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However...you missed the part where he said he would give them to:
quote:". I might even start GIVING guns away, so long as I knew the people I was giving them to to have the right mind-set, of course.
So far...all's I have heard you gripe about is the loss of your business...carefully couched in terms of "You gun-owners won't be able to buy guns" rhetoric.....
Carefully study the post from Blazerdog..perhaps...(but I doubt it)...you may learn something.
The responses you got over in General about the shot gun OUGHT be an education for you. Guns for most people are a tool. They care little about their tools' heritage..nor the vary real background of just exactly WHY they enjoy the vestiges of freedom in this country...guns in the hands of brave men.
I have an understanding of how economics work....and if the stores that supply the gun industry with their customers goes away???? Guess what....the guns will go with them. There is no other way of looking at it. Some may think the manufacturers will start to sell to the public....NO...that is NOT ging to happen.
Some people have this crazy view of the future where the people who "fight for true freedom" gather up and have some type of battle....99% would agree that is pure looney. I can just see some kind of deliverance/waco made for t.v. movie playing out in a few of our subscribers minds.
I would prefer we just hold on to what little bit we have got....rather than hole up in the woods with all our comrades, drinking powdered milk and other rations provided by our chosen leader while surrounded by a few officers of each agency and t.v. cameras.
What person wouldn't want to defend their business???? Especially if it were THE VERY FRONT LINE OF WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DEFEND.
quote:Originally posted by AIMSML_MSSML
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Well written, indeed. It would work work. The exact process that would bring the American people back to the Constitution..all without even realizing it.
I believe that the Elites will prevent it..
I believe that you are right that the elites will ATTEMPT to prevent it.
After all, commonsense dictates such a probability.
However, the concrete proof that that attempt is doomed to failure is the last 18 years of CCW history in the good old U.S.A.: CCW, PRO-CCW legislation, and ever-increasing sales of legally purchased handguns condtradicts your well-founded pessimism.
In the last 18 years the unimaginable has happened: a HUGE proportion of the population has gone PRO-2nd-AMENDMENT.
The NRA, and every other PRO-2nd-AMENDMENT organization out there, should be acting on that fact by promoting with all their might the cause for CCW where it is most hated (LOS ANGELES, NEW YORK, D.C.).
Right now, the NRA seems to be resting on its laurels.
BIG MISTAKE.
WE NOW HAVE THE ADVANTAGE AND SHOULD BE GOING ON THE OFFENSIVE!!!
If the NRA would help a SHALL-ISSUE Sheriff get elected in Los Angeles County in June of 2006, that would send PRO-2nd-Amendment shock waves throughout the culture.
Our culture, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is shaped by, or reacts against the shaping of, one force above all: HOLLYWOOD, which is located in LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
Now, the greedy anti-gun villains who control HOLLYWOOD are not invincible.
Their greatest strength, OVERWHELMING GREED, is also their GREATEST WEAKNESS.
If the greedy anti-gun villains who control HOLLYWOOD see the cultural climate change, they will respond accordingly.
THEY WILL MAKE PRO-2ND AMENDMENT MOVIES AND T.V. SHOWS.
Hollywood knows that its current virulent anti-white, anti-rural, anti-"redneck" bias is being approached by a wave of PRO-2nd-Amendment feeling, a wave that threatens to swamp HOLLYWOOD--which is why the latest "hit" sit-coms (NBC's "My name is Earl") and movies ("Brokeback Mtn." by Focus Features, headquarters located at Universal City Studios, which is owned by NBC) are BLATANT attempts to humiliate, besmirch, and discredit the kind of person usually thought of by the mainstream public as pro-gun (i.e., "rednecks" and "cowboys").
We are all familiar with the concept of the battle that turns the tide in a war.
Usually, there are a succession of such battles (not merely one), that create a momentum that carries combatants to victory.
Right now the PRO-2ND AMENDMENT people have that momentum but don't seem to realize that fact.
They also don't seem to realize where to focus the great bulk of their lobbying influence next: THE 2006 ELECTION CAMPAIGN FOR THE NEXT SHERIFF OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
Why?
Our Sheriff is the sole controller of who issues CCWs in this county of 4,084 square miles (over 10 million people).
Defeat him with a PRO-CCW, SHALL-ISSUE Sheriff, and I guarantee you that there will be tidal wave of applicants for CCW in LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
There is more pent-up demand (AND NEED) here than you all can possibly imagine.
We've got the anti-gun crowd on the run but does anyone realize it?
Why do you think the BATF is coming on so strong?
The citizens are arming themselves in ever greater numbers.
BATF can't stop that.
The only thing it can do is close the stores.
THAT'S WHY BATF is getting so fanatical.
We need to take a more sophisticated approach.
We need to learn which Congressional and Senate committees have influence over BATF and PUT PRESSURE ON THOSE LEGISLATORS.
Hell, we can do that for free (virtually).
We just all need to regularly send loud letters, faxes and e-mails voicing complaint--and promise to withhold support in elections if our needs are not acknowledged.
At that national level, we need to pressure legislators to curb the BATF.
At the local level:
THE 2006 ELECTION CAMPAIGN FOR THE NEXT SHERIFF OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY IS THE NEXT GREAT BATTLEGROUND.
[B)]
L.A. influences the rest of California.
California influences the rest of the country.
There's an old saying that has proven correct in many crucial battles of the culture wars over the decades:
"As California goes, so goes the country."
Every 2nd Amendment supporter should have one eye on his own state and ONE UNBLINKING EYE ON CALIFORNIA.
[:(!]
Maybe it's just me, but I DON'T consider the fact that the NRA is about the only gun rights organization to have filed a lawsuit in an attempt to stop the San Francisco handgun ban, and indeed has temporarily stopped said ban, to be "resting on their laurals".
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct. Otherwise it it "you" who is "resting on your laurals" in being over-eager to act like you know what you are talking about by not taking the time to get your facts straight.
And BTW, why haven't more pro-gun people on this forum already pointed out this careless mistake? Is it because so many gun owners are always ready to bash the NRA but rarely ready to defend it?
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I have an understanding of how economics work....and if the stores that supply the gun industry with their customers goes away???? Guess what....the guns will go with them. There is no other way of looking at it. Some may think the manufacturers will start to sell to the public....NO...that is NOT ging to happen.
Some people have this crazy view of the future where the people who "fight for true freedom" gather up and have some type of battle....99% would agree that is pure looney. I can just see some kind of deliverance/waco made for t.v. movie playing out in a few of our subscribers minds.
I would prefer we just hold on to what little bit we have got....rather than hole up in the woods with all our comrades, drinking powdered milk and other rations provided by our chosen leader while surrounded by a few officers of each agency and t.v. cameras.
What person wouldn't want to defend their business???? Especially if it were THE VERY FRONT LINE OF WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DEFEND.
LF, because of your comments in red above, you at this moment may be the smartest and most aware, realistic poster on this forum.
The great majority of gun owners won't even spend a little, money and effort helping in the gun rights political battles. If they would, we wouldn't have these gun rights problem. In view of this lazy, lack-of-action, it is laughable to listen to these people beat their chest and claim the government better not come and get their guns or the government will regret it. Or make the heroic claim that the gun owner will gladly go out in a bloody, blaze of glory in a battle with the government at their front door of their home with their family cowering in the bedroom.
It is so laughable to hear such big talk from these guns owner, owners who presently refuse to take any action will, when the SHTF, take major action .
In regards to anyone believeing you are only selfishly wanting to protect your business, I respect you for being on the front line of the gunrights battle, suffering for it, and making an effort to fight back. Your resistance is far more action than most other gun owners are willing to offer.
And besides, as long as a person's reason for fighting back are responsible and honest, I don't really care WHAT those reasons are. They are still reasons that have put the two of us in the same trench on the same side in the gun rights war.
There you see the opposing forces within the anti-gun control movement.
the TRs/Locust Forks...vs those unwilling to embrace encroaching tyranny.
The sweet voice of reason seems firmly to be on their side.
History is on OUR side.
The slings and arrows of those supporting 'limited' gun control no longer shock me..as a few years ago it would.... and did.
My mistake fow many years was assuming that people would understand that, unlike many things...gun control is EVIL vs GOOD..there IS no grey area contained within that subject.
Therefore..those actively promoting gun control want the worst for you and yours. Those supporting gun control are, for lack of a better word...brain-washed.
Some can be re-educated into reality..some can't.
All the picture of women and children herded into ditches and shot have absolutely no effect on those willfully self-blinded.
Read a bit about the 'Shot Heard 'Round the World'. Those of you denigating and ridiculing people willing to die for principle...ridicule the Founders.
Perhaps there is nothing YOU are willing to die for...obviously the Second Amendment isn't one of them. The often repeated mantra.."Without the NRA..none of us would have guns"..is proof positive of that fact.
One thing for sure. I have no intension of 'taking orders' from a FFL holder..one engaged in doing the Beast's work for him.
One last thing. A people unwilling to uphold a basic right..the right to keep and bear arms..SHOULD be totally disarmed. They are unfit to make the decisions necessary to exercise that right.
Given that some day, couragous men wade into the breech to defend the Constitution..and the bulk of people watch it on tv.... Those unwilling to aid those men will discover entirely too late the price of being a coward.
You folks have a nice life.
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I have an understanding of how economics work....and if the stores that supply the gun industry with their customers goes away???? Guess what....the guns will go with them. There is no other way of looking at it. Some may think the manufacturers will start to sell to the public....NO...that is NOT ging to happen.
It is blatently obvious you have NO idea how economics work. If I make product A, but have no stores willing to sell it,I will sell direct. If I have been making product A for decades, yet all the stores who used to sell it are out of business, I will sell direct. The manufacturers who want to stay in business will sell direct or have their own shops. Do you sell Boyd's stock's? How 'bout Blue Wonder? Bought direct didn't ya? Yeah, me too.
Some people have this crazy view of the future where the people who "fight for true freedom" gather up and have some type of battle....99% would agree that is pure looney. I can just see some kind of deliverance/waco made for t.v. movie playing out in a few of our subscribers minds.More like Red Dawn. Nice of you to disrespect the cutomers you purport to be defending against the tyranny of the JBT's
I would prefer we just hold on to what little bit we have got....rather than hole up in the woods with all our comrades, drinking powdered milk and other rations provided by our chosen leader while surrounded by a few officers of each agency and t.v. cameras.Like a game of tug-o-war, it is better to let go altogether, giving the impression of losing, than eating mud, no?
What person wouldn't want to defend their business???? Especially if it were THE VERY FRONT LINE OF WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DEFEND.
I personally don't feel that any majority, or even large enough group do actually do any good, of Americans is going to rise up and physically overthrow the flawed governments we have riding herd over us. I don't even need to take gun rights into consideration for me to offer evidence of this. I merely need offer the excessive collections and wasting of hard earned American citizen tax dollars.
We all know that various of our governments collect (actually at the point of a gun, although the gun is rarely visiable) and waste w-a-y too much of our hard earned money. And while money is just paper, it is also the life-blood of what takes cares of, suports and provides, not just for us, but for the present AND FUTURE of our loved ones.
Yet I have never, ever read on this forum where any of you "pure" gun rights believers have or are planning to retify that tremendous injustice/crime against American taxpayers.
And if you HAD pulled something off or were planning to, you should theoretically have about 250 MILLION Americans fighting with you, as compared to the measly 65 Million American gun owners that "might" help you in a revolt for gun rights. So I would think that this "tax revolt" would have already taken place. Yet still I see no physical action from you. I only see posted comments about what will happen if the government takes your guns.
In the vast majority of such published claims (Highball, you are probably an exception) since I see no action to save your income from being excessively taxed and wasted, then I consider it nothing but empty talk in regards to you saving your gun rights by waiting until the SHTF to take action.
We are making a major mistake by hammering on Locust Fork. One reason is because she is one of us; a gun person. She is NOT trying to take away our guns. In fact, she is following the rules established by OUR government. The very government we are either guilty of having voted into office or guilty of not having voted/kept that government out of office. She DID NOT make the rules. And if she and other FFL's weren't there, except for the occasional person to person buy/sell, none of us could LEGALLY buy a gun. If anyone wants to hammer on the people responsible for taking/trying to take away our guns, go hammer on Diane Feinstein, Charles Schumer, Ted Kennedy, the BAFTE, the liberals Republicians, the liberal Democrats, etc.
Again, she DID NOT create this situation. Perhaps this situtation should not exist and should be changed. But she is not capable of changing it by herself whether she wants to or not. In the meantime, solely because of her and others like her, we all can buy, sell and ship guns WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT GOING TO PRISON.
Geez people, get your priorities straight and figure out who your true enemies really are and go hammer on them.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct.
Do you really want to go......there?
Fox;
I invite you and LF to do exactly the same. Stop hammering those of us
that are pointing out what SHOULD BE..rather then what is.
Without the knowlege of what RIGHT is..how is one supposed to know when WRONG is ?
Those of us pointing to what MUST happen..when the begging is over with..really don't need 'proof' of our pre-destined failure..(or so you guys believe) to take the heart out of any who would undertake responsibility to ensure the survival of freedom in this country...We need those loving liberty to understand that sometimes crawling on your bellies fails.
Tax matters ? This is a gun rights forum.
Personal property; See above.
Privacy; See above
I chose to mainly stay with gun matters..because in the end..NOTHING else will regain freedom for America. All the crawling and begging to corrupt politicians mean nothing.
Where was Locust Fork when 240,000 FFL's were 'reduced' by the Batf...? Cheering each time the customer level in her shop went up ..as so many dealers did ? Does she still belong to the dealer association that printed over and over in their rag..about 'Kitchen Table Dealers' taking bread out of 'Stocking Dealers' mouths ?..those pieces of snit going to Washington working to get licenses tightened up...What GARBAGE they are...
There will be no peace between your side, Tr, and mine...as long as you and yours accuse us of being brainless fanatics intent only on Waco-style homosexual made-for-tv stupidity.
You, yourself,Tr...pointed out that there isn't 250 million people in the streets over 65% taxation. That is a blow for MY side..not yours. My side being...MOST people living in this country are too STUPID to understand freedom.
I would gladly remove myself from the role of taxpayer, if there were a way to do so and do the things that need doing (like kids, college, heat etc.) They would eventually come a knockin' to find out where the income came from. As it is, a small percentage of it currently comes from under the table sources. I would like if more did. Time will slowly increase it.
As for bashing on LF. She seems (as you) to believe that without a gun shop, firearms would be unavailable. We know this is false. I purchased my first gunstore gun at the age of about 28. Most of my guns come from elsewhere-some right from the government (or the CMP)most were private purchase. I applaud her and any other FFL that engages in the support of the laws and rules fight. But to think when FFL's are gone there will be no source of guns. Read my sig.
The way it WAS...........
Walk into almost ANY hardware store, rifles and shotguns were hanging on the walls, or on racks. Handguns, if not there, were available to order. Army-Navy surplus stores, 55 gallon BARRELS of rifles, racks of rifles, handguns behind the counter. Montgomery Wards, Sears, J.C. Pennys, etc. guns galore.
Take little Johnny in to get his very first 22 rifle or shotgun, and the sales clerk KNEW it was for little Johnny, and would help pick out the right one. Make your decision, order or pay for them, go home. NO forms, NO red tape, NO hassle.
AND everyone KNEW that little Johnny was going to take that 22 rifle ON the SCHOOL BUS, TO SCHOOL, so that he could go hunting on the way home, after school.
Why isn't it this way now?
LAWS.
UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS
EVERY ONE.
Along with the lack of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Fox;
I invite you and LF to do exactly the same. Stop hammering those of us
that are pointing out what SHOULD BE..rather then what is.
Without the knowlege of what RIGHT is..how is one supposed to know when WRONG is ?
Those of us pointing to what MUST happen..when the begging is over with..really don't need 'proof' of our pre-destined failure..(or so you guys believe) to take the heart out of any who would undertake responsibility to ensure the survival of freedom in this country...We need those loving liberty to understand that sometimes crawling on your bellies fails.
Tax matters ? This is a gun rights forum.
Personal property; See above.
Privacy; See above
I chose to mainly stay with gun matters..because in the end..NOTHING else will regain freedom for America. All the crawling and begging to corrupt politicians mean nothing.
Where was Locust Fork when 240,000 FFL's were 'reduced' by the Batf...? Cheering each time the customer level in her shop went up ..as so many dealers did ? Does she still belong to the dealer association that printed over and over in their rag..about 'Kitchen Table Dealers' taking bread out of 'Stocking Dealers' mouths ?..those pieces of snit going to Washington working to get licenses tightened up...What GARBAGE they are...
There will be no peace between your side, Tr, and mine...as long as you and yours accuse us of being brainless fanatics intent only on Waco-style homosexual made-for-tv stupidity.
You, yourself,Tr...pointed out that there isn't 250 million people in the streets over 65% taxation. That is a blow for MY side..not yours. My side being...MOST people living in this country are too STUPID to understand freedom.
In red above. You make my point for me Highball. It is painfully obvious that not enough American people will EVER fight the unconstitional actions of their government other than with lawsuits against that government and people like gun owners pooling their resources and efforts to elect and keep legislators that maybe, just maybe, might start returning our constitutional rights to us.
This is the ONLY fighting you are going to get out of the American people so you might as well work as hard as you can to make sure that this type of fighting is adequate enough to get our rights back for us.
Cause there ain't gonna be any other kinda fighting.
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct.
Do you really want to go......there?
I'm sure you have noticed that for awhile now I have not "gone there" Pickenup. Just as you and most others haven't either. But when I see somebody post a long and wordy post and in that post carelessly bash the NRA, using a lie that everyone should know is a lie, I cannot remain quiet.
And regardless of how anyone feels about the NRA, GOA, SAF, etc, when they read someone bashing those organizations, using lies, they out of honesty and fairness should speak up. That is only what a decent person would do, just as if I read someone bashing one of our members, even someone I might not like, and the bashing was done using one or more lies.
quote:Originally posted by codenamepaul
Good post TR-
I would gladly remove myself from the role of taxpayer, if there were a way to do so and do the things that need doing (like kids, college, heat etc.) They would eventually come a knockin' to find out where the income came from. As it is, a small percentage of it currently comes from under the table sources. I would like if more did. Time will slowly increase it.
As for bashing on LF. She seems (as you) to believe that without a gun shop, firearms would be unavailable. We know this is false. I purchased my first gunstore gun at the age of about 28. Most of my guns come from elsewhere-some right from the government (or the CMP)most were private purchase. I applaud her and any other FFL that engages in the support of the laws and rules fight. But to think when FFL's are gone there will be no source of guns. Read my sig.
In red above. I very much like your signature line. It caught my attention awhile back.
In some places, with the state laws in place, if it were not for FFL holders offering their services to the public there would be no legal handgun sales. In EVERY state, if it were not for FFL holders offering their services, there would be no out of state handgun sales for ANYBODY.
Like it or not, constitutional or not, that's just the way it is. The FFL holders did not bring this situation on us.
The Founders did it with 3% of the population...Then they taught us to fear a Democracy..the tyranny of the masses.In this world...the masses are wrong 95% of the time.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct.
Do you really want to go......there?
I'm sure you have noticed that for awhile now I have not "gone there" Pickenup. Just as you and most others haven't either. But when I see somebody post a long and wordy post and in that post carelessly bash the NRA, using a lie that everyone should know is a lie, I cannot remain quiet.
And regardless of how anyone feels about the NRA, GOA, SAF, etc, when they read someone bashing those organizations, using lies, they out of honesty and fairness should speak up. That is only what a decent person would do, just as if I read someone bashing one of our members, even someone I might not like, and the bashing was done using one or more lies.
Why would anyone let a critical lie stand?
For the quote in red (haven't gone there) Yes, I have noticed, thanks.
***************
As for the rest. It's a matter of perspective.
The poster says that he feels that we have an advantage right now, and that we should be going on the OFFENSE. Not "just" the NRA either. The poster did say, and I quote, "the NRA, and every other PRO-2nd-AMENDMENT organization out there"
The NRA is doing what it has always done. Filing lawsuits on "actions" which is a DEFENSIVE move. Since they are doing nothing NEW here, I can see where some would consider this kind of (reactive) action, to be resting on their laurels. They are not actively working "to ADVANCE" their (our) position. I see NO effort to roll back ANY (not even one) of the UN-constitutional laws that are in place. Not by the NRA or ANY OTHER pro-gun group.
Looking at it from this perspective, is there a lie?
********************
"IF" we have an advantage of ANY kind, ALL of the pro-gun groups SHOULD be pushing the envelope, to gain as much ground as we possibly can, before the pendulum swings the other way.
In my dictionary "resting on laurals" means to be doing nothing but resting. And that "doing nothing" was specifically linked to S.F. Since the NRA is the only organization I know of doing "something" in S.F., specifically trying to roll back the handgun and ammo ban, and since doing "something" is the exact opposite of doing "nothing" (a.k.a. resting on laurals) then the charge published by said poster is a clear untruth.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
In my dictionary "resting on laurals" means to be doing nothing but resting. And that "doing nothing" was specifically linked to S.F. Since the NRA is the only organization I know of doing "something" in S.F., specifically trying to roll back the handgun and ammo ban, and since doing "something" is the exact opposite of doing "nothing" (a.k.a. resting on laurals) then the charge published by said poster is a clear untruth.
I.E. a lie.
OK. "Technically" speaking (according to the dictionary) your right.
(See, I can say that, didn`t hurt a bit [:D])
Oh and by the way, I do happen to agree with ya, people should get their facts straight.
So, with this precedent set, I will be watching future posts, to see if they are strictly "technically" correct. [;)]
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
In my dictionary "resting on laurals" means to be doing nothing but resting. And that "doing nothing" was specifically linked to S.F. Since the NRA is the only organization I know of doing "something" in S.F., specifically trying to roll back the handgun and ammo ban, and since doing "something" is the exact opposite of doing "nothing" (a.k.a. resting on laurals) then the charge published by said poster is a clear untruth.
I.E. a lie.
OK. "Technically" speaking (according to the dictionary) your right.
(See, I can say that, didn`t hurt a bit [:D])
Oh and by the way, I do happen to agree with ya, people should get their facts straight.
So, with this precedent set, I will be watching future posts, to see if they are strictly "technically" correct. [;)]
Thank you. I certainly don't want you to get "hurt" just from posting back and forth with me [:o)]. BTW ANYTIME I post a cold, hard, fact, along with my opinion, and that fact is incorrect, I want to know about it. Of course in a case like that, when my incorrect fact is pointed out to me, I will cheerfully aknowledge that, but I may not change my opinion; perhaps because of other true facts that are associated with my position/opinion, etc.
And of course my opinion, whether right or wrong to someone else, can still be "my" opinion. Just as with anyone else here.
