let
Nahum 3:19, bruit
1 Cor 16:15, addicted
Genesis 29:17, tender eyed
Job 17:3, strike hands with
Genesis 37:22, rid
Eph 6:4, nurture
Any of you King James'ers that get them all correct without looking them up I will send you a Strongs King James Concordance free. One catch though, you have to pay the shipping. I do have another question. I am of German ancestry, does that mean I have to read Martin Luther's Gutenburg Bible?
Does God care which Bible you read? Yes. That's why the following verses warn about tampering with God's holy word:
Deuteronomy chapter 4 verse 2: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Proverbs chapter 30 verse 6: "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
Revelation chapter 22 verse 19: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things
which are written in this book."
The NIV is not a better translation. It is a deliberate distortion of God's word. Take Romans chapter 14 verse 10 in the 1611 King James: "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ." Now read Romans chapter 14 verse 12 in the 1611 King James: "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." These two verses taken together lead to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Now see how the NIV distorts that truth. The NIV version says in Romans chapter 24 verse 10: "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgement seat." By changing "judgement seat of Christ" to "judgement seat of God" the NIV denies that Jesus is God. How do you explain deleting references to Jesus, God and Christ in a bible? Why does the NIV deny sound Bible doctrine? NIV editor R. Laird Harris said, "Hell may stand for eternal death." He also said, "It refers to death, not to any punishment." as quoted in the book, The NIV Infection by Dewey Williams. How can you believe that this man can write a better bible, when he obviously doesn't believe what the Bible says?
Jody Commander: Your words would carry more effect if you actually
were Jew, Muslim or Buddhist. Since you don't believe in any of these
religions enough to join them, why recommend them to others? If you were of one of these religions, you didn't have conviction enough to say so.
Andersk: What I should have said was that the NIV was based on an earlier translation by Wescott and Hort. My mistake. I apologise.
As to the credentials of Wescott and Hort, those that practice talking to the dead are necromancers. A fact is a fact. You're not slinging mud if you're telling the truth. As I said in an earlier post, Final Authority by Dr William Grady, is a good reference for this discussion, along with The NIV Infection by Dewey Williams. I can't properly condense either book enough to tell the whole story, so I urge all those interested to read these books. If you read the NIV passages quoted versus the 1611 King James, it is obvious that
there are too many omissions and distortions to be accidents or mere differences in translations. The NIV is a deliberate attack on God's holy word.
thunderbolt-For the sake of clarity would you detail the origins of the Textus Receptus. For those unfamiliar with translations that is the text the King James version is based upon.
Dear Jody Commander,
I would like to thank you, Jody Commander, for your rebuke, which I humbly accept. You are completely correct in your assessment of how this kind of discussion affects others, and I am very, I mean VERY sorry that I have participated in it. Please accept my sincerest and heart felt apology. I assure you, it will not happen again.
ANDERSK, I meant no rebuke or criticism, I merely wished to hold a mirror for some folks that are true and good Christians to see how easy it is for religious zeal and conviction to become a contest of belief. My bible is the one "TRUE" bible, My church is the one "TRUE" church,My religion is the one "TRUE" religion, so many people get caught up in trying to convince others of the superiority of their particular dogma that they forget the fundamentals of the Christian faith. I was born into a Methodist family and have never found any reason to change my affiliation, nor have I ever felt that Methodists were any closer to the heart of God than any other branch of religion,I also do not pound my chest and declare My faith to all within earshot,I believe in My God, and I like to think He believes in Me, and thats all that matters.
Jody Commander: The last time I looked (and it has been a long time)
the Methodists believed in Jesus. His last command, as recorded in
Matthew chapter 28 verse 18-20: "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Now, if you're saved, this applies to you. As a Christian, you're supposed to be a witness for Christ. The way you state your case, you're ok, but the rest of the world can go to hell because it's not your job to tell them about Jesus. Go back and read the above verses until they sink in...they are the Christian's job description.
Andersk: I'll miss you. Keep reading, even if you don't post. I don't want to hurt feelings, but better to hurt feelings than to send a soul to hell. People need to know there's a hell waiting for all those that reject Jesus. In today's feel good, anything goes world, a few hurt feelings might just lead to some conviction, repentance and salvation.
Joe: That's a lot of material to cover and Iit would be difficult to do the topic justice in these few paragraphs. I'm looking into it, God willing, maybe it will happen.
One of the best parts of the Christian religion is that you can be saved instantly. In the 1611 King James, Romans chapter 10 verse 13
says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Your sins, whatever they are, can be forgiven completely
once and for all. 1 John chapter 1 verse 6-10 says: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Isn't this better than
false religions that teach you must work your way to heaven?
Thunderbolt: in this age of instant communication and worldwide dissemination of information ,even to the most remote parts of our planet, do You suppose that there is someone who is not aware of christianity? when Jesus purportedly spoke the words You quote, it took a week to just carry a message to the next town, and desciples were the only way to pass the tenets of a religion, I don't think that today, theres any valid reason to "carry the word" when the word is already there. People are capable of deciding for themselves what to believe or not to believe,and having some extremist exhorter constantly braying about "His" God, will tend to push more people away from the message of faith than it will ever draw. I have expressed my opinions,and thats all they are, Gods message is there and waiting,and all of the "TOOKY-TOOKY" birds of evangelism, quoting scripture are not going to impress God any more than they impress me.
