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Bert I have 2 - 94's (.30.30) in that serial range. I fowarded the info to you. Let me know what you need more and I'll be happy to provide...Thanks
Ron
Bert-My serial# on my 94 is 2561550-marked 30-30WIN-Full checkered flat butt plate-Factory drilled for peep. This gun has a fine checkered stockiIs fully engraved w/gold inlay of a bear on one side and a running stag on the other.Hope this helps you in small way.Also any information you may have would be appreciated.
Maybe this will help you out:
Model 55 Takedown Serial# 4948 1/2 Mag. Serrated shotgun butt 32W.S. Straight grip, 24"round barrel
Model 1894 SRC 30 WCF Serial# 1021928 Reg. carbine butt
Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 Serial# 2449298 milled band Shotgun checkered butt factory drilled for rec. sight
That is all I have in 94's near your serial# range.
I'll have a couple 64's information soon.
Good luck,
Ed
quote:Originally posted by texasmike
Bert-My serial# on my 94 is 2561550-marked 30-30WIN-Full checkered flat butt plate-Factory drilled for peep. This gun has a fine checkered stockiIs fully engraved w/gold inlay of a bear on one side and a running stag on the other.Hope this helps you in small way.Also any information you may have would be appreciated.
Thanks,Mike
Hello Mike,
At this point, all that I can tell you is that your Model 94 was manufactured in very late 1962. I can not confirm the authenticity of the engraving or deluxe features. If you can post (or send me) clear detailed pictures of the gun, I may be able to provide more information about the extras your Model 94 has.
quote:Originally posted by gearheaddad
Maybe this will help you out:
Model 55 Takedown Serial# 4948 1/2 Mag. Serrated shotgun butt 32W.S. Straight grip, 24"round barrel
Model 1894 SRC 30 WCF Serial# 1021928 Reg. carbine butt
Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 Serial# 2449298 milled band Shotgun checkered butt factory drilled for rec. sight
That is all I have in 94's near your serial# range.
I'll have a couple 64's information soon.
Good luck,
Ed
Hello Ed,
Thank you very much[:)].
1. Model 55 serial 4948 = 1926
2. Model 94 1021928 = 1928
3. Model 94 2449298 = 1960 (very late)
Bert I have 2 - 94's (.30.30) in that serial range. I fowarded the info to you. Let me know what you need more and I'll be happy to provide...Thanks
Ron
Win 94 Carb, SN 1247546, 1941:
32 WS
Serrated BP
Not D&T
Milled BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1432806, 1948:
32 WS
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1473334, 1948:
30 WCF
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1717918, 1951:
25-35 WIN
Flat checkered BP
Has receiver mounted peep sight, but location indicates that it may not be factory D&T'd (further towards rear of receiver than I believe factory holes would be)
Milled BB
My understanding is the gun headspaces on the rim, and with brass being mfg now the rim is thinner ie the headspace getting excess. I have seen some 94s at the range during sight ins where the primers are more than half way backed out. When I see that I ask that the gun not be shot on the range. Am I over reacting or is this a potential disaster?
Thanks for your insight and opinions,
JohnOriginally posted by Bert H.
OK, and on to your question & comments,
Unless that gun was shot a lot with hot handloads (and the receiver frame has strecthed), there should be no reason for the primers to be backing out. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in early 1955... a relatively young Model 94 by most standards.
Did you have your 'smith check the headspace? I find it doubtful that the barrel has been swapped, as it has the correct markings for the serial number vintage.
Speaking of the marking on your barrel, it should look just like this one...
quote:Originally posted by hclark
Win 94 Carb, SN 1247546, 1941: 1940 per the PRSB
32 WS
Serrated BP
Not D&T
Milled BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1432806, 1948: 1947
32 WS
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1473334, 1948: Early 1948
30 WCF
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1717918, 1951: 1950
25-35 WIN
Flat checkered BP
Has receiver mounted peep sight, but location indicates that it may not be factory D&T'd (further towards rear of receiver than I believe factory holes would be)
Milled BB
Thank you very much for the information[:)].
