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The problem is that police officers are suppose to be professionals. There shouldn't be any innocent people getting shot. There shouldn't be any wrong doors being kicked in.
Just recently one of the CMP shot a man out doing his job at a cell tower one night. Killed this law abiding citizen, father, husband, pillar of the community. Seems this guy was called out to a cell tower like 2 in the morning. He was in the little building working on equipment when someone called the cops about a strange man out there at the tower. Now this guy was in a marked company truch and all locks was opened with a key.
This cop goes in this building, shoots dead this man. Then claims that he pulled a gun on him. First off everyone who knew him said that he never owned a gun. Second, this man was shot dead inside the building but the the gun was found outside of this building. How does a dead man throw a gun outside of a building?
Of course CMP did an investigation and found no wrong doing on the part of the cop.
Again the cops are suppose to be professionals so why does things like this happen.
quote:Originally posted by MMOMEQ-55
The problem is that police officers are suppose to be professionals. There shouldn't be any innocent people getting shot. There shouldn't be any wrong doors being kicked in.
Just recently one of the CMP shot a man out doing his job at a cell tower one night. Killed this law abiding citizen, father, husband, pillar of the community. Seems this guy was called out to a cell tower like 2 in the morning. He was in the little building working on equipment when someone called the cops about a strange man out there at the tower. Now this guy was in a marked company truch and all locks was opened with a key.
This cop goes in this building, shoots dead this man. Then claims that he pulled a gun on him. First off everyone who knew him said that he never owned a gun. Second, this man was shot dead inside the building but the the gun was found outside of this building. How does a dead man throw a gun outside of a building?
Of course CMP did an investigation and found no wrong doing on the part of the cop.
Again the cops are suppose to be professionals so why does things like this happen.
Obviously you've never seen TV or a movie. Everyone knows that when you get hit by a 9mm, you fly back like 900 feet until you smack into something. Any moron could tell that he was shot outside and through the open door of the little building until he hit the wall.
quote:Originally posted by spanielsells
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Two words: governmental immunity
That may apply to "some" agencies at the federal level, but not at the city and county level. Cities and counties get sued all the time and the vast majority of search warrants are at that level.
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
quote:Originally posted by spanielsells
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Two words: governmental immunity
That may apply to "some" agencies at the federal level, but not at the city and county level. Cities and counties get sued all the time and the vast majority of search warrants are at that level.
No, actually it works quite well on the local level as well. It merely depends on how the laws of the jurisdiction are written.
I solemnly swear to kill EVERY SINGLE person who breaks in to my home in the middle of the night. I will make it out alive, I do not know whether or not I may be injured. I do know my house layout better than anyone, I do know that a steel core bullet out of any thirty caliber rifle will stop any invading force.
Violate the sanctity of my home, and i will violate you and every single person you bring with you, in the name of God and all that is good, AMEN! [^]
quote:Originally posted by CA sucks
I will also condemn certain attitudes only in tandem with "law enforcement" if you cannot get the distinction between what is acceptable behavior, and what is acceptable behavior while in a position of authority, then I can see this is pointless.
You think I can't see that? Stop taking what I say I bending it to your agenda
My points concerning your post had nothing to do with authority and it's use and abuse, but you insist on taking what I posted, and turning it into an abuse of authority comment
thats kind of a BS way to conduct a discussion. I can see why you don't see any point, and it's because you can't conceive that I'm not talking about big problems with authority and it's abuse, I'm talking about your own attitudes and how you rationalize your conclusions
And yet you call me a liar when I point out the contradiction. Hey, I don't take offense; you're a little confused. When you finally take the time to consider what other people say, I'll be around to discuss.
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
The only time I will 'feel' that I have to do battle with the police is if (when?) a confiscation law is passed that applies to a weapon I own.
I 'feel' I will have to do battle with any intruder that violently invades my home, regardless of who they pretend to be or what law they are pretending to uphold.
Fact: I do nothing that would warrant an invasion of my home by legitimate authorities.
Corollary Fact: Anyone who violently invades my home is operating outside the law.