Jody Commander: All over the planet, people are perishing and heading to hell and you don't think Jesus is worth talking about. We're still sending missionaries into countries that kill Christians and forbid teaching others about Christ. China and the Soviet Union
have only handfuls of Christians. Here in the good old USA, it is harder and harder to talk to anyone about Christ. Just hearing the name Jesus in a curse or laughed about in a movie doesn't bring knowledge of God to the public. You apparently don't believe your own Methodist teachings if you don't believe Jesus' words from the 1611 King James. Better check up on whatever you think you've got Jody, because for a "believer", you don't believe much.
Who made Dewey Williams and William Grady "experts" in biblical translation? Look, I read the NIV, I also read (and enjoy) the KJ. I use a NASV for study. So, am I going to hell because I study out of that particular version? According to you, I AM! You are doing more to HARM Christianity than anyone here by pontificating that "the KJ is the ONLY version that is correct." Sorry, sir. That is WRONG. Read whatever version YOU feel led to read and study. I am not going to condemn you for it. But I will get angry if you tell me that I am "wrong" in reading and studying another version.
bhayes: Nice to have you back, sure took you long enough. If you want to know their credentials, read their books. If you ever bothered to compare the NIV to the 1611 King James, the differences should be apparent to a Greek scholar. Please explain why the NIV deletes references to Jesus, God and Lord. Why does the NIV call Satan, "morning star" in Isaiah chapter 14 verse 12 when this is the title given to Jesus Christ? Just another accident?
thunderbolt --
You are welcome to believe as you like as long as your actions break no laws of the land, but I think even you must realize that by relying solely on the King James bible you are placing yourself in a minority, even among Christians. Walk into any religious retail outlet in any mall in America and you will find all kinds of bibles -- study bibles, versions-side-by-side bibles, New Testament only bibles, and the majority of Americans would find even your take on their Christianity "radical" and close-minded.
Nevertheless, that makes no difference to your belief, and I say, knock yourself out. In the Lutheran church (who apparently are all going to Hell) we were raised on the Revised Standard Version. I guess that even by being a perfect Lutheran, I would fail your test. That puts you very close to the "crackpot" line in my book, and I'm a fairly conservative Republican on most matters. Sorry to be blunt.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Offeror: The only thing that counts toward salvation is being saved by Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are reading a watered down, false bible, it just makes it more difficult for you to get the information you need to get saved. There are tons of false bibles for sale, but that doesn't make them right. Christ was never
part of the popular majority in his time on earth nor are His followers today. Thanks for the revelation you are a Lutheran. More importantly are you a saved Christian? If so, you,too,should be
telling people about Christ. My comments have been specific to the NIV, because that's where my study has been done. Tell me, after reading the other posts comparing NIV to 1611 King James, why would you defend such a work? True translation of the 1611 King James to other languages doesn't delete references to Jesus, God and Lord nor
give Jesus title of "morning star" to Satan. Why does the NIV do this?
thunderbolt --
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I do not have the time or inclination to answer your many, many questions.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Offeror: Thanks for giving up. As to teachers appearing when they are needed, read 2 Timothy Chapter 4 verse 1-5: "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
Thunderbolt, you state that "if I took the time to compare the NIV and KJ, the differences would be apparent." Well, bud, they ARE apparent! And TO ME, the NIV is the one I like and choose to use (along with the KJ and NASV)! But calling one "better" than the other is absurd. They are both the Word of God. Use what you want. I will use what I want. I am a Presbyterian minister, so forgive my abruptness, but when you tell me that I am wrong for using the NIV, then you are saying my denomination is wrong because we ENDORSE the NIV, or whatever other version anyone chooses to read. It is kooks like you that give all of us a bad name. If you want the most "correct" version, unpack your greek new testament and hebrew old testament and read away. I do that to! So is that bad because I can translate scripture for myself and not rely on what King James' translators said using (in light of current discoveries) obsolete texts? My Greek text is LOADS different from what old King James said, in LOTS of ways.
thunderbolt-Here is a brief history of the origins of the Textus Receptus. 'The first edition of the Greek New Testament to be published was edited by the Dutch scholar Desiderius Erasmus (1469-1536) of Rotterdam, Holland. The work, published in March 1516, was done somewhat precipitately, with the result that there are countless hundreds of printing errors. To prepare his text Erasmus utilized several Greek manuscripts, not one of which contained the entire New Testament. None of his manuscripts was earlier than the twelth century. For the book of Revelation he had but one manuscript, and it was lacking the final leaf, which contained the last six verses of the book. Therefore Erasmus transalated the Latin Vulgate back into Greek and published that. Thus in the last six verses of Revelation in Erasmus's Greek New Testament, several words and phrases may be found that are attested in no Greek manuscript whatsoever' (Bruce M. Metzger, "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 2nd ed.) Even in a few other palces in the New
Testament, Erasmus introduced material from the Vulgate. For example, in Acts 9:6 the words, "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" (KJV) are found in no Greek manuscripts at all. They are an obvious assimilation to the parallel account in Acts 22:10.
