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There were no drug laws 100 years ago.. I dont believe drug laws
have done one thing to make our society any safer or more law abiding. We have four million people behind bars. Most of them
for drugs. We are fighting a drug war in Afghanistan. Been growing
the poppey for ten thousand years. Will be doing it for that much
more. We blame all our ills on drugs. Hence when the word "drugs"
is mentioned all rules go out the window because we are at WAR.
Rememder the old saying "ALLS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR"
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
Most state laws require you to submit to arrest when you know that it is the police that are entering your home.
No knock warrants were (when I was working) very hard to get. You had to show cause that violent resistance was likely for a knock warrant.
And statistics show that a 4:00 AM entry time is more likely to give entry teams the edge on securing all occupants safely.
Alpine, I can assure you that you are wasting your time attempting to justify proven tactical entries. As far as many here are concerned, their rights place them above the law (even if the entry is warranted and just). I'm also convinced that the "noise makers" on this forum don't have a clue of what being in law enforcement requires.
I have a clue, do I count?
Being a pansy whining soap box stander isn't part of what makes a good policeman (be it a SWAT member, or simply walking a beat). Those same people likely couldn't make it through training, let alone become "One of _____*_______ finest." *
I did, do I count?
You fill in the blank. [;)]
Jim
A couple facts from an active, full-time Peace Officer....
Fact is, no-knock warrants are easier to get nowadays than ever before.
Fact is, that "tactical" entries and "SWAT" served warrants are more common and standard than ever before.
Fact is, that SWAT/Tactical Teams have proliferated far beyond what can be justified by changes in society.
Fact is, that the "law enforcement" mentality, as opposed to the "Peace Officer" outlook, has practically taken over certain segments of the world of policing.
Fact is, there is a distinct difference between "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer".
Fact is, that America's Republic and our society is designed to properly accommodate the "Peace Officer" role, which is supportive of the "Individualism Model" and its requisite personal liberties -vs- the LEO role, which follows the "Collectivist Model" and its accompanying plethora of laws and regulations, reminiscent of a more totalitarian type government.
Fact is, that military style tactics are becoming more the norm and cooperative training and operations with federal "law enforcement", utilizing "military style" tactics and training, is increasing exponentially.
Fact is, innocent people do get shot at times and wrong addresses are entered at times.
Fact is, that there is danger to police in the performance of our duties and that SWAT type raids are appropriate "SOME" of the time, but far less than what actually occurs.
I can't read all the BS in these threads and the responses.
If the law gets the wrong address and breaks into my house in the wee hours of the morning. I will fire back because I have no idea they are actually the law.
Besides, I know I've done nothing wrong to bring them here. I have to assume its jamal/padro and his buds posing as police.
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
I am not justifying anything. I'm just explaining the facts.
I know better than to try to change anyone's mind here.
Hey it's just the internet.
For goodness sake Alpine, don't feel like people will dislike you because "I" attempted to back you up. [;)] The folks here that are stuck on an intentional misinterpretation of a comment I made "many moons ago" can continue their ill thoughts towards me. I could care less about any of those whining earth pimples. They mean nothing to me and know nothing about my background, nor my efforts to correct errors made by others. I'm a proud American that has done more for my cities, state and country than most of the folks that dislike me here. [^]
In regard to "it's just the internet" comment, there are many here that are giants on-line and puny little cowards in person. I know of several on this forum (and they know who I refer to) that would wet their pants if I walked up to them and introduced myself as "HobbyGuy" from the GB forums. [:D]
Lastly, thanks pipe7 for your comments. [^]
Jim
funny thing about this forums, is it is for gun owners do you honestly think anyone on these forums would quiver in your presence? Cause I highly doubt it unless your cranium is made of titanium you are 3'1" and made of wax.
quote:Originally posted by lt496
A couple facts from an active, full-time Peace Officer....
Fact is, no-knock warrants are easier to get nowadays than ever before.
Fact is, that "tactical" entries and "SWAT" served warrants are more common and standard than ever before.
Fact is, that SWAT/Tactical Teams have proliferated far beyond what can be justified by changes in society.
Fact is, that the "law enforcement" mentality, as opposed to the "Peace Officer" outlook, has practically taken over certain segments of the world of policing.
Fact is, there is a distinct difference between "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer".
Fact is, that America's Republic and our society is designed to properly accommodate the "Peace Officer" role, which is supportive of the "Individualism Model" and its requisite personal liberties -vs- the LEO role, which follows the "Collectivist Model" and its accompanying plethora of laws and regulations, reminiscent of a more totalitarian type government.
Fact is, that military style tactics are becoming more the norm and cooperative training and operations with federal "law enforcement", utilizing "military style" tactics and training, is increasing exponentially.
Fact is, innocent people do get shot at times and wrong addresses are entered at times.
Fact is, that there is danger to police in the performance of our duties and that SWAT type raids are appropriate "SOME" of the time, but far less than what actually occurs
Another active full time officer here, and I have to agree with anything in that post
'Respect' is a word thrown about pretty often ..we are supposed to respect the uniform, you see.