I have several follow up questions for you...
1. Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?
2. Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."?
3. If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?
quote:Originally posted by 44smokeless
My understanding is the gun headspaces on the rim, and with brass being mfg now the rim is thinner ie the headspace getting excess. I have seen some 94s at the range during sight ins where the primers are more than half way backed out. When I see that I ask that the gun not be shot on the range. Am I over reacting or is this a potential disaster?
Thanks for your insight and opinions,
John
I would recommend trying a different brand of factory ammo. The 30-30 does indeed headspace on the rim, and if the ammo being shot has an overly thin rim, I would also suspect that you would be experiencing misfires. What does the firing pin indentation look like?
Bert:
I added some info that you might find interesting in blue print.
1. "Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?" Yes, on flat part of receiver below the SN.
2. "Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."? 25-35 WIN.
3. "If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?"
SN 1247546; 40 32WS,
has checkered hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
SN 1432806; 32WS 47,
has checkered hammer spur and groove in magazine plug.
SN 1473334; 30WCF 47,
has grooved hammer spur and groove in magazine plug
SN 1717918; 25-35 50,
has grooved hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
quote:Originally posted by hclark
Bert:
I added some info that you might find interesting in blue print.
1. "Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?" Yes, on flat part of receiver below the SN.
2. "Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."? 25-35 WIN.
3. "If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?"
SN 1247546; 40 32WS,
has checkered hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
SN 1432806; 32WS 47,
has checkered hammer spur and groove in magazine plug.
SN 1473334; 30WCF 47,
has grooved hammer spur and groove in magazine plug
SN 1717918; 25-35 50,
has grooved hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
Thank you very much![^] The barrel date codes match up perfectly with what I expected them to be. It appears that you have a very fine batch of Model 94 Carbines[:p].
Winchester 55 take down rifle 32 W.S. "serrated shotgun butt" serial# 4948
Model 64 information to follow.
Hello ED,
I already had the information for all three guns (I think you sent it to me in an email several weeks ago). Regardless, here is what I can tell you;
1. Serial 1021928 is a 1928 vintage SRC. The bottom of the barrel under the forend stock should be marked "28". It should also have a Type-5 upper tang stamp (see the picture below).
2. Serial 244928 is a very late 1960 vintage Carbine.
3. Model 55 serial 4948 is a 1926 vintage rifle, and it should also have a "26" stamped on the bottom of the barrel.
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
You and everyone else are most welcome.
I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me[:D]
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
You and everyone else are most welcome.
I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me[:D]
Bert, I think if you put even more of an added focus on the "war years" than what you might be doing already, that the results would show enough justification for Renneberg to not only delineate features that he currently associates with the Variation II, Type 6 as the Pre-War Model 94 in serial number range 1,000,000 to 1,350,000, and the Variation II, Type 7 as the Pre-64 Model in the serial number range 1,350,000 to 2,600,001, that justification could be made to establish a category for a War-Model 94, which could be, for example, designated as the Variation II, Type 6B, in the serial number range, say, from 1,300,000 to 1,350,000.
Granted, the serial number range for such a "sample example" as shown above would be small compared to other variantions, but it would better describe the Winchester Model 94 made in the serial number range that you show in your survey for the war-years 1942-1945. As it stands right now we have a Pre-War Model 94 Category and a Post-War (Pre-64) Model 94 Category, but no War-Model Category when there seems to be more than just a little bit of justification to establish one.
First, if an attempt to establish and define a War-Model 94 was undertaken, then a starting point to identify the many different variables associated with this range would be necessary. Second, some of the variables that Renneberg currently notes as taking place in the Type 6 or Type 7 variations could be shown under the heading of the "sample example" War-Model previously mentioned, along with the many facts that your study turns up such as the "flatband" making its appearance as early as 1942. Facts like this, and others that are known, could be used to not only create what appears to be a worthy category, but provide new information and pictures to support its justification as well.
Hey, please make sure that I can buy a signed copy of Renneberg's book too, BUDDY! [:p][:D]
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
You and everyone else are most welcome.
