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Many people who are not obese have a measure of antipathy towards those who are morbidly obese. Alcohol addicts, gambling addicts etc. are more readily excepted in society than are food addicts. For some reason many people, including many here, just don't like them. No reason to be bother by them really though, at 400 pounds or so they are living on borrowed time and will be dead before too long.
The purchasing of non-essential food items like soda, candy and just plain old junk food with the food stamp credit cards could be easily fixed through the barcodes on them. Just the same as when buying hardware products at the same time, those will ring up as needing to be purchased with cash and automaticlly singled out by the cash register.
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many people who are not obese have a measure of antipathy towards those who are morbidly obese. Alcohol addicts, gambling addicts etc. are more readily excepted in society than are food addicts. For some reason many people, including many here, just don't like them. No reason to be bother by them really though, at 400 pounds or so they are living on borrowed time and will be dead before too long.
my guess is that you can't pick out the gambling addicts, alcoholics, and some drug addicts out of the crowd. they look like everyone else. Morbidly obese stick out.
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
Eric I agree that recovery is a choice. Millions upon millions of addicts in America need a recovery program. Food addicts included.
I'm just taking aback at the lack of compassion that some here have for the dieing. That's all.
quote:Originally posted by sav99
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
Eric I agree that recovery is a choice. Millions upon millions of addicts in America need a recovery program. Food addicts included.
I'm just taking aback at the lack of compassion that some here have for the dieing. That's all.
quote:Originally posted by sav99
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
Eric I agree that recovery is a choice. Millions upon millions of addicts in America need a recovery program. Food addicts included.
I'm just taking aback at the lack of compassion that some here have for the dieing. That's all.
Compasion? For people who knowingly destroy their bodies?
I have no compasion for idiocy. If I get cancer and die, I want no compasion for me poisioning MY body. I make choices. They make choices.
I think the big problems some have with obese people are:
Any that are on taxpayer monies.
Those that encroach our space, like on an airplane.
Those that want us to accept their disease, while they continue to kill themselves at someone else's expense.
Those that use their disease as an excuse to do NOTHING.
The large majority of obese people have obese children, furthering the problem.
I, as a young fella, had one doosey of a food "disease". I was fat. I overcame that, because I WANTED to. Most, not all, fat people relish in their food addictions. ( I myself love to smoke. I will stop the day I die)
I, as a smoker, am not allowed to smoke in certain places. Fat people have no such restrictions.
I can't smoke on a plane, but the tubby next to me is allowed to hang their fat rolls in my space.
We are supposed to respect other people, but some people are allowed to not respect us. If we raise cain about the fat guy on the plane, we are terrible people.
I'm going to weigh in on this one, piss some folks off and probably hit a nerve with some.
I have a degree in psychology, worked for years in what was the Army ADACP (substance abuse program), and did contract work as an addictive disorders specialist. I saw my share of different substances abused, the "reasoning" behind why some "chose" the lifestyle they led and here is my take on the issue.
Let me caveat this by stating I left the field. I could no longer reconcile what I saw with what I was supposed to do. I lost empathy with a majority of my clients. In the beginning I could be a good counselor, helping those who wanted to be helped. As substance abuse counseling became more mainstream and all the rage, it became "PC" to coddle abusers as victims of their environment, thus enabling the abusers and dismissing their responsibility for their actions.
Addiction recovery is a choice. Once an abuser/addict chooses to seek help, recovery is possible. Until that choice is made, nothing anyone can do will help the addict.
In this new day and age addicts/abusers are coddled and removed from responsibility for their actions. Ask any AA member and they will tell you that you have to want recovery more than you want the addictive behavior. Until then, never mind.
Instant gratification has become the American lifestyle and damn the consequences. If you suffer, blame your genes, your parents, the school, the system. Anyone but yourself.
Recovery is a personal decision only the addict can make. Food is no different. Yes, the one difference is we must all eat to survive. Yet, moderation in all things is a must. Diet programs where a person orders their meals to control caloric intake is just another form of not taking responsibility for behavior. Ask anyone who has lost weight in a healthy way. It was through good diet and exercise, no gimmicks, no quick fixes. Making a choice and taking control of their behavior and lifestyle led to a healthy change.
I come from a long line of short fat folks. I'm 5 feet tall in my stocking feet and I am pushing 135 lbs right now and in the process of changing some habits. Some might say, not bad, but it is because a pound here and a pound there add up to where my Mom was at 4"11" and 245 lbs. I have to watch what I eat and what I do. The hubbie is currently TDY and I have been indulging in "feel good foods" and have slacked off in the work out department. So in three months I've gained ten pounds. I "know" what is causing the weight gain, but have yet to decide how bad I want to give up the Oreos for a work out. My choice, no one elses fault.
So, when a person chooses an unhealthy lifestyle they suffer the consequences. When that lifestyle choice puts them on the government teat they have left the realm of endangering just their bodies to dipping in to my wallet. Why is their lack of responsibility now a burden on me? I am hamstrung by the tax and spend system that uses my money to buy their vote.
So, if a person did not have a pre-existing health condition that contributed to obesity, their bad choices left them where they are, choices, not circumstances, not society, not you and not me. Eat a grape or eat a cake, that is a choice. The decision is up to the individual.
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
quote:Originally posted by givette
To ECC's response to Sav99's post:
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
sensible post with real world knowledge thrown in for good measure. Now that you have laid it out there, let me ask you a question. Who's responsibility is it to support these people while they break their habit, even if they exhibit no desire to do so? Should the tax payer be held responsible for the addiction, or use of such to garn a paid existence on the hard work and toil of those who do have the strength to break their addictive habits, or never form them?
