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Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update

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Comments

  • 4rugers4rugers Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert:

    A book called The Winchester Model 94 The First 100 Years by Robert C Renneberg is the best resource I've ever used. John C.

    page 95-99 reference different butt plates.
    page 124-142 reference barrel markings

    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    Hello all.

    I am attempting to research all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please either post your information here, or send it directly to me at [email protected]

    Specifically, I am trying to determine the approximate serial number transition point for...

    (1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,

    Model94-30W.C.F.-1385707.jpg
    Model94--30-30WIN.--1948763.jpg

    (2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."

    Model94-32W.S.-1462074.jpg
    Model94-32WIN.SPL.-.jpg

    (3) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.

    Used only on the Model 94...
    Buttplate-Carbine1015072-2.jpg

    Used on both the Model 94 and 55...
    Buttplate-Serratedsteel.jpg

    Used only on the Model 94...
    Buttplate-Checkeredsteel.jpg

    Used almost exclusively on the Model 64...
    Buttplate-M702186021.jpg

    (4) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).

    Drilledtappedreceiver1677530.jpg

    (5) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band

    Milled...
    Milledband1156742-1.jpg
    Milledband1156742-2.jpg
    Milledband1156742-3.jpg
    Flat...
    FlatBand1465867.jpg
    FlatBand1465867-1.jpg


    And finally, to determine the serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.

    If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.



    Thanks in advance to all who respond & participate[:)].

    Bert H.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 4rugers
    Hi Bert:

    A book called The Winchester Model 94 The First 100 Years by Robert C Renneberg is the best resource I've ever used. John C.

    page 95-99 reference different butt plates.
    page 124-142 reference barrel markings



    I am intimately familar with the book that you refer to, and Bob Renneberg and I are well acquainted with one another. Bob is currently working on a new revision to the book you mention, and the results of my survey are being used to make some of the revisions.
  • fredsherqfredsherq Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Model 94 with the serial#64873.

    Two pictures here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157611589441611/

    3rd and 4th photo in that set.

    I can supply more photos if you need them
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by fredsherq
    I have a Model 94 with the serial#64873.

    Two pictures here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157611589441611/

    3rd and 4th photo in that set.

    I can supply more photos if you need them


    Hello Fred,

    It appears that you have a Model 1894 "Extra Lightweight" Sporting Rifle. The serial number tells us that it was manufactured mid year 1899.

    Your Model 1894 has much too early of a production date for what I am specifically seaking, but thank you very much for your post about it.
  • umoxfordumoxford Member Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Model 94, serial # 1506972, steel fully checkered butt plate and marked Model 94-30 WCF. The end piece you referred to does not appear to be stamped. I can't tell for certain. Hope that helps.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by umoxford
    I have a Model 94, serial # 1506972, steel fully checkered butt plate and marked Model 94-30 WCF. The end piece you referred to does not appear to be stamped. I can't tell for certain. Hope that helps.


    Hello umoxford,

    Thank you very much for posting the information on your 1948 vintage Model 94 Carbine. The front barrel band on your Carbine should be the "flat-band" variety, as it is in the correct serial number range (please refer to the first post in this topic, as there are pictures showing each type of barrel band).
  • CHGOTHNDERCHGOTHNDER Member Posts: 9,681
    edited November -1
    Hey Bert, are you going to or have you already done the 1873's?
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by CHGOTHNDER
    Hey Bert, are you going to or have you already done the 1873's?


    My answer is No, and No.

    My primary interest is in the John M. Browning designed Winchesters, and the Model 1873 does not fit the bill. Fortunately for you and many other interested collectors, nearly all of the original Model 1873 records have survived, and as such, they can be researched. It will be a very time consuming task though, as the original factory ledgers cover a 51-year production period, and contain records for more than 720,000 guns. To give you an idea of the effort it will take, it took three people more than 4-years to examine the 353,999 serial number records for the Model 1894.
  • buckhunter1948buckhunter1948 Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a 94 .32 W.S. sn#960990 It had a saddle ring and elevater rear sight but my uncle sawed off the ring and we replaced the sights with Lyman. What year was it made? Thanks Dan
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by buckhunter1948
    I have a 94 .32 W.S. sn#960990 It had a saddle ring and elevater rear sight but my uncle sawed off the ring and we replaced the sights with Lyman. What year was it made? Thanks Dan


    Hello Dane,

    Your Model 94 SRC was made in the latter half of the year 1923.
  • buckhunter1948buckhunter1948 Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Bert, Is the saddle ring screwed into the receiver? Dan
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by buckhunter1948
    Thanks Bert, Is the saddle ring screwed into the receiver? Dan


    Hello Dan,

    The saddle ring stud is screwed into the receiver.
  • skyhigh_sellerskyhigh_seller Member Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert,
    I have 1 for your survey. I have no expertise w/ these guns. I got it in a trade and will be putting it on GB for auction sometime soon.