I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me[:D]
Bert, I think if you put even more of an added focus on the "war years" than what you might be doing already, that the results would show enough justification for Renneberg to not only delineate features that he currently associates with the Variation II, Type 6 as the Pre-War Model 94 in serial number range 1,000,000 to 1,350,000, and the Variation II, Type 7 as the Pre-64 Model in the serial number range 1,350,000 to 2,600,001, that justification could be made to establish a category for a War-Model 94, which could be, for example, designated as the Variation II, Type 6B, in the serial number range, say, from 1,300,000 to 1,350,000.
Granted, the serial number range for such a "sample example" as shown above would be small compared to other variantions, but it would better describe the Winchester Model 94 made in the serial number range that you show in your survey for the war-years 1942-1945. As it stands right now we have a Pre-War Model 94 Category and a Post-War (Pre-64) Model 94 Category, but no War-Model Category when there seems to be more than just a little bit of justification to establish one.
First, if an attempt to establish and define a War-Model 94 was undertaken, then a starting point to identify the many different variables associated with this range would be necessary. Second, some of the variables that Renneberg currently notes as taking place in the Type 6 or Type 7 variations could be shown under the heading of the "sample example" War-Model previously mentioned, along with the many facts that your study turns up such as the "flatband" making its appearance as early as 1942. Facts like this, and others that are known, could be used to not only create what appears to be a worthy category, but provide new information and pictures to support its justification as well.
Hey, please make sure that I can buy a signed copy of Renneberg's book too, BUDDY! [:p][:D]
I now have (1161) Winchester Model 55, 64, and 94s listed in my survey. Of that total, (83) are Model 55s, and (166) are Model 64s. In regards to the "war year" guns, unfortunately, further study is severely limited by the small number of guns available to research. I simply am not finding very many of them to look at or observe. The vast number of the "war era" guns I have found are the Canadian PCMR Carbines, and all of them are like peas in a pod.
On a positive note, I completed the first in a series of articles based on this survey, and it has been sent it in for publishing. It will first be published in the WACA magazine (not sure which edition yet).
I am still looking for more guns and data to add to the survey... please put the word out to everyone you know who owns a Winchester Model 55, 64, or 94 to contact me here on the forum, or at Win1885@msn.com
bert: i am just getting into the 94 info. and find it really interesting! a question which may not make sense: can you give me a serial number range for a 1943 year 84? i'm looking for one for sentimental reasons. hope this doesn't distract you from your work and if i find one, i'll certainly contribute the numbers. the serial number ranges i got off the web are way off yours. help!! mike m.
quote:Originally posted by mikey888f
bert: i am just getting into the 94 info. and find it really interesting! a question which may not make sense: can you give me a serial number range for a 1943 year 84? i'm looking for one for sentimental reasons. hope this doesn't distract you from your work and if i find one, i'll certainly contribute the numbers. the serial number ranges i got off the web are way off yours. help!! mike m.
Hello Mike,
I do indeed have the serial number range for a 1943 production Model 94, but you may find it very difficult to find one. Production of the Model 94 was extremely low in the years 1943 - 1945 due to World War II. The last serial number in 1942 was 1343183, so if you want a 1943 production gun, you will need to find one with a serial number of 1343184 - 1346144... just a mere 2,960 serial numbers to choose from.
bert: thanks a lot. you are right, i've seen a lot "around" those numbers but am getting eye and brain fatigue. thanks again and i'll send you the info if i get lucky! dmm
Bert,
Heres another 1894 I just picked up,,,, ser # 946452 20" saddle ring carbine, chambered in 32WS shotgun style butt,,, 1-9 ladder type rear sight and blade front sight,,, and 1/2 magazine,,, upper tang is marked " model 94 ",,, unfortunately someone has cleand the reciever of its finish,,, barrel still has blue from rec to barrel band,, but it still has the saddle ring intact and a nice bore.
quote:Originally posted by spookster
Bert,
Heres another 1894 I just picked up,,,, ser # 946452 20" saddle ring carbine, chambered in 32WS shotgun style butt,,, 1-9 ladder type rear sight and blade front sight,,, and 1/2 magazine,,, upper tang is marked " model 94 ",,, unfortunately someone has cleand the reciever of its finish,,, barrel still has blue from rec to barrel band,, but it still has the saddle ring intact and a nice bore.