Conclusion: I have legitimate reasonable doubt as to the identity of anyone who breaks down my door. I thus have the right to defend myself in any manner I so choose.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
496,
I agree and feel the same way, I never lost sight of that fact.[:)]
That is why I was a good cop and gave the admistration a hard time when they got out of hand.
Bottom line, I am a citizen first, then a Peace Officer.
I am no better than any other freedom loving, honest citizen, regardless of the authority bestowed on me by the virtue of my job.
I take that authority, which is loaned to me, very seriously and attempt every day to be wise and judicious in its use. My oath to support and defend the US Constitution and the Constitution of my State come above any "malum prohibitum" law on the books, period.
Being a cop is not my life, it is a job and one I take great pride in and in which I make every effort to be worthy of the public trust and strive to not be that which I abhor in government.
wartiger:
I have been in Law Enforcement for nearly 14 years, starting in 1995 as a 20 year old jailer. Everyday, I set out to TRY my very best to make the city, zone, neighborhood, that I am patrolling safer, because, I honestly DO care what happens to my fellow man. When a thug imposes a criminal act on a victim in the area of my patrol, I truly feel somewhat responsible, asking myself what I could have done to prevent this. I understand the animosity towards me for what I represent and the image that alot of power-hungry, jack azzes give the majority of us. I am no better than anyone, as previously implied, and I show respect to even the worst, until disrespect is given. ANY LEO, and I use the term generally, who believes himself "better" than those he serves, or above the law he upholds, is a disgrace and has no place in LE. We work for you, the citizens of our county, city, parrish, whatever, and as such, we have to reflect the values, morales and standards that the citizens demand and deserve. Writing tickets and putting people in jail is not what we are here for, and for me, is a last resort.
nunn:
This is Texas, by God! In Texas, travelers can go armed in their vehicles, so I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
Three fine examples of the "Peace Officer" mentality. No power-hungry egos to feed. No "looking down" upon the citizens. No abuse of power. Just a desire to "keep the peace" as opposed to "enforcing the law"; Vast difference between the two, and these three examples clearly illustrate the difference.
I interact with the PD every third day. I've met some good, and some bad. I see nothing wrong with a public servant, be they Law, Fire, or EMS, holding themselves to the highest standards of character and integrity. They should. But when that individual develops the mindset that he is somehow "better" than his fellow citizens, the ego, abuse of power, and "looking down upon the citizens" will soon follow.
If in a situation where I needed help, I would hope that I would draw someone with the "Peace Officer" midset. I believe they would be more likely to put themselves at risk to render aid, as opposed to one who views themself as "better" than others. My 2 cents.
ws,That is what I have been trying to get accross to you all. This is the MAJORITY not the minority attitude of those in the LO community.
I was FTO for most of my time and this one of the warnings I gave the new cops. "Treat people the way you would want to be treated"
There are a FEW bad cops out there and most do not last long. We in the profession do some of our own 'policing' and run them off. With all this PC and affermative action BS makes it harder to do these days. The problem is we are getting some who are to 'idealstic' and not realistic about the job. They try to do everything 'by the book' and don't consider the human factor. Some of what sells experanced is an example of this. I don't know how to counter this, but if it continues LE reputatuion will continue to decline.[V]
I have some questions for all of you who are bad mouthing me.[?]
Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who is above average, average, or below average in their mental, physical, and emotional abilities??? Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who cares about people and their rights or one who does not care???
I place little value on mental and physical abilities, though a good stable person is necessary. I guess it would be nice if all LEO's were physically in good shape and were of above average intelligence, but the bottom line is temperament and approach. You appear to be a reasonable person, and as stated before, I respect that you have engaged in this thread the way you have. To be perfectly blunt, though, your statements of being better that the average guy, regardless of whether there is empirical data to support it, strikes me as odd, and if not disturbing at least a little off-putting.
To answer your question directly:
I do not care about the intelligence level of or the physical attributes of a police officer. I would prefer a stupid fat policeman who believed in the rights of the individual over that of the state to a perfect physical specimen with a 180 IQ who knew he was better than me.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Well if you could have both it would be much better. I have been told I am to open and honest for my own good, and I guess this would apply here. But I can tell you it is very important to have ