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Perhaps the greatest strength this country once had was the simply fact that local and state governments were superior to the Federal Government by virtue of the 10th Amendment.
As we morph into a 'protect me at all costs' collective, we not only diminish the authority of the states and municipalities, we are forced to accept a nationalized version of law enforcement.
What worked for G-men in their quest to contain Capone is not what works on a local level. The militarization of local law enforcement, funded in part by the Dept. of Homeland Security, carries with it not only the aggressiveness inherent with a militarized unit, but also a reduction in the local control of these groups.
Again, well stated.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
I guess most of you just don't get it!!![:(!]
1. We, as LEO, don't 'pick on' people or give false info and get warrants to 'get' you citizens.
2. NK warrants are the exception, not the norm. For every NK warrant issued there are hundrads if not thousands of knock and announce warrants issued.
3. NK warrants are not taken lightly by those in the LE profession or the legal profession, or the judges. Becasue these FEW mistakes cause so much harm and get so much press and cause this unreasonable fear (we are seeing here and now) much care is taken to get it right. We do not want these mistakes to ever happen.
4. NK warrants are issued ONLY in situtions where there is a well proven need for this type of enforcement. This tactic is a well proven method of SAFLEY handeling, by limiting the location and using overwhelming force, VERY DANGEROUS situatuions and people.[:)]
RR, the probability of you, assuming you are not a very dangerous criminal, have a NK warrant executed on your home is so remote it is off the scale of probability! But you do what you feel is necessary, I would!!
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Like I said Jo. What do you base your opinions/beleives on?? The applications for the NK warrants I was involved in REQUIRED two levels of supervision above the applicant review and confirm info to include the location/s and name/s. Then our DA's office would review the application before we went before the judge (no secret courts where I worked). THEN prior to service, officers (both the one applying for the warrant and others not involved in the application) would check the location to make sure the address and physical description matched.
I think some of you have been doing your research on this the 'Hollywood' way!!
No secret courts where you worked? How do you know? You just weren't in on the special group. 10,000s of Secret Warrants have been issued by Secret Courts-do a little research, not your hollywood crap, by real research, you'll find out we in the U.S. now have fully up and operational secret courts, under the Clinton Admin, their powers[the admin/fed LE] were greatly increased and have just gotten worse. I don't know how many warrants, secret or not 'Barney' served, that has little to do with the discussion, rather our rights as Americans, and the erosion there of, and the complicity of LE in the chipping away America. This is nothing to be proud of.
If they (the courts) are so secert how do you know about them???[;)]
You need to come back to reality!!
Being prepared for the unexpected is resonsable.
Expecting the unexpected is a mental illness.[;)]
The thread was started to explore the Rights of the Police vs. that of the Citizen in this particular case. The fact that NK warrants are not the norm really does not come into play.
The fact is that NK warrants have been executed wrongly and innocent people have been damaged. The question was what rights do people have in this case, as compared to the rights they should have.
To put in in plain language:
I am a law abiding citizen. If a team of police officers bust down my door when they are really looking for my neighbor, am I at fault if I shoot them down?
I suggest I am not. Some suggest I am. I still suggest I am not.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Don;
Were I sitting on your jury (the odds of you avoiding an 'accident' on the way to jail being slim, of course) you would be INNOCENT..and a hero besides.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
If they (the courts) are so secert how do you know about them???[;)]
You need to come back to reality!!
Being prepared for the unexpected is resonsable.
Expecting the unexpected is a mental illness.[;)]
From your original post I thought you showed a lack of intelligence, this post removes all doubt. Did you do any research? No, Your a cop you know everything already! Anyone else would have at least googled Secret Courts and found out if I knew what I was talking about, or if you were just ignorant. I can't imagine you as a witness for the prosecution! A child could demonstrate to a jury your stupidity. The DoD used secret and even top secret and above codes, your response:"Well ifin they is so secret how is it you know abouts them". And you are the type of person we should feel good about knowing you may have NK warrants to our homes? Your a joke! Take 10 seconds and look up Secret Courts- you may learn something for the first time in years.
Don,
Each case will be determined on the totality of the circumstances of the specific incident.
That said. If you were the 'victim' of a 'mistake' made by well meaning 'police' and you get a lawyer you will probably never have to work again. [;)]
Police do not have 'rights' when it comes to enforcemnet of the law. As far as that goes police do not have rights the rest of society have. Cops are guilty until proven inocent due to this emotion and unreasonable fear displayed right on this thread.
The people, including those suspected of crimes, have the 'rights'. If a LEO needs to take action which would violate these 'rights' he MUST prove this need to a judge, UNLESS he has and can articulate some aggervating curcumstances which would require him to act without delay, and then he would still have to prove it after the fact. But what we are descussing here are NK warrants which are only issued after much adue.
If the police do execute a NK warrant and the person who is being ' mistakenly victimized' uses force aginst the officers and he knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legaly wrong. If we, LOE's, makeing a mistake or not, are making an arrest the use of the force by those we are acting to arrest only aggervates the situation and as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply aginst me) if necessary.
Most juristictions require the person submit to the authority of the police, even if there is a mistake, and settle it in court (civil and/or criminal)not on the street. There are some statutes on the books which state a citizen may defend themselfes aginist the police if this action is 'intentionaly and wrongly' commited. This would apply to a cop miss using his authority to victimize a person. This very seldom occures, and the proof of this has to be overwhelming if the use of force is involved.
The word 'fear' is being bandied about with a great deal of satisfaction by some.
I think perhaps `Outrage' may well be a better term.
Outrage at a Beast that is rapidly escalating its' war against citizens to the breaking point.
The British didn't learn that in time...and I see NOTHING to convince me that the present `British' have learned a damn thing, either.
I think that as these incidents increase exponentially...there will come a backlash.
That backlash will take the form of piles of dead bodies one of these days...and the honest citizen will not be at the bottom of that pile...as they are now.
Highball,
This sounds like a vent/rant to me. What makes you think this is on the increase?? I haven't noticed the use of NK warrants increasing nor have I seen the 'mistakes' we were discussing increasing, enlighten me, please![?]
quote:What makes you think this is on the increase?? I haven't noticed the use of NK warrants increasing nor have I seen the 'mistakes' we were discussing increasing
You make a mistake if you think the sole cause of angst in America is JBTs kicking in doors.
That is merely ONE aspect of a basket of evil being shoved down our throats.
'Respect' is a word thrown about pretty often ..we are supposed to respect the uniform, you see.
Well ..I make up my own mind about what I respect.
The good Captain hit the nail on the head yet again ..as he generally does.
Peace Officer ?
My utmost respect and admiration for doing a dirty, stinking job ..dealing with the underbelly daily.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
The difference only exists in your head. Show me in any statue in any state, where the two are differentiated. Show me where the two have different job descriptions, in any job description in any state, between "Peace Officer" and "Law Enforcement". Show me any different statute where they are different in stated police powers or duties.
