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Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
Bert H.
Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Comments
I have a 1950 WCF but I believe it's over 2 mil. I'll check and let you know if you wish?
Yes, please check it.
If the serial number is over 2 million, it was not manufactured before 1953.
WACA Historian & Life Member
quote:Originally posted by Hunter Mag
I have a 1950 WCF but I believe it's over 2 mil. I'll check and let you know if you wish?
Yes, please check it.
If the serial number is over 2 million, it was not manufactured before 1953.
I will but I wount be back here till tuesday night.
After I made this post then checked you serial # info I remember I goofed. It is a 1950, cause when I bought it I checked the serial #. My memory is foggy(I'm getting old lol)on the serial # though.
I'll definitely let you know.
Bert the serial # is 1,647,9xx.
If you do not mind, please send the complete serial number to me at Win1885@msn.com Your Carbine was manufactured in late 1949 just before Winchester changed the caliber stamp to "30 - 30 WIN."
WACA Historian & Life Member
I saw photos of a flat band 94 without any markings on the upper tang. Is that a 40s manufactured 94, or did someone take a post 50 Model 94 and put a flat band on it?
I have a Model 94 at home with a 1,9XX,XXX or a 1,6XX,XXX serial number on it. I will check it tonight and get the actual serial number. What features do want to know about? (I think it is 1,96X,XXX)
Are all of the 94s, marked "30 WCF" also marked on the upper tang (either with "Winchester trademark Made in USA" or "Winchester Model...")? In other words, do all of the "30 WCF" 94s have writing on the upper tang, while those marked "30-30 Win" have plain, unmarked, upper tangs?
I saw photos of a flat band 94 without any markings on the upper tang. Is that a 40s manufactured 94, or did someone take a post 50 Model 94 and put a flat band on it?
I have a Model 94 at home with a 1,9XX,XXX or a 1,6XX,XXX serial number on it. I will check it tonight and get the actual serial number. What features do want to know about? (I think it is 1,96X,XXX)
Hello Alan,
In answer to your first question, No, the late production "30 W.C.F." marked guns do not have any markings on the upper tang, nor is the tang drilled & tapped for a tang sight. Based on the information I have thus far, Winchester made the change from "30 W.C.F." to "30 - 30 WIN." in early 1950.
In answer to your second question, all of the "Flat-band" Carbines were manufactured in the years 1946 - 1948, and at least the later production have blank upper tangs.
In your last question, I am looking for the complete serial number, the exact caliber stamp, the specific type of butt plate, and if it is factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight.
WACA Historian & Life Member
If you decide to expand your investigation, (or, maybe you already know) I would like to know when, and what, markings are on the upper tang by date of manufacture. I know there are differences in wording.
By the way... I know a guy who has a 94, manufactured in either 1906 or 1916, saddle ring, with the fancy grade stock (checkered buttstock and forearm, fancy walnut) that is in mint condition. It looks like it is new in the box. He even has cardboard wrapped around the saddle ring so it won't bump against the receiver. There are absolutely no scratches, worn bluing, or other marks on the gun. Any idea what it might be worth, or do you need to see photos?
Thanks for the info.
If you decide to expand your investigation, (or, maybe you already know) I would like to know when, and what, markings are on the upper tang by date of manufacture. I know there are differences in wording.
Hello Alan,
Edit: New or updated information
Yes, I do know what & when the eight different styles of upper tang stamps are that were used throughout the production of the Model 1894/94.
The 1st style (Type 1) appears in the 1 - 15000 serial range and is as follows;
The 2nd style (Type 1A) was used from circa serial number 15000 - 225000 and is as follows;
The 3rd style (Type 2) was used from circa serial number 225000 - 450000 and is as follows;
The 4th style (Type 3) was used from circa serial number 450000 - 735000 and is as follows;
The 5th style (Type 4) was used from circa serial number 735000 - 900000 and is as follows;
The 6th style (Type 5) was used from circa serial number 900000 - 1020000 and is as follows;
The 7th style (Type 6) was used from circa serial number 1020000 - 1157000 and is as follows;
The 8th style (Type 7) was used from circa serial number 1150000 to 1342000 and is as follows;
After circa serial number 1342000, the upper tangs were deviod of any markings, and were no longer drilled & tapped for a tang sight.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Bert,
By the way... I know a guy who has a 94, manufactured in either 1906 or 1916, saddle ring, with the fancy grade stock (checkered buttstock and forearm, fancy walnut) that is in mint condition. It looks like it is new in the box. He even has cardboard wrapped around the saddle ring so it won't bump against the receiver. There are absolutely no scratches, worn bluing, or other marks on the gun. Any idea what it might be worth, or do you need to see photos?