And BTW, there is no reason to try and gloss over what that poster tried to do. He made a serious effort to smear the NRA using a grossly wrong fact. Nothing "technical" about it. If I was to accuse you of doing absoutely nothing to stick up for your gun rights, would I be guilty of a "technical" lie in an unfair effort to besmirch your reputation? Or would I be guilty of a gross mistake (or maybe even an outright lie) with the harmful goal of making others here unjustly think you are a defective person?
In red above. While you worded your statement well to give cover, many people here could have EASILY caught the "technical" error that I caught. Why does it always have to be me?
Exactly what I have done for a number of years. I would rather buy some ammunition and give it to a like minded friend..then send one dime to the NRA.
My eyes were opened slowly...but one day I realized the truth. There will NEVER be another dime sent to ANY 'gun rights' organization...unless or until that case goes to SCOTUS.
THE NRA SUCKS WE LOSE RIGHTS THEY COLLECT DUES.... TO HELL WITH THAT
PUT YOUR MONEY IN YOUR POCKET FOR 1 YEAR AND BUY A NEW PISTOL! OR AK!
Oh, BTW, since you obviously don't have a clue, I will tell you the exact amount of the yearly NRA dues cost those people who care enough to pay a tiny amount of money to try and protect our gun rights by being dues paying members of one of the national pro-gun rights groups.
You can buy a yearly NRA membership for a little as $25.00 per year.
If you can buy a "new pistol" or an "AK" for such a small, pitiful, amount of money, then you need to tell all your friends here where it is you do your gun buying.
TR;
I am sure he is talking about the hundreds of dollars advocated by some to be sent to various 'gun rights groups'..to 'fight for our rights'.
His point being..a better fight can be made of owning various and sundry items such as guns and ammo then firing off money into the great voids of this or that group...
Thanks for the complement on the sig TR, It is original as was my last.
As for the money for NRA vs. guns. The good lord had blessed me with a mind that permits its use to make a good sum of money. I find myself in the position to do both, so I do. As I said before, for me to engage in the hard fight, It would be somewhat hypocritical to say I had not at least done something to further the soft one. But when that day comes, and the soft fight is LOST, not just futile (I don't believe any action to be futile until it is lost) I don't want to hear any reasoning other than pass the ammo.
quote:Originally posted by codenamepaul
Thanks for the complement on the sig TR, It is original as was my last.
As for the money for NRA vs. guns. The good lord had blessed me with a mind that permits its use to make a good sum of money. I find myself in the position to do both, so I do. As I said before, for me to engage in the hard fight, It would be somewhat hypocritical to say I had not at least done something to further the soft one. But when that day comes, and the soft fight is LOST, not just futile (I don't believe any action to be futile until it is lost) I don't want to hear any reasoning other than pass the ammo.
I notice such things and, because of the above in red, I am very impressed.
I really must try .... again .... to get across how I feel that the gun industry relies GREATLY on gun stores. If all stores were to close there would not be a market. Anyone who believes the gun industry would make it without FFLs to distribute the guns to the buyers....does not know how things REALLY work.
If a gun is produced, the distributors are given these guns to sell to FFLs and then the public gets to "shop" for this gun in a store. If there is no FFL, the distributor goes away....then the manufacturer. The people who are making guns are ALREADY going away. Look at Winchester, Llama, those are two this year that have closed.
I know a lot of people think that because you have done "trades" and purchased guns from people for decades and had very few dealings with actual FFL holders.....that if FFLs go, well....whatever....I haven't needed them for much anyway. Right????
Wait until the market changes. The guns that are easily gotten now....not so if they are suddenly VERY EXPENSIVE. With the FFLs gone, there will be a lot of people suddenly facing the ATF and fighting charges in court. Nobody gets a gun legally acording to the ATF...you may not EVER hear any of them say that, but look at all of the people who have spent TONS of money fighting the most insane charges brought on by the ATF.
So, just picture one sunday....running into an old friend at the store. He says he wants to sell his Ruger 10/22 and knows you liked it. He offers it to you for the "fair market price" ($1,000.00) which is so high.....because they don't make it any longer and all guns are at least 10 times what they should be because Ruger closed a year ago....one of the last factories we HAD. Next thing you know....your house is surrounded by agents. Someone has tipped them off that you have some kind of illegal weapon....(you don't, but that doesn't matter.)
You spend $360,000.00 fighting to stay out of prison....only to have the charges dropped in the end. Anyone who thinks these things aren't already happening can just look at how much full auto guns cost. Can anyone get one for under what a surgical procedure costs?
I must also say one tiny thing about the NRA....I support them, but they are not the front lines of what I think is our key to having gun rights. The real key to having guns is teaching the kids and building their intrests around guns. With the future we have to build a strong idea of what is "right" in our children.
The NRA seems to be more of a "lobby group" for guns. I would not want to see where things would be without them, but I also know they have never been fully behind any ONE PERSON (not people) who was having troubles that involved guns. I am a member, but they are not who I think some of us wish they were....some people think that if we send them more money they will be able to fight better for our side. As with all large groups, money is abused and suits meeting with suits spending money never leads to what people think it will.
As for the complete MORON that had the insulting remark that I cheer the closing of other gun stores...because I somehow would make a profit. I have a FREE MAGNUM RES. DESERT EAGLE for you....I promise, no cost whatsoever!!!! You just have to have to shove it up you @$$. I can promise you also....that you OBVIOUSLY don't know me at all.
If we gun owners cheerfully let any government agency run roughshod over ANY legal gun business/person/organization, after that agency is through with that particular victim, you are next
Welcome to the REAL WORLD, Fox....those agencies ARE running roughshod over an entire NATION...your precious NRA to the contrary.
So,Locust, we can assume from your hysterical response that you did INDEED cheer when those other 'kitchen table dealers' were closed...as the rest of your buddies you loudly defend did..and do.
As for your position about firearms manufacturers..you are correct.
ONLY in a government controlled system.
That is why people like you could not stand for government controls to go away...you arn't smart enough to run a gun business in a free enterprise system.
See...free enterprise means that you actually need to know something about the product..so people don't just order from the factory.
You arn't smart enough to realize that if the damn goverment got out of the gun-control business..there would be 5000 GUN MANUFACTURERS within 1 year of that date...with guns you can't even imagine out there.You arn't smart enough to realize that government has driven up the cost of a gun maker doing business till only big guys can make it...and a few custom makers selling 5000 dollar guns.
You arn't smart enough to understand ANYTHING except for your little end of things...the overall picture totally eludes you.
I have a bit of advice for you. Keep right on trying to sway opinion of others on the board. Do not address me ...nor hurl insults at me. I will respond in kind..and I have a thicker skin then you. It is quite obvious that you wish others only to get on board with your program..and will tolerate no other ideas. You present nothing but emotional fuzzy thoughts to back up your program...and emotion is what is used to promote gun control. I don't buy into it.
Odd how many items, such as appliances, while having little government restrictions (federal forms, background check, federal license, etc) could easily be sold directly from the factory, yet are not. And in most cases the salesperson working for the appliance dealer has little technical understanding of how each applicance actually functions (electronically, mechanically, etc)
If al gun laws went away and guns were treated like refrigerators, we would still have dealers.
Prior to 1968 there were 'dealers'...everywhere. Every gas station had a gun or two behind the door. Every general store had a rack of guns.
When you wanted solid information, you went to a gun store. Of course there were gun shops.
Equating guns with refrigerators..not my way of thinking.
Without going into an entire discourse about the incesteous relationship between big business and the endless layers of middlemen...all raping a profit from the end user..my point is meaningless, I suppose.
Once again...I refer you to Dillon Reloading.Please educate yourself on Mike Dillion's history. Read about how he cut out the grasping, greedy middlemen...and went factory DIRECT.
Go back and STUDY..prior 1968...how a CITIZEN could pick the phone up and order A rifle from a distributor..or the MANY mail order centers in this country.
TR..instead of blindly following....THINK ABOUT WHAT FREEDOM MEANS.....