Well ..I make up my own mind about what I respect.
The good Captain hit the nail on the head yet again ..as he generally does.
Peace Officer ?
My utmost respect and admiration for doing a dirty, stinking job ..dealing with the underbelly daily.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
quote:Originally posted by shooter4
I can't read all the BS in these threads and the responses.
If the law gets the wrong address and breaks into my house in the wee hours of the morning. I will fire back because I have no idea they are actually the law.
Besides, I know I've done nothing wrong to bring them here. I have to assume its jamal/padro and his buds posing as police.
That's my feelings too, and I'm a Cop. MY door gets kicked in a 4 am and I'm shooting.
There was a case here over 20 years ago where every agency in my county was looking for a serial rapist. We knew who he was, just couldn't find him. One agency gets some info from an informant he's at a residence just outside their jurisdiction. So they get ONE of our Deputies to go with them to serve the search warrant.
The Police Officer running the show made so many errors that night I can't count them, including having a rookie officer at the front door to be the first to go in the house.
The rookie receives via his radio to "Go on in," and starts kicking in the front door of the small, shotgun style house. As he's kicking in the door, the inhabitants, a retired couple in their 80's, woke up. As the wife is trying to use the phone to call for help, the husband grabs his .38 and heads down the hallway towards his front door.
The old house is well built and the rookie is still trying to kick in the door. The old man in the house starts firing his .38, just as the door pops open.
As the door pops open, a round from the old man's .38 hits the doorframe next to the rookie's head. He fires two rounds back at the old man with his .357. One round misses, but the other strikes the old man in the center of his throat, just under his adam's apple, killing him.
The rapist had never been to that house in his life.
Bad case all the way around. The city paid out millions and because the county had that one deputy there they paid out a hefty sum also.
The officers? Somehow the officer in charge kept his job, retiring a few years later. About 6 months after he retired he died from a heart attack.
The rookie that killed the old man? Although he was cleared of any wrongdoing, he quit a few months later. (He was as innocent as the old man he killed, only he survived.) He tried a few years later to get back into law enforcement, but for reasons I don't know, quit again. His life since then hasn't been at all what he though it would be when he was a rookie cop, before that night.
I know there are Cop-Haters here, and we all know who they are. Experts at being a Cop after watching TV and reading the internet.
I don't know much about more than being a Cop, but I do know this:
If I make a bad mistake at work, it could cost me, or someone else, their life. If that happens, I won't be able to go back to the scene and fix my mistake with a little PVC pipe glue!
I do respect your positions, and do pledge to stop and render assistance in the event I see one of you getting you * kicked by the side of the road. (To ensure no confusion, I would render assistance to the LEO, not the crook.)[:)]
I do, however, think that lt496 has hit the nail on the head. The increased militancy of Law Enforcement is contributing to the increased danger that LEO's face, as well as contributing to the increase level of suspicion that good men hold towards them.
Innumerable cases of mistaken forced entry;
The photo of a frighted Elian Gonzales staring at the business end of an AR while in his uncles arms before his kidnapping;
The shooting of Samuel Weaver in the back as he fled, and the sniping of his mother Vicki with babe in arms;
The photo-op assault on the Branch Davidians, followed by a military assault because Janet Reno refused to consider the rights of men, women, and children within the compound;
I will not go on, but these incidents strongly suggest that many in Law Enforcement put themselves above the rule of law and that they dismiss the basic tenant of freedom and equality of the people they purport to serve. This does not bode well for our republic, and it is the responsibility of Law Enforcement and the courts to ensure that the person and property of the average citizen is valued as highly as that of the state.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by footlong
There were no drug laws 100 years ago.. I dont believe drug laws
have done one thing to make our society any safer or more law abiding. We have four million people behind bars. Most of them
for drugs. We are fighting a drug war in Afghanistan. Been growing
the poppey for ten thousand years. Will be doing it for that much
more. We blame all our ills on drugs. Hence when the word "drugs"
is mentioned all rules go out the window because we are at WAR.
Rememder the old saying "ALLS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR"
I don't know where you get your facts! You must have some special knowledge regarding secret prisons-if so please share. But wow you are wrong!!!! According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (you can look up yourself on the web) as of june 30 2007 there were(read slowly here)
2,299,116 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails. You are about two million off-maybe a secret prison only you know about.
Drugs only account for about 20% of prison population.
Again Wow are you out there!!! Most are there for violent and property crimes. Where are you getting these weird facts? Maybe you are using some of the drugs. If you are going to post Hard Facts, those that anyone can look up in seconds (those not on drugs). Please don't make them up, some of us can spot this type of crap a mile away.
Unfortunately mistakes happen and you hear about them quite often when it comes to police raids. I am also like a alot of you in the fact that when I hear a loud noise in the middle of the night I go straight for a firearm which is in close proximity to the bed. I do not think that I would ever hear the words "POLICE" or "POLICE DEPARTMENT SEARCH WARRANT" when someone is kicking down my door. Your first instinct is to retrieve a firearm and protect your family.
quote:Originally posted by kiwibird1
Anyone can bust into a house and yell "police". As I said in the other thread, I have done nothing wrong and will assume an intruder is breaking into my home. They will be greeted as such.
I am sorry if this offends any officers here on the forum. My father is a retired police officer and I have many friends that are law enforcement. I have a lot of respect for these folks and expect the same in return.
Who ever planned this raid and got the wrong home, resulting in the death of an innocent man should be tried in a court of law and held responsible for this.
Right on! The problem is that they will not be tried and held responsible, that is one reason why this continues to happen over and over. Above the law is how they act and are treated. One law for us, and a different law for the scum that lives the lie everyday..the one about upholding the law, etc.
quote:Originally posted by Highball
'Respect' is a word thrown about pretty often ..we are supposed to respect the uniform, you see.
Well ..I make up my own mind about what I respect.
The good Captain hit the nail on the head yet again ..as he generally does.
Peace Officer ?
My utmost respect and admiration for doing a dirty, stinking job ..dealing with the underbelly daily.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
The difference only exists in your head. Show me in any statue in any state, where the two are differentiated. Show me where the two have different job descriptions, in any job description in any state, between "Peace Officer" and "Law Enforcement". Show me any different statute where they are different in stated police powers or duties.
?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
Feel a need to coment on this one. I do not know what the correct course of action when your home is broken in to in the middle of the night. As a person who is basicly a law abiding tax paying citizen, I can think of NO GOOD REASON for ANYONE to be breaking in to my home in the middle of the night. Do you just surender and assume it is the police? This could get you killed by the bad guys. Do you do your best to kill the intruders? If it is the cops you could also get killed or spend the rest of your life in jail if you shoot a cop by mistake. There is something terribly wrong with this country when we are forced into this kind of decision. No one should ever have to make this decision. I pray that I never have to. My first gut reaction will probably to take out any intruder immediately if I am able to and sort out the details later.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
You will NEVER understand the difference.Pointless for me to try.
You just keep right on following orders, like a good little drone.
quote:Originally posted by BT3
Mistakes are made all of the time. It's called human controlability. Wonder how many entries are made each day in this country without incident ?
The real question, the far more important question is how many are made with incident?
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
Hmph. In Denver a few years back, the door was kicked in and the homeowner was shot dead because he had a can of Diet Coke in his hand - the shiny aluminum looked like a gun to the LEO that pulled the trigger.
Oh, and the cops had the wrong address... but let it be known that someone's door is never kicked in for no reason.
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
You don't watch the news do you...it happens all the time.
or cops it happens all the time there too
but I guess that two knocks followed by 6 guys screaming police and knocking the door down with a 100lb key doesn't fall into your definition of "no knock" warrant
The problem with the police profession is the members MUST be recrutied from the human race!!![?]
Much to about nothing. In my 30+ years of LE, and MANY warrant services I do not know of ANY we served at the wrong address or were not justified. The PROBABILITY of any of you being the 'victim' of one of the 'mistakes' you have post here is so low it is silly to be worry about it! This is reality.
We do our best. Would you prefer we stop serving warrants because there is a POSSIBILITY of a mistake being made??? If so you would here people complaining, no screaming, the police are not doing their job!!
Hopefully when these mistakes are made people learn from them and those victimized by the mistakes are treated fairly.
There are a lot of inherent problems with such raids.
Warrants are a legal document legalizing entry...in most cases presented to the subject giving him knowledge of WHO is entering his property and for what reason. In a no knock there is no reasonable way for the subject to verify WHO is comming in his home or why putting both the officers and homeowner at risk.
Early morning raids also provide high risk for both the officers and homeowners. While the officers MAY be able to suprise a homeowner, the confused state caused may as easily cause that homeowners death as we have seen. It is a natural reaction even when confused to protect ones self. That may mean reaching for an object for protection or for clothes or numberous other items. The problem that this causes is that identification of a threat even under perfect lighting is difficult for officers. In low light it is multiplied. In my case if I heard a crash I would first grab for my wire framed glasses. Would I be shot when the officers lights reflected off my frames or lenses which were still in my hand? Very possibly.
I'll throw in my 2 cents:
I couldn't give 2 stuffs if no-knock entries are safer, I could care less for what is safer to an LEO.
The LEO knew there would be danger when they accepted the job, to uphold the law. Constitutional rights are law. The LEO should be willing to risk his/her life to uphold these laws/rights.
At the time the constitution was written, there was no such thing as a no-knock warrant - the warrant would be presented at the scene, similar to serving papers for court appearance.
As to federal drug laws- they are an example of the federal govt overstepping its bounds, and are unconstitutional - state drug laws are ok - but still stupid. Prohibition didn't work, "the war on drugs" doesn't work.
I don't care if knocking gives one time to flush drugs. I would rather err on the side of constitutional rights, than unconstitutional federal laws.
quote:I don't care if knocking gives one time to flush drugs. I would rather err on the side of constitutional rights, than unconstitutional federal laws.
There lies another huge problem. Drug laws are much the same as gun laws...governmental meddling into areas they have no business messing in.
Then compounded by JBTs' smashing in doors.
Like it or not...if a person wishes to destroy themselves with drugs...it becomes your business ONLY when it infringes on you.
When it does that..SHOOT the bustard.
Out in public acting stupid ? See how 15 years in prison helps you out...
Doing drugs in your own home is NOBODIES business.
Selling or giving drugs to Minors ? You get executed..30 days, max to the hanging.
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
There are many cases where the police kick in the wrong door! Then where does that leave the homeowner if he mistakes the police for intruders and opens fire...its a very thin line.
I'd vote for ya!quote:Originally posted by Highball
quote:I don't care if knocking gives one time to flush drugs. I would rather err on the side of constitutional rights, than unconstitutional federal laws.
There lies another huge problem. Drug laws are much the same as gun laws...governmental meddling into areas they have no business messing in.
Then compounded by JBTs' smashing in doors.
Like it or not...if a person wishes to destroy themselves with drugs...it becomes your business ONLY when it infringes on you.
When it does that..SHOOT the bustard.
Out in public acting stupid ? See how 15 years in prison helps you out...
Doing drugs in your own home is NOBODIES business.
Selling or giving drugs to Minors ? You get executed..30 days, max to the hanging.
Dead.Thats where that leaves the homeowner.quote:Originally posted by Chris8161
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
There are many cases where the police kick in the wrong door! Then where does that leave the homeowner if he mistakes the police for intruders and opens fire...its a very thin line.
Can't you read, or is it you just don't care about the reality of this.[xx(]
Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
This is living proof, Common sense is dead in this world.[;)]
If you want to get upset about something, pick something which has some PROBALITY of causing you harm!![:p]
quote:Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
Lightning is an act of God..or Nature, if you prefer.
Allowing other human being the power to raid citizens at will is repugnant to the freedoms we are SUPPOSED to be living under.
A VAST difference. The difference between birth...and death by a dictator.
Many of you prefer the death by dictator..as long as YOU are the spear-point of that corruption of justice.
Why don't you do that?? I will gladly set back and watch!!![}:)]
The reason you don't 'wait' is becasue when you have the 'persons' and/or 'evidence' in a location you can better control the hazzards involved. But you can't expect those who are guided by 'emotion' to use logic to figure this out!!! This process did not just happen. It evolved out of years of experance. Many mistakes were made, many people were killed and/or injured (on both sides of the law), and we found there are times when this type of warrant service is the BEST way to proceed FOR ALL CONSERNED. Is it perfect?? NO! Are there some mistakes made? YES!
Is there a better way to handle these 'special' situations? NO!!!
Sometimes reality is hard to except, but it does not change the fact it is reality!!
"the power to raid citzens at will" Where do you live??? Not in the USA. Like I said, 'emotion' speaking, not logic. Do you think it is easy to get a no knock warrant?? If so think agin. There may be some places where it is easier than others, but every where I have been involved in LE it was not easy to get a no knock warrant. And MANY applications for them are turned down, so get your FACTS correct and leave your emotions out of it!!![:(!]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Can't you read, or is it you just don't care about the reality of this.[xx(]
Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
This is living proof, Common sense is dead in this world.[;)]
If you want to get upset about something, pick something which has some PROBALITY of causing you harm!![:p]
From small minds comes small thoughts, if it does not effect you, don't worry about it? So the police have gotten to much power, and abuse that power, and thumb their noses at the law of the land, if it does not effect your door, don't worry about it? If you actually took this thought pattern to it logical conclusion, there would not be much you should worry about, nor comment on. Being an American, you should be worry about the state of the nation, not your own little front door.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
"the power to raid citzens at will" Where do you live??? Not in the USA. Like I said, 'emotion' speaking, not logic. Do you think it is easy to get a no knock warrant?? If so think agin. There may be some places where it is easier than others, but every where I have been involved in LE it was not easy to get a no knock warrant. And MANY applications for them are turned down, so get your FACTS correct and leave your emotions out of it!!![:(!]
Small time local cops, friends of the Sheriff, and the like seldom go to the Secret Courts to obtain warrants, this is left to the "real police". Secret Courts you ask..yes indeed! FBI uses them all the time. "if so think agin" (I believe you mean again), but this is the type of errors you bring to the table, no wonder you have problems getting these warrants. I can see by your post, how easy it could be to type in a wrong digit, or forget a digit and go to the wrong house! Case closed
I guess you just do not get it Jo!! Do you think you know a better, safier way to handle these 'special' situations?? If so what do you base your methods on.. Your 'small minds' comment proof you are talking emotion, not reality or logic. Part of the problem with this and many other LE issues is we have to deal with people who know absolutly NOTHING about what they are talking about!!
Like I said Jo. What do you base your opinions/beleives on?? The applications for the NK warrants I was involved in REQUIRED two levels of supervision above the applicant review and confirm info to include the location/s and name/s. Then our DA's office would review the application before we went before the judge (no secret courts where I worked). THEN prior to service, officers (both the one applying for the warrant and others not involved in the application) would check the location to make sure the address and physical description matched.
I think some of you have been doing your research on this the 'Hollywood' way!!
This thread illustrates why police work has taken a serious wrong turn in the recent past. If a cop came to my door and simply showed me a warrant, I would honor the warrant. If a pack of Darth Vader Cub Scouts announced their presence by kicking in my door, I would kick back. I don't care what country they belong to, any invader into my home is a Bad Guy.
This is exactly why our local governments are so important. It's alot easier to elect a new mayor, and clean up a city's police force, than it is to elect a new president to clean up the ATF & FBI.
Keep the control local, and these incidents are guaranteed to stay isolated. Give up the control to federal thugs, and watch them as they leave town giving you the bird, and leaving tire marks on your constitution.
Comments
Do cops sometimes do something stupid? Yeah, sure, just like everyone sometimes does something stupid.
I don't know any profession: engineers, physicians, musicians, lawyers, plumbers or teachers which is always perfect, every time.
That said, from the police officers I know, I'd rank them very high on common sense and professionalism, and none of them get paid what they're worth.
Resist arrest, even if it's unwarranted, point a gun at a cop - makes you really stupid. I've heard it called "suicide by cop".
The solution to the problem is to de-criminalize drugs.
That would also free up some 100,000 plus policeman to protect and serve their communities from real crime.
By thye way, there should be no gun laws.
Doug
Now if they could just work out the legistics of taxing those drugs, and bypassing the FDA for recreational drugs... That just might work.
have done one thing to make our society any safer or more law abiding. We have four million people behind bars. Most of them
for drugs. We are fighting a drug war in Afghanistan. Been growing
the poppey for ten thousand years. Will be doing it for that much
more. We blame all our ills on drugs. Hence when the word "drugs"
is mentioned all rules go out the window because we are at WAR.
Rememder the old saying "ALLS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR"
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
Most state laws require you to submit to arrest when you know that it is the police that are entering your home.
No knock warrants were (when I was working) very hard to get. You had to show cause that violent resistance was likely for a knock warrant.
And statistics show that a 4:00 AM entry time is more likely to give entry teams the edge on securing all occupants safely.
Alpine, I can assure you that you are wasting your time attempting to justify proven tactical entries. As far as many here are concerned, their rights place them above the law (even if the entry is warranted and just). I'm also convinced that the "noise makers" on this forum don't have a clue of what being in law enforcement requires.
I have a clue, do I count?
Being a pansy whining soap box stander isn't part of what makes a good policeman (be it a SWAT member, or simply walking a beat). Those same people likely couldn't make it through training, let alone become "One of _____*_______ finest." *
I did, do I count?
You fill in the blank. [;)]
Jim
A couple facts from an active, full-time Peace Officer....
Fact is, no-knock warrants are easier to get nowadays than ever before.
Fact is, that "tactical" entries and "SWAT" served warrants are more common and standard than ever before.
Fact is, that SWAT/Tactical Teams have proliferated far beyond what can be justified by changes in society.
Fact is, that the "law enforcement" mentality, as opposed to the "Peace Officer" outlook, has practically taken over certain segments of the world of policing.
Fact is, there is a distinct difference between "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer".
Fact is, that America's Republic and our society is designed to properly accommodate the "Peace Officer" role, which is supportive of the "Individualism Model" and its requisite personal liberties -vs- the LEO role, which follows the "Collectivist Model" and its accompanying plethora of laws and regulations, reminiscent of a more totalitarian type government.
Fact is, that military style tactics are becoming more the norm and cooperative training and operations with federal "law enforcement", utilizing "military style" tactics and training, is increasing exponentially.
Fact is, innocent people do get shot at times and wrong addresses are entered at times.
Fact is, that there is danger to police in the performance of our duties and that SWAT type raids are appropriate "SOME" of the time, but far less than what actually occurs.
If the law gets the wrong address and breaks into my house in the wee hours of the morning. I will fire back because I have no idea they are actually the law.
Besides, I know I've done nothing wrong to bring them here. I have to assume its jamal/padro and his buds posing as police.
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
I am not justifying anything. I'm just explaining the facts.
I know better than to try to change anyone's mind here.
Hey it's just the internet.
For goodness sake Alpine, don't feel like people will dislike you because "I" attempted to back you up. [;)] The folks here that are stuck on an intentional misinterpretation of a comment I made "many moons ago" can continue their ill thoughts towards me. I could care less about any of those whining earth pimples. They mean nothing to me and know nothing about my background, nor my efforts to correct errors made by others. I'm a proud American that has done more for my cities, state and country than most of the folks that dislike me here. [^]
In regard to "it's just the internet" comment, there are many here that are giants on-line and puny little cowards in person. I know of several on this forum (and they know who I refer to) that would wet their pants if I walked up to them and introduced myself as "HobbyGuy" from the GB forums. [:D]
Lastly, thanks pipe7 for your comments. [^]
Jim
funny thing about this forums, is it is for gun owners
A couple facts from an active, full-time Peace Officer....
Fact is, no-knock warrants are easier to get nowadays than ever before.
Fact is, that "tactical" entries and "SWAT" served warrants are more common and standard than ever before.
Fact is, that SWAT/Tactical Teams have proliferated far beyond what can be justified by changes in society.
Fact is, that the "law enforcement" mentality, as opposed to the "Peace Officer" outlook, has practically taken over certain segments of the world of policing.
Fact is, there is a distinct difference between "Law Enforcement Officer" and "Peace Officer".
Fact is, that America's Republic and our society is designed to properly accommodate the "Peace Officer" role, which is supportive of the "Individualism Model" and its requisite personal liberties -vs- the LEO role, which follows the "Collectivist Model" and its accompanying plethora of laws and regulations, reminiscent of a more totalitarian type government.
Fact is, that military style tactics are becoming more the norm and cooperative training and operations with federal "law enforcement", utilizing "military style" tactics and training, is increasing exponentially.
Fact is, innocent people do get shot at times and wrong addresses are entered at times.
Fact is, that there is danger to police in the performance of our duties and that SWAT type raids are appropriate "SOME" of the time, but far less than what actually occurs
Another active full time officer here, and I have to agree with anything in that post
Well ..I make up my own mind about what I respect.
The good Captain hit the nail on the head yet again ..as he generally does.
Peace Officer ?
My utmost respect and admiration for doing a dirty, stinking job ..dealing with the underbelly daily.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
I can't read all the BS in these threads and the responses.
If the law gets the wrong address and breaks into my house in the wee hours of the morning. I will fire back because I have no idea they are actually the law.
Besides, I know I've done nothing wrong to bring them here. I have to assume its jamal/padro and his buds posing as police.
That's my feelings too, and I'm a Cop. MY door gets kicked in a 4 am and I'm shooting.
There was a case here over 20 years ago where every agency in my county was looking for a serial rapist. We knew who he was, just couldn't find him. One agency gets some info from an informant he's at a residence just outside their jurisdiction. So they get ONE of our Deputies to go with them to serve the search warrant.
The Police Officer running the show made so many errors that night I can't count them, including having a rookie officer at the front door to be the first to go in the house.
The rookie receives via his radio to "Go on in," and starts kicking in the front door of the small, shotgun style house. As he's kicking in the door, the inhabitants, a retired couple in their 80's, woke up. As the wife is trying to use the phone to call for help, the husband grabs his .38 and heads down the hallway towards his front door.
The old house is well built and the rookie is still trying to kick in the door. The old man in the house starts firing his .38, just as the door pops open.
As the door pops open, a round from the old man's .38 hits the doorframe next to the rookie's head. He fires two rounds back at the old man with his .357. One round misses, but the other strikes the old man in the center of his throat, just under his adam's apple, killing him.
The rapist had never been to that house in his life.
Bad case all the way around. The city paid out millions and because the county had that one deputy there they paid out a hefty sum also.
The officers? Somehow the officer in charge kept his job, retiring a few years later. About 6 months after he retired he died from a heart attack.
The rookie that killed the old man? Although he was cleared of any wrongdoing, he quit a few months later. (He was as innocent as the old man he killed, only he survived.) He tried a few years later to get back into law enforcement, but for reasons I don't know, quit again. His life since then hasn't been at all what he though it would be when he was a rookie cop, before that night.
I know there are Cop-Haters here, and we all know who they are. Experts at being a Cop after watching TV and reading the internet.
I don't know much about more than being a Cop, but I do know this:
If I make a bad mistake at work, it could cost me, or someone else, their life. If that happens, I won't be able to go back to the scene and fix my mistake with a little PVC pipe glue!
.
I do respect your positions, and do pledge to stop and render assistance in the event I see one of you getting you * kicked by the side of the road. (To ensure no confusion, I would render assistance to the LEO, not the crook.)[:)]
I do, however, think that lt496 has hit the nail on the head. The increased militancy of Law Enforcement is contributing to the increased danger that LEO's face, as well as contributing to the increase level of suspicion that good men hold towards them.