Hello Alan,
It would help immensely to know what the serial number is, and to see pictures of it.
WACA Historian & Life Member
194984X
the exact caliber stamp:
30-30 WIN.
the specific type of butt plate:
Flat checkered
and if it is factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight.
Yes, two receiver screws. And one screw, unmarked tang.
I also have a 94, DOM around 1985, but I doubt you want any info from a post 64.
I will try to get photos of the old, mint condition, 94 and post them sometime.
In your last question, I am looking for the complete serial number:
1949843
the exact caliber stamp:
30-30 WIN.
the specific type of butt plate:
Flat checkered
and if it is factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight.
No (one screw, unmarked tang)
I also have a 94, DOM around 1985, but I doubt you want any info from a post 64.
I will try to get photos of the old, mint condition, 94 and post them sometime.
Thank you very much for the information. The serial number tells me that it was manufactured in the latter half of the year 1952.
You are correct about the 1985 vintage gun. I am specifically looking at all of the pre-1964 Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that are in the 1,000,000 to 2,700,000 serial number range.
I will look forward to seeing the pictures of that old mint condition SRC[:p].
WACA Historian & Life Member
Alright, let me see if I can figure out how to post photos. The Serial Number of the old 94 I told you about is: 659185
The following are photos (if this works):
Any idea what it might be worth? Like I said, there's not a scratch on it, and it has cardboard taped around the saddle ring so it does not bump the receiver. This gun is virtually NIB, 100%. My camera does not take good close ups. The writing is a lot sharper than it appears in the photos.
The DOM on that SRC is early 1914.
WACA Historian & Life Member
If it had been re-blued, what would it be worth?
If it is all original, what would it be worth?
It is not possible to get a Cody factory letter for any Model 1894 serial number that is greater than 353,999.
Whomever the owner had look at it, that person is quite apparently not very knowledgable about old Winchesters, and most especially the Model 1894.
The first clue that jumped right out at me, is the lever being blued versus color case hardened. The second big clue is the "off" color (with a purplish tint) of barrel... Winchester rust blued the barrels at that time. The next hint is the color of the bluing on the receiver frame... it is way too dark, and it looks suspiciously like hot salt (tank) bluing. Another clue is the fact that I can not see any sign of the Winchester factory proof mark on the top of the receiver frame ring. The next clue is the lack of sharp corners and edges on the receiver frame. The last obvious clue is the style of the stock carving & checkering... it does not match the known Winchester patterns.
Speculating on the value of a refinished old Winchester is of no useful purpose. While that old SRC may look real nice to the average person, it looks horrible to the wise old collectors who typically pay the big $$$$ for righteous guns... and that one is not.
In the very slim chance that I mis-judged the gun, can you post pictures of the Winchester proof mark stamp on the barrel and the frame ring? A clear picture of the top of the frame ring and barrel just above the caliber stamp will definitively answer the question about it being refinished.
WACA Historian & Life Member
I will try to get the additional pictures, but it may be a day or two before I can get them. I will try to borrow a macro lens so I can get some close-ups.
Thanks for the time you have spent on this.
Alan
p.s. I thought the stock might be original because the checkering looks similar to (but not exactly like) the checkering on a Model 95, illustrated on page 122 of R.L. Wilson's book Winchester An American Legend, but I have very, very little experience with old Winchesters, so I don't know much.
p.s. I thought the stock might be original because the checkering looks similar to (but not exactly like) the checkering on a Model 95, illustrated on page 122 of R.L. Wilson's book Winchester An American Legend, but I have very, very little experience with old Winchesters, so I don't know much.
That is exactly the problem... Winchester was extremely consistent with their checkering styles. If you look closely at original Winchester cut checkering, it always had a border cut... and the checkering on that Carbine does not have it. Additionally, the pattern is not correct.
It is always the minute details that trip up the "fakers" out there. They fortunately do not seem to understand the "fine" points that Winchester was very consistent about. There are a relatively small number of "Experts" that can instantly see and feel out what is original and what is not. It takes many years of practice and experience to aquire that skill.