    1144226
    Barrel is marked a bit different than you show:
    -WINCHESTER-MODEL94-WINCHESTER-32-W.S.-
    PROOF STEEL -TRADE MARK-


    Serrated butt plate
    NO drill and tap
    Milled band

    Problems formatting stamp, proof steel centered under WINCHESTER, trademark hyphens are extra long and trade mark is centered under WINCHESTER.

    And 1 question. There is a 3 stamped just in front of the trigger. Does that mean anything?

    Thanks for your hard work,
    DL
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    Hello DL, and thank you for the information.

    The "3" stamped just in front of the trigger is an inspector or assembler's stamp.

    I am aware that there are several minor iterations of the roll stamp used by Winchester. I have the first type and the third type. The stamp on your Model 94 is apparently the second type. Can you provide me with a clear picture of the barrel stamp? If so, please send it to me at [email protected]
  • boomacboomac Member Posts: 55 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    e-mail sent Bert
  • GUTSSGUTSS Member Posts: 103 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert, I've got a Model 64 that I think was make in 1937. This is the rifle that I shoot in all of the Lever Action Matches at our gun club. The buttplate is correct. It has a Redfield marked flat plug where the buckhorn sight would have went.
    006-8.jpg
    008-1.jpg
    005-8.jpg
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by GUTSS
    Hi Bert, I've got a Model 64 that I think was make in 1937. This is the rifle that I shoot in all of the Lever Action Matches at our gun club. The buttplate is correct. It has a Redfield marked flat plug where the buckhorn sight would have went.


    Thank you very much for posting the pictures[:)]. What caliber is your Model 64 Rifle?

    You are correct about the year of manufacture. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in March/April of 1937. The Redfield sight and dovetail filler was a factory optional sight.
  • GUTSSGUTSS Member Posts: 103 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry about that, it says .30 WCF
  • Bacon51Bacon51 Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello Bert,
    I have a well worn Model 94 with serial #1284440. It is marked 30W.C.F. and there is no "W" between the serial # and lever.
    No receiver sight holes. It has a serrated steel butt plate and milled front barrel band. The rear sight elevator is like toadtown's, no checkered part extending out the rear. I believe it was manufactured during the mid-1940's.

    Regards,
    Steve
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Bacon51
    Hello Bert,
    I have a well worn Model 94 with serial #1284440. It is marked 30W.C.F. and there is no "W" between the serial # and lever.
    No receiver sight holes. It has a serrated steel butt plate and milled front barrel band. The rear sight elevator is like toadtown's, no checkered part extending out the rear. I believe it was manufactured during the mid-1940's.

    Regards,
    Steve


    Hello Steve,

    Your Model 94 was actually manufactured in early 1941 making it a pre-war gun. It is a bit too late to have the "W" stamp, but I suspect that the leading "1" digit actually looks more like an "L".
  • MrGnAMrGnA Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Bert.

    In A LOT of the earlier 1894's you can see striations running across the receiver.

    I always assumed it was from refinishing, sanding, steel wool, but now it is apparent it was something from the milling process.

    Is that what it's from?
    Bill
  • Mike D.Mike D. Member Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the update on my Model 64. I was unaware of the change to .30-30 WIN. from 30 W.C.F. being as late as it was. Too bad that Cody hasn't the records on the late guns, 'cause I'd like to know the exact assembly date of my gun. The fact that the receiver carries a 1948 serial number, yet the barrel has post-1950 markings sounds typical of Winchester's parts storage "issues".
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MrGnA
    Hey Bert.

    In A LOT of the earlier 1894's you can see striations running across the receiver.

    I always assumed it was from refinishing, sanding, steel wool, but now it is apparent it was something from the milling process.

    Is that what it's from?
    Bill


    Hello Bill,

    Not quite... it was the result of the forging process. The striations never run quite straight across the length of the receiver frame like they would if caused by a milling machine. Those striations are something I specifically look for on all of the older Winchester models, and are a positive indicator that the gun in questions has not been refinished.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mike D.
    Thanks for the update on my Model 64. I was unaware of the change to .30-30 WIN. from 30 W.C.F. being as late as it was. Too bad that Cody hasn't the records on the late guns, 'cause I'd like to know the exact assembly date of my gun. The fact that the receiver carries a 1948 serial number, yet the barrel has post-1950 markings sounds typical of Winchester's parts storage "issues".