It is obvious to me that there are people who think that one day our government will somehow not have control over who is able to have a gun. Maybe it could happen....I have NO IDEA HOW...unless some catastrophic event took place. My complaint is with the REAL world...right now...our system that we actually have some control over. I will be involved with guns from now on....that is a fact. I have a system that I used to buy, sell, trade and collect guns. The system is one that was put here to appease the people who are anti-gun. Without the gun stores to handle this horrible system we have things would be grim for anyone who wanted to aquire a gun.
Maybe if you have money to burn you can go to these so called "direct" gun people.....and get a gun that is ten times what it should cost. If the ATF were in their doorway 100% of the time it wouldn't take long to shut the plant down....so if this is your plan for the future....start saving now. Your next purchase may cost more than your house and it won't be available for long.
I think it is amazing that I have not heard from them....October was our one year mark and we are way overdue for our "visit." I think they are waiting a good long time....trying to get our guard down.
I have been through all of the reports....the problem with this policy they are using with us is that it is part of their allowed procedures. I need help trying to fight them if THEY are actually following the rules. I don't know if anything can be done if they aren't breaking the rules....just enforcing a rediculous amount of regulations and policies they have been given.
If they ever do step over that line...I will be all over them. I have been pushed a bit too much to let them get away with anything.
Comments
However...you missed the part where he said he would give them to:
quote:". I might even start GIVING guns away, so long as I knew the people I was giving them to to have the right mind-set, of course.
So far...all's I have heard you gripe about is the loss of your business...carefully couched in terms of "You gun-owners won't be able to buy guns" rhetoric.....
Carefully study the post from Blazerdog..perhaps...(but I doubt it)...you may learn something.
The responses you got over in General about the shot gun OUGHT be an education for you. Guns for most people are a tool. They care little about their tools' heritage..nor the vary real background of just exactly WHY they enjoy the vestiges of freedom in this country...guns in the hands of brave men.
Some people have this crazy view of the future where the people who "fight for true freedom" gather up and have some type of battle....99% would agree that is pure looney. I can just see some kind of deliverance/waco made for t.v. movie playing out in a few of our subscribers minds.
I would prefer we just hold on to what little bit we have got....rather than hole up in the woods with all our comrades, drinking powdered milk and other rations provided by our chosen leader while surrounded by a few officers of each agency and t.v. cameras.
What person wouldn't want to defend their business???? Especially if it were THE VERY FRONT LINE OF WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DEFEND.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Well written, indeed. It would work work. The exact process that would bring the American people back to the Constitution..all without even realizing it.
I believe that the Elites will prevent it..
I believe that you are right that the elites will ATTEMPT to prevent it.
After all, commonsense dictates such a probability.
However, the concrete proof that that attempt is doomed to failure is the last 18 years of CCW history in the good old U.S.A.: CCW, PRO-CCW legislation, and ever-increasing sales of legally purchased handguns condtradicts your well-founded pessimism.
In the last 18 years the unimaginable has happened: a HUGE proportion of the population has gone PRO-2nd-AMENDMENT.
The NRA, and every other PRO-2nd-AMENDMENT organization out there, should be acting on that fact by promoting with all their might the cause for CCW where it is most hated (LOS ANGELES, NEW YORK, D.C.).
Right now, the NRA seems to be resting on its laurels.
BIG MISTAKE.
WE NOW HAVE THE ADVANTAGE AND SHOULD BE GOING ON THE OFFENSIVE!!!
If the NRA would help a SHALL-ISSUE Sheriff get elected in Los Angeles County in June of 2006, that would send PRO-2nd-Amendment shock waves throughout the culture.
Our culture, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is shaped by, or reacts against the shaping of, one force above all: HOLLYWOOD, which is located in LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
Now, the greedy anti-gun villains who control HOLLYWOOD are not invincible.
Their greatest strength, OVERWHELMING GREED, is also their GREATEST WEAKNESS.
If the greedy anti-gun villains who control HOLLYWOOD see the cultural climate change, they will respond accordingly.
THEY WILL MAKE PRO-2ND AMENDMENT MOVIES AND T.V. SHOWS.
Hollywood knows that its current virulent anti-white, anti-rural, anti-"redneck" bias is being approached by a wave of PRO-2nd-Amendment feeling, a wave that threatens to swamp HOLLYWOOD--which is why the latest "hit" sit-coms (NBC's "My name is Earl") and movies ("Brokeback Mtn." by Focus Features, headquarters located at Universal City Studios, which is owned by NBC) are BLATANT attempts to humiliate, besmirch, and discredit the kind of person usually thought of by the mainstream public as pro-gun (i.e., "rednecks" and "cowboys").
We are all familiar with the concept of the battle that turns the tide in a war.
Usually, there are a succession of such battles (not merely one), that create a momentum that carries combatants to victory.
Right now the PRO-2ND AMENDMENT people have that momentum but don't seem to realize that fact.
They also don't seem to realize where to focus the great bulk of their lobbying influence next: THE 2006 ELECTION CAMPAIGN FOR THE NEXT SHERIFF OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
Why?
Our Sheriff is the sole controller of who issues CCWs in this county of 4,084 square miles (over 10 million people).
Defeat him with a PRO-CCW, SHALL-ISSUE Sheriff, and I guarantee you that there will be tidal wave of applicants for CCW in LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
There is more pent-up demand (AND NEED) here than you all can possibly imagine.
We've got the anti-gun crowd on the run but does anyone realize it?
Why do you think the BATF is coming on so strong?
The citizens are arming themselves in ever greater numbers.
BATF can't stop that.
The only thing it can do is close the stores.
THAT'S WHY BATF is getting so fanatical.
We need to take a more sophisticated approach.
We need to learn which Congressional and Senate committees have influence over BATF and PUT PRESSURE ON THOSE LEGISLATORS.
Hell, we can do that for free (virtually).
We just all need to regularly send loud letters, faxes and e-mails voicing complaint--and promise to withhold support in elections if our needs are not acknowledged.
At that national level, we need to pressure legislators to curb the BATF.
At the local level:
THE 2006 ELECTION CAMPAIGN FOR THE NEXT SHERIFF OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY IS THE NEXT GREAT BATTLEGROUND.
[B)]
L.A. influences the rest of California.
California influences the rest of the country.
There's an old saying that has proven correct in many crucial battles of the culture wars over the decades:
"As California goes, so goes the country."
Every 2nd Amendment supporter should have one eye on his own state and ONE UNBLINKING EYE ON CALIFORNIA.
[:(!]
Maybe it's just me, but I DON'T consider the fact that the NRA is about the only gun rights organization to have filed a lawsuit in an attempt to stop the San Francisco handgun ban, and indeed has temporarily stopped said ban, to be "resting on their laurals".
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct. Otherwise it it "you" who is "resting on your laurals" in being over-eager to act like you know what you are talking about by not taking the time to get your facts straight.
And BTW, why haven't more pro-gun people on this forum already pointed out this careless mistake? Is it because so many gun owners are always ready to bash the NRA but rarely ready to defend it?
I have an understanding of how economics work....and if the stores that supply the gun industry with their customers goes away???? Guess what....the guns will go with them. There is no other way of looking at it. Some may think the manufacturers will start to sell to the public....NO...that is NOT ging to happen.
Some people have this crazy view of the future where the people who "fight for true freedom" gather up and have some type of battle....99% would agree that is pure looney. I can just see some kind of deliverance/waco made for t.v. movie playing out in a few of our subscribers minds.
I would prefer we just hold on to what little bit we have got....rather than hole up in the woods with all our comrades, drinking powdered milk and other rations provided by our chosen leader while surrounded by a few officers of each agency and t.v. cameras.
What person wouldn't want to defend their business???? Especially if it were THE VERY FRONT LINE OF WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DEFEND.