Alpine,
I believe what Highball was eluding to was a difference in the mindest of a "Peace Officer" as opposed to a "Law Enforcement Officer."
Example:
Traffic stop: You pull over a minivan with out of state tags. The van has an inoperable driver's side brake light. The occupants are a man, his wife, and two kids vacationing in your state. The driver is very candid and courteous. When you first make contact, he advises you he is carrying a pistol in the glove box. The driver does not have a CCL.
Traffic stop: You pull over a minivan with out of state tags. The van has an inoperable driver's side brake light. The occupants are a man, his wife, and two kids vacationing in your state. The driver is very candid and courteous. When you first make contact, he advises you he is carrying a pistol in the glove box. The driver does not have a CCL.
What do you, as an officer, do?
This is Texas, by God! In Texas, travelers can go armed in their vehicles, so I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
This is Texas, by God! In Texas, travelers can go armed in their vehicles, so I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
David,
Good answer, and a perfect example of the "Peace Officer" mindset.[:D][;)]
In Kalif. carrying a concealed handgun is only a misdemeanor. Hardly worth the effort to arrest. Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
And by the way I was LAW ENFORCEMENT for 20 years. I could give a ____p about any perceived difference that exists only in your mind.
?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
quote:Originally posted by CA sucks
I'll throw in my 2 cents:
I couldn't give 2 stuffs if no-knock entries are safer, I could care less for what is safer to an LEO.
The LEO knew there would be danger when they accepted the job, to uphold the law. Constitutional rights are law. The LEO should be willing to risk his/her life to uphold these laws/rights.
Pretty much how I feel. Police are under paid and over worked, yet I have never asked anyone to do that job. It is their decision. I beleive police have way to much power and abuse it in a mind boggling amount.
I give no more or less trust or respect to a police officer then I would to Joe blow walking down the street. That uniform just doesn't mean crap to me anymore as far as safety or a good person. I've seen it abused at a constant rate personally.
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
In Kalif. carrying a concealed handgun is only a misdemeanor. Hardly worth the effort to arrest. Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
This makes an excellent illustration of the difference in mindset between a Peace Office and a LEO.
It isn't about "effort" sir, it is about a fundamental right and the right of an individual to be free of government interference when committing NO bad act.
It isn't about what some liberal/collectivist/fat fluck in the legislature decided was wrong, it is about what is "right" and what should be left to the individual.
Since some collectivist fat flucks decided that something that properly should be a free choice is now "against the law", a Peace Officer weighs the rightness of such "law" vs. an actual "bad act" having been committed, e.g. misuse of a firearm, rather than its mere possession.
No bad act, no action.
A LEO enforces it because it is the "law".
You seem to be a collectivist LEO and probably do not even realize it.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
If there is no "bad act" being committed, why don't you keep your speculations, distrust of individuals and unnecessary prying questions, about what an individual and a parent plans on doing, to yourself.
As for me, I'd be keeping my gun ready and within access in any hotel I was staying in and I bet you would too.
As a LEO, you think what you proposed asking is your business, I say it is none of your business.
A Peace Officer keeps the peace and does not intrude into the lives of individuals beyond what is necessary and unless and until some "bad act" is committed.
In your scenario, there is no breach of the peace, so no enforcement action, or LEO nosiness about where in a hotel a person is going to keep a firearm, is appropriate.
And by the way I was LAW ENFORCEMENT for 20 years. I could give a ____p about any perceived difference that exists only in your mind.
Good for you sir!
You seem to be a "poster child" for illustrating the LEO mindset.
I'll be happy to debate you here, for all to see, to illustrate the Peace Officer "mindset" that you seem to think non-existent.
I "AM" and have been a peace officer for longer than that and it isn't a perceived difference, it is a factual and distinct difference in how a cop views and acts within his proper role in society.
Glad to dissect the issue if you wish, but I've done it enough times that it gets tiring to have to repeatedly point out that ones oath to "support and defend the Constitution" supersedes one's obligation to whatever "enforcement" training and mentality one is taught.
In Kalif. carrying a concealed handgun is only a misdemeanor. Hardly worth the effort to arrest. Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
And by the way I was LAW ENFORCEMENT for 20 years. I could give a ____p about any perceived difference that exists only in your mind.
Alpine, you answered my question. Now, compare your answer with the one given by David, and you shall see the difference in mindset.
Nunn:
I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
Alpine:
Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
Why would you "make" him put the pistol in the trunk, thereby stripping him of his means to a speedy defense? When you were an officer, did you carry your sidearm in the trunk? No, it was on your side, where it could be deployed hastily. Shouldn't this gentleman have the same opportunity?
Why would you automatically assume that if this gentleman keeps the pistol in the motel room, that an accidental shooting will occur? Shouldn't he have the same capability to defend himself/his family in the room as he does in his vehicle?
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Don,
Each case will be determined on the totality of the circumstances of the specific incident.
That said. If you were the 'victim' of a 'mistake' made by well meaning 'police' and you get a lawyer you will probably never have to work again. [;)]
Police do not have 'rights' when it comes to enforcemnet of the law. As far as that goes police do not have rights the rest of society have. Cops are guilty until proven inocent due to this emotion and unreasonable fear displayed right on this thread.
The people, including those suspected of crimes, have the 'rights'. If a LEO needs to take action which would violate these 'rights' he MUST prove this need to a judge, UNLESS he has and can articulate some aggervating curcumstances which would require him to act without delay, and then he would still have to prove it after the fact. But what we are descussing here are NK warrants which are only issued after much adue.
If the police do execute a NK warrant and the person who is being ' mistakenly victimized' uses force aginst the officers and he knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legaly wrong. If we, LOE's, makeing a mistake or not, are making an arrest the use of the force by those we are acting to arrest only aggervates the situation and as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply aginst me) if necessary.
Most juristictions require the person submit to the authority of the police, even if there is a mistake, and settle it in court (civil and/or criminal)not on the street. There are some statutes on the books which state a citizen may defend themselfes aginist the police if this action is 'intentionaly and wrongly' commited. This would apply to a cop miss using his authority to victimize a person. This very seldom occures, and the proof of this has to be overwhelming if the use of force is involved.
I don't normally pick out typos, but in this conversation, several typographical errors are germane to the conversation.
You don't have just one, you've got EIGHTEEN of them in one response, and it isn't just this post, it is nearly every post you've made in this thread.
Were you writing up a warrant request for someone in my neighborhood, I'd be terrified to know that someone like you was in law enforcement. This is a prime example as to HOW and WHY wrong addresses wind up on warrants and innocent people, who should be safe in their own homes, are killed by the police.
Also, your attitude is what I would classify as typical for LEOs that I have run across. With the exception of a few (David Nunn would be one exception), my experience with LEOs is that they have a chip on their shoulder and have a superiority complex. Your posts lead me to believe that you are no exception to the rule.
Yes when you are dyslicsic, like I am, you can't spell fourchit!! But haveing a MUCH higher IQ makes it worth it!!![8D]
Then the attitude thing. You don't have a clue. My policing methods were to try and keep as many people out of the system as possible. In other words, arrest was a last resort for me. But those who have never had to deal with the general public like you (the clueless) have no idea what it is like to be a cop, LEO, peace officer, trooper, or what ever you name you want to put on it.
Your attacks on me are nothing compared to what we, in the LEO busniness, have to put up daily. I just consider the source, grin and walk away.[;)]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Don,
Each case will be determined on the totality of the circumstances of the specific incident.
That said. If you were the 'victim' of a 'mistake' made by well meaning 'police' and you get a lawyer you will probably never have to work again. [;)]
Police do not have 'rights' when it comes to enforcemnet of the law. As far as that goes police do not have rights the rest of society have. Cops are guilty until proven inocent due to this emotion and unreasonable fear displayed right on this thread.
The people, including those suspected of crimes, have the 'rights'. If a LEO needs to take action which would violate these 'rights' he MUST prove this need to a judge, UNLESS he has and can articulate some aggervating curcumstances which would require him to act without delay, and then he would still have to prove it after the fact. But what we are descussing here are NK warrants which are only issued after much adue.
If the police do execute a NK warrant and the person who is being ' mistakenly victimized' uses force aginst the officers and he knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legaly wrong. If we, LOE's, makeing a mistake or not, are making an arrest the use of the force by those we are acting to arrest only aggervates the situation and as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply aginst me) if necessary.
Most juristictions require the person submit to the authority of the police, even if there is a mistake, and settle it in court (civil and/or criminal)not on the street. There are some statutes on the books which state a citizen may defend themselfes aginist the police if this action is 'intentionaly and wrongly' commited. This would apply to a cop miss using his authority to victimize a person. This very seldom occures, and the proof of this has to be overwhelming if the use of force is involved.
Jim:
Thank you for the reasoned response. It is too bad this thread has degenerated, as I, for one, find this bit of insight interesting and informative.
I would take issue with about half of what you say, but will focus only on one point. You state a subjective 'knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legally wrong' but then state that 'as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply against me) if necessary.' As separate entities, there is not much to argue with, but when put together before dawn, I would hope you see the inconsistency, which is the heart of the question.
A homeowner is awakened to a splintering door jamb with someone screaming 'police' (or what ever it is you say). I get the impression it is your opinion that the homeowner should then 'reasonably know they are police'. This would only be the case if all break-ins were committed by honest people. (Note: Not all burglars are honest.)
If, however, the homeowner chooses to defend himself, you, as the aggressor will then cop the attitude that 'as a person I have the right to defend myself'.
I do not see how this squares in the greater context of the basic rights of the homeowner. In effect, he can be secure in his home unless I invade it, and then any action on his part can be squelched in the framework of self-defense for the invader. If it is the wrong house, he will get free wheelchairs for life, after all.
Regardless of the frequency of these types of occurrences, I am troubled by the attitude of superior rights in this case.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Yes when you are dyslicsic, like I am, you can't spell fourchit!! But haveing a MUCH higher IQ makes it worth it!!![8D]
Then the attitude thing. You don't have a clue. My policing methods were to try and keep as many people out of the system as possible. In other words, arrest was a last resort for me. But those who have never had to deal with the general public like you (the clueless) have no idea what it is like to be a cop, LEO, peace officer, trooper, or what ever you name you want to put on it.
Your attacks on me are nothing compared to what we, in the LEO busniness, have to put up daily. I just consider the source, grin and walk away.[;)]
Cripes man, you're making my point. Could you possibly be any more smug? I think you'd have to really work at it.
I don't deal with the general public? Buddy, you don't have a CLUE what I do for a living nor what I have done for a living, so your suggestion that I don't have a clue is groundless, baseless and disturbing. You're a LEO - do you normally jump to brainless conclusions like this when "investigating" a crime? You should be stripped of your badge and gun!
You're right. I have no clue what it is to be a LEO. Guess what? You don't have a clue what it is like to do what I do, either.
As far as your dyslexia goes, that's a pi$$-poor excuse, especially when the words you compose as a LEO can have an adverse affect on others.
You have the power to enforce the law, you have the power to search, and you have the power to make the lives of innocents miserable and perhaps end prematurely.
Don,
You are talking worst case senerio. This is a lose lose senerio. If it were to occur heads would roll!! I can't tell you what would be the 'right' responce in this case. IF you live in an area where the bad guys MO is to impersonate police and you used force aginst those entering your home you would have some very midagating curcumstances. But if you have no reason to beleive those entering are not police your best chance of survival is to not resist.
One thing I do sugest is to get to know the officers who regulary patrol your neighborhood. This is a win win situation. The 'new' policing method is nothing but using the 'old' method. I made it a point to spend as much time out of the car as possible in the business areas and where there were other gatherings,ie: parks, ball fields, and the like. The biggest problem I had was time. We were so short handed we litterly went from call to call for the last ten years of my active service.
This was an intersting thread and I hope some folks learned something from it. I shows some of the propblems we have to deal with, but in a more controled envirnment, on the street.
Sorry for the spelling, but like I said it is something I have had to deal with my entire life. I do not have the spell check option on this system while on the internet.[;)]
I guess I know what would be the right response, though it apparently is not the correct response. I would, after all, take your tag line to heart.[:)]
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Don,
You are talking worst case senerio. This is a lose lose senerio. If it were to occur heads would roll!! I can't tell you what would be the 'right' responce in this case. IF you live in an area where the bad guys MO is to impersonate police and you used force aginst those entering your home you would have some very midagating curcumstances. But if you have no reason to beleive those entering are not police your best chance of survival is to not resist.
One thing I do sugest is to get to know the officers who regulary patrol your neighborhood. This is a win win situation. The 'new' policing method is nothing but using the 'old' method. I made it a point to spend as much time out of the car as possible in the business areas and where there were other gatherings,ie: parks, ball fields, and the like. The biggest problem I had was time. We were so short handed we litterly went from call to call for the last ten years of my active service.
This was an intersting thread and I hope some folks learned something from it. I shows some of the propblems we have to deal with, but in a more controled envirnment, on the street.
Sorry for the spelling, but like I said it is something I have had to deal with my entire life. I do not have the spell check option on this system while on the internet.[;)]
It would appear from your posting that you're a rural LEO who doesn't have to deal with life in the big city, otherwise, you'd not make statements like you have.
There are no cops doing street-to-street patrols to know. That luxury doesn't exist.
Any big city provides ample opportunity for break-ins. You expect me, as a homeowner woken up in the middle of the night by my front door being smashed in to "trust" that it is the police and not resist? That's how people wind up being tied up, their wives raped, and being killed for just sitting back and doing nothing.
It would seem as though you're of the mindset that if my home is being broken into, I should calmly dial 9-1-1 and ask the invaders to please wait while I'm on hold. [:(!]
Sells,
I hope your rant/venting has helped you releive some of your stress. After all this is a big part of being in LE. We are the visable part of the government and we get a few crack pots like you. We just take it in stride and continue to do our jobs. If we let people like you bother us we would be not better than you, and then we could not do the job we are sworn to do. Have a nice day, take a few deep breaths and calm down. Life is to short to spent your time so upset and angry.[:)]
No sells you are not correct in any of your assumtions. When I joined the PD we were 160 man dept (1974).
When I retired in 9-11-99 we were near the 600 mark. The metro population was near 600k. I have sense been a reserve officer in two juristictions, both very small town and rual. What a differance. I could enjoy this rual LEO stuff.[8D]
Well atleast someone is learning!!!![;)]
If you did notice my post I did say 'with overwhelming force'. Most common criminals do not have the resourses to impersonat a 'real' swat raid.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Well atleast someone is learning!!!![;)]
If you did notice my post I did say 'with overwhelming force'. Most common criminals do not have the resourses to impersonat a 'real' swat raid.
While this is true, you are also making an assumption that everyone knows what's what
For example-
At 3 am, am I going to be awakened by a commotion at the front door, awake bleary eyed, see what the ruckus is, and then realize while half alseep-
hey- those guys are not in standard SWAT tactical formation! In fact, they are doing this all wrong! These must be criminals breaking in, disguised as Police! OR-
Hey- these guys are doing everything according to SOP for this community's Police action during this tactical situation. These dudes are legit!
Absolutely not, no way. You're too close to the subject to be objective on this point. The general public simply will not know at a glance, after having been torn from sleep in the middle of the night, what is legit, and what is not
I can go to any army/navy store and get a black Tac outfit, or order one online, with a headsock. Good enough disguise to fool a confused and half-asleep citizen long enough to gain entry. Ten minutes into the break-in doesn't matter- it's the first instant the door is open and a foot gets inside
LEO aren't overworked and underpaid around here. I know a girl I went to highschool with that is now an LEO, and I don't think I can be friends with her anymore, as I know she already had a "chip on her shoulder" of sorts. An inferiority complex actually, and a had for anyone who drinks because her father was an alcohlic, and shes quite small.
Her with small size, a gun, an inferiority complex, and the assumption 1 beer turns you into a violent jerk....
Of course, they had to take her, for "diversity"
The physical test they had to pass was a joke... the community college they needed is easy. $80k a year is not underpaid for a city with maybe 1 homicide a year, if that - it borders San Jose, which has a murder rate identical to some Canadian cities (I know this after doing research, arguing with a Canadian about relative safety in america vs canada, and poverty vs guns causing homicide trends)
Dyslexic cops who think they are geniuses, great - they will think they are so smart, as they transpose numbers, raid the wrong house, and kill its occupants.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Sells,
I hope your rant/venting has helped you releive some of your stress. After all this is a big part of being in LE. We are the visable part of the government and we get a few crack pots like you. We just take it in stride and continue to do our jobs. If we let people like you bother us we would be not better than you, and then we could not do the job we are sworn to do. Have a nice day, take a few deep breaths and calm down. Life is to short to spent your time so upset and angry.[:)]
Glad to know that you consider me a crack pot.
My opinion of LEOs has just dropped about 20 points, thanks you you.
This is just great, guys. An LEO jumps into a conversation where he knows he will be in the minority opinion and makes a reasonable effort to explain his position.
I believe his viewpoint to be incorrect, but it was polite and reasoned and he allowed us to see some of the thought processes that are used to (IMO) justify these types of home invasions.
What is served by baiting someone?
Thanks, Jim. As previously noted, I disagree with you, but appreciate the insight. (Know your enemy, as it were[;)])
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Im sorry, but that same constitution you talk about allows for the police to "invade" of "break in" with a lawfully acquired search warrant. That does not give you the right to kill police officers because you dont like whats going on. Despite what you may think, police officers are U.S. citizens and if doing their job legally and in good faith, have the right to live. You talk as though police officers have no rights at all, simply because they are government employees. I do agree with you in some sense and everyone on here does. We are all U.S. citizens protected by the constitution and should not have our houses raided without a search warrant. But you along with several other people on here seem to think the constitution is this impenetrable barrier, allowing for people to commit crimes at will without any accountability. Im sorry, thats not its intention. The constitution allows for government intrusion within the law. Yes it really does. It simply outlines the parameters for that government intrusion. It was written to protect the innocent, requiring the government to obtain evidence against you before walking into your house. Its just a check and balance system, which despite how frustrating it can be for an investigator, is necessary to keep a free society. I admit, I wish I didn't have to go through all the hoops to bust the guy I know is breaking the law. But at the same time, I appreciate it because when I am accused of something, I deserve the right to a trial like the next guy. Its a love/hate relationship with the constitution for any law enforcement officer, but a necessary document.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
This is just great, guys. An LEO jumps into a conversation where he knows he will be in the minority opinion and makes a reasonable effort to explain his position.
I believe his viewpoint to be incorrect, but it was polite and reasoned and he allowed us to see some of the thought processes that are used to (IMO) justify these types of home invasions.
What is served by baiting someone?
Thanks, Jim. As previously noted, I disagree with you, but appreciate the insight. (Know your enemy, as it were[;)])
Don,
This LEO jumped in and essentially informed us that we're foolish to try and defend our homes when someone breaks down the door. This LEO jumped in and told us that LEOs don't make mistakes when it comes to NK raids. This LEO then labels people who disagree with him as "crack pots."
Sorry, I'm happy to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but his assertions are silly and if they reflect a majority of LEOs, frightening.
quote:Originally posted by Blairweescot
but isn't the "you disgust me pig" routine the same attitude as the woman you're talking about, who makes assumptions?
The difference is I'm not given a carte blanche to shoot anyone and enforce my will on the populace.
I also don't make statements like Jim did like "I am better than you"(paraphrasing). Nor do I presume that I shouldn't be held accountable or confronted when I am in the wrong.
If LEOs invade the wrong house, they act outside the law, and deserve to be shot. PERIOD.
The point about the constitution allowing for warrants ignores the practice if serving warrants at the time - none of this no knock entry BS.
Show up, knock on the door, wait a reasonable time, if they come hand them the paper, wait a reasonable time for them to read it and enter.