Erasmus's second edition was, like the first, a diglot; that is, it is in two languages, Greek and Erasmus's own rather elegant Latin translation, a translation that differed considerably from the generally accepted Vulgate. This second edition became the basis of Luther's German translation.
Although Erasmus published a fourth and fifth edition, we need say no more about them here. Erasmus's Greek Testament stands in line behind the King James Version; yet it rests upon a half dozen minuscule manuscripts, none of which is earlier that the tenth century. It was later reprinted by verious publishers, the most important of whom was the Parisian Robert Estienne (Latin name, Stephenus). He issued four editions of the Greek Testament. His third (dated 1550) is the first critical edition: Stephanus referred in the margins to the readings from fourteen codices and from the Complutensian Polyglot. His first two editions (dated 1546 and 1549) are largely a compound of the Complutensian Polyglot and Erasmus's editions. In his third edition, however, Stephanus leaned more heavily on Erasmus, especially on Erasmus's fourth and fifth editions. In his fourth edition (1551), Stephanus divided up the text into numbered verses. Theodore Beza, successor of John Calvin and front-rank classical and biblical scholar, published a further nine editions of the Greek New Testament: but the text that he used differs but little from that of Stephanus's fourth edition of 1551. The translators of the King James Version relied largely on Beza's editions of 1588-1589 and 1598.
In 1624, thirteen years after the publication of the KJV, the Elzevir brothers, Bonaventure and Abraham, published a compact Greek New Testament, the text of which was largely that of Beza. In the second edition, published in 1633, there is an advertizing blurb (Metzger's term) that say's, in Latin, "Textum ergo habes, nunc ab omnibus receptum: in quo nihil immutatem aut corruptum damus" ("The text that you have is now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or perverted"). This is the origin of the term 'Textus Receptus' (or TR): the Latin words "textum....receptum" have simply been put into the nominative. The textual basis of the TR is a small number of haphazardly collected and relatively minuscule manuscripts. In about a dozen places its reading is attested by no known Greek manuscript witness.
The TR, or minor modifications of it, became the basis of every European translation until 1881. The dominant manuscripts of the TR were taken from the Byzantine tradition. True, Stephanus had access to D (codex Bezae), the best exemplar of the Western text-type; but it was sufficiently different from his other witnesses that he made little use of it. Thus the Byzantine tradition reigned supreme for more than two centuries.
To keep a correct perspective it is important to note that the TR is not exactly the same as the Byzantine tradition. The Byzantine text-type is found in several thousand witnesses, while the TR did not refer to one hundredth of that evidence. "The King James Version Debate", by D.A. Carson
The student is not yet ready. You will never find satisfacory answers to those questions you keep asking, until you ask them sincerely, with a truly open mind, and not rhetorically, like a Pharisee who believes he already has superior spiritual enlightenment. Until then, you will go in circles, because no human has all the answers, including those fallibles who wrote ALL the flawed translations of the Bible, the first of which was not even codified until SIXTEEN CENTURIES after the events they try to describe, by your own admission. I wish you well on your continued search for more and better knowledge. There is no end to that journey, in this life.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I have read all this discussion info and sin is repeatedly mentioned. When I ask what "sin" is no one seems to know or are willing to put a definition on the word. Interest seems to be more in far fetched pseudo intellectual opinions about what translation is appropriate. Thus has my total experience with organized religion been. Don't answer anything, just continue clouding the water with more nothing.
bprevolver --
That is because there is disagreement on that as well. When you have versions of the Ten Commandments saying both "Thou shalt not kill" and Thou shalt not murder," what agreement on sin can you expect in disorganized religion? The only absolute may be that there are no absolutes, except in certain areas of mathematics and science. But I doubt it. When even God is not an absolute which is universally agreed upon, how can anything else be absolute in the mind of man? There was an Oriental who once postulated that we might all be a butterfly's dream.... At least he had a small enough ego to imagine it was the butterfly, rather than himself, who is dreaming us....
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Now that's what I like, a wide awake audience! Let's start with
bhayes: For a minister, you are very quick to call names those who don't agree with you. This shows a regrettable lack of compassion for a member of the clergy. My question to you is why does the NIV call Satan, "morning star", which is a title for Jesus Christ? Surely a Greek scholar like yourself can give a meaningful explanation to such a simple question, instead of resorting to more name calling. By the way, did anyone get saved in your church this month? Last month?
bprevolver: Sin, in general terms, is an offense against God.
offeror: Don't Lutherans believe in absolutes like God anymore?
joe: You neglected to mention the origins of the Latin Vulgate. Your study also failed to mention the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus origins. Go back a little further.