LF, because of your comments in red above, you at this moment may be the smartest and most aware, realistic poster on this forum.
The great majority of gun owners won't even spend a little, money and effort helping in the gun rights political battles. If they would, we wouldn't have these gun rights problem. In view of this lazy, lack-of-action, it is laughable to listen to these people beat their chest and claim the government better not come and get their guns or the government will regret it. Or make the heroic claim that the gun owner will gladly go out in a bloody, blaze of glory in a battle with the government at their front door of their home with their family cowering in the bedroom.
It is so laughable to hear such big talk from these guns owner, owners who presently refuse to take any action will, when the SHTF, take major action .
In regards to anyone believeing you are only selfishly wanting to protect your business, I respect you for being on the front line of the gunrights battle, suffering for it, and making an effort to fight back. Your resistance is far more action than most other gun owners are willing to offer.
And besides, as long as a person's reason for fighting back are responsible and honest, I don't really care WHAT those reasons are. They are still reasons that have put the two of us in the same trench on the same side in the gun rights war.
the TRs/Locust Forks...vs those unwilling to embrace encroaching tyranny.
The sweet voice of reason seems firmly to be on their side.
History is on OUR side.
The slings and arrows of those supporting 'limited' gun control no longer shock me..as a few years ago it would.... and did.
My mistake fow many years was assuming that people would understand that, unlike many things...gun control is EVIL vs GOOD..there IS no grey area contained within that subject.
Therefore..those actively promoting gun control want the worst for you and yours. Those supporting gun control are, for lack of a better word...brain-washed.
Some can be re-educated into reality..some can't.
All the picture of women and children herded into ditches and shot have absolutely no effect on those willfully self-blinded.
Read a bit about the 'Shot Heard 'Round the World'. Those of you denigating and ridiculing people willing to die for principle...ridicule the Founders.
Perhaps there is nothing YOU are willing to die for...obviously the Second Amendment isn't one of them. The often repeated mantra.."Without the NRA..none of us would have guns"..is proof positive of that fact.
One thing for sure. I have no intension of 'taking orders' from a FFL holder..one engaged in doing the Beast's work for him.
One last thing. A people unwilling to uphold a basic right..the right to keep and bear arms..SHOULD be totally disarmed. They are unfit to make the decisions necessary to exercise that right.
Given that some day, couragous men wade into the breech to defend the Constitution..and the bulk of people watch it on tv.... Those unwilling to aid those men will discover entirely too late the price of being a coward.
You folks have a nice life.
I have an understanding of how economics work....and if the stores that supply the gun industry with their customers goes away???? Guess what....the guns will go with them. There is no other way of looking at it. Some may think the manufacturers will start to sell to the public....NO...that is NOT ging to happen.
It is blatently obvious you have NO idea how economics work. If I make product A, but have no stores willing to sell it,I will sell direct. If I have been making product A for decades, yet all the stores who used to sell it are out of business, I will sell direct. The manufacturers who want to stay in business will sell direct or have their own shops. Do you sell Boyd's stock's? How 'bout Blue Wonder? Bought direct didn't ya? Yeah, me too.
Some people have this crazy view of the future where the people who "fight for true freedom" gather up and have some type of battle....99% would agree that is pure looney. I can just see some kind of deliverance/waco made for t.v. movie playing out in a few of our subscribers minds.More like Red Dawn. Nice of you to disrespect the cutomers you purport to be defending against the tyranny of the JBT's
I would prefer we just hold on to what little bit we have got....rather than hole up in the woods with all our comrades, drinking powdered milk and other rations provided by our chosen leader while surrounded by a few officers of each agency and t.v. cameras.Like a game of tug-o-war, it is better to let go altogether, giving the impression of losing, than eating mud, no?
What person wouldn't want to defend their business???? Especially if it were THE VERY FRONT LINE OF WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DEFEND.
We all know that various of our governments collect (actually at the point of a gun, although the gun is rarely visiable) and waste w-a-y too much of our hard earned money. And while money is just paper, it is also the life-blood of what takes cares of, suports and provides, not just for us, but for the present AND FUTURE of our loved ones.
Yet I have never, ever read on this forum where any of you "pure" gun rights believers have or are planning to retify that tremendous injustice/crime against American taxpayers.
And if you HAD pulled something off or were planning to, you should theoretically have about 250 MILLION Americans fighting with you, as compared to the measly 65 Million American gun owners that "might" help you in a revolt for gun rights. So I would think that this "tax revolt" would have already taken place. Yet still I see no physical action from you. I only see posted comments about what will happen if the government takes your guns.
In the vast majority of such published claims (Highball, you are probably an exception) since I see no action to save your income from being excessively taxed and wasted, then I consider it nothing but empty talk in regards to you saving your gun rights by waiting until the SHTF to take action.
Again, she DID NOT create this situation. Perhaps this situtation should not exist and should be changed. But she is not capable of changing it by herself whether she wants to or not. In the meantime, solely because of her and others like her, we all can buy, sell and ship guns WITHOUT WORRYING ABOUT GOING TO PRISON.
Geez people, get your priorities straight and figure out who your true enemies really are and go hammer on them.
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct.
Do you really want to go......there?
I invite you and LF to do exactly the same. Stop hammering those of us
that are pointing out what SHOULD BE..rather then what is.
Without the knowlege of what RIGHT is..how is one supposed to know when WRONG is ?
Those of us pointing to what MUST happen..when the begging is over with..really don't need 'proof' of our pre-destined failure..(or so you guys believe) to take the heart out of any who would undertake responsibility to ensure the survival of freedom in this country...We need those loving liberty to understand that sometimes crawling on your bellies fails.
Tax matters ? This is a gun rights forum.
Personal property; See above.
Privacy; See above
I chose to mainly stay with gun matters..because in the end..NOTHING else will regain freedom for America. All the crawling and begging to corrupt politicians mean nothing.
Where was Locust Fork when 240,000 FFL's were 'reduced' by the Batf...? Cheering each time the customer level in her shop went up ..as so many dealers did ? Does she still belong to the dealer association that printed over and over in their rag..about 'Kitchen Table Dealers' taking bread out of 'Stocking Dealers' mouths ?..those pieces of snit going to Washington working to get licenses tightened up...What GARBAGE they are...
There will be no peace between your side, Tr, and mine...as long as you and yours accuse us of being brainless fanatics intent only on Waco-style homosexual made-for-tv stupidity.
You, yourself,Tr...pointed out that there isn't 250 million people in the streets over 65% taxation. That is a blow for MY side..not yours. My side being...MOST people living in this country are too STUPID to understand freedom.
I would gladly remove myself from the role of taxpayer, if there were a way to do so and do the things that need doing (like kids, college, heat etc.) They would eventually come a knockin' to find out where the income came from. As it is, a small percentage of it currently comes from under the table sources. I would like if more did. Time will slowly increase it.
As for bashing on LF. She seems (as you) to believe that without a gun shop, firearms would be unavailable. We know this is false. I purchased my first gunstore gun at the age of about 28. Most of my guns come from elsewhere-some right from the government (or the CMP)most were private purchase. I applaud her and any other FFL that engages in the support of the laws and rules fight. But to think when FFL's are gone there will be no source of guns. Read my sig.
Walk into almost ANY hardware store, rifles and shotguns were hanging on the walls, or on racks. Handguns, if not there, were available to order. Army-Navy surplus stores, 55 gallon BARRELS of rifles, racks of rifles, handguns behind the counter. Montgomery Wards, Sears, J.C. Pennys, etc. guns galore.
Take little Johnny in to get his very first 22 rifle or shotgun, and the sales clerk KNEW it was for little Johnny, and would help pick out the right one. Make your decision, order or pay for them, go home. NO forms, NO red tape, NO hassle.