If you have to, park way doen the street, have your swat team hiding, ready to make an entry, and send only 1 officer to the door to not raise too much suspicion - do not enter if the person is home without making a reasonable attempt to present the warrant.
Without presenting the warrant, the person has no reasonable way of discerning a lawful entry, and is justified in shooting whoever comes in.
If I were on a jury, and the defendant shot police coming in the house (and somehow lived through it - perhaps killing the first 1 orgroup, realizing they were cops, and surrendering splayed on the ground before the 2nd group came), and the police raided the right house in a no-knock warrant, I still would not convict.
The police initiated a raid with lethal force intending to cause confusion, they are the instigator, they hold the responsibility.
Why can't they wait until the person leaves, raid the house, and be waiting outside to present the warrant when the person comes back?
Comments
Perhaps the greatest strength this country once had was the simply fact that local and state governments were superior to the Federal Government by virtue of the 10th Amendment.
As we morph into a 'protect me at all costs' collective, we not only diminish the authority of the states and municipalities, we are forced to accept a nationalized version of law enforcement.
What worked for G-men in their quest to contain Capone is not what works on a local level. The militarization of local law enforcement, funded in part by the Dept. of Homeland Security, carries with it not only the aggressiveness inherent with a militarized unit, but also a reduction in the local control of these groups.
Again, well stated.
Brad Steele
1. We, as LEO, don't 'pick on' people or give false info and get warrants to 'get' you citizens.
2. NK warrants are the exception, not the norm. For every NK warrant issued there are hundrads if not thousands of knock and announce warrants issued.
3. NK warrants are not taken lightly by those in the LE profession or the legal profession, or the judges. Becasue these FEW mistakes cause so much harm and get so much press and cause this unreasonable fear (we are seeing here and now) much care is taken to get it right. We do not want these mistakes to ever happen.
4. NK warrants are issued ONLY in situtions where there is a well proven need for this type of enforcement. This tactic is a well proven method of SAFLEY handeling, by limiting the location and using overwhelming force, VERY DANGEROUS situatuions and people.[:)]
RR, the probability of you, assuming you are not a very dangerous criminal, have a NK warrant executed on your home is so remote it is off the scale of probability! But you do what you feel is necessary, I would!!
Like I said Jo. What do you base your opinions/beleives on?? The applications for the NK warrants I was involved in REQUIRED two levels of supervision above the applicant review and confirm info to include the location/s and name/s. Then our DA's office would review the application before we went before the judge (no secret courts where I worked). THEN prior to service, officers (both the one applying for the warrant and others not involved in the application) would check the location to make sure the address and physical description matched.
I think some of you have been doing your research on this the 'Hollywood' way!!
No secret courts where you worked? How do you know? You just weren't in on the special group. 10,000s of Secret Warrants have been issued by Secret Courts-do a little research, not your hollywood crap, by real research, you'll find out we in the U.S. now have fully up and operational secret courts, under the Clinton Admin, their powers[the admin/fed LE] were greatly increased and have just gotten worse. I don't know how many warrants, secret or not 'Barney' served, that has little to do with the discussion, rather our rights as Americans, and the erosion there of, and the complicity of LE in the chipping away America. This is nothing to be proud of.
You need to come back to reality!!
Being prepared for the unexpected is resonsable.
Expecting the unexpected is a mental illness.[;)]
The thread was started to explore the Rights of the Police vs. that of the Citizen in this particular case. The fact that NK warrants are not the norm really does not come into play.
The fact is that NK warrants have been executed wrongly and innocent people have been damaged. The question was what rights do people have in this case, as compared to the rights they should have.
To put in in plain language:
I am a law abiding citizen. If a team of police officers bust down my door when they are really looking for my neighbor, am I at fault if I shoot them down?
I suggest I am not. Some suggest I am. I still suggest I am not.
Brad Steele
Were I sitting on your jury (the odds of you avoiding an 'accident' on the way to jail being slim, of course) you would be INNOCENT..and a hero besides.
Thank you.
'Not guilty by reason of heroism.'
I could live with that.[:)]
Brad Steele
If they (the courts) are so secert how do you know about them???[;)]
You need to come back to reality!!
Being prepared for the unexpected is resonsable.
Expecting the unexpected is a mental illness.[;)]
From your original post I thought you showed a lack of intelligence, this post removes all doubt. Did you do any research? No, Your a cop you know everything already! Anyone else would have at least googled Secret Courts and found out if I knew what I was talking about, or if you were just ignorant. I can't imagine you as a witness for the prosecution! A child could demonstrate to a jury your stupidity. The DoD used secret and even top secret and above codes, your response:"Well ifin they is so secret how is it you know abouts them". And you are the type of person we should feel good about knowing you may have NK warrants to our homes? Your a joke! Take 10 seconds and look up Secret Courts- you may learn something for the first time in years.
Each case will be determined on the totality of the circumstances of the specific incident.
That said. If you were the 'victim' of a 'mistake' made by well meaning 'police' and you get a lawyer you will probably never have to work again. [;)]
Police do not have 'rights' when it comes to enforcemnet of the law. As far as that goes police do not have rights the rest of society have. Cops are guilty until proven inocent due to this emotion and unreasonable fear displayed right on this thread.
The people, including those suspected of crimes, have the 'rights'. If a LEO needs to take action which would violate these 'rights' he MUST prove this need to a judge, UNLESS he has and can articulate some aggervating curcumstances which would require him to act without delay, and then he would still have to prove it after the fact. But what we are descussing here are NK warrants which are only issued after much adue.
If the police do execute a NK warrant and the person who is being ' mistakenly victimized' uses force aginst the officers and he knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legaly wrong. If we, LOE's, makeing a mistake or not, are making an arrest the use of the force by those we are acting to arrest only aggervates the situation and as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply aginst me) if necessary.
Most juristictions require the person submit to the authority of the police, even if there is a mistake, and settle it in court (civil and/or criminal)not on the street. There are some statutes on the books which state a citizen may defend themselfes aginist the police if this action is 'intentionaly and wrongly' commited. This would apply to a cop miss using his authority to victimize a person. This very seldom occures, and the proof of this has to be overwhelming if the use of force is involved.
I think perhaps `Outrage' may well be a better term.
Outrage at a Beast that is rapidly escalating its' war against citizens to the breaking point.
The British didn't learn that in time...and I see NOTHING to convince me that the present `British' have learned a damn thing, either.
I think that as these incidents increase exponentially...there will come a backlash.
That backlash will take the form of piles of dead bodies one of these days...and the honest citizen will not be at the bottom of that pile...as they are now.
This sounds like a vent/rant to me. What makes you think this is on the increase?? I haven't noticed the use of NK warrants increasing nor have I seen the 'mistakes' we were discussing increasing, enlighten me, please![?]
