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Rights of Police vs. Citizens
Don McManus
Member Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭
I would hope we can be civil and avoid the removal of this thread. Apparently someone made statements that offended someone in the earlier thread started by KYPlumber.
The question is this:
What are the rights of a homeowner when a police task group breaks into his house yelling 'Police'?
I would suggest that anyone breaking into your house is fair game, and that the police officer(s) should know the risks associated with such a break in and be held accountable for the consequences. The 4th Amendment is an existing national Castle Doctrine should apply. An armed homeowner should be held harmless in the event that one of these invaders takes a bullet. Conversely, the instigators of the event should be held accountable in the event the homeowner is hurt when responding to such an invasion. We must remember that the 4th Amendment is written specifically to guarantee that individuals (not the state or its representatives) can be secure in their own homes.
Have we become a nation whereby it is accepted that the state can do as it pleases and is not required to accept the risks or responsibilities of its actions? This mentality places us not at the precipice of a slippery slope, rather it positions us well down the face sliding rapidly towards total tyranny.
I cringe whenever this type of statement is met with the tired old line of 'Well, if you have nothing to hide...'
Freedom and Liberty demand that the individual be free from having to prove or demonstrate whether he has or has not anything to hide. Freedom and Liberty demand that our Federal, State, and Local Governments respect the basic human rights of all individuals.
It is the difference between treating individuals as citizens rather than subjects.
The question is this:
What are the rights of a homeowner when a police task group breaks into his house yelling 'Police'?
I would suggest that anyone breaking into your house is fair game, and that the police officer(s) should know the risks associated with such a break in and be held accountable for the consequences. The 4th Amendment is an existing national Castle Doctrine should apply. An armed homeowner should be held harmless in the event that one of these invaders takes a bullet. Conversely, the instigators of the event should be held accountable in the event the homeowner is hurt when responding to such an invasion. We must remember that the 4th Amendment is written specifically to guarantee that individuals (not the state or its representatives) can be secure in their own homes.
Have we become a nation whereby it is accepted that the state can do as it pleases and is not required to accept the risks or responsibilities of its actions? This mentality places us not at the precipice of a slippery slope, rather it positions us well down the face sliding rapidly towards total tyranny.
I cringe whenever this type of statement is met with the tired old line of 'Well, if you have nothing to hide...'
Freedom and Liberty demand that the individual be free from having to prove or demonstrate whether he has or has not anything to hide. Freedom and Liberty demand that our Federal, State, and Local Governments respect the basic human rights of all individuals.
It is the difference between treating individuals as citizens rather than subjects.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Brad Steele
Brad Steele
Comments
Not only did you hit the X-ring, but you hit the "X" dead center where the lines intersect to form the "X".
+10000000000000000000000000
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
here ya go Zulu
http://wcco.com/crime/iteam.police.raid.2.652690.html
http://wcco.com/crime/wrong.house.raid.2.616029.html
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/police_bungling_police_raid_oaps_house.htm
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/120331.html
IT STILL SUCKS. You cant spin this.
I really don't know for sure about that..but concur with your assesment above.
I am sorry if this offends any officers here on the forum. My father is a retired police officer and I have many friends that are law enforcement. I have a lot of respect for these folks and expect the same in return.
Who ever planned this raid and got the wrong home, resulting in the death of an innocent man should be tried in a court of law and held responsible for this.
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
THIS MAY BE TRUE (BUT)
Just because they have a warrant does not mean there is wrong doing going on in that house, with this said. 3 years ago at 04:30 there was a loud boom (bang grenade) next door to us.
Of course I spring out of bed grab a gun and look out the frt door.
Looked like Christmas out there, must have been 15 county cop cars 12 unmarked cars, swat van all with the blue lights on and a chopper over head. Needless to say I got my * back inside.
When it was all said and done. The people that lived there
(6 teenagers) were supposed to be selling drugs and have a large amount of guns there. cops found no drugs and 1 hand gun that got 1 boy arrested because he was a felon and there was a gun in the house.
So just because they had a warrant does not mean the raid was justified. it just showes they thought something was going on.
now what would have happen if one of the kids had shot someone when they were raided
also the reason given for the raid @ 4:30 was they feared for the safety of the neighborhood
What about when the Idiots get the wrong house????
Or lying? I'll bet some clever crooks out there yelled out "Freeze Police!" to gain an upper hand by confusing the soon to be victim.
There was an event in San Diego a number of years ago where a police squad with a search warrant "kicked in the door". Problem was it was the wrong house and they DIDN'T yell "police". The home owner called the police and reported a break in, then barricaded himself on the second floor with his handgun. He was killed ...6+ police officers with MP4's.
what's an MP4? [;)]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
If the police have that little piece of paper, then a judge found enough probable cause to issue the warrant. They have the right search the place described in the warrant and to seize anything described in the warrant or any contraband found at the scene.
The police have power.
Walking up to a door and presenting a warrant is far removed from kcking a door down at 5 A.M. in the morning.
Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
If the police have that little piece of paper, then a judge found enough probable cause to issue the warrant. They have the right search the place described in the warrant and to seize anything described in the warrant or any contraband found at the scene.
Provided that contraband is either in PLAIN VIEW or within the scope of the warrant. If they're looking for a stolen bazooka and see crack cocaine lying on the table, it's fair game. However, they can't open a nightstand drawer looking for said bazooka (unless it's stolen Bazooka Bubble Gum!).
Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
If the police have that little piece of paper, then a judge found enough probable cause to issue the warrant. They have the right search the place described in the warrant and to seize anything described in the warrant or any contraband found at the scene.
The original post referenced concerned a 'no knock' invasion where an innocent man was shot. This only occurred because the officers involved put their safety above that of the citizen who rightly tried to defend himself.
Kudos, however, on the accuracy of your screen name.
Brad Steele
Stand up for your rights and protect yourself, property and family no matter how justified and legal it may be you will be killed.
Stand up for your rights and protect yourself, property and family no matter how justified and legal it may be you will be killed.
This from a decendent of the Founders...or at least one who lives in the dregs of freedom left from those Founders.
The Founders...who died standing up for their RIGHTS..and protecting themselves from a ravening Beast.
Today..we just die meekly wherever that Beast choses to strike next.....
I hear someone crash through my door I train my 12 gauge at the top of the steps and call the cops. If anyone pokes their head over the top, they get shot.
If I call the cops and they say, 'that's who is in your house!' or I was otherwise sure it was the police, then I'd call out to them and put down my gun. And sue their rear ends from one end of the state to the other.
I'm surprised nobody has cited the fairly recent occasion in the Denver Metro area where the man was killed by a police "Black Ops" team for reaching for a can of soda pop.
It looked like a gun.
You people that support roadblocks, cops killing running kids, stomping suspect rights, YOU are the people are endorsing a police state.
Nowadays, the Brownshirts wear blue. I hearby copyright this great catchphrase![:p]
What it will take to change the situation is that when the police do kick down the door, the person really is there waiting for them. How fast would the police change there tactics if the news was filled everyday of cops being killed in these raids. It has gone on for years because no one ever does shoot back.If more and more raids ened in dead cops, this all would stop.
Allison9:
Likewise when good people are murdered defending what is Constitutionally theirs. Though no one in his right mind wants a revolution, the one that appears possible will be fought through the shattered doorjambs of hundreds of good peoples' homes throughout this country. Only when other good people see that decent people are willing to take a stand will the current state of democratic mob rule be once again replaced by the rule of law.
Brad Steele
quote:Submit or be killed.
Stand up for your rights and protect yourself, property and family no matter how justified and legal it may be you will be killed.
This from a decendent of the Founders...or at least one who lives in the dregs of freedom left from those Founders.
Just the facts and grandmothers across America will rejoice that justice has been done as they did with so many others.
No knock warrants were (when I was working) very hard to get. You had to show cause that violent resistance was likely for a knock warrant.
And statistics show that a 4:00 AM entry time is more likely to give entry teams the edge on securing all occupants safely.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
You don't watch the news do you...it happens all the time.
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
Most state laws require you to submit to arrest when you know that it is the police that are entering your home.
No knock warrants were (when I was working) very hard to get. You had to show cause that violent resistance was likely for a knock warrant.
And statistics show that a 4:00 AM entry time is more likely to give entry teams the edge on securing all occupants safely.
Alpine, I can assure you that you are wasting your time attempting to justify proven tactical entries. As far as many here are concerned, their rights place them above the law (even if the entry is warranted and just). I'm also convinced that the "noise makers" on this forum don't have a clue of what being in law enforcement requires. Being a pansy whining soap box stander isn't part of what makes a good policeman (be it a SWAT member, or simply walking a beat). Those same people likely couldn't make it through training, let alone become "One of _____*_______ finest." * You fill in the blank. [;)]
Jim
does your mouth open wider than your *?
Alpine, I can assure you that you are wasting your time attempting to justify proven tactical entries. As far as many here are concerned, their rights place them above the law (even if the entry is warranted and just). I'm also convinced that the "noise makers" on this forum don't have a clue of what being in law enforcement requires. Being a pansy whining soap box stander isn't part of what makes a good policeman (be it a SWAT member, or simply walking a beat). Those same people likely couldn't make it through training, let alone become "One of _____*_______ finest." * You fill in the blank. [;)]
Jim
I agree to a point. As I mentioned in the prior (now poofed post), this is a "catch 22". The element of surprise is what we as law enforcement seek when gaining entry into a house for the purpose of a search warrant, "no-knock" that is. If we show up with blue lights flashing, announce ourselves, we are simpy asking for an ambush in alot of situations. The "no-knock" warrant is very hard to obtain, and is reserved for situations where the suspect is believed to be armed, a threat to officers, or where the probablity of the evidence desired to be found could be readily destroyed, flushed or otherwise disposed of. Again, I fully appreciate and understand the fear and the self defense mode that a homeowner would go through when their front door is kicked in, but what are the consequences to the officers if this is not employed. While the "raid" tactic is not always viable or even justified, alot of times it IS NECESSARY for the safety for the officers involved and for the suspect, homeowner.
Again, these tactics should be employed in extreme circumstances and the officers had better do thier homework, i.e, verifying the right house, surveilance shoud be made prior to entry to try and verify who is in the house and how many people are in the house. Unfortunately, it is a product of the world we live in and it is the nature of the beast so to speak, if we lived in a perfect world, cops would carry roses and not guns.
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
Most state laws require you to submit to arrest when you know that it is the police that are entering your home.
No knock warrants were (when I was working) very hard to get. You had to show cause that violent resistance was likely for a knock warrant.
And statistics show that a 4:00 AM entry time is more likely to give entry teams the edge on securing all occupants safely.
Alpine, I can assure you that you are wasting your time attempting to justify proven tactical entries. As far as many here are concerned, their rights place them above the law (even if the entry is warranted and just). I'm also convinced that the "noise makers" on this forum don't have a clue of what being in law enforcement requires. Being a pansy whining soap box stander isn't part of what makes a good policeman (be it a SWAT member, or simply walking a beat). Those same people likely couldn't make it through training, let alone become "One of _____*_______ finest." * You fill in the blank. [;)]
Jim
DONT GET INTO THE MUD WITH SOME OF THESE GUYS JIM. IT'S LIKE REASONING WITH A DRUNK..DONT GET ME WRONG I LIKE THE FACT THAT THIS FOURM ALLOWS EVERYONE TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS, HOWEVER MANY BEILIEVE THEIR OPINION IS ALL THAT MATTERS.[;)][;)]
I know better than to try to change anyone's mind here.
Hey it's just the internet.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
That would also free up some 100,000 plus policeman to protect and serve their communities from real crime.
By thye way, there should be no gun laws.
Doug
Just look to goverment health insurance. It doesn't work either.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
ok.... It's 3 am and pitch dark..."someone" kicks in your door.... even though they yell police there is no way to readily identify them because the only lights are those shined in your eyes. Do I have an obligation to obey someone when I cannot confirm their identity? In addition I was in a truck stop a few weeks ago and they were selling black hats that said DEA, POLICE, homeland security and other enforcement agencies. So even confirmation of such visible indicators there is still no assurance thet they are the real deal.
Good points. Maybe police ought to disavow criminal entry tactics so there is no mistake.
You mentioned that the police came in the guys house and shot an innocent man? That information never was posted as I recall yesterday, what I do recall is that they found drugs in the house, while it was a small amount it was what they were looking for?
Is he innocent because the police kicked in his door, or because he was shot? I recall he was a concealed handgun license holder, is that why he is innocent? Or did you read another article about this that was not posted?