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
quote:Originally posted by givette
To ECC's response to Sav99's post:
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
sensible post with real world knowledge thrown in for good measure. Now that you have laid it out there, let me ask you a question. Who's responsibility is it to support these people while they break their habit, even if they exhibit no desire to do so? Should the tax payer be held responsible for the addiction, or use of such to garn a paid existence on the hard work and toil of those who do have the strength to break their addictive habits, or never form them?
Dunno. Honestly. I can't answer the responsibility problem. Compromise, perhaps? A mid-treatment eval, with goals to be met, failing such, you are dumped from the program? Just a thought. I'm open to valid, workable solutions. Does mine sound OK? Thanks, Joe
quote:Originally posted by givette
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
quote:Originally posted by givette
To ECC's response to Sav99's post:
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
sensible post with real world knowledge thrown in for good measure. Now that you have laid it out there, let me ask you a question. Who's responsibility is it to support these people while they break their habit, even if they exhibit no desire to do so? Should the tax payer be held responsible for the addiction, or use of such to garn a paid existence on the hard work and toil of those who do have the strength to break their addictive habits, or never form them?
Dunno. Honestly. I can't answer the responsibility problem. Compromise, perhaps? A mid-treatment eval, with goals to be met, failing such, you are dumped from the program? Just a thought. I'm open to valid, workable solutions. Does mine sound OK? Thanks, Joe
Joe, I am a hard person on these subjects, and as such the wrong person to ask, which is why I asked you. I am unyielding in my quest for personal responsibility, and as such do not believe that there is any foul on the part of hard working men and women to support people who are not of their own family.
My true belief is that once things are recognized by the government, and listed as being a "disability" people flock out of the woodshed to exploit them. If it is not given credence and acknowledgement by the gov, and therefore no benefits are given the problem never balloons.
Someone more compassionate than I on government funding needs to answer your question as i do not believe in government funding for ANY entitlement except for those injured in service to this country
Givette, in response to your answer, I have a question. Was it anything anyone said or did that made you/helped you quit? This is one of the reasons I left counseling. I began to think there was nothing I could say or do that would help a person. Sure, I could say all the correct things, do all the the listening to what was going on in a person's life, offer advice, empathize with the desires for the destructive behavior/gratification, etc., yet when push came to shove, nothing I said or did seemed to make any difference until my client decided he or she wanted to quit.
This was what I could not do. I could not make that decision for that person. No one could. Interventions, counseling sessions, nothing helped, not until the person decided to quit. Once they made that decision I could be there for them, but until then, nothing I did mattered one whit.
Goes back to the old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Until the addict was thirsty enough for sobriety, nothing I did would matter. I became frustrated with the system and the enabling going on in the counseling field, so when we PCS'd to Georgia, I did not attempt to re-enter the counseling field.
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
Thanks, Tod. My sister is morbidly obese, and thusly, I look upon her with a "compassionate eye". I was focused on family..and as she doesn't collect any Gov't funding, the thought of beaurocratic subsidy never entered my thoughts while I was posting above.
I can see your point vis-a-vis having to pay for it. Best, Joe
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
May I answer?
While it is true that I am not perfect, nor have I ever professed to being such, I do not cost the taxpayers a dime, infact I pay in a crap load of money that I will never see. I never made an issue with overweight people, but I do with obese people on the payroll of the fed gov.
yes, if you are so large that you are going to intrude upon the space of the person sitting next to you in a airplane you should have to buy two seats. it is not their fault that you are large shouldered, nor should they have heir space intruded on by it.
I am not exactly skinny, by any means. However, I can walk and maintain myself. I was at wallyworld the other day (pretty rare for me to be caught there, muchless admit it on a public forum).
Anyways, big bertha was coming down the way running top speed (about .5 mph) on her cart that was well beyond it's load capacity and she is eating a king size Reeces Peanut Butter Cups.
Imagine that! Funny how they have no problem wagging that fat * in the front door to get to those carts. If they really needed a cart, would they not call ahead and have it waiting for them when they arrived?? lol
quote:Goes back to the old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Until the addict was thirsty enough for sobriety, nothing I did would matter. I became frustrated with the system and the enabling going on in the counseling field, so when we PCS'd to Georgia, I did not attempt to re-enter the counseling field.
Gave up drinking(Sort of have one drink every month or so) and smoking in 1990. You will never stop till you really want to. Had a heart attack. For me that was the light goes on moment.
Have a good friend who I served with in the Marines. He has lost about everything to the booze. But he still keeps going. Not sure what it will take for him. Most of his old friend have stopped going over(Me included) its hard to be around somebody you see drinking himself to death.
To Susie: I'll help unscramble what happened to me, in a chronolical cadence, as it were..you'll be best able to do "an eval" on me that way. I have no problem with it. Here goes:
I'm a live alone person. Fell into the bottle for many years to "wile away the time". Working drunk..well not exactly, as my job required zero substance in my blood (Federal air traffic controller). And, no, I wasn't escaping from the pressure-cooker of the job. I rather liked the challenge. It was the aloneness at night, I suppose.
Now, retirement: No job. Booze. Wile-ing my time away 24/7 with what I used to do after work to wile the time away. Lasted a year, then decided to sell my properties, and move in with my mom/sister up here in the mountains (Catskill mountains-NY).