You make a mistake if you think the sole cause of angst in America is JBTs kicking in doors.
That is merely ONE aspect of a basket of evil being shoved down our throats.
quote:
Originally posted by Highball
'Respect' is a word thrown about pretty often ..we are supposed to respect the uniform, you see.
Well ..I make up my own mind about what I respect.
The good Captain hit the nail on the head yet again ..as he generally does.
Peace Officer ?
My utmost respect and admiration for doing a dirty, stinking job ..dealing with the underbelly daily.
Leo ?
You have nothing but my contempt ..for your only function is to carry out the orders of the Beast. You are unable to grasp the basics of the foundation of freedom ..and you refuse to think for yourself.
You have turned your back on your fellow man ..and the Constitution that you swore a false oath to.
The difference only exists in your head. Show me in any statue in any state, where the two are differentiated. Show me where the two have different job descriptions, in any job description in any state, between "Peace Officer" and "Law Enforcement". Show me any different statute where they are different in stated police powers or duties.
Alpine,
I believe what Highball was eluding to was a difference in the mindest of a "Peace Officer" as opposed to a "Law Enforcement Officer."
Example:
Traffic stop: You pull over a minivan with out of state tags. The van has an inoperable driver's side brake light. The occupants are a man, his wife, and two kids vacationing in your state. The driver is very candid and courteous. When you first make contact, he advises you he is carrying a pistol in the glove box. The driver does not have a CCL.
What do you, as an officer, do?
Traffic stop: You pull over a minivan with out of state tags. The van has an inoperable driver's side brake light. The occupants are a man, his wife, and two kids vacationing in your state. The driver is very candid and courteous. When you first make contact, he advises you he is carrying a pistol in the glove box. The driver does not have a CCL.
What do you, as an officer, do?
This is Texas, by God! In Texas, travelers can go armed in their vehicles, so I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
This is Texas, by God! In Texas, travelers can go armed in their vehicles, so I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
David,
Good answer, and a perfect example of the "Peace Officer" mindset.[:D][;)]
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
And by the way I was LAW ENFORCEMENT for 20 years. I could give a ____p about any perceived difference that exists only in your mind.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
I'll throw in my 2 cents:
I couldn't give 2 stuffs if no-knock entries are safer, I could care less for what is safer to an LEO.
The LEO knew there would be danger when they accepted the job, to uphold the law. Constitutional rights are law. The LEO should be willing to risk his/her life to uphold these laws/rights.
Pretty much how I feel. Police are under paid and over worked, yet I have never asked anyone to do that job. It is their decision. I beleive police have way to much power and abuse it in a mind boggling amount.
I give no more or less trust or respect to a police officer then I would to Joe blow walking down the street. That uniform just doesn't mean crap to me anymore as far as safety or a good person. I've seen it abused at a constant rate personally.
In Kalif. carrying a concealed handgun is only a misdemeanor. Hardly worth the effort to arrest. Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
This makes an excellent illustration of the difference in mindset between a Peace Office and a LEO.
It isn't about "effort" sir, it is about a fundamental right and the right of an individual to be free of government interference when committing NO bad act.
It isn't about what some liberal/collectivist/fat fluck in the legislature decided was wrong, it is about what is "right" and what should be left to the individual.
Since some collectivist fat flucks decided that something that properly should be a free choice is now "against the law", a Peace Officer weighs the rightness of such "law" vs. an actual "bad act" having been committed, e.g. misuse of a firearm, rather than its mere possession.
No bad act, no action.
A LEO enforces it because it is the "law".
You seem to be a collectivist LEO and probably do not even realize it.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
If there is no "bad act" being committed, why don't you keep your speculations, distrust of individuals and unnecessary prying questions, about what an individual and a parent plans on doing, to yourself.
As for me, I'd be keeping my gun ready and within access in any hotel I was staying in and I bet you would too.
As a LEO, you think what you proposed asking is your business, I say it is none of your business.
A Peace Officer keeps the peace and does not intrude into the lives of individuals beyond what is necessary and unless and until some "bad act" is committed.
In your scenario, there is no breach of the peace, so no enforcement action, or LEO nosiness about where in a hotel a person is going to keep a firearm, is appropriate.
And by the way I was LAW ENFORCEMENT for 20 years. I could give a ____p about any perceived difference that exists only in your mind.
Good for you sir!
You seem to be a "poster child" for illustrating the LEO mindset.
I'll be happy to debate you here, for all to see, to illustrate the Peace Officer "mindset" that you seem to think non-existent.
I "AM" and have been a peace officer for longer than that and it isn't a perceived difference, it is a factual and distinct difference in how a cop views and acts within his proper role in society.
Glad to dissect the issue if you wish, but I've done it enough times that it gets tiring to have to repeatedly point out that ones oath to "support and defend the Constitution" supersedes one's obligation to whatever "enforcement" training and mentality one is taught.
In Kalif. carrying a concealed handgun is only a misdemeanor. Hardly worth the effort to arrest. Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
And by the way I was LAW ENFORCEMENT for 20 years. I could give a ____p about any perceived difference that exists only in your mind.
Alpine, you answered my question. Now, compare your answer with the one given by David, and you shall see the difference in mindset.
Nunn:
I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
Alpine:
Make the John Q. put the gun in the trunk and send him on his way.
Also I would inquire where he keeps the gun when in a hotel room with the kids present. I don't want any accidental kid shootings on my beat.
Why would you "make" him put the pistol in the trunk, thereby stripping him of his means to a speedy defense? When you were an officer, did you carry your sidearm in the trunk? No, it was on your side, where it could be deployed hastily. Shouldn't this gentleman have the same opportunity?
Why would you automatically assume that if this gentleman keeps the pistol in the motel room, that an accidental shooting will occur? Shouldn't he have the same capability to defend himself/his family in the room as he does in his vehicle?
Don,
Each case will be determined on the totality of the circumstances of the specific incident.
That said. If you were the 'victim' of a 'mistake' made by well meaning 'police' and you get a lawyer you will probably never have to work again. [;)]
Police do not have 'rights' when it comes to enforcemnet of the law. As far as that goes police do not have rights the rest of society have. Cops are guilty until proven inocent due to this emotion and unreasonable fear displayed right on this thread.
The people, including those suspected of crimes, have the 'rights'. If a LEO needs to take action which would violate these 'rights' he MUST prove this need to a judge, UNLESS he has and can articulate some aggervating curcumstances which would require him to act without delay, and then he would still have to prove it after the fact. But what we are descussing here are NK warrants which are only issued after much adue.
If the police do execute a NK warrant and the person who is being ' mistakenly victimized' uses force aginst the officers and he knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legaly wrong. If we, LOE's, makeing a mistake or not, are making an arrest the use of the force by those we are acting to arrest only aggervates the situation and as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply aginst me) if necessary.