    Hello Mike,

    You are quite welcome.

    One thing you might try, is to remove the forend stock and look for a 2-digit year date stamp on the bottom of the barrel. I too suspected exactly what you did... that the receiver frame sat in the parts bin for a few years before being assenbled into a complete rifle. It would be really nice if you find a "50" or "51" on the bottom of the barrel.

    As a point of interest, Model 64 serial number 1695096 is marked "30 W.C.F." (and it is the highest serial number I have thus far with that marking), while serial number 1707797 was the first Model 64 in my survey with the "30-30 WIN" marking. Both rifles were made in 1950.
  • MrGnAMrGnA Member Posts: 76 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert,

    Much Thanks!
    Here's my example:
    1894_stripes.JPG
  • Mike D.Mike D. Member Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    'Ya know, Bert, that pulling the forend off that gun is a major PITA.
    I removed the cap, which had probably never been off the gun prior to today, and it appears that the magazine and the forearm tip tenon will also require removal before the forend will come off. It shows no signs of ever being off the gun and is TIGHT. I don't want to screw anything up on this beauty, so might wait for a better day.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mike D.
    'Ya know, Bert, that pulling the forend off that gun is a major PITA.
    I removed the cap, which had probably never been off the gun prior to today, and it appears that the magazine and the forearm tip tenon will also require removal before the forend will come off. It shows no signs of ever being off the gun and is TIGHT. I don't want to screw anything up on this beauty, so might wait for a better day.


    Hello Mike,

    I believe you, and unless you are 100% comfortable with disassembling it, don't do it! There is no sound reason to take a gun apart that has never been apart just for the sake of curiousity.
  • 44smokeless44smokeless Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert,
    Sorry for the miss que on my first attempted reply.
    Model 94-30-30 WIN-
    and below that is "---Winchester proof steel---"
    I don't see that on any of your other pix.
    It has a milled barrel band
    factory drilled for sights
    checkered steel but s/n 2,125,442
    I took this piece out of service from a friend of mine as it was backing out primers pretty bad and I want to keep my buddy alive.
    I understand some brass with thicker rims might work ok, but my gunsmith says there really isn't any way to make the old ones any safer because of the complex areas of wear and the newer brass typically having thinner rims.
    I hope this is a little help and I'll look for your comments.
    Thanks
    [/quote]

    No problem... I deleted your first attempt to cut down on the clutter.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    OK, and on to your question & comments,

    Unless that gun was shot a lot with hot handloads (and the receiver frame has strecthed), there should be no reason for the primers to be backing out. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in early 1955... a relatively young Model 94 by most standards.

    Did you have your 'smith check the headspace? I find it doubtful that the barrel has been swapped, as it has the correct markings for the serial number vintage.

    Speaking of the marking on your barrel, it should look just like this one...

    Model-94-30-30WIN2019658.jpg
  • dirtcopdirtcop Member Posts: 179 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a win 94, serial#1.442 million in 25-35 WCF with flat band. also checkered steel butt plate.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dirtcop
    I have a win 94, serial#1.442 million in 25-35 WCF with flat band. also checkered steel butt plate.


    Please PM me with the complete serial number. Of the (74) Flat-band Carbines I have in my survey thus far, only (4) of them are 25-35 W.C.F.'s, which makes it a relatively rare.
  • tewdemonstewdemons Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Model 94, Serial #2150262 that was left to my by my grandfather some time ago. He purchased it new. Just wanted to add to the post and get your two cents on this particular item. I may be able to post some photos. The rifle has never been touched up, or most likely ever seen by a smith.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tewdemons
    I have a Model 94, Serial #2150262 that was left to my by my grandfather some time ago. He purchased it new. Just wanted to add to the post and get your two cents on this particular item. I may be able to post some photos. The rifle has never been touched up, or most likely ever seen by a smith.