Total change of venue..and so I stopped boozing. Suddenly. Came to a halt like a set of Bendix air-brakes. The total change of venue was so complete, so overwhelming that I didn't notice the lack of chemical intake. (My sister, I found out later, told my mom that she noticed my hands shaking when I came up to live with them initially)..stressing here that I didn't, or wasn't aware of any withdrawal.
Could I have used the "substitution principle" in my psych? Wile-ing my time with other things? At this end, I don't know. With the exception of Easter/Christmas stiff belts of booze (one big stiff belt-no more), I've been totally abstinent. And I don't muse on the "good ol' days" of stupor.
Opinion (physical): My having to be "clean" over and over and over for the workplace each day may have been a factor in my getting "clean", only for a much longer time..in this case, many years (since coming to live with family).
Opinion (psych-emotional):Your call. Substitution? (Sweets-I like them now, didn't before), or since I knew no boozing with my mom/sister, that I ended it? Could it be regarded as having committed suicide several years ago on a part of my inner self? Where I killed it? It's beyond my ken. Am I a routine case-study? Who knows.
All items above are for you, Susie, as I tried to relate to the best of my ability. A plus to all this is if, by slight chance, my ramblings were able to reinforce your decision to have left the system all so long ago, if such reinforcement be needed, that is.
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
I have not commented here but, well said Kodiak. No matter what is said here and whether a person has any control over his/her weight problem this thread is making over weight persons feel badly, much judging is going on, don't judge lest ye be judged.
This damn subject has been harped on damn long enough and is an embarrassment to the forum, not because of over weight persons, because of the bashing going on.
I work two jobs to support a family and put a wife through college, by weeks end I am wore out, slept most of the day, am I a lazy * for that ?? Have any of you ever been addicted to anything? Alcohol,prescription drugs, porn, sex, idolatry etc.etc.?
A good friend of mine is obese and has trouble walking, I have eaten with him many times, and I eat much ,much, more than he does but I am skinny in comparison. Everyones metabolism is different. Peoples upbringing is a huge factor in how they will act for the rest of their lives and the decisions they will make. Christianity was my way of changing bad habits.
Yes some may abuse the system making the ones that need actual assistance look bad, we all get it now, got it !?
I will not comment any further on this!
Givette, thanks for the insight. I won't try to analyze your change in behavior as it would take more than just a few words on a computer screen. Yet, it does put my mind at ease as to my choice that I made. I didn't leave the field because my clients were crazy, I left because the counselors were.[V] Not to say that therapy is bad, just that no one person can change another's behavior until that person was ready for change.
I think everyone has the right ot be a big stinking fat glop of yuck! But they should not expect others to provide them with the things they need to survive.
If you are SO FAT you need a cart to move you, you have problems! You need to do something about it other than expect people to accept you and coddle you. Get as mad as you like, but the fact is you are the problem, but you seem to think everyone else is the problem.
If you are happy weighing more than some of the largest mamals on the earth, why would a silly thread like this bother you?
quote:Originally posted by thermonuclear
I think everyone has the right ot be a big stinking fat glop of yuck! But they should not expect others to provide them with the things they need to survive.
I agree, however where I disagree is people flapping their gums at them and taking shots when they don't walk in the others shoes. Who the hell do some people think they are to cast judgement on others. Just being fat is not hurting others. Folks need to stop acting like it does because if someone was to dig into their lives they have commited far worse offenses that could of hugely affect others. For instance driving drunk whether you got caught or not. Everyone has skeletons, some just are more exposed to the public then others.
quote:Originally posted by susie
Givette, thanks for the insight. I won't try to analyze your change in behavior as it would take more than just a few words on a computer screen. Yet, it does put my mind at ease as to my choice that I made. I didn't leave the field because my clients were crazy, I left because the counselors were.[V] Not to say that therapy is bad, just that no one person can change another's behavior until that person was ready for change.
Well, since I did it all without professional help, do you think follow-up counselling is warranted? What I mean is, if the mechanics of my becoming sober was do to a "substitution", it's not as good as a total abatement of what caused [the problem] in the first place. In the case of substitution, the "need" is still there, only it has been satisfied by something else. Any input? Best again, Joe
Joe, nope, no need for any type of follow-up. My point is that when it comes to addictive behaviors I don't really know if counseling is very beneficial. We all have something we do that gives us pleasure. When the pleasure we seek is self-destructive that is when it is a problem. In today's society some of these behaviors are viewed as addictions to be abandoned, some of these behaviors are looked upon favorably. A stamp collector who spends all of their leisure time in the pursuit of the next rare stamp, cataloging stamps acuired, reading about stamp collecting, etc. is just pursuing a hobby. What really differentiates this from any other addictive behavior other than how society views it?
Some of us, I believe are gunbroker addicts.
Any behavior when carried to excess can be self-destructive. If you have traded a self-destructive behavior for one that does not threaten life, limb, or health there is no harm.
I love to read. Seemingly a benign activity, yet, if I bought every book I read and ALL the books I want, it would be so costly as to begin to impact my lifestyle. I have a library card and use it extensively to combat overspending on books. Destructive behavior is when I read at work during my lunch hour and can't seem to stop after lunch is finished. Should be working, not reading. Also, when we lived in Atlanta I would carry a book to read when stuck in traffic. I stopped this when I realized how easy it would be to read and drive (very stupid thinking on my part, but it was a thought).