Most juristictions require the person submit to the authority of the police, even if there is a mistake, and settle it in court (civil and/or criminal)not on the street. There are some statutes on the books which state a citizen may defend themselfes aginist the police if this action is 'intentionaly and wrongly' commited. This would apply to a cop miss using his authority to victimize a person. This very seldom occures, and the proof of this has to be overwhelming if the use of force is involved.
I don't normally pick out typos, but in this conversation, several typographical errors are germane to the conversation.
You don't have just one, you've got EIGHTEEN of them in one response, and it isn't just this post, it is nearly every post you've made in this thread.
Were you writing up a warrant request for someone in my neighborhood, I'd be terrified to know that someone like you was in law enforcement. This is a prime example as to HOW and WHY wrong addresses wind up on warrants and innocent people, who should be safe in their own homes, are killed by the police.
Also, your attitude is what I would classify as typical for LEOs that I have run across. With the exception of a few (David Nunn would be one exception), my experience with LEOs is that they have a chip on their shoulder and have a superiority complex. Your posts lead me to believe that you are no exception to the rule.
Then the attitude thing. You don't have a clue. My policing methods were to try and keep as many people out of the system as possible. In other words, arrest was a last resort for me. But those who have never had to deal with the general public like you (the clueless) have no idea what it is like to be a cop, LEO, peace officer, trooper, or what ever you name you want to put on it.
Your attacks on me are nothing compared to what we, in the LEO busniness, have to put up daily. I just consider the source, grin and walk away.[;)]
Don,
Each case will be determined on the totality of the circumstances of the specific incident.
That said. If you were the 'victim' of a 'mistake' made by well meaning 'police' and you get a lawyer you will probably never have to work again. [;)]
Police do not have 'rights' when it comes to enforcemnet of the law. As far as that goes police do not have rights the rest of society have. Cops are guilty until proven inocent due to this emotion and unreasonable fear displayed right on this thread.
The people, including those suspected of crimes, have the 'rights'. If a LEO needs to take action which would violate these 'rights' he MUST prove this need to a judge, UNLESS he has and can articulate some aggervating curcumstances which would require him to act without delay, and then he would still have to prove it after the fact. But what we are descussing here are NK warrants which are only issued after much adue.
If the police do execute a NK warrant and the person who is being ' mistakenly victimized' uses force aginst the officers and he knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legaly wrong. If we, LOE's, makeing a mistake or not, are making an arrest the use of the force by those we are acting to arrest only aggervates the situation and as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply aginst me) if necessary.
Most juristictions require the person submit to the authority of the police, even if there is a mistake, and settle it in court (civil and/or criminal)not on the street. There are some statutes on the books which state a citizen may defend themselfes aginist the police if this action is 'intentionaly and wrongly' commited. This would apply to a cop miss using his authority to victimize a person. This very seldom occures, and the proof of this has to be overwhelming if the use of force is involved.
Jim:
Thank you for the reasoned response. It is too bad this thread has degenerated, as I, for one, find this bit of insight interesting and informative.
I would take issue with about half of what you say, but will focus only on one point. You state a subjective 'knows or reasonably should know they are police he is legally wrong' but then state that 'as a person I have the right to defend myself from harm (the force they apply against me) if necessary.' As separate entities, there is not much to argue with, but when put together before dawn, I would hope you see the inconsistency, which is the heart of the question.
A homeowner is awakened to a splintering door jamb with someone screaming 'police' (or what ever it is you say). I get the impression it is your opinion that the homeowner should then 'reasonably know they are police'. This would only be the case if all break-ins were committed by honest people. (Note: Not all burglars are honest.)
If, however, the homeowner chooses to defend himself, you, as the aggressor will then cop the attitude that 'as a person I have the right to defend myself'.
I do not see how this squares in the greater context of the basic rights of the homeowner. In effect, he can be secure in his home unless I invade it, and then any action on his part can be squelched in the framework of self-defense for the invader. If it is the wrong house, he will get free wheelchairs for life, after all.
Regardless of the frequency of these types of occurrences, I am troubled by the attitude of superior rights in this case.
Brad Steele
Yes when you are dyslicsic, like I am, you can't spell fourchit!! But haveing a MUCH higher IQ makes it worth it!!![8D]
Then the attitude thing. You don't have a clue. My policing methods were to try and keep as many people out of the system as possible. In other words, arrest was a last resort for me. But those who have never had to deal with the general public like you (the clueless) have no idea what it is like to be a cop, LEO, peace officer, trooper, or what ever you name you want to put on it.
Your attacks on me are nothing compared to what we, in the LEO busniness, have to put up daily. I just consider the source, grin and walk away.[;)]
Cripes man, you're making my point. Could you possibly be any more smug? I think you'd have to really work at it.
I don't deal with the general public? Buddy, you don't have a CLUE what I do for a living nor what I have done for a living, so your suggestion that I don't have a clue is groundless, baseless and disturbing. You're a LEO - do you normally jump to brainless conclusions like this when "investigating" a crime? You should be stripped of your badge and gun!
You're right. I have no clue what it is to be a LEO. Guess what? You don't have a clue what it is like to do what I do, either.
As far as your dyslexia goes, that's a pi$$-poor excuse, especially when the words you compose as a LEO can have an adverse affect on others.
You have the power to enforce the law, you have the power to search, and you have the power to make the lives of innocents miserable and perhaps end prematurely.
You are talking worst case senerio. This is a lose lose senerio. If it were to occur heads would roll!! I can't tell you what would be the 'right' responce in this case. IF you live in an area where the bad guys MO is to impersonate police and you used force aginst those entering your home you would have some very midagating curcumstances. But if you have no reason to beleive those entering are not police your best chance of survival is to not resist.
One thing I do sugest is to get to know the officers who regulary patrol your neighborhood. This is a win win situation. The 'new' policing method is nothing but using the 'old' method. I made it a point to spend as much time out of the car as possible in the business areas and where there were other gatherings,ie: parks, ball fields, and the like. The biggest problem I had was time. We were so short handed we litterly went from call to call for the last ten years of my active service.
This was an intersting thread and I hope some folks learned something from it. I shows some of the propblems we have to deal with, but in a more controled envirnment, on the street.
Sorry for the spelling, but like I said it is something I have had to deal with my entire life. I do not have the spell check option on this system while on the internet.[;)]
I guess I know what would be the right response, though it apparently is not the correct response. I would, after all, take your tag line to heart.[:)]
Brad Steele
Don,
You are talking worst case senerio. This is a lose lose senerio. If it were to occur heads would roll!! I can't tell you what would be the 'right' responce in this case. IF you live in an area where the bad guys MO is to impersonate police and you used force aginst those entering your home you would have some very midagating curcumstances. But if you have no reason to beleive those entering are not police your best chance of survival is to not resist.