What has the world come to when one has to ask, "What is sin?" It is a good question, but one that your preacher, pastor or Sunday school teacher should have answered when you were six. Have the pastors so neglected their flocks that church members now bear more resemblance to the world than to the church of Christ? How can sinners come to God, if their church doesn't recognize such a thing as sin, only different strokes for different folks. Many sins separate God from man, but Jesus Christ is the only mediator and savior. Many good moral people: preachers, teachers, doctors and nurses will go to hell because they were never saved by Jesus Christ. Yes, many good upstanding members of society will die and go to hell because they reject Jesus. Many of the dregs of society: druggies,murderers, child molesters will go to heaven because they asked Jesus to save them and He did! Morality does not save you, philosophy does not save you and faith in your good works will send you straight to hell. The only means of salvation is through Jesus Christ, period.
If this is not preached in your church, look for another. One who fears God more than the ridicule of the world.
Thunderbolt...The only thing I have said is that you can use any Bible you wish. You seem to take delight in railroading people who don't hold to your "KJ ONLY" thinking. I am glad you use the KJ. Study it all you want. It is just not for me. And not for everyone else. So live with it and get on with your life. I am glad to see anyone reading a Bible, be it KJ, NIV, Today's English, NASV or any other translation. As long as it speaks to their soul. As far as people being saved at my church, sure. We had 4 young men saved last week and make public professions of faith. Of course, they read the NIV, and weren't baptized by immersion (UH-OH...another can of worms for you to yell about) so who knows what you think of it. I could really care less what you think. And BTW...Isaiah 14:12 never mentions "Morning Star." The exact quote is "O Day Star, Son of Dawn..." If, and this is a big IF, you knew Hebrew, you would know that Day Star is the hebreic term used in worship of the kings of Assyria and Babylon. Isaiah used it as a play on words...i.e. "They will fade away like the morning star (Day Star) when the sun (Son) rises." It fits, since in Hebrew, the word for Lucifer means "Light-Bearer".
Well, Thunderbolt you did the old two step and avoided an answer again. What is it that makes some very arrogant so called "Christians" think they have all the answers because they don't have to give any? I merely put the question of "sin" out to see about reactions. I already have the answers to suit myself and that is all that really concerns me. God did not invent "Right or Wrong". Man did this for his own power and it is different from one culture to the next. Religion has only one function, and that is control over people the same as a government. Conform or be damned, when no one really knows what to conform to. I am 66yrs old, hold three earned graduate degrees, and three more honorary Doctor's degrees in Divinity and Metaphysics. The more I know the less definate everything is. Drop "religion" and concentrate on your personal "spiritual" development. Life really does take on a more enjoyable meaning with this. The most useless emotion there is, is guilt. But religion really loves to play this to its maximum.
Thank you Mr. Hayes, for proving the worth of scholarship. It would be a poor, poor scholar who only studied one book, or one translation of any good book. Do all the translations have accuracy in them. No doubt. Do all the translations still have errors, human errors, in the translations? No doubt. Is a translation ever as perfect or elegant as the text in its original language? Never. So why get our shorts in a wad over translations to begin with? Admittedly, one can find errors in all translations. But the fun of real scholarship is not immediately assuming a new translation, which represents a new effort for increased accuracy, is wrong. The fun is to assume for a moment that the new translation is correct, and then find out why. There is an old saying that "contempt prior to investigation" is "guaranteed to keep a man in everlasting ignorance." In my view, a more accurate translation of anything, however imperfect it still may be, offers the opportunity of deeper insight, not the automatic assumption of error merely because the new text varies from the old translation. What is a translation, but the substitution of words for their nearest relatives in another language? Hardly a recipe for surgical precision.
It was interesting to watch a re-run on cable TV of INHERIT THE WIND while this "conversation among equals" was proceeding apace. "Brady, Brady, Brady Almighty!... let us have a Book of Brady ... we'll slip you in neatly between Numbers and Deuteronomy!" Ah, the arrogance of homo erectus.... What we need more of is humility, not "Holier than Thou" foolishness. Yes, foolishness.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
thunderbolt- I figured with your knowledge of the King James Version you would have taken the quiz I posted. I would have expected you to ace the test. Being you didn't respond I will list the definitions for everyone to view.
Mark 9:33-34, disputed---discused
2 Cor 4:2, dishonesty---shame
Nahum 3:5, discover---uncover
Jer 18:11, devise a device---plan
Judges 1:23, descry---spy out
Psalm 22:17, tell---count
Luke 21:34, surfeiting---dissipation
Ezekiel 39:11, passengers---travelers
Neh 13:26, outlandish---foreign
Mark 6:20, observed---kept
Luke 19:13, occupy---trade
1 Cron 18:4, houghed---hamstrung
Acts 28:13, fetched a compass---turned around
Job 28:1, fine---refine
John 10:24, doubt---be in suspense
2 Kings 5:23, be content---pleased
Joshua 9:5, clouted---patched
Isaiah 57:5, clifts---cleft
John 2:3, wanted---ran out of
Isaiah 3:18, tires---crescents
Psalm 139:15, curiously---intricately
Acts 17:13, alleging---proving
1 Cor 10:24, wealth---welfare
Mark 6:25, by and by---right away
Phil 3:21, vile---lowly
Isaiah 43:13, let---hinder
Nahum 3:19, bruit---news
1 Cor 16:15, addicted---devoted
Genesis 29:17, tender eyed---weak-eyed
Job 17:3, strike hands with---guaranty
Genesis 37:22, rid---rescue
Eph 6:4, nurture---discipline
You all know how I believe if you read my responces...however,here in this part of the country we have the Primitive Baptist sect. I am of the opinion that their handling poisonous snakes during services proves great faith.I also believe it demonstrates fanaticism and foolishness.Are they greater believers than other faiths? Possibly,but are other faiths to be ridiculed? I don't think so...whatever other people find works for them is fine with me.BUT...if any sect advocates intolerance and violence,they are,I feel,an offence to God and will be judged by Him accordingly.Who the heck am I to judge anyone? I am afterall a human and thereby flawed.