So, my point is you aren't really substituting one addiction for another, you have found something that gives you pleasure without harming your body. Unless your new found love of sweets has you putting on a mask and doing a drive by at the local 7-11 for a quick fix.
Joe, if I may comment on your previous post, substituting (switching drug of choice) does often occur. Food addicts for example, once they get their over eating under control often times start using alcohol in excess. Opiate addicts will sometimes switch to cocaine use. I'm not sure what you are substituting, if anything, but it would have to get you high just as the booze did in order to actually be a substitute. Not to mention the presence of the THIQ in the alcoholic's brain.
You should indeed get counseling in my opinion. I've been through it and it was great. Remember this, an addict is an addict before they ever take that first drink or drug. There were reasons why I became an addict, and it was fascinating to discover what they were. Then I could go back and face the causes and overcome them. Addiction is not a moral deficiency, it a symptom of underlying unresolved emotional issues. The use of the drug/booze/what ever is an attempt to alleviate the chronic discomfort or pain of those issues.
One more comment about obese people, in women that suffer food addictions, approximately 90% of them have been victimized as children. What you are looking at when you see an obese woman is most often the result of the handy work of some pervert years ago. This is how they are attempting to deal with that pain. I'm not sure the percentage for men, I know for women though it's around 90%.
Emotions are very profound, and men like us would prefer to imagine that we don't really have too many of them. Truth of the matter is, we all do, and the human psyche' is very complicated thing.
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
For crying out loud Kodiakk.
I am no stick person myself. I have broad shoulders too. I have many of the same problems you do. Shirts not fitting does not apply however.
I have a serious issue with people touching me. I don't like it in the least. Perhaps you don't mind some fat persons rolls laying on you, but I do. I do not like my space being invaded. And yes, those morbidly obese people OUGHT to be buying TWO seats. I have been around a few morbidly obese people. They can't clean themsleves well either, as their mass is larger than their arms can reach. I don't want someone's BO or bacteria rubbed on me.
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
Good post. A smoker dosen't smoke in my face? Fine, but he still stinks like smoke and I have to sit there and smell that.
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
quote:Originally posted by drobs
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
I take two things from your post.
1. You pay taxes, so the government should give you freebies. Never mind all the services your taxes pay for, you paid X in taxes, you feel entitled to get 100 times that back.
2. Whatever anyone does, should be ok. Invading your personal space is all good. So next time your on a plane, a smoker can light up and pollute your air, right? After all they paid for a ticket just like you did. When your own personal choices affect other people around you, nobody should gripe.
To Sav99: Thanks for the input. I've been out of the boozing picture for several years. Completely. When I mentioned to Suzie if I should seek conselling, it was, in effect to re-inforce my conviction that it is no longer necessary. And she agreed.
To clarify (sorry if I wasn't clear earlier) the root cause, as best as I can determine was my lifestyle. The new lifestyle I've chosen to follow is the substitution. Not alternate drugs, etc.
It wasn't a chemical replacement. I went directly to the cause..the psych root cause, and I've eliminated it.
quote:Originally posted by freemind
quote:Originally posted by drobs
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
I take two things from your post.
1. You pay taxes, so the government should give you freebies. Never mind all the services your taxes pay for, you paid X in taxes, you feel entitled to get 100 times that back.
I'm paying for it, I'm going to use it. I work for a living. I just paid the government $3500 in taxes on my last 2 pay checks.
2. Whatever anyone does, should be ok. Invading your personal space is all good.
You pay for coach you get stuck with fat, ugly, smelly people, want more room, pay for 1st class. See capitalism in action!
So next time your on a plane, a smoker can light up and pollute your air, right?
Smoking is banned on airplanes, punishable by fines and arest, but I would pay more to be able to smoke on an airplane. Capitalism again.
After all they paid for a ticket just like you did. When your own personal choices affect other people around you, nobody should gripe.
Don't like it? Pay more for a roomier seat in 1st class. Capitalism once again. Can't afford 1st class? Tough____ flying isn't a right.
quote:Originally posted by drobs
quote:Originally posted by freemind
quote:Originally posted by drobs
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
I take two things from your post.
1. You pay taxes, so the government should give you freebies. Never mind all the services your taxes pay for, you paid X in taxes, you feel entitled to get 100 times that back.
I'm paying for it, I'm going to use it. I work for a living. I just paid the government $3500 in taxes on my last 2 pay checks.
2. Whatever anyone does, should be ok. Invading your personal space is all good.
You pay for coach you get stuck with fat, ugly, smelly people, want more room, pay for 1st class. See capitalism in action!
So next time your on a plane, a smoker can light up and pollute your air, right?
Smoking is banned on airplanes, punishable by fines and arest, but I would pay more to be able to smoke on an airplane. Capitalism again.
After all they paid for a ticket just like you did. When your own personal choices affect other people around you, nobody should gripe.
Don't like it? Pay more for a roomier seat in 1st class. Capitalism once again. Can't afford 1st class? Tough____ flying isn't a right.
that is well and good but the flying trash can i.e. embraer does not offer first class, nor do ANY of the smaller planes. Nice dodge at being responsible for your own actions and not interfering with others in the process.