Jim
Hello Jim,
You have a late year 1922 vintage SRC, with possibly a special order butt stock/plate.
Bert,
Here is another one for your survey. You helped me date this rifle a couple of years ago on another forum.
SN: 2093863
Upper tang is blank (no marking)
Drilled and tapped for peep sight
Checkered buttplate
Milled barrel band
quote:Originally posted by bkmach1
Bert,
Here is another one for your survey. You helped me date this rifle a couple of years ago on another forum.
SN: 2093863
Upper tang is blank (no marking)
Drilled and tapped for peep sight
Checkered buttplate
Milled barrel band
to the left of above is:
"WINCHESTER"
"Trademark"
"Made in U.S.A"
I'm having problems posting pictures so I'm going to send all of this in an email to you also.
Brad
Hello Brad,
Thanks for the information. Just to be sure that you have the correct DOM information, your Model 94 Carbine was manufactured in late 1954. The bottom of the barrel (under the forend stock and magazine tube) should be marked "54". If you could verify that for me, I would very much appreciate it.
Hi Bert, I'm new here and not sure if your survey is still active but here goes.
Model 94-32 WIN.-SPL. S/N 2339316 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
quote:Originally posted by pruss
Hi Bert, I'm new here and not sure if your survey is still active but here goes.
Model 94-32 WIN.-SPL. S/N 2339316 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Yes, my survey is still ongoing (I suspect that I will continue it for quite some time). I have sent all of my data to Robert Renneberg for the revised edition to his reference book, but I am still collecting data to refine what I already know and have.
1. Serial 2308582 is a late 1958 production gun.
2. Serial 2339316 is an early 1959 production gun.
3. Serial 2538455 is an early 1962 production gun.
Thank you very much for participating in the survey[^]
Caliber is 30 wcf. Yes, the buttplate is serrated. 1248953
How many different styles of elevators for the rear sight were there, and are there dates for which styles were used when? I have a feeling the elevator on mine is a newer replacement.
Caliber is 30 wcf. Yes, the buttplate is serrated. 1248953
How many different styles of elevators for the rear sight were there, and are there dates for which styles were used when? I have a feeling the elevator on mine is a newer replacement.
Hello Alan,
You are quite welcome, and thank you for the added information.
During the timeframe when your Carbine was made, Winchester used several different types of rear sights, each with its own specific elevator. Without knowing which type of rear sight you have, I can not deteremine which elevator your Carbine should have. Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight and the elevator?
The last set of pictures were perfect, and you do indeed have the correct rear sight and elevator. It appears to be a very nice condition pre-war carbine[^]
Comments
Hi Bert,
I have 3 94's that fit into your range.
1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.
Thanks again for the information.
I already had the info for the Sporting Rifle you recently acquired(nice gun)[^].
Serial 1852675... does it have a drilled & tapped receiver? It was born in 1951.
Serial 2583488 is an early 1963 vintage gun.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Ron
Thanks,Mike
Model 55 Takedown Serial# 4948 1/2 Mag. Serrated shotgun butt 32W.S. Straight grip, 24"round barrel
Model 1894 SRC 30 WCF Serial# 1021928 Reg. carbine butt
Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 Serial# 2449298 milled band Shotgun checkered butt factory drilled for rec. sight
That is all I have in 94's near your serial# range.
I'll have a couple 64's information soon.
Good luck,
Ed
Bert-My serial# on my 94 is 2561550-marked 30-30WIN-Full checkered flat butt plate-Factory drilled for peep. This gun has a fine checkered stockiIs fully engraved w/gold inlay of a bear on one side and a running stag on the other.Hope this helps you in small way.Also any information you may have would be appreciated.