Little people talk about people,regular people talk about things,and big people talk about ideas.
bhayes: The reference I made was to the NIV version of Isaiah chapter 14 verse 12 which says "How you have fallen from heaven, O
morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations." Do you mean to say that the closest translation you can do with your great knowledge of Greek
is "morning star" for "son of the morning"? Do all Greek men refer to their sons as "stars"? Keep praying for me, I need all the help I can get. "Light bearer" isn't even close to "morning star". Some great translators, that NIV crew!
joe: The test was rigged. If I passed, you were set to say I cheated. If I failed, you'd can me inept, so I couldn't win. I still say the only test that counts is: Did Jesus Christ save you?
bprevolver: I posted a general definition of sin. If you didn't like it I'm sorry, but I did answer you. How do you explain sin?
Bushy AR: Glad you're back. Have you figured out your God's name yet? I keep picturing your prayer life: "O great whoever you are,bless me if you can. If not, I didn't really thing you were there
anyway."
Despite what the world teaches these days, there is only one path to
heaven and that is through God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. There are no other gods. The way people fight, can you imagine the chaos in the universe if there were countless gods battling each other
for supremacy? The earth would long ago have been destroyed as Odin, Thor, Krishna, Apollo, Zeus and so on fought each other. It might make for a good comic book, but in no way has a reality. There is one God Almighty and Jehovah is his name. He created Adam & Eve and
the garden of Eden. When tempted by the serpent, Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. Adam ate as well. Because of their sin of disobedence, they were cast out of Eden. Their sin nature was passed
to all their descendants (all mankind). Jesus Christ, God's only
begotten Son was sent to die on the cross as the only possible sacrifice to save us from sin. Jesus will save anyone and everyone
that calls on Him to do so, no matter what their sin. Romans chapter
10 verse 13: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Thunderbolt...my God's name is the same as it has been since I was church member...God! Glad you are here too...been some really good posts haven't there. Wonderfully expressed differences of opinions keep me coming back.By the way,I don't think I told you I was brought up in the Presbyterian church using the KJV. My father was a Deacon and my mother ran the Sunday school.Never missed a Sunday at that place for many years. Some of the reason I feel the way I do now is because "Religion" was rammed down my throat for too long.Got so I hated to go...shame.And when I pray I do not ask for anything...I thank God for what I have,not ask for something I do not.
Little people talk about people,regular people talk about things,and big people talk about ideas.
Is there a literal burning hell? A place where unsaved souls burn in torment awaiting their final judgement at the great white throne of Christ? Many don't think so, but what does the 1611 King James Bible
say about hell?
Psalms 9:17 says:"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all
nations that forget God."
Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Luke 16:23-24: "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he
may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
2 Peter 2:4: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement;"
Matthew 5:22: "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the
council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
So then, we know, from God's Holy Word, the 1611 King James Bible, that hell is a place of darkness, torment and fire. There are many,
many references to hell in the 1611 King James. The good news is, you don't have to go there. Pray to Jesus to save you, and He will.
Praise God!
thunderbolt, I am reminded in James 1:19-26, "This you know, my beloved brethern. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. But prove yourself doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless." NASB
Comments
I have no idea of where you get your information, but it looks to me like you did not get it from the source and you are now stooping to mud-slinging. In the political arena they say, "He who slings mud looses ground!"
You have lost it completely, my friend.
You say, "The NIV was written by Westcott and Hort." The fact are that it was a translation effort done by MANY people using the best Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts available to date. I could give you the whole list, but just look them up for yourself in the front of any NIV Bible!
The NIV translation committee was made up of many people from five different countries and from many different denominations. To say it was "written" by two people and then proceed to bad mouth them ... is laughable to the max! Please, if you insist on criticism, let's at least be honest!
And if you check on the basis of translation of the NASB you will find again an extensive list of very competent translators ... the same with the NRSV ... enough said!
I said that I would say no more, but I could not help myself. You're making it tough on me! Looks like someone must bring some facts back to the table. Did you think that I would let you get away with your balony and trash talk? I guess you did!
As I have said before, thunderbolt, please feel free to use what ever translation you please, and let's encourage others to do the same! I do not believe you are helping the cause of Christ by continuing this. You are simply wrangling about words which even your KJV of the Bible says not to do because it is not helpful to anyone. And with the last posting ... well, I'll leave it at that.