Comments
See,......all I had to do was mention boobs, and butt tats![:0][:D]
...works for me![:D]
Many people who are not obese have a measure of antipathy towards those who are morbidly obese. Alcohol addicts, gambling addicts etc. are more readily excepted in society than are food addicts. For some reason many people, including many here, just don't like them. No reason to be bother by them really though, at 400 pounds or so they are living on borrowed time and will be dead before too long.
my guess is that you can't pick out the gambling addicts, alcoholics, and some drug addicts out of the crowd. they look like everyone else. Morbidly obese stick out.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
Doug
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
I believe I will find a better use of my time, like looking at the pics of your wife's boobs,
I think that's a type of fat we can all rally 'round. [:)]
Anyone have the link to that thread?
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
I believe I will find a better use of my time, like looking at the pics of your wife's boobs,
I think that's a type of fat we can all rally 'round. [:)]
Anyone have the link to that thread?
...it got poofed for some reason or another...
...it got poofed for some reason or another...
Always a day late and a dollar short.....*sigh*
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
Eric I agree that recovery is a choice. Millions upon millions of addicts in America need a recovery program. Food addicts included.
I'm just taking aback at the lack of compassion that some here have for the dieing. That's all.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
Eric I agree that recovery is a choice. Millions upon millions of addicts in America need a recovery program. Food addicts included.
I'm just taking aback at the lack of compassion that some here have for the dieing. That's all.
We are all dying...a physical death, that is.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by sav99
Many of you people are missing the key point that leads to obesity. A 400 pound person does not get to that size because they really like to eat. No more than an alcoholic becomes the wreck they are because they get really thirsty. It's an addiction, and has the same effect on brain chemistry for the food addicted person that alcohol or drugs or gambling has on the other type of addicts.
Trying to take away the high calorie, high fat, and high sugar foods and giving them non fattening food is like taking booze away from an alcoholic and giving him tomato juice thinking that will solve his drinking problem.
Addiction is addiction, makes no difference what the drug of choice is, be it booze, pot, cocaine, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it's still an addiction.
Is such an obvious fact really so damn difficult to comprehend?
It's still a choice. I once smoked. I no longer do.
Eric I agree that recovery is a choice. Millions upon millions of addicts in America need a recovery program. Food addicts included.
I'm just taking aback at the lack of compassion that some here have for the dieing. That's all.
Compasion? For people who knowingly destroy their bodies?
I have no compasion for idiocy. If I get cancer and die, I want no compasion for me poisioning MY body. I make choices. They make choices.
I think the big problems some have with obese people are:
Any that are on taxpayer monies.
Those that encroach our space, like on an airplane.
Those that want us to accept their disease, while they continue to kill themselves at someone else's expense.
Those that use their disease as an excuse to do NOTHING.
The large majority of obese people have obese children, furthering the problem.
I, as a young fella, had one doosey of a food "disease". I was fat. I overcame that, because I WANTED to. Most, not all, fat people relish in their food addictions. ( I myself love to smoke. I will stop the day I die)
I, as a smoker, am not allowed to smoke in certain places. Fat people have no such restrictions.
I can't smoke on a plane, but the tubby next to me is allowed to hang their fat rolls in my space.
We are supposed to respect other people, but some people are allowed to not respect us. If we raise cain about the fat guy on the plane, we are terrible people.
I have a degree in psychology, worked for years in what was the Army ADACP (substance abuse program), and did contract work as an addictive disorders specialist. I saw my share of different substances abused, the "reasoning" behind why some "chose" the lifestyle they led and here is my take on the issue.
Let me caveat this by stating I left the field. I could no longer reconcile what I saw with what I was supposed to do. I lost empathy with a majority of my clients. In the beginning I could be a good counselor, helping those who wanted to be helped. As substance abuse counseling became more mainstream and all the rage, it became "PC" to coddle abusers as victims of their environment, thus enabling the abusers and dismissing their responsibility for their actions.
Addiction recovery is a choice. Once an abuser/addict chooses to seek help, recovery is possible. Until that choice is made, nothing anyone can do will help the addict.
In this new day and age addicts/abusers are coddled and removed from responsibility for their actions. Ask any AA member and they will tell you that you have to want recovery more than you want the addictive behavior. Until then, never mind.
Instant gratification has become the American lifestyle and damn the consequences. If you suffer, blame your genes, your parents, the school, the system. Anyone but yourself.
Recovery is a personal decision only the addict can make. Food is no different. Yes, the one difference is we must all eat to survive. Yet, moderation in all things is a must. Diet programs where a person orders their meals to control caloric intake is just another form of not taking responsibility for behavior. Ask anyone who has lost weight in a healthy way. It was through good diet and exercise, no gimmicks, no quick fixes. Making a choice and taking control of their behavior and lifestyle led to a healthy change.
I come from a long line of short fat folks. I'm 5 feet tall in my stocking feet and I am pushing 135 lbs right now and in the process of changing some habits. Some might say, not bad, but it is because a pound here and a pound there add up to where my Mom was at 4"11" and 245 lbs. I have to watch what I eat and what I do. The hubbie is currently TDY and I have been indulging in "feel good foods" and have slacked off in the work out department. So in three months I've gained ten pounds. I "know" what is causing the weight gain, but have yet to decide how bad I want to give up the Oreos for a work out. My choice, no one elses fault.
So, when a person chooses an unhealthy lifestyle they suffer the consequences. When that lifestyle choice puts them on the government teat they have left the realm of endangering just their bodies to dipping in to my wallet. Why is their lack of responsibility now a burden on me? I am hamstrung by the tax and spend system that uses my money to buy their vote.
So, if a person did not have a pre-existing health condition that contributed to obesity, their bad choices left them where they are, choices, not circumstances, not society, not you and not me. Eat a grape or eat a cake, that is a choice. The decision is up to the individual.