Thanks,Mike
Hello Mike,
At this point, all that I can tell you is that your Model 94 was manufactured in very late 1962. I can not confirm the authenticity of the engraving or deluxe features. If you can post (or send me) clear detailed pictures of the gun, I may be able to provide more information about the extras your Model 94 has.
WACA Historian & Life Member
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Hi Bert,
I have 3 94's that fit into your range.
1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.
Thanks again for the information.
I already had the info for the Sporting Rifle you recently acquired(nice gun)[^].
Serial 1852675... does it have a drilled & tapped receiver? It was born in 1951.
Serial 2583488 is an early 1963 vintage gun.
No, it is not drilled.
Maybe this will help you out:
Model 55 Takedown Serial# 4948 1/2 Mag. Serrated shotgun butt 32W.S. Straight grip, 24"round barrel
Model 1894 SRC 30 WCF Serial# 1021928 Reg. carbine butt
Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 Serial# 2449298 milled band Shotgun checkered butt factory drilled for rec. sight
That is all I have in 94's near your serial# range.
I'll have a couple 64's information soon.
Good luck,
Ed
Hello Ed,
Thank you very much[:)].
1. Model 55 serial 4948 = 1926
2. Model 94 1021928 = 1928
3. Model 94 2449298 = 1960 (very late)
All three guns are standard in all repsects.
WACA Historian & Life Member
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Hi Bert,
I have 3 94's that fit into your range.
1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.
Thanks again for the information.
I already had the info for the Sporting Rifle you recently acquired(nice gun)[^].
Serial 1852675... does it have a drilled & tapped receiver? It was born in 1951.
Serial 2583488 is an early 1963 vintage gun.
No, it is not drilled.
Hello Todd,
Thanks!
WACA Historian & Life Member
Bert I have 2 - 94's (.30.30) in that serial range. I fowarded the info to you. Let me know what you need more and I'll be happy to provide...Thanks
Ron
Hello Ron,
Got it, and thank you very much[:)].
WACA Historian & Life Member
32 WS
Serrated BP
Not D&T
Milled BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1432806, 1948:
32 WS
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1473334, 1948:
30 WCF
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1717918, 1951:
25-35 WIN
Flat checkered BP
Has receiver mounted peep sight, but location indicates that it may not be factory D&T'd (further towards rear of receiver than I believe factory holes would be)
Milled BB
Thanks for your insight and opinions,
JohnOriginally posted by Bert H.
OK, and on to your question & comments,
Unless that gun was shot a lot with hot handloads (and the receiver frame has strecthed), there should be no reason for the primers to be backing out. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in early 1955... a relatively young Model 94 by most standards.
Did you have your 'smith check the headspace? I find it doubtful that the barrel has been swapped, as it has the correct markings for the serial number vintage.
Speaking of the marking on your barrel, it should look just like this one...
[/quote]
Win 94 Carb, SN 1247546, 1941: 1940 per the PRSB
32 WS
Serrated BP
Not D&T
Milled BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1432806, 1948: 1947
32 WS
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1473334, 1948: Early 1948
30 WCF
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB
Win 94 Carb, SN 1717918, 1951: 1950
25-35 WIN
Flat checkered BP
Has receiver mounted peep sight, but location indicates that it may not be factory D&T'd (further towards rear of receiver than I believe factory holes would be)
Milled BB
Thank you very much for the information[:)].
I have several follow up questions for you...
1. Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?
2. Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."?
3. If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?
WACA Historian & Life Member
My understanding is the gun headspaces on the rim, and with brass being mfg now the rim is thinner ie the headspace getting excess. I have seen some 94s at the range during sight ins where the primers are more than half way backed out. When I see that I ask that the gun not be shot on the range. Am I over reacting or is this a potential disaster?
Thanks for your insight and opinions,
John
I would recommend trying a different brand of factory ammo. The 30-30 does indeed headspace on the rim, and if the ammo being shot has an overly thin rim, I would also suspect that you would be experiencing misfires. What does the firing pin indentation look like?