Not to worry ... I'm praying for you, brother! and I am moving on ... to much more important things!
Ken
Rugster
Mark 9:33-34, disputed
2 Cor 4:2, dishonesty
Nahum 3:5, discover
Jer 18:11, devise a device
Judges 1:23, descry
Psalm 22:17, tell
Luke 21:34, surfeiting
Ezekiel 39:11, passengers
Nehemiah 13:26, outlandish
Mark 6:20, observed
Luke 19:13, occupy
1 Cron 18:4, houghed
Acts 28:13, fetched a compass
Job 28:1, fine
John 10:24, doubt
2 Kings 5:23, be content
Joshua 9:5, clouted
Isaiah 57:5, clifts
John 2:3, wanted
Isaiah 3:18, tires
Psalm 139:15, curiously
Acts 17:3, alleging
1 Cor 10:24, wealth
Mark 6:25, by and by
Phil 3:21, vile
Isaiah 43:13, let
Nahum 3:19, bruit
1 Cor 16:15, addicted
Genesis 29:17, tender eyed
Job 17:3, strike hands with
Genesis 37:22, rid
Eph 6:4, nurture
Any of you King James'ers that get them all correct without looking them up I will send you a Strongs King James Concordance free. One catch though, you have to pay the shipping. I do have another question. I am of German ancestry, does that mean I have to read Martin Luther's Gutenburg Bible?
Deuteronomy chapter 4 verse 2: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
Proverbs chapter 30 verse 6: "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
Revelation chapter 22 verse 19: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things
which are written in this book."
The NIV is not a better translation. It is a deliberate distortion of God's word. Take Romans chapter 14 verse 10 in the 1611 King James: "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ." Now read Romans chapter 14 verse 12 in the 1611 King James: "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." These two verses taken together lead to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Now see how the NIV distorts that truth. The NIV version says in Romans chapter 24 verse 10: "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgement seat." By changing "judgement seat of Christ" to "judgement seat of God" the NIV denies that Jesus is God. How do you explain deleting references to Jesus, God and Christ in a bible? Why does the NIV deny sound Bible doctrine? NIV editor R. Laird Harris said, "Hell may stand for eternal death." He also said, "It refers to death, not to any punishment." as quoted in the book, The NIV Infection by Dewey Williams. How can you believe that this man can write a better bible, when he obviously doesn't believe what the Bible says?
If you pass that one, nothing else matters.
were Jew, Muslim or Buddhist. Since you don't believe in any of these
religions enough to join them, why recommend them to others? If you were of one of these religions, you didn't have conviction enough to say so.
As to the credentials of Wescott and Hort, those that practice talking to the dead are necromancers. A fact is a fact. You're not slinging mud if you're telling the truth. As I said in an earlier post, Final Authority by Dr William Grady, is a good reference for this discussion, along with The NIV Infection by Dewey Williams. I can't properly condense either book enough to tell the whole story, so I urge all those interested to read these books. If you read the NIV passages quoted versus the 1611 King James, it is obvious that
there are too many omissions and distortions to be accidents or mere differences in translations. The NIV is a deliberate attack on God's holy word.
I would like to thank you, Jody Commander, for your rebuke, which I humbly accept. You are completely correct in your assessment of how this kind of discussion affects others, and I am very, I mean VERY sorry that I have participated in it. Please accept my sincerest and heart felt apology. I assure you, it will not happen again.
God's blessings to all!
Ken
the Methodists believed in Jesus. His last command, as recorded in
Matthew chapter 28 verse 18-20: "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Now, if you're saved, this applies to you. As a Christian, you're supposed to be a witness for Christ. The way you state your case, you're ok, but the rest of the world can go to hell because it's not your job to tell them about Jesus. Go back and read the above verses until they sink in...they are the Christian's job description.
Andersk: I'll miss you. Keep reading, even if you don't post. I don't want to hurt feelings, but better to hurt feelings than to send a soul to hell. People need to know there's a hell waiting for all those that reject Jesus. In today's feel good, anything goes world, a few hurt feelings might just lead to some conviction, repentance and salvation.
says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Your sins, whatever they are, can be forgiven completely
once and for all. 1 John chapter 1 verse 6-10 says: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Isn't this better than
false religions that teach you must work your way to heaven?
have only handfuls of Christians. Here in the good old USA, it is harder and harder to talk to anyone about Christ. Just hearing the name Jesus in a curse or laughed about in a movie doesn't bring knowledge of God to the public. You apparently don't believe your own Methodist teachings if you don't believe Jesus' words from the 1611 King James. Better check up on whatever you think you've got Jody, because for a "believer", you don't believe much.
You are welcome to believe as you like as long as your actions break no laws of the land, but I think even you must realize that by relying solely on the King James bible you are placing yourself in a minority, even among Christians. Walk into any religious retail outlet in any mall in America and you will find all kinds of bibles -- study bibles, versions-side-by-side bibles, New Testament only bibles, and the majority of Americans would find even your take on their Christianity "radical" and close-minded.