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
To ECC's response to Sav99's post:
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
sensible post with real world knowledge thrown in for good measure. Now that you have laid it out there, let me ask you a question. Who's responsibility is it to support these people while they break their habit, even if they exhibit no desire to do so? Should the tax payer be held responsible for the addiction, or use of such to garn a paid existence on the hard work and toil of those who do have the strength to break their addictive habits, or never form them?
quote:Originally posted by givette
To ECC's response to Sav99's post:
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
sensible post with real world knowledge thrown in for good measure. Now that you have laid it out there, let me ask you a question. Who's responsibility is it to support these people while they break their habit, even if they exhibit no desire to do so? Should the tax payer be held responsible for the addiction, or use of such to garn a paid existence on the hard work and toil of those who do have the strength to break their addictive habits, or never form them?
Dunno. Honestly. I can't answer the responsibility problem. Compromise, perhaps? A mid-treatment eval, with goals to be met, failing such, you are dumped from the program? Just a thought. I'm open to valid, workable solutions. Does mine sound OK? Thanks, Joe
quote:Originally posted by Todesengel
quote:Originally posted by givette
To ECC's response to Sav99's post:
The morbidly obese have a psychological problem. It's a disease. The "I was an [insert substance] addict, and I stopped". Is not the best (kindest?) approach.
All you are saying is that you happen to have steeled yourself, and been strong enough to overcome. Doesn't happen to everybody. Doesn't happen overnight. Yes, compassion to those less fortunate than you, who can not find the strength to overcome, is paramount! It's in the Good Book!!
..and I agree with you, ECC on one aspect..I was a moribund alcoholic. Drank for thirty years. When I retired, I drank over three of those two liter bottles of Jack Daniels' per week. I'd get up, and go right to the booze. No breakfast. Drink 'till about 4:PM, then collapse. Next day, same thing. For over a year.
Now, I stopped, like ECC quit. Does anybody think ECC's quitting was as gut-wrenchingly difficult as mine? Think about it.
Bottom line: Show compassion to those whom are not fortunate enough to have the stay-power as ECC (and me), who psychologically are unable to cope.
In the scope of this post, I have the greatest credentials to say "I quit, so everyone can quit"..but I choose not to. Joe
sensible post with real world knowledge thrown in for good measure. Now that you have laid it out there, let me ask you a question. Who's responsibility is it to support these people while they break their habit, even if they exhibit no desire to do so? Should the tax payer be held responsible for the addiction, or use of such to garn a paid existence on the hard work and toil of those who do have the strength to break their addictive habits, or never form them?
Dunno. Honestly. I can't answer the responsibility problem. Compromise, perhaps? A mid-treatment eval, with goals to be met, failing such, you are dumped from the program? Just a thought. I'm open to valid, workable solutions. Does mine sound OK? Thanks, Joe
Joe, I am a hard person on these subjects, and as such the wrong person to ask, which is why I asked you. I am unyielding in my quest for personal responsibility, and as such do not believe that there is any foul on the part of hard working men and women to support people who are not of their own family.
My true belief is that once things are recognized by the government, and listed as being a "disability" people flock out of the woodshed to exploit them. If it is not given credence and acknowledgement by the gov, and therefore no benefits are given the problem never balloons.
Someone more compassionate than I on government funding needs to answer your question as i do not believe in government funding for ANY entitlement except for those injured in service to this country
This was what I could not do. I could not make that decision for that person. No one could. Interventions, counseling sessions, nothing helped, not until the person decided to quit. Once they made that decision I could be there for them, but until then, nothing I did mattered one whit.
Goes back to the old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Until the addict was thirsty enough for sobriety, nothing I did would matter. I became frustrated with the system and the enabling going on in the counseling field, so when we PCS'd to Georgia, I did not attempt to re-enter the counseling field.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
I can see your point vis-a-vis having to pay for it. Best, Joe
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
May I answer?
While it is true that I am not perfect, nor have I ever professed to being such, I do not cost the taxpayers a dime, infact I pay in a crap load of money that I will never see. I never made an issue with overweight people, but I do with obese people on the payroll of the fed gov.
yes, if you are so large that you are going to intrude upon the space of the person sitting next to you in a airplane you should have to buy two seats. it is not their fault that you are large shouldered, nor should they have heir space intruded on by it.
Anyways, big bertha was coming down the way running top speed (about .5 mph) on her cart that was well beyond it's load capacity and she is eating a king size Reeces Peanut Butter Cups.
Imagine that! Funny how they have no problem wagging that fat * in the front door to get to those carts. If they really needed a cart, would they not call ahead and have it waiting for them when they arrived??
Gave up drinking(Sort of have one drink every month or so) and smoking in 1990. You will never stop till you really want to. Had a heart attack. For me that was the light goes on moment.
Have a good friend who I served with in the Marines. He has lost about everything to the booze. But he still keeps going. Not sure what it will take for him. Most of his old friend have stopped going over(Me included) its hard to be around somebody you see drinking himself to death.
I'm a live alone person. Fell into the bottle for many years to "wile away the time". Working drunk..well not exactly, as my job required zero substance in my blood (Federal air traffic controller). And, no, I wasn't escaping from the pressure-cooker of the job. I rather liked the challenge. It was the aloneness at night, I suppose.
Now, retirement: No job. Booze. Wile-ing my time away 24/7 with what I used to do after work to wile the time away. Lasted a year, then decided to sell my properties, and move in with my mom/sister up here in the mountains (Catskill mountains-NY).
Total change of venue..and so I stopped boozing. Suddenly. Came to a halt like a set of Bendix air-brakes. The total change of venue was so complete, so overwhelming that I didn't notice the lack of chemical intake. (My sister, I found out later, told my mom that she noticed my hands shaking when I came up to live with them initially)..stressing here that I didn't, or wasn't aware of any withdrawal.
Could I have used the "substitution principle" in my psych? Wile-ing my time with other things? At this end, I don't know. With the exception of Easter/Christmas stiff belts of booze (one big stiff belt-no more), I've been totally abstinent. And I don't muse on the "good ol' days" of stupor.
Opinion (physical): My having to be "clean" over and over and over for the workplace each day may have been a factor in my getting "clean", only for a much longer time..in this case, many years (since coming to live with family).
Opinion (psych-emotional):Your call. Substitution? (Sweets-I like them now, didn't before), or since I knew no boozing with my mom/sister, that I ended it? Could it be regarded as having committed suicide several years ago on a part of my inner self? Where I killed it? It's beyond my ken. Am I a routine case-study? Who knows.
All items above are for you, Susie, as I tried to relate to the best of my ability. A plus to all this is if, by slight chance, my ramblings were able to reinforce your decision to have left the system all so long ago, if such reinforcement be needed, that is.
Best to you, Joe
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
I have not commented here but, well said Kodiak. No matter what is said here and whether a person has any control over his/her weight problem this thread is making over weight persons feel badly, much judging is going on, don't judge lest ye be judged.
This damn subject has been harped on damn long enough and is an embarrassment to the forum, not because of over weight persons, because of the bashing going on.
I work two jobs to support a family and put a wife through college, by weeks end I am wore out, slept most of the day, am I a lazy * for that ?? Have any of you ever been addicted to anything? Alcohol,prescription drugs, porn, sex, idolatry etc.etc.?
A good friend of mine is obese and has trouble walking, I have eaten with him many times, and I eat much ,much, more than he does but I am skinny in comparison. Everyones metabolism is different. Peoples upbringing is a huge factor in how they will act for the rest of their lives and the decisions they will make. Christianity was my way of changing bad habits.
Yes some may abuse the system making the ones that need actual assistance look bad, we all get it now, got it !?
I will not comment any further on this!
If you are SO FAT you need a cart to move you, you have problems! You need to do something about it other than expect people to accept you and coddle you. Get as mad as you like, but the fact is you are the problem, but you seem to think everyone else is the problem.
If you are happy weighing more than some of the largest mamals on the earth, why would a silly thread like this bother you?
I think everyone has the right ot be a big stinking fat glop of yuck! But they should not expect others to provide them with the things they need to survive.
I agree, however where I disagree is people flapping their gums at them and taking shots when they don't walk in the others shoes. Who the hell do some people think they are to cast judgement on others. Just being fat is not hurting others. Folks need to stop acting like it does because if someone was to dig into their lives they have commited far worse offenses that could of hugely affect others. For instance driving drunk whether you got caught or not. Everyone has skeletons, some just are more exposed to the public then others.
Givette, thanks for the insight. I won't try to analyze your change in behavior as it would take more than just a few words on a computer screen. Yet, it does put my mind at ease as to my choice that I made. I didn't leave the field because my clients were crazy, I left because the counselors were.[V] Not to say that therapy is bad, just that no one person can change another's behavior until that person was ready for change.
Well, since I did it all without professional help, do you think follow-up counselling is warranted? What I mean is, if the mechanics of my becoming sober was do to a "substitution", it's not as good as a total abatement of what caused [the problem] in the first place. In the case of substitution, the "need" is still there, only it has been satisfied by something else. Any input? Best again, Joe
Some of us, I believe are gunbroker addicts.
Any behavior when carried to excess can be self-destructive. If you have traded a self-destructive behavior for one that does not threaten life, limb, or health there is no harm.
I love to read. Seemingly a benign activity, yet, if I bought every book I read and ALL the books I want, it would be so costly as to begin to impact my lifestyle. I have a library card and use it extensively to combat overspending on books. Destructive behavior is when I read at work during my lunch hour and can't seem to stop after lunch is finished. Should be working, not reading. Also, when we lived in Atlanta I would carry a book to read when stuck in traffic. I stopped this when I realized how easy it would be to read and drive (very stupid thinking on my part, but it was a thought).
So, my point is you aren't really substituting one addiction for another, you have found something that gives you pleasure without harming your body. Unless your new found love of sweets has you putting on a mask and doing a drive by at the local 7-11 for a quick fix.
You should indeed get counseling in my opinion. I've been through it and it was great. Remember this, an addict is an addict before they ever take that first drink or drug. There were reasons why I became an addict, and it was fascinating to discover what they were. Then I could go back and face the causes and overcome them. Addiction is not a moral deficiency, it a symptom of underlying unresolved emotional issues. The use of the drug/booze/what ever is an attempt to alleviate the chronic discomfort or pain of those issues.
One more comment about obese people, in women that suffer food addictions, approximately 90% of them have been victimized as children. What you are looking at when you see an obese woman is most often the result of the handy work of some pervert years ago. This is how they are attempting to deal with that pain. I'm not sure the percentage for men, I know for women though it's around 90%.
Emotions are very profound, and men like us would prefer to imagine that we don't really have too many of them. Truth of the matter is, we all do, and the human psyche' is very complicated thing.
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
For crying out loud Kodiakk.
I am no stick person myself. I have broad shoulders too. I have many of the same problems you do. Shirts not fitting does not apply however.
I have a serious issue with people touching me. I don't like it in the least. Perhaps you don't mind some fat persons rolls laying on you, but I do. I do not like my space being invaded. And yes, those morbidly obese people OUGHT to be buying TWO seats. I have been around a few morbidly obese people. They can't clean themsleves well either, as their mass is larger than their arms can reach. I don't want someone's BO or bacteria rubbed on me.
This thread is like going back and watching kids pick on the fat kid in elementry. Then watching the fat kid try and defend himself. All around sickening and truly sad in my opinion.
For folks like myself that don't fit the mold life gets annoying at times. I consider myself fat, but that's not my problem. I have a hard time finding shirts and such since my shoulders are broad and I'm tall. Either I wear regular sizes that fit me like a glove, or I buy shirts made for heavy people that fit me like a bell. I have alot of issues with cars. Most cars my knees are up around my ears trying to fit in them.
I have a question for Freemind though. When I get on a plane my waist is well within my seat however my shoulders go well into another persons seat. My legs sprawl all over even though I try to be polite and keep them in my area. Even if I got rail thin I would have these problems. Should I buy have to buy two seats?
Some folks need to live and let live. Others with biblical beleifs should think about the verse Jesus said about casting stones. There are alot of judgements getting thrown around. I think less should judge and sweep their own porch in all areas before looking at others. At least that's my mentality in life.
Good post. A smoker dosen't smoke in my face? Fine, but he still stinks like smoke and I have to sit there and smell that.
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
I take two things from your post.
1. You pay taxes, so the government should give you freebies. Never mind all the services your taxes pay for, you paid X in taxes, you feel entitled to get 100 times that back.
2. Whatever anyone does, should be ok. Invading your personal space is all good. So next time your on a plane, a smoker can light up and pollute your air, right? After all they paid for a ticket just like you did. When your own personal choices affect other people around you, nobody should gripe.
To clarify (sorry if I wasn't clear earlier) the root cause, as best as I can determine was my lifestyle. The new lifestyle I've chosen to follow is the substitution. Not alternate drugs, etc.
It wasn't a chemical replacement. I went directly to the cause..the psych root cause, and I've eliminated it.
Again, sorry if I wasn't clear earlier. Best, Joe
quote:Originally posted by drobs
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
I take two things from your post.
1. You pay taxes, so the government should give you freebies. Never mind all the services your taxes pay for, you paid X in taxes, you feel entitled to get 100 times that back.
I'm paying for it, I'm going to use it. I work for a living. I just paid the government $3500 in taxes on my last 2 pay checks.
2. Whatever anyone does, should be ok. Invading your personal space is all good.
You pay for coach you get stuck with fat, ugly, smelly people, want more room, pay for 1st class. See capitalism in action!
So next time your on a plane, a smoker can light up and pollute your air, right?
Smoking is banned on airplanes, punishable by fines and arest, but I would pay more to be able to smoke on an airplane. Capitalism again.
After all they paid for a ticket just like you did. When your own personal choices affect other people around you, nobody should gripe.
Don't like it? Pay more for a roomier seat in 1st class. Capitalism once again. Can't afford 1st class? Tough____ flying isn't a right.
quote:Originally posted by freemind
quote:Originally posted by drobs
Where does being fat and driving an electric cart = receiving welfare from our taxes?
Where does having a handicapped license plate = receiving welfare from our taxes?
My view is if I'm going to pay taxes all my fricken life, I want to get back as much of that money as possible. If I get handicapped and it would make my life easier with a handicapped license plate, I'll submit the forms required and pay the additional fee to get one.
If I can qualify for a HUD loan, I'm going for it. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Digital TV converter box $40 coupon, I used them. I've been working to pay taxes that pay for that crap.
Tax return, you better believe I'm going to get as much as legally possible back on my return.
MYOB and move on with your life. Worry about yourself.
Don't want a fat person encroaching on your seat on an airplane? Pay for 1st class! It's called coach for a reason.
On my flight over here in coach I got really comfortable with girl sitting next to me. I was tempted to ask for her phone number after that 14hr flight.
I believe that if I'm going to work and pay for crap, I can do whatever the ______ I want. I'm skinny but if I want to be fat that's my own business. Don't like it? Tough ______!
I take two things from your post.
1. You pay taxes, so the government should give you freebies. Never mind all the services your taxes pay for, you paid X in taxes, you feel entitled to get 100 times that back.
I'm paying for it, I'm going to use it. I work for a living. I just paid the government $3500 in taxes on my last 2 pay checks.
2. Whatever anyone does, should be ok. Invading your personal space is all good.
You pay for coach you get stuck with fat, ugly, smelly people, want more room, pay for 1st class. See capitalism in action!
So next time your on a plane, a smoker can light up and pollute your air, right?
Smoking is banned on airplanes, punishable by fines and arest, but I would pay more to be able to smoke on an airplane. Capitalism again.
After all they paid for a ticket just like you did. When your own personal choices affect other people around you, nobody should gripe.
Don't like it? Pay more for a roomier seat in 1st class. Capitalism once again. Can't afford 1st class? Tough____ flying isn't a right.
that is well and good but the flying trash can i.e. embraer does not offer first class, nor do ANY of the smaller planes. Nice dodge at being responsible for your own actions and not interfering with others in the process.