Innumerable cases of mistaken forced entry;
The photo of a frighted Elian Gonzales staring at the business end of an AR while in his uncles arms before his kidnapping;
The shooting of Samuel Weaver in the back as he fled, and the sniping of his mother Vicki with babe in arms;
The photo-op assault on the Branch Davidians, followed by a military assault because Janet Reno refused to consider the rights of men, women, and children within the compound;
I will not go on, but these incidents strongly suggest that many in Law Enforcement put themselves above the rule of law and that they dismiss the basic tenant of freedom and equality of the people they purport to serve. This does not bode well for our republic, and it is the responsibility of Law Enforcement and the courts to ensure that the person and property of the average citizen is valued as highly as that of the state.
Brad Steele
There were no drug laws 100 years ago.. I dont believe drug laws
have done one thing to make our society any safer or more law abiding. We have four million people behind bars. Most of them
for drugs. We are fighting a drug war in Afghanistan. Been growing
the poppey for ten thousand years. Will be doing it for that much
more. We blame all our ills on drugs. Hence when the word "drugs"
is mentioned all rules go out the window because we are at WAR.
Rememder the old saying "ALLS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR"
I don't know where you get your facts! You must have some special knowledge regarding secret prisons-if so please share. But wow you are wrong!!!! According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (you can look up yourself on the web) as of june 30 2007 there were(read slowly here)
2,299,116 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails. You are about two million off-maybe a secret prison only you know about.
Drugs only account for about 20% of prison population.
Again Wow are you out there!!! Most are there for violent and property crimes. Where are you getting these weird facts? Maybe you are using some of the drugs. If you are going to post Hard Facts, those that anyone can look up in seconds (those not on drugs). Please don't make them up, some of us can spot this type of crap a mile away.
Anyone can bust into a house and yell "police". As I said in the other thread, I have done nothing wrong and will assume an intruder is breaking into my home. They will be greeted as such.
I am sorry if this offends any officers here on the forum. My father is a retired police officer and I have many friends that are law enforcement. I have a lot of respect for these folks and expect the same in return.
Who ever planned this raid and got the wrong home, resulting in the death of an innocent man should be tried in a court of law and held responsible for this.
Right on! The problem is that they will not be tried and held responsible, that is one reason why this continues to happen over and over. Above the law is how they act and are treated. One law for us, and a different law for the scum that lives the lie everyday..the one about upholding the law, etc.
'Respect' is a word thrown about pretty often ..we are supposed to respect the uniform, you see.
Well ..I make up my own mind about what I respect.
The good Captain hit the nail on the head yet again ..as he generally does.
Peace Officer ?
My utmost respect and admiration for doing a dirty, stinking job ..dealing with the underbelly daily.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
The difference only exists in your head. Show me in any statue in any state, where the two are differentiated. Show me where the two have different job descriptions, in any job description in any state, between "Peace Officer" and "Law Enforcement". Show me any different statute where they are different in stated police powers or duties.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
You will NEVER understand the difference.Pointless for me to try.
You just keep right on following orders, like a good little drone.
Mistakes are made all of the time. It's called human controlability. Wonder how many entries are made each day in this country without incident ?
The real question, the far more important question is how many are made with incident?
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
Hmph. In Denver a few years back, the door was kicked in and the homeowner was shot dead because he had a can of Diet Coke in his hand - the shiny aluminum looked like a gun to the LEO that pulled the trigger.
Oh, and the cops had the wrong address... but let it be known that someone's door is never kicked in for no reason.
http://www.5280.com/blog/?p=1068
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
You don't watch the news do you...it happens all the time.
or cops it happens all the time there too
but I guess that two knocks followed by 6 guys screaming police and knocking the door down with a 100lb key doesn't fall into your definition of "no knock" warrant
Much to about nothing. In my 30+ years of LE, and MANY warrant services I do not know of ANY we served at the wrong address or were not justified. The PROBABILITY of any of you being the 'victim' of one of the 'mistakes' you have post here is so low it is silly to be worry about it! This is reality.
We do our best. Would you prefer we stop serving warrants because there is a POSSIBILITY of a mistake being made??? If so you would here people complaining, no screaming, the police are not doing their job!!
Hopefully when these mistakes are made people learn from them and those victimized by the mistakes are treated fairly.
Warrants are a legal document legalizing entry...in most cases presented to the subject giving him knowledge of WHO is entering his property and for what reason. In a no knock there is no reasonable way for the subject to verify WHO is comming in his home or why putting both the officers and homeowner at risk.
Early morning raids also provide high risk for both the officers and homeowners. While the officers MAY be able to suprise a homeowner, the confused state caused may as easily cause that homeowners death as we have seen. It is a natural reaction even when confused to protect ones self. That may mean reaching for an object for protection or for clothes or numberous other items. The problem that this causes is that identification of a threat even under perfect lighting is difficult for officers. In low light it is multiplied. In my case if I heard a crash I would first grab for my wire framed glasses. Would I be shot when the officers lights reflected off my frames or lenses which were still in my hand? Very possibly.
I wish I knew the answer.
I couldn't give 2 stuffs if no-knock entries are safer, I could care less for what is safer to an LEO.
The LEO knew there would be danger when they accepted the job, to uphold the law. Constitutional rights are law. The LEO should be willing to risk his/her life to uphold these laws/rights.