WACA Historian & Life Member
I will check and get back to you on your questions.
Hugh
Bert,
I will check and get back to you on your questions.
Hugh
Thanks, I really appreciate it[:)].
WACA Historian & Life Member
I added some info that you might find interesting in blue print.
1. "Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?" Yes, on flat part of receiver below the SN.
2. "Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."? 25-35 WIN.
3. "If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?"
SN 1247546; 40 32WS,
has checkered hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
SN 1432806; 32WS 47,
has checkered hammer spur and groove in magazine plug.
SN 1473334; 30WCF 47,
has grooved hammer spur and groove in magazine plug
SN 1717918; 25-35 50,
has grooved hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
Bert:
I added some info that you might find interesting in blue print.
1. "Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?" Yes, on flat part of receiver below the SN.
2. "Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."? 25-35 WIN.
3. "If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?"
SN 1247546; 40 32WS,
has checkered hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
SN 1432806; 32WS 47,
has checkered hammer spur and groove in magazine plug.
SN 1473334; 30WCF 47,
has grooved hammer spur and groove in magazine plug
SN 1717918; 25-35 50,
has grooved hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
Thank you very much![^] The barrel date codes match up perfectly with what I expected them to be. It appears that you have a very fine batch of Model 94 Carbines[:p].
WACA Historian & Life Member
I hope this helps you out.
Thanks,
Ed
Winchester 1894 SRC 30 W.C.F. Std. carbine butt Serial#1021928
Winchester 94 carbine 30-30 milled band checkered steel butt serial# 2449298
Winchester 55 take down rifle 32 W.S. "serrated shotgun butt" serial# 4948
Model 64 information to follow.
Hi Bert,
I hope this helps you out.
Thanks,
Ed
Winchester 1894 SRC 30 W.C.F. Std. carbine butt Serial#1021928
Winchester 94 carbine 30-30 milled band checkered steel butt serial# 2449298
Winchester 55 take down rifle 32 W.S. "serrated shotgun butt" serial# 4948
Model 64 information to follow.
Hello ED,
I already had the information for all three guns (I think you sent it to me in an email several weeks ago). Regardless, here is what I can tell you;
1. Serial 1021928 is a 1928 vintage SRC. The bottom of the barrel under the forend stock should be marked "28". It should also have a Type-5 upper tang stamp (see the picture below).
2. Serial 244928 is a very late 1960 vintage Carbine.
3. Model 55 serial 4948 is a 1926 vintage rifle, and it should also have a "26" stamped on the bottom of the barrel.
Type-5 Tang stamp...
WACA Historian & Life Member
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
You and everyone else are most welcome.
I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me[:D]
WACA Historian & Life Member
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
You and everyone else are most welcome.
I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me[:D]
Bert, I think if you put even more of an added focus on the "war years" than what you might be doing already, that the results would show enough justification for Renneberg to not only delineate features that he currently associates with the Variation II, Type 6 as the Pre-War Model 94 in serial number range 1,000,000 to 1,350,000, and the Variation II, Type 7 as the Pre-64 Model in the serial number range 1,350,000 to 2,600,001, that justification could be made to establish a category for a War-Model 94, which could be, for example, designated as the Variation II, Type 6B, in the serial number range, say, from 1,300,000 to 1,350,000.
Granted, the serial number range for such a "sample example" as shown above would be small compared to other variantions, but it would better describe the Winchester Model 94 made in the serial number range that you show in your survey for the war-years 1942-1945. As it stands right now we have a Pre-War Model 94 Category and a Post-War (Pre-64) Model 94 Category, but no War-Model Category when there seems to be more than just a little bit of justification to establish one.
First, if an attempt to establish and define a War-Model 94 was undertaken, then a starting point to identify the many different variables associated with this range would be necessary. Second, some of the variables that Renneberg currently notes as taking place in the Type 6 or Type 7 variations could be shown under the heading of the "sample example" War-Model previously mentioned, along with the many facts that your study turns up such as the "flatband" making its appearance as early as 1942. Facts like this, and others that are known, could be used to not only create what appears to be a worthy category, but provide new information and pictures to support its justification as well.