AND everyone KNEW that little Johnny was going to take that 22 rifle ON the SCHOOL BUS, TO SCHOOL, so that he could go hunting on the way home, after school.
Why isn't it this way now?
LAWS.
UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAWS
EVERY ONE.
Along with the lack of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Fox;
I invite you and LF to do exactly the same. Stop hammering those of us
that are pointing out what SHOULD BE..rather then what is.
Without the knowlege of what RIGHT is..how is one supposed to know when WRONG is ?
Those of us pointing to what MUST happen..when the begging is over with..really don't need 'proof' of our pre-destined failure..(or so you guys believe) to take the heart out of any who would undertake responsibility to ensure the survival of freedom in this country...We need those loving liberty to understand that sometimes crawling on your bellies fails.
Tax matters ? This is a gun rights forum.
Personal property; See above.
Privacy; See above
I chose to mainly stay with gun matters..because in the end..NOTHING else will regain freedom for America. All the crawling and begging to corrupt politicians mean nothing.
Where was Locust Fork when 240,000 FFL's were 'reduced' by the Batf...? Cheering each time the customer level in her shop went up ..as so many dealers did ? Does she still belong to the dealer association that printed over and over in their rag..about 'Kitchen Table Dealers' taking bread out of 'Stocking Dealers' mouths ?..those pieces of snit going to Washington working to get licenses tightened up...What GARBAGE they are...
There will be no peace between your side, Tr, and mine...as long as you and yours accuse us of being brainless fanatics intent only on Waco-style homosexual made-for-tv stupidity.
You, yourself,Tr...pointed out that there isn't 250 million people in the streets over 65% taxation. That is a blow for MY side..not yours. My side being...MOST people living in this country are too STUPID to understand freedom.
In red above. You make my point for me Highball. It is painfully obvious that not enough American people will EVER fight the unconstitional actions of their government other than with lawsuits against that government and people like gun owners pooling their resources and efforts to elect and keep legislators that maybe, just maybe, might start returning our constitutional rights to us.
This is the ONLY fighting you are going to get out of the American people so you might as well work as hard as you can to make sure that this type of fighting is adequate enough to get our rights back for us.
Cause there ain't gonna be any other kinda fighting.
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct.
Do you really want to go......there?
I'm sure you have noticed that for awhile now I have not "gone there" Pickenup. Just as you and most others haven't either. But when I see somebody post a long and wordy post and in that post carelessly bash the NRA, using a lie that everyone should know is a lie, I cannot remain quiet.
And regardless of how anyone feels about the NRA, GOA, SAF, etc, when they read someone bashing those organizations, using lies, they out of honesty and fairness should speak up. That is only what a decent person would do, just as if I read someone bashing one of our members, even someone I might not like, and the bashing was done using one or more lies.
Why would anyone let a critical lie stand?
Good post TR-
I would gladly remove myself from the role of taxpayer, if there were a way to do so and do the things that need doing (like kids, college, heat etc.) They would eventually come a knockin' to find out where the income came from. As it is, a small percentage of it currently comes from under the table sources. I would like if more did. Time will slowly increase it.
As for bashing on LF. She seems (as you) to believe that without a gun shop, firearms would be unavailable. We know this is false. I purchased my first gunstore gun at the age of about 28. Most of my guns come from elsewhere-some right from the government (or the CMP)most were private purchase. I applaud her and any other FFL that engages in the support of the laws and rules fight. But to think when FFL's are gone there will be no source of guns. Read my sig.
In red above. I very much like your signature line. It caught my attention awhile back.
In some places, with the state laws in place, if it were not for FFL holders offering their services to the public there would be no legal handgun sales. In EVERY state, if it were not for FFL holders offering their services, there would be no out of state handgun sales for ANYBODY.
Like it or not, constitutional or not, that's just the way it is. The FFL holders did not bring this situation on us.
The Founders did it with 3% of the population...Then they taught us to fear a Democracy..the tyranny of the masses.In this world...the masses are wrong 95% of the time.
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
If you are going to spout off and bash the NRA, and thereby cause probably some loss of support, membership and funds for the NRA, at least get your bashing correct.
Do you really want to go......there?
I'm sure you have noticed that for awhile now I have not "gone there" Pickenup. Just as you and most others haven't either. But when I see somebody post a long and wordy post and in that post carelessly bash the NRA, using a lie that everyone should know is a lie, I cannot remain quiet.
And regardless of how anyone feels about the NRA, GOA, SAF, etc, when they read someone bashing those organizations, using lies, they out of honesty and fairness should speak up. That is only what a decent person would do, just as if I read someone bashing one of our members, even someone I might not like, and the bashing was done using one or more lies.
Why would anyone let a critical lie stand?
For the quote in red (haven't gone there) Yes, I have noticed, thanks.
***************
As for the rest. It's a matter of perspective.
The poster says that he feels that we have an advantage right now, and that we should be going on the OFFENSE. Not "just" the NRA either. The poster did say, and I quote, "the NRA, and every other PRO-2nd-AMENDMENT organization out there"
The NRA is doing what it has always done. Filing lawsuits on "actions" which is a DEFENSIVE move. Since they are doing nothing NEW here, I can see where some would consider this kind of (reactive) action, to be resting on their laurels. They are not actively working "to ADVANCE" their (our) position. I see NO effort to roll back ANY (not even one) of the UN-constitutional laws that are in place. Not by the NRA or ANY OTHER pro-gun group.
Looking at it from this perspective, is there a lie?
********************
"IF" we have an advantage of ANY kind, ALL of the pro-gun groups SHOULD be pushing the envelope, to gain as much ground as we possibly can, before the pendulum swings the other way.
I.E. a lie.
In my dictionary "resting on laurals" means to be doing nothing but resting. And that "doing nothing" was specifically linked to S.F. Since the NRA is the only organization I know of doing "something" in S.F., specifically trying to roll back the handgun and ammo ban, and since doing "something" is the exact opposite of doing "nothing" (a.k.a. resting on laurals) then the charge published by said poster is a clear untruth.
I.E. a lie.
OK. "Technically" speaking (according to the dictionary) your right.
(See, I can say that, didn`t hurt a bit [:D])
Oh and by the way, I do happen to agree with ya, people should get their facts straight.
So, with this precedent set, I will be watching future posts, to see if they are strictly "technically" correct. [;)]
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
In my dictionary "resting on laurals" means to be doing nothing but resting. And that "doing nothing" was specifically linked to S.F. Since the NRA is the only organization I know of doing "something" in S.F., specifically trying to roll back the handgun and ammo ban, and since doing "something" is the exact opposite of doing "nothing" (a.k.a. resting on laurals) then the charge published by said poster is a clear untruth.
I.E. a lie.
OK. "Technically" speaking (according to the dictionary) your right.
(See, I can say that, didn`t hurt a bit [:D])
Oh and by the way, I do happen to agree with ya, people should get their facts straight.
So, with this precedent set, I will be watching future posts, to see if they are strictly "technically" correct. [;)]
Thank you. I certainly don't want you to get "hurt" just from posting back and forth with me [:o)]. BTW ANYTIME I post a cold, hard, fact, along with my opinion, and that fact is incorrect, I want to know about it. Of course in a case like that, when my incorrect fact is pointed out to me, I will cheerfully aknowledge that, but I may not change my opinion; perhaps because of other true facts that are associated with my position/opinion, etc.
And of course my opinion, whether right or wrong to someone else, can still be "my" opinion. Just as with anyone else here.
And BTW, there is no reason to try and gloss over what that poster tried to do. He made a serious effort to smear the NRA using a grossly wrong fact. Nothing "technical" about it. If I was to accuse you of doing absoutely nothing to stick up for your gun rights, would I be guilty of a "technical" lie in an unfair effort to besmirch your reputation? Or would I be guilty of a gross mistake (or maybe even an outright lie) with the harmful goal of making others here unjustly think you are a defective person?