At the time the constitution was written, there was no such thing as a no-knock warrant - the warrant would be presented at the scene, similar to serving papers for court appearance.
As to federal drug laws- they are an example of the federal govt overstepping its bounds, and are unconstitutional - state drug laws are ok - but still stupid. Prohibition didn't work, "the war on drugs" doesn't work.
I don't care if knocking gives one time to flush drugs. I would rather err on the side of constitutional rights, than unconstitutional federal laws.
There lies another huge problem. Drug laws are much the same as gun laws...governmental meddling into areas they have no business messing in.
Then compounded by JBTs' smashing in doors.
Like it or not...if a person wishes to destroy themselves with drugs...it becomes your business ONLY when it infringes on you.
When it does that..SHOOT the bustard.
Out in public acting stupid ? See how 15 years in prison helps you out...
Doing drugs in your own home is NOBODIES business.
Selling or giving drugs to Minors ? You get executed..30 days, max to the hanging.
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
There are many cases where the police kick in the wrong door! Then where does that leave the homeowner if he mistakes the police for intruders and opens fire...its a very thin line.
quote:I don't care if knocking gives one time to flush drugs. I would rather err on the side of constitutional rights, than unconstitutional federal laws.
There lies another huge problem. Drug laws are much the same as gun laws...governmental meddling into areas they have no business messing in.
Then compounded by JBTs' smashing in doors.
Like it or not...if a person wishes to destroy themselves with drugs...it becomes your business ONLY when it infringes on you.
When it does that..SHOOT the bustard.
Out in public acting stupid ? See how 15 years in prison helps you out...
Doing drugs in your own home is NOBODIES business.
Selling or giving drugs to Minors ? You get executed..30 days, max to the hanging.
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Usually when the police break into your home yelling "Police!" they have a warrant, either to search or to arrest, or both. I've never heard of someone's door being kicked in for no reason.
There are many cases where the police kick in the wrong door! Then where does that leave the homeowner if he mistakes the police for intruders and opens fire...its a very thin line.
Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
This is living proof, Common sense is dead in this world.[;)]
If you want to get upset about something, pick something which has some PROBALITY of causing you harm!![:p]
With all that reconnaissance and experts doing it why don't they get the bad guy someplace else and stop all this bs no knock anti American crap.
Then with their warrants, go and knock and search the house.
Lightning is an act of God..or Nature, if you prefer.
Allowing other human being the power to raid citizens at will is repugnant to the freedoms we are SUPPOSED to be living under.
A VAST difference. The difference between birth...and death by a dictator.
Many of you prefer the death by dictator..as long as YOU are the spear-point of that corruption of justice.
The reason you don't 'wait' is becasue when you have the 'persons' and/or 'evidence' in a location you can better control the hazzards involved. But you can't expect those who are guided by 'emotion' to use logic to figure this out!!! This process did not just happen. It evolved out of years of experance. Many mistakes were made, many people were killed and/or injured (on both sides of the law), and we found there are times when this type of warrant service is the BEST way to proceed FOR ALL CONSERNED. Is it perfect?? NO! Are there some mistakes made? YES!
Is there a better way to handle these 'special' situations? NO!!!
Sometimes reality is hard to except, but it does not change the fact it is reality!!
Can't you read, or is it you just don't care about the reality of this.[xx(]
Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
This is living proof, Common sense is dead in this world.[;)]
If you want to get upset about something, pick something which has some PROBALITY of causing you harm!![:p]
From small minds comes small thoughts, if it does not effect you, don't worry about it? So the police have gotten to much power, and abuse that power, and thumb their noses at the law of the land, if it does not effect your door, don't worry about it? If you actually took this thought pattern to it logical conclusion, there would not be much you should worry about, nor comment on. Being an American, you should be worry about the state of the nation, not your own little front door.
"the power to raid citzens at will" Where do you live??? Not in the USA. Like I said, 'emotion' speaking, not logic. Do you think it is easy to get a no knock warrant?? If so think agin. There may be some places where it is easier than others, but every where I have been involved in LE it was not easy to get a no knock warrant. And MANY applications for them are turned down, so get your FACTS correct and leave your emotions out of it!!![:(!]
Small time local cops, friends of the Sheriff, and the like seldom go to the Secret Courts to obtain warrants, this is left to the "real police". Secret Courts you ask..yes indeed! FBI uses them all the time. "if so think agin" (I believe you mean again), but this is the type of errors you bring to the table, no wonder you have problems getting these warrants. I can see by your post, how easy it could be to type in a wrong digit, or forget a digit and go to the wrong house! Case closed
I think some of you have been doing your research on this the 'Hollywood' way!!
Whatever happened to Sheriff Andy?
Keep the control local, and these incidents are guaranteed to stay isolated. Give up the control to federal thugs, and watch them as they leave town giving you the bird, and leaving tire marks on your constitution.
Ben