Hey, please make sure that I can buy a signed copy of Renneberg's book too, BUDDY! [:p][:D]
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.
You and everyone else are most welcome.
I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me[:D]
Bert, I think if you put even more of an added focus on the "war years" than what you might be doing already, that the results would show enough justification for Renneberg to not only delineate features that he currently associates with the Variation II, Type 6 as the Pre-War Model 94 in serial number range 1,000,000 to 1,350,000, and the Variation II, Type 7 as the Pre-64 Model in the serial number range 1,350,000 to 2,600,001, that justification could be made to establish a category for a War-Model 94, which could be, for example, designated as the Variation II, Type 6B, in the serial number range, say, from 1,300,000 to 1,350,000.
Granted, the serial number range for such a "sample example" as shown above would be small compared to other variantions, but it would better describe the Winchester Model 94 made in the serial number range that you show in your survey for the war-years 1942-1945. As it stands right now we have a Pre-War Model 94 Category and a Post-War (Pre-64) Model 94 Category, but no War-Model Category when there seems to be more than just a little bit of justification to establish one.
First, if an attempt to establish and define a War-Model 94 was undertaken, then a starting point to identify the many different variables associated with this range would be necessary. Second, some of the variables that Renneberg currently notes as taking place in the Type 6 or Type 7 variations could be shown under the heading of the "sample example" War-Model previously mentioned, along with the many facts that your study turns up such as the "flatband" making its appearance as early as 1942. Facts like this, and others that are known, could be used to not only create what appears to be a worthy category, but provide new information and pictures to support its justification as well.
Hey, please make sure that I can buy a signed copy of Renneberg's book too, BUDDY! [:p][:D]
I now have (1161) Winchester Model 55, 64, and 94s listed in my survey. Of that total, (83) are Model 55s, and (166) are Model 64s. In regards to the "war year" guns, unfortunately, further study is severely limited by the small number of guns available to research. I simply am not finding very many of them to look at or observe. The vast number of the "war era" guns I have found are the Canadian PCMR Carbines, and all of them are like peas in a pod.
On a positive note, I completed the first in a series of articles based on this survey, and it has been sent it in for publishing. It will first be published in the WACA magazine (not sure which edition yet).
I am still looking for more guns and data to add to the survey... please put the word out to everyone you know who owns a Winchester Model 55, 64, or 94 to contact me here on the forum, or at Win1885@msn.com
WACA Historian & Life Member
bert: i am just getting into the 94 info. and find it really interesting! a question which may not make sense: can you give me a serial number range for a 1943 year 84? i'm looking for one for sentimental reasons. hope this doesn't distract you from your work and if i find one, i'll certainly contribute the numbers. the serial number ranges i got off the web are way off yours. help!! mike m.
Hello Mike,
I do indeed have the serial number range for a 1943 production Model 94, but you may find it very difficult to find one. Production of the Model 94 was extremely low in the years 1943 - 1945 due to World War II. The last serial number in 1942 was 1343183, so if you want a 1943 production gun, you will need to find one with a serial number of 1343184 - 1346144... just a mere 2,960 serial numbers to choose from.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Heres another 1894 I just picked up,,,, ser # 946452 20" saddle ring carbine, chambered in 32WS shotgun style butt,,, 1-9 ladder type rear sight and blade front sight,,, and 1/2 magazine,,, upper tang is marked " model 94 ",,, unfortunately someone has cleand the reciever of its finish,,, barrel still has blue from rec to barrel band,, but it still has the saddle ring intact and a nice bore.
Jim
Bert,
Heres another 1894 I just picked up,,,, ser # 946452 20" saddle ring carbine, chambered in 32WS shotgun style butt,,, 1-9 ladder type rear sight and blade front sight,,, and 1/2 magazine,,, upper tang is marked " model 94 ",,, unfortunately someone has cleand the reciever of its finish,,, barrel still has blue from rec to barrel band,, but it still has the saddle ring intact and a nice bore.