Nevertheless, that makes no difference to your belief, and I say, knock yourself out. In the Lutheran church (who apparently are all going to Hell) we were raised on the Revised Standard Version. I guess that even by being a perfect Lutheran, I would fail your test. That puts you very close to the "crackpot" line in my book, and I'm a fairly conservative Republican on most matters. Sorry to be blunt.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
part of the popular majority in his time on earth nor are His followers today. Thanks for the revelation you are a Lutheran. More importantly are you a saved Christian? If so, you,too,should be
telling people about Christ. My comments have been specific to the NIV, because that's where my study has been done. Tell me, after reading the other posts comparing NIV to 1611 King James, why would you defend such a work? True translation of the 1611 King James to other languages doesn't delete references to Jesus, God and Lord nor
give Jesus title of "morning star" to Satan. Why does the NIV do this?
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I do not have the time or inclination to answer your many, many questions.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Testament, Erasmus introduced material from the Vulgate. For example, in Acts 9:6 the words, "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" (KJV) are found in no Greek manuscripts at all. They are an obvious assimilation to the parallel account in Acts 22:10.
Erasmus's second edition was, like the first, a diglot; that is, it is in two languages, Greek and Erasmus's own rather elegant Latin translation, a translation that differed considerably from the generally accepted Vulgate. This second edition became the basis of Luther's German translation.
Although Erasmus published a fourth and fifth edition, we need say no more about them here. Erasmus's Greek Testament stands in line behind the King James Version; yet it rests upon a half dozen minuscule manuscripts, none of which is earlier that the tenth century. It was later reprinted by verious publishers, the most important of whom was the Parisian Robert Estienne (Latin name, Stephenus). He issued four editions of the Greek Testament. His third (dated 1550) is the first critical edition: Stephanus referred in the margins to the readings from fourteen codices and from the Complutensian Polyglot. His first two editions (dated 1546 and 1549) are largely a compound of the Complutensian Polyglot and Erasmus's editions. In his third edition, however, Stephanus leaned more heavily on Erasmus, especially on Erasmus's fourth and fifth editions. In his fourth edition (1551), Stephanus divided up the text into numbered verses. Theodore Beza, successor of John Calvin and front-rank classical and biblical scholar, published a further nine editions of the Greek New Testament: but the text that he used differs but little from that of Stephanus's fourth edition of 1551. The translators of the King James Version relied largely on Beza's editions of 1588-1589 and 1598.
In 1624, thirteen years after the publication of the KJV, the Elzevir brothers, Bonaventure and Abraham, published a compact Greek New Testament, the text of which was largely that of Beza. In the second edition, published in 1633, there is an advertizing blurb (Metzger's term) that say's, in Latin, "Textum ergo habes, nunc ab omnibus receptum: in quo nihil immutatem aut corruptum damus" ("The text that you have is now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or perverted"). This is the origin of the term 'Textus Receptus' (or TR): the Latin words "textum....receptum" have simply been put into the nominative. The textual basis of the TR is a small number of haphazardly collected and relatively minuscule manuscripts. In about a dozen places its reading is attested by no known Greek manuscript witness.
The TR, or minor modifications of it, became the basis of every European translation until 1881. The dominant manuscripts of the TR were taken from the Byzantine tradition. True, Stephanus had access to D (codex Bezae), the best exemplar of the Western text-type; but it was sufficiently different from his other witnesses that he made little use of it. Thus the Byzantine tradition reigned supreme for more than two centuries.
To keep a correct perspective it is important to note that the TR is not exactly the same as the Byzantine tradition. The Byzantine text-type is found in several thousand witnesses, while the TR did not refer to one hundredth of that evidence. "The King James Version Debate", by D.A. Carson
The student is not yet ready. You will never find satisfacory answers to those questions you keep asking, until you ask them sincerely, with a truly open mind, and not rhetorically, like a Pharisee who believes he already has superior spiritual enlightenment. Until then, you will go in circles, because no human has all the answers, including those fallibles who wrote ALL the flawed translations of the Bible, the first of which was not even codified until SIXTEEN CENTURIES after the events they try to describe, by your own admission. I wish you well on your continued search for more and better knowledge. There is no end to that journey, in this life.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
That is because there is disagreement on that as well. When you have versions of the Ten Commandments saying both "Thou shalt not kill" and Thou shalt not murder," what agreement on sin can you expect in disorganized religion? The only absolute may be that there are no absolutes, except in certain areas of mathematics and science. But I doubt it. When even God is not an absolute which is universally agreed upon, how can anything else be absolute in the mind of man? There was an Oriental who once postulated that we might all be a butterfly's dream.... At least he had a small enough ego to imagine it was the butterfly, rather than himself, who is dreaming us....
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
bhayes: For a minister, you are very quick to call names those who don't agree with you. This shows a regrettable lack of compassion for a member of the clergy. My question to you is why does the NIV call Satan, "morning star", which is a title for Jesus Christ? Surely a Greek scholar like yourself can give a meaningful explanation to such a simple question, instead of resorting to more name calling. By the way, did anyone get saved in your church this month? Last month?
bprevolver: Sin, in general terms, is an offense against God.
offeror: Don't Lutherans believe in absolutes like God anymore?
joe: You neglected to mention the origins of the Latin Vulgate. Your study also failed to mention the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus origins. Go back a little further.