I think they should still allow no knock type warrants, they are necessary to insure safety in the work that we do. I hate that there are times that folks get hurt, but they shouldn't be doing illegal things, bottom line. Mistakes happen in every line of work, don't they? It's only because the Police and their actions are the spotlight that they are in the media so much.
I also hate when the police are stupid enough or don't check enough and hit the wrong house. Sometimes its because folks are lazy, sometimes because of bad informant information. Stuff happens.
Would 12 reasonable men and women convict you of shooting an officer all dressed in black kicking in your door at 4 am? I don't think they would. I know what my reaction would be, I would not be giving up at 4 am until I knew it was the real police. I hope none of us ever have to face that jury.
We had a case locally a few years ago where the police responded to a house where a man had beat his wife, patrol officers arrived and immediately got shot at. They were pinned down and SWAT officers arrived and got them from behind their pinned down position. They ended up going in the house, threw in tear gas, well it was the wrong type and it burned the house down. They bought the crook a house even after he had shot at the police. Somethings wrong with that picture to me.
ok.... It's 3 am and pitch dark..."someone" kicks in your door.... even though they yell police there is no way to readily identify them because the only lights are those shined in your eyes. Do I have an obligation to obey someone when I cannot confirm their identity? In addition I was in a truck stop a few weeks ago and they were selling black hats that said DEA, POLICE, homeland security and other enforcement agencies. So even confirmation of such visible indicators there is still no assurance thet they are the real deal.
If you wake up at 3 AM, blinded by a light in your eyes, and someone shouting "police"...well if you reach for a gun, you're going to die right then and there, regardless of who's behind the light. If you don't grab your gun, and it is the police, you get to live.
My original post fed off the one you reference, and I confess I do not know the details. I remembered the concept of an innocent man being shot, which prompted my original question in this thread. I would, however, suggest that innocent or guilty of drug possession, for example, does not make a difference in my mind regarding this subject.
The example you cite where a man knowingly shot at police is much different than hearing your door broken down at 5:00 am and being forced to react. It matters not to me if the person who was awoken cheated on his taxes or had drugs in his possession. Neither crime warrants an armed assault on his home, and the fact that he reacted to protect himself and his family earns him praise in my book.
I would hope that there is much more to the story than the police breaking down his door looking for and finding drugs at 5:00 am.
You state that he was a CCW license holder, which suggests he has not ever been a threat to the community. A no knock warrant of an otherwise upstanding citizen because of suspected drug possession is inexcusable, unforgivable and has me wishing the homeowner had quicker reactions and better aim.
Brad Steele
The disdain or disrespect that some have for Law Enforcement will never change, much to my regret. We all have experiences that fuel our reasoning for whatever we do. I agree that some Law Enforcement actions must be investigated, and we must police ourselves at times. To have the public trust is a valuable trust, but with great power comes great responsibility.
I don't know why a law abiding CHL or CCW holder would be around a house where the Police have developed enough probable cause to determine that there are drugs or illegal substances inside? The CHL holders that I have met in Texas (I don't know about other states) are some of the best, law abiding folks I have met. They (myself included) are given circus like holes to jump through to be able to have a license that is a constitutionally given right in the first place!
I have always figured that if I run into a person with a CHL I can count on them to help me if I need it, cause more than likely they have a gun and are good enough to want to make their life better and be in charge of their own safety (evidenced by going through what it takes to get the CHL in the first place.) I guess that is where my biggest concern is about all this forum police hating or bashing. If I am on the side of the road getting my rear kicked by some crook, will folks who dislike the law stop and help or just drive by and say something like has been posted about this subject? Maybe folks are just running their mouth, I'm not sure. I would never pass up a person in need if I could help them.
I know that there are provisions in place to do this in Texas, but I have never submitted a letter to petitioned the state to have someones CHL revoked. I'm sure there are circumstances that would warrant such an action, just like having to revoke a Peace Officers license due to criminal violations.
I understand totally about the kicking in the door at 5am thing, they have tactics for a reason, but just last night I heard in Phoenix that mexican army (they retracted that part later, how convenient) broke into the house of a drug dealer with Phoenix PD shirts on. We all must be prepared for a criminal attack on our home, I just pray I don't have to go to KY Plumber's home and get shot up with his AK!