Jim
Hello Jim,
You have a late year 1922 vintage SRC, with possibly a special order butt stock/plate.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Here is another one for your survey. You helped me date this rifle a couple of years ago on another forum.
SN: 2093863
Upper tang is blank (no marking)
Drilled and tapped for peep sight
Checkered buttplate
Milled barrel band
Marked
"Model-94- 30-30 WIN"
"Winchester Proof Steel" (directly below above)
to the left of above is:
"WINCHESTER"
"Trademark"
"Made in U.S.A"
I'm having problems posting pictures so I'm going to send all of this in an email to you also.
Brad
Bert,
Here is another one for your survey. You helped me date this rifle a couple of years ago on another forum.
SN: 2093863
Upper tang is blank (no marking)
Drilled and tapped for peep sight
Checkered buttplate
Milled barrel band
Marked
"Model-94- 30-30 WIN"
"Winchester Proof Steel" (directly below above)
to the left of above is:
"WINCHESTER"
"Trademark"
"Made in U.S.A"
I'm having problems posting pictures so I'm going to send all of this in an email to you also.
Brad
Hello Brad,
Thanks for the information. Just to be sure that you have the correct DOM information, your Model 94 Carbine was manufactured in late 1954. The bottom of the barrel (under the forend stock and magazine tube) should be marked "54". If you could verify that for me, I would very much appreciate it.
WACA Historian & Life Member
Model 94-32 WIN.-SPL. S/N 2339316 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Model-94-30-30 WIN- S/N 2308582 Standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Model-94-30-30- WIN S/N 2538455 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Hi Bert, I'm new here and not sure if your survey is still active but here goes.
Model 94-32 WIN.-SPL. S/N 2339316 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Model-94-30-30 WIN- S/N 2308582 Standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Model-94-30-30- WIN S/N 2538455 standard sights, checkered steel shotgun butt plate.
Hello,
Yes, my survey is still ongoing (I suspect that I will continue it for quite some time). I have sent all of my data to Robert Renneberg for the revised edition to his reference book, but I am still collecting data to refine what I already know and have.
1. Serial 2308582 is a late 1958 production gun.
2. Serial 2339316 is an early 1959 production gun.
3. Serial 2538455 is an early 1962 production gun.
Thank you very much for participating in the survey[^]
WACA Historian & Life Member
Don't know if this helps, but I have a 94 with the "W" marked aft of the serial number. SN 124895X. Is that a 1941 DOM?
Bert,
Don't know if this helps, but I have a 94 with the "W" marked aft of the serial number. SN 124895X. Is that a 1941 DOM?
Hello Alan,
It was manufactured in late October of 1940. If you do not mind, please answer the following;
1. Caliber
2. Butt plate type (it should be the serrated style)
3. The complete serial number
If you prefer, you can email the information to me at Win1885@msn.com
WACA Historian & Life Member
Thank you, sir.
Caliber is 30 wcf. Yes, the buttplate is serrated. 1248953
How many different styles of elevators for the rear sight were there, and are there dates for which styles were used when? I have a feeling the elevator on mine is a newer replacement.
Bert,
Thank you, sir.
Caliber is 30 wcf. Yes, the buttplate is serrated. 1248953
How many different styles of elevators for the rear sight were there, and are there dates for which styles were used when? I have a feeling the elevator on mine is a newer replacement.
Hello Alan,
You are quite welcome, and thank you for the added information.
During the timeframe when your Carbine was made, Winchester used several different types of rear sights, each with its own specific elevator. Without knowing which type of rear sight you have, I can not deteremine which elevator your Carbine should have. Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight and the elevator?
WACA Historian & Life Member
Does this angle show what you need?
Close, but the lighting is not so good. If possible, please take the exact same picture shots outdoors in natural lighting (indirect sunlight).
WACA Historian & Life Member
The last set of pictures were perfect, and you do indeed have the correct rear sight and elevator. It appears to be a very nice condition pre-war carbine[^]
WACA Historian & Life Member