    Is it a 30-30 WIN. or a 32 WIN. SPL.? The serial number indicates that it is a late 1955 production Carbine. I would appreciate seeing some pictures of it[:)].
  • airmungairmung Member Posts: 579 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi, Bert,
    I'n not sure if this has any bearing to what your are seeking, but thought it might help. I'm looking at an early 1894 rifle. It has a full length magazine tube, is marked "25-35 W.C.F." on the left side barrel flat, topstrap is stamped "MODEL 1894 WINCHESTER TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PAT. OFF." Barrel length measures 25 3/8 inches from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. The left barrel flat is marked "NICKEL STEEL BARREL ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The front sight is marked "WESTSITE" on the left side. The top flat of the barrel is stamped "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894." The serial no. is 4779XX, which I have been told, puts its DOM about 1910. This rifle has a crescent buttplate, although the top is different than the carbine buttplate pictured in your posting, and the contour is different. The buttplate is not checkered or serrated. Needless to say, it is not tapped for a peep sight. The barrel band does not not go around the barrel, but appears to be set into a dovetail on the bottom of the barrel, goes around the magazine tube, and is secured with a pin. It appears to be a milled part. An inspector's stamp on the top front of the receiver matches an adjacent one on the top barrel flat and is a long P overstamped by a W. The receiver definitely has the forging stirations.
    Hope this will, help your research.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by airmung
    Hi, Bert,
    I'n not sure if this has any bearing to what your are seeking, but thought it might help. I'm looking at an early 1894 rifle. It has a full length magazine tube, is marked "25-35 W.C.F." on the left side barrel flat, topstrap is stamped "MODEL 1894 WINCHESTER TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PAT. OFF." Barrel length measures 25 3/8 inches from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. The left barrel flat is marked "NICKEL STEEL BARREL ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The front sight is marked "WESTSITE" on the left side. The top flat of the barrel is stamped "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894." The serial no. is 4779XX, which I have been told, puts its DOM about 1910. This rifle has a crescent buttplate, although the top is different than the carbine buttplate pictured in your posting, and the contour is different. The buttplate is not checkered or serrated. Needless to say, it is not tapped for a peep sight. The barrel band does not not go around the barrel, but appears to be set into a dovetail on the bottom of the barrel, goes around the magazine tube, and is secured with a pin. It appears to be a milled part. An inspector's stamp on the top front of the receiver matches an adjacent one on the top barrel flat and is a long P overstamped by a W. The receiver definitely has the forging stirations.
    Hope this will, help your research.


    Thank you for posting, but the information you provided is not of any use to my survey. The information I am seeking is specific to the later production Carbines.

    What you have is a standard production Sporting Rifle that was manufactured in late 1910. The butt plate is the standard "crescent" type used on the vast majority of the Sporting Rifles.
  • Spider7115Spider7115 Member, Moderator Posts: 29,602 ******
    edited November -1
    Hi, Bert. I have #2320036, marked "32 WIN. SPL." with checkered steel buttplate. Date of manufacture would be appreciated. Thanks.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
    Hi, Bert. I have #2320036, marked "32 WIN. SPL." with checkered steel buttplate. Date of manufacture would be appreciated. Thanks.


    Hello Tom,

    Thank you for the information. Based on my production estimates for the 1950 - 1964 vintage Model 94s, it was manufactured in December of 1958, but it most likely was not completely assembled and shipped until early 1959.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Member Posts: 35,558 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert,
    I have a model 94.
    s/n 1874693
    Barrel marked 32 Win. Spl.
    It has the checkerd steel butt plate.
    It has the milled barrel band.
    It has the remains(base?)of a reciever mounted sight. My dad bought the rifle for my brother and me in about 1974 and the sight has never been complete as long as we have owned it.

    The information I had, and now I don't even remember where I got it, said it was made in 1951 if I recall correctly.

    Can you confirm that date Bert? Thanks in advance.
  • GuvamintCheeseGuvamintCheese Member Posts: 38,932
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert,

    I have 3 94's that fit into your range.

    1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
    1852675 30-30 steel butt
    2583488 30-30 steel butt.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member, Moderator Posts: 11,274 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MT357
    Bert,
    I have a model 94.
    s/n 1874693
    Barrel marked 32 Win. Spl.
    It has the checkerd steel butt plate.
    It has the milled barrel band.
    It has the remains(base?)of a reciever mounted sight. My dad bought the rifle for my brother and me in about 1974 and the sight has never been complete as long as we have owned it.

    The information I had, and now I don't even remember where I got it, said it was made in 1951 if I recall correctly.

    Can you confirm that date Bert? Thanks in advance.


    Is it factory drilled & tapped for the receiver sight? If you are unsure, dismount the sight, and checked the tapped holes... if they are completely in the white (no bluing), it is non-factory work.

    Based on my estimate, it would have been manufactured in December of 1951. If you remove the forend stock, there should be a 2-digit year code stamped on the bottom of the barrel near the frame.
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