One thing I do sugest is to get to know the officers who regulary patrol your neighborhood. This is a win win situation. The 'new' policing method is nothing but using the 'old' method. I made it a point to spend as much time out of the car as possible in the business areas and where there were other gatherings,ie: parks, ball fields, and the like. The biggest problem I had was time. We were so short handed we litterly went from call to call for the last ten years of my active service.
This was an intersting thread and I hope some folks learned something from it. I shows some of the propblems we have to deal with, but in a more controled envirnment, on the street.
Sorry for the spelling, but like I said it is something I have had to deal with my entire life. I do not have the spell check option on this system while on the internet.[;)]
It would appear from your posting that you're a rural LEO who doesn't have to deal with life in the big city, otherwise, you'd not make statements like you have.
There are no cops doing street-to-street patrols to know. That luxury doesn't exist.
Any big city provides ample opportunity for break-ins. You expect me, as a homeowner woken up in the middle of the night by my front door being smashed in to "trust" that it is the police and not resist? That's how people wind up being tied up, their wives raped, and being killed for just sitting back and doing nothing.
It would seem as though you're of the mindset that if my home is being broken into, I should calmly dial 9-1-1 and ask the invaders to please wait while I'm on hold. [:(!]
I hope your rant/venting has helped you releive some of your stress. After all this is a big part of being in LE. We are the visable part of the government and we get a few crack pots like you. We just take it in stride and continue to do our jobs. If we let people like you bother us we would be not better than you, and then we could not do the job we are sworn to do. Have a nice day, take a few deep breaths and calm down. Life is to short to spent your time so upset and angry.[:)]
When I retired in 9-11-99 we were near the 600 mark. The metro population was near 600k. I have sense been a reserve officer in two juristictions, both very small town and rual. What a differance. I could enjoy this rual LEO stuff.[8D]
Oops. Sorry.
If you did notice my post I did say 'with overwhelming force'. Most common criminals do not have the resourses to impersonat a 'real' swat raid.
The SS SWAT Po-Po are arresting all bank customers and taking everyone away in handcuffs.
Strong rm nazi tactic? yep.
guilty until innocent?
Well atleast someone is learning!!!![;)]
If you did notice my post I did say 'with overwhelming force'. Most common criminals do not have the resourses to impersonat a 'real' swat raid.
While this is true, you are also making an assumption that everyone knows what's what
For example-
At 3 am, am I going to be awakened by a commotion at the front door, awake bleary eyed, see what the ruckus is, and then realize while half alseep-
hey- those guys are not in standard SWAT tactical formation! In fact, they are doing this all wrong! These must be criminals breaking in, disguised as Police! OR-
Hey- these guys are doing everything according to SOP for this community's Police action during this tactical situation. These dudes are legit!
Absolutely not, no way. You're too close to the subject to be objective on this point. The general public simply will not know at a glance, after having been torn from sleep in the middle of the night, what is legit, and what is not
I can go to any army/navy store and get a black Tac outfit, or order one online, with a headsock. Good enough disguise to fool a confused and half-asleep citizen long enough to gain entry. Ten minutes into the break-in doesn't matter- it's the first instant the door is open and a foot gets inside
Her with small size, a gun, an inferiority complex, and the assumption 1 beer turns you into a violent jerk....
Of course, they had to take her, for "diversity"
The physical test they had to pass was a joke... the community college they needed is easy. $80k a year is not underpaid for a city with maybe 1 homicide a year, if that - it borders San Jose, which has a murder rate identical to some Canadian cities (I know this after doing research, arguing with a Canadian about relative safety in america vs canada, and poverty vs guns causing homicide trends)
Dyslexic cops who think they are geniuses, great - they will think they are so smart, as they transpose numbers, raid the wrong house, and kill its occupants.
You disgust me pig.
Sells,
I hope your rant/venting has helped you releive some of your stress. After all this is a big part of being in LE. We are the visable part of the government and we get a few crack pots like you. We just take it in stride and continue to do our jobs. If we let people like you bother us we would be not better than you, and then we could not do the job we are sworn to do. Have a nice day, take a few deep breaths and calm down. Life is to short to spent your time so upset and angry.[:)]
Glad to know that you consider me a crack pot.
My opinion of LEOs has just dropped about 20 points, thanks you you.
I believe his viewpoint to be incorrect, but it was polite and reasoned and he allowed us to see some of the thought processes that are used to (IMO) justify these types of home invasions.
What is served by baiting someone?
Thanks, Jim. As previously noted, I disagree with you, but appreciate the insight. (Know your enemy, as it were[;)])
Brad Steele
This is just great, guys. An LEO jumps into a conversation where he knows he will be in the minority opinion and makes a reasonable effort to explain his position.
I believe his viewpoint to be incorrect, but it was polite and reasoned and he allowed us to see some of the thought processes that are used to (IMO) justify these types of home invasions.
What is served by baiting someone?
Thanks, Jim. As previously noted, I disagree with you, but appreciate the insight. (Know your enemy, as it were[;)])
Don,
This LEO jumped in and essentially informed us that we're foolish to try and defend our homes when someone breaks down the door. This LEO jumped in and told us that LEOs don't make mistakes when it comes to NK raids. This LEO then labels people who disagree with him as "crack pots."
Sorry, I'm happy to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but his assertions are silly and if they reflect a majority of LEOs, frightening.
Jeff
but isn't the "you disgust me pig" routine the same attitude as the woman you're talking about, who makes assumptions?
The difference is I'm not given a carte blanche to shoot anyone and enforce my will on the populace.
I also don't make statements like Jim did like "I am better than you"(paraphrasing). Nor do I presume that I shouldn't be held accountable or confronted when I am in the wrong.
If LEOs invade the wrong house, they act outside the law, and deserve to be shot. PERIOD.
The point about the constitution allowing for warrants ignores the practice if serving warrants at the time - none of this no knock entry BS.
Show up, knock on the door, wait a reasonable time, if they come hand them the paper, wait a reasonable time for them to read it and enter.
If you have to, park way doen the street, have your swat team hiding, ready to make an entry, and send only 1 officer to the door to not raise too much suspicion - do not enter if the person is home without making a reasonable attempt to present the warrant.
Without presenting the warrant, the person has no reasonable way of discerning a lawful entry, and is justified in shooting whoever comes in.
If I were on a jury, and the defendant shot police coming in the house (and somehow lived through it - perhaps killing the first 1 orgroup, realizing they were cops, and surrendering splayed on the ground before the 2nd group came), and the police raided the right house in a no-knock warrant, I still would not convict.
The police initiated a raid with lethal force intending to cause confusion, they are the instigator, they hold the responsibility.
Why can't they wait until the person leaves, raid the house, and be waiting outside to present the warrant when the person comes back?