In red above. While you worded your statement well to give cover, many people here could have EASILY caught the "technical" error that I caught. Why does it always have to be me?
PUT YOUR MONEY IN YOUR POCKET FOR 1 YEAR AND BUY A NEW PISTOL! OR AK!
THE NRA SUCKS WE LOSE RIGHTS THEY COLLECT DUES.... TO HELL WITH THAT
PUT YOUR MONEY IN YOUR POCKET FOR 1 YEAR AND BUY A NEW PISTOL! OR AK!
How about taking that money you save by stiffing the NRA and pay that money to some other good pro-gun rights organization?
BTW, for anyone interested, some people here are more in the camp of the above than in my camp. How do you like it?
Exactly what I have done for a number of years. I would rather buy some ammunition and give it to a like minded friend..then send one dime to the NRA.
My eyes were opened slowly...but one day I realized the truth. There will NEVER be another dime sent to ANY 'gun rights' organization...unless or until that case goes to SCOTUS.
THE NRA SUCKS WE LOSE RIGHTS THEY COLLECT DUES.... TO HELL WITH THAT
PUT YOUR MONEY IN YOUR POCKET FOR 1 YEAR AND BUY A NEW PISTOL! OR AK!
Oh, BTW, since you obviously don't have a clue, I will tell you the exact amount of the yearly NRA dues cost those people who care enough to pay a tiny amount of money to try and protect our gun rights by being dues paying members of one of the national pro-gun rights groups.
You can buy a yearly NRA membership for a little as $25.00 per year.
If you can buy a "new pistol" or an "AK" for such a small, pitiful, amount of money, then you need to tell all your friends here where it is you do your gun buying.
I am sure he is talking about the hundreds of dollars advocated by some to be sent to various 'gun rights groups'..to 'fight for our rights'.
His point being..a better fight can be made of owning various and sundry items such as guns and ammo then firing off money into the great voids of this or that group...
As for the money for NRA vs. guns. The good lord had blessed me with a mind that permits its use to make a good sum of money. I find myself in the position to do both, so I do. As I said before, for me to engage in the hard fight, It would be somewhat hypocritical to say I had not at least done something to further the soft one. But when that day comes, and the soft fight is LOST, not just futile (I don't believe any action to be futile until it is lost) I don't want to hear any reasoning other than pass the ammo.
Thanks for the complement on the sig TR, It is original as was my last.
As for the money for NRA vs. guns. The good lord had blessed me with a mind that permits its use to make a good sum of money. I find myself in the position to do both, so I do. As I said before, for me to engage in the hard fight, It would be somewhat hypocritical to say I had not at least done something to further the soft one. But when that day comes, and the soft fight is LOST, not just futile (I don't believe any action to be futile until it is lost) I don't want to hear any reasoning other than pass the ammo.
I notice such things and, because of the above in red, I am very impressed.
If a gun is produced, the distributors are given these guns to sell to FFLs and then the public gets to "shop" for this gun in a store. If there is no FFL, the distributor goes away....then the manufacturer. The people who are making guns are ALREADY going away. Look at Winchester, Llama, those are two this year that have closed.
I know a lot of people think that because you have done "trades" and purchased guns from people for decades and had very few dealings with actual FFL holders.....that if FFLs go, well....whatever....I haven't needed them for much anyway. Right????
Wait until the market changes. The guns that are easily gotten now....not so if they are suddenly VERY EXPENSIVE. With the FFLs gone, there will be a lot of people suddenly facing the ATF and fighting charges in court. Nobody gets a gun legally acording to the ATF...you may not EVER hear any of them say that, but look at all of the people who have spent TONS of money fighting the most insane charges brought on by the ATF.
So, just picture one sunday....running into an old friend at the store. He says he wants to sell his Ruger 10/22 and knows you liked it. He offers it to you for the "fair market price" ($1,000.00) which is so high.....because they don't make it any longer and all guns are at least 10 times what they should be because Ruger closed a year ago....one of the last factories we HAD. Next thing you know....your house is surrounded by agents. Someone has tipped them off that you have some kind of illegal weapon....(you don't, but that doesn't matter.)
You spend $360,000.00 fighting to stay out of prison....only to have the charges dropped in the end. Anyone who thinks these things aren't already happening can just look at how much full auto guns cost. Can anyone get one for under what a surgical procedure costs?
I must also say one tiny thing about the NRA....I support them, but they are not the front lines of what I think is our key to having gun rights. The real key to having guns is teaching the kids and building their intrests around guns. With the future we have to build a strong idea of what is "right" in our children.
The NRA seems to be more of a "lobby group" for guns. I would not want to see where things would be without them, but I also know they have never been fully behind any ONE PERSON (not people) who was having troubles that involved guns. I am a member, but they are not who I think some of us wish they were....some people think that if we send them more money they will be able to fight better for our side. As with all large groups, money is abused and suits meeting with suits spending money never leads to what people think it will.
As for the complete MORON that had the insulting remark that I cheer the closing of other gun stores...because I somehow would make a profit. I have a FREE MAGNUM RES. DESERT EAGLE for you....I promise, no cost whatsoever!!!! You just have to have to shove it up you @$$. I can promise you also....that you OBVIOUSLY don't know me at all.
So,Locust, we can assume from your hysterical response that you did INDEED cheer when those other 'kitchen table dealers' were closed...as the rest of your buddies you loudly defend did..and do.
As for your position about firearms manufacturers..you are correct.
ONLY in a government controlled system.
That is why people like you could not stand for government controls to go away...you arn't smart enough to run a gun business in a free enterprise system.
See...free enterprise means that you actually need to know something about the product..so people don't just order from the factory.
You arn't smart enough to realize that if the damn goverment got out of the gun-control business..there would be 5000 GUN MANUFACTURERS within 1 year of that date...with guns you can't even imagine out there.You arn't smart enough to realize that government has driven up the cost of a gun maker doing business till only big guys can make it...and a few custom makers selling 5000 dollar guns.
You arn't smart enough to understand ANYTHING except for your little end of things...the overall picture totally eludes you.
I have a bit of advice for you. Keep right on trying to sway opinion of others on the board. Do not address me ...nor hurl insults at me. I will respond in kind..and I have a thicker skin then you. It is quite obvious that you wish others only to get on board with your program..and will tolerate no other ideas. You present nothing but emotional fuzzy thoughts to back up your program...and emotion is what is used to promote gun control. I don't buy into it.
If al gun laws went away and guns were treated like refrigerators, we would still have dealers.
When you wanted solid information, you went to a gun store. Of course there were gun shops.
Equating guns with refrigerators..not my way of thinking.
Without going into an entire discourse about the incesteous relationship between big business and the endless layers of middlemen...all raping a profit from the end user..my point is meaningless, I suppose.
Once again...I refer you to Dillon Reloading.Please educate yourself on Mike Dillion's history. Read about how he cut out the grasping, greedy middlemen...and went factory DIRECT.
Go back and STUDY..prior 1968...how a CITIZEN could pick the phone up and order A rifle from a distributor..or the MANY mail order centers in this country.
TR..instead of blindly following....THINK ABOUT WHAT FREEDOM MEANS.....
Maybe if you have money to burn you can go to these so called "direct" gun people.....and get a gun that is ten times what it should cost. If the ATF were in their doorway 100% of the time it wouldn't take long to shut the plant down....so if this is your plan for the future....start saving now. Your next purchase may cost more than your house and it won't be available for long.
My complaint is with the REAL world...right now...our system that we actually have some control over.
Im glad someone has control of it...
http://www.jpfo.org/bootbatfead3.pdf
If they ever do step over that line...I will be all over them. I have been pushed a bit too much to let them get away with anything.