What has the world come to when one has to ask, "What is sin?" It is a good question, but one that your preacher, pastor or Sunday school teacher should have answered when you were six. Have the pastors so neglected their flocks that church members now bear more resemblance to the world than to the church of Christ? How can sinners come to God, if their church doesn't recognize such a thing as sin, only different strokes for different folks. Many sins separate God from man, but Jesus Christ is the only mediator and savior. Many good moral people: preachers, teachers, doctors and nurses will go to hell because they were never saved by Jesus Christ. Yes, many good upstanding members of society will die and go to hell because they reject Jesus. Many of the dregs of society: druggies,murderers, child molesters will go to heaven because they asked Jesus to save them and He did! Morality does not save you, philosophy does not save you and faith in your good works will send you straight to hell. The only means of salvation is through Jesus Christ, period.
If this is not preached in your church, look for another. One who fears God more than the ridicule of the world.
It was interesting to watch a re-run on cable TV of INHERIT THE WIND while this "conversation among equals" was proceeding apace. "Brady, Brady, Brady Almighty!... let us have a Book of Brady ... we'll slip you in neatly between Numbers and Deuteronomy!" Ah, the arrogance of homo erectus.... What we need more of is humility, not "Holier than Thou" foolishness. Yes, foolishness.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Mark 9:33-34, disputed---discused
2 Cor 4:2, dishonesty---shame
Nahum 3:5, discover---uncover
Jer 18:11, devise a device---plan
Judges 1:23, descry---spy out
Psalm 22:17, tell---count
Luke 21:34, surfeiting---dissipation
Ezekiel 39:11, passengers---travelers
Neh 13:26, outlandish---foreign
Mark 6:20, observed---kept
Luke 19:13, occupy---trade
1 Cron 18:4, houghed---hamstrung
Acts 28:13, fetched a compass---turned around
Job 28:1, fine---refine
John 10:24, doubt---be in suspense
2 Kings 5:23, be content---pleased
Joshua 9:5, clouted---patched
Isaiah 57:5, clifts---cleft
John 2:3, wanted---ran out of
Isaiah 3:18, tires---crescents
Psalm 139:15, curiously---intricately
Acts 17:13, alleging---proving
1 Cor 10:24, wealth---welfare
Mark 6:25, by and by---right away
Phil 3:21, vile---lowly
Isaiah 43:13, let---hinder
Nahum 3:19, bruit---news
1 Cor 16:15, addicted---devoted
Genesis 29:17, tender eyed---weak-eyed
Job 17:3, strike hands with---guaranty
Genesis 37:22, rid---rescue
Eph 6:4, nurture---discipline
Little people talk about people,regular people talk about things,and big people talk about ideas.
morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations." Do you mean to say that the closest translation you can do with your great knowledge of Greek
is "morning star" for "son of the morning"? Do all Greek men refer to their sons as "stars"? Keep praying for me, I need all the help I can get. "Light bearer" isn't even close to "morning star". Some great translators, that NIV crew!
joe: The test was rigged. If I passed, you were set to say I cheated. If I failed, you'd can me inept, so I couldn't win. I still say the only test that counts is: Did Jesus Christ save you?
bprevolver: I posted a general definition of sin. If you didn't like it I'm sorry, but I did answer you. How do you explain sin?
Bushy AR: Glad you're back. Have you figured out your God's name yet? I keep picturing your prayer life: "O great whoever you are,bless me if you can. If not, I didn't really thing you were there
anyway."
Despite what the world teaches these days, there is only one path to
heaven and that is through God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. There are no other gods. The way people fight, can you imagine the chaos in the universe if there were countless gods battling each other
for supremacy? The earth would long ago have been destroyed as Odin, Thor, Krishna, Apollo, Zeus and so on fought each other. It might make for a good comic book, but in no way has a reality. There is one God Almighty and Jehovah is his name. He created Adam & Eve and
the garden of Eden. When tempted by the serpent, Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. Adam ate as well. Because of their sin of disobedence, they were cast out of Eden. Their sin nature was passed
to all their descendants (all mankind). Jesus Christ, God's only
begotten Son was sent to die on the cross as the only possible sacrifice to save us from sin. Jesus will save anyone and everyone
that calls on Him to do so, no matter what their sin. Romans chapter
10 verse 13: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Little people talk about people,regular people talk about things,and big people talk about ideas.
Edited by - Bushy AR on 06/28/2002 23:55:11
say about hell?
Psalms 9:17 says:"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all
nations that forget God."
Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Luke 16:23-24: "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he
may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
2 Peter 2:4: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement;"
Matthew 5:22: "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the
council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
So then, we know, from God's Holy Word, the 1611 King James Bible, that hell is a place of darkness, torment and fire. There are many,
many references to hell in the 1611 King James. The good news is, you don't have to go there. Pray to Jesus to save you, and He will.
Praise God!