WACA Historian & Life Member
I checked the proof marks today. Unfortunately, I don't have a camera that can take a close-up of them. They are there, but they are faint. They are certainly not as deep as the proof marks on my other Winchesters. You were correct. It appears to have been re-blued. Whoever did it did a very good job, but it is not original. I can only assume that the stock is a reproduction as well. Still, the stock is very nice, highly figured walnut. And the re-bluing job is very high quality. As a restoration... any idea what it might be worth?
No, not really.
I see more and more restorations for sale all the time, but at overly inflated prices, and they usually sit on the gunshow tables show after show after show. In the case of Gunbroker and similar ilk, they are relisted time after time after time. I have seen more than a few old Winchesters relisted over and over for more than 6-years.
The reality of the Winchester collecting fraternity is this... nobody really wants a refinished or restored gun (unless the restoration was accomplished by someone who is very well known, and it is priced fairly). The Model 1894 is just too commonly found in excellent (or better) orginal condition to ever be a good candidate for restoration, and I suspect that it will stay that way for a long time to come. Consider this fact... Winchester manufactured 2.6 million pre-1964 Model 1894/94s, and that is a lot of potentially collectable guns!
WACA Historian & Life Member
mine was made in 46 and it says-30wcf
Are you sure that it was made in 1946? With the serial number, I can confirm or correct the actual DOM. If it is a 1946 vintage Model 94, it should also be a flat-band gun... is it?
WACA Historian & Life Member
Hope this was of use to you. If you'd like a photo of anything I've described, I'll try to oblige. If you have any insight into the date of manufacture I'd appreciate it. Regards Jim
Hello, Bert. I have a Winchester model 64, serial number 1117418, which makes it pre-war. The caliber marking is 30 W. C. F. The steel butt plate has what looks like an "M" top with a smooth band around the edge of the plate and checkering inside the band. The bottom bolt is enclosed in a diamond. Yes, left side side of the receiver is drilled and tapped on the upper right area.
Hope this was of use to you. If you'd like a photo of anything I've described, I'll try to oblige. If you have any insight into the date of manufacture I'd appreciate it. Regards Jim
Hello Jim,
Your Model 94 64 was manufactured very late in the year 1936 (serial number 1119104 was the last one made in 1936).
The butt plate you describe is the type found on all of the Model 64s. and it is very rarely found on a Model 94. It should look like the one in the picture below. This same butt plate was also used on the Models 1897 and 70.
There is a definite possibility that you have a hybrid gun, but in order to determine that, I will need to see pictures of it. If possible, please post (or send me) pictures on the butt stock & byutt plate, and the left side side of the receiver frame.
WACA Historian & Life Member
model 94 serial #15805xx model 94 32w.s.
It would be really nice if you would provide the complete serial number.
Based on the partial serial number, your Model 94 was manufactured very late in the year 1948. The caliber stamp is correct, and it should have a checkered steel butt plate, with no holes drilled & tapped in the receiver frame.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Hi, Bert. My post of 11-04 said I have a Model 64, etc. Your reply of same date says, "Your Model 94", etc. Please note, I have and wrote about my Model 64. Thanks Jim
Hello Jim,
I completely missed that fact[:I]... thank you for setting me straight!
Your Model 64 is perfectly normal, and the DOM is unchanged (late 1936).
WACA Historian & Life Member
model 94 serial #15805xx model 94 32w.s. Complete serial # is 1580554 checkered but plate no drill holes or taps
Thank you[:)].
Edit: The DOM is actually early 1949 versus late 1948.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Model 94 s/n 1,386,xxx 30wcf flat cross hatch butt plate no drill holes. Good luck[^]
The partial serial number tells me that it is an early 1946 vintage gun, and that it should have the flat style front barrel band. If you do not mind, please contact me at Win1885@msn.com with the complete serial number.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Bert- I have a model "94" 30-30 (that's how the barrel is marked) ser. # 2002341. I believe it's a 1953. Has rounded barrel band, & flat checkered steel butt plate. I didn't look last night specifically at whether it was factory drilled for a peep sight, but I don't think that it is. Tom
Hello Tom,
Thank you for the information. Based on my estimate, your Model 94 Carbine was manufactured mid year 1953. It should be drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight, as Winchester did so as a standard feature starting at circa serial number 1,920,000.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Bert- You were right. my reciever is pre-drilled for a sight. Tom
Thanks for the update[:)]
WACA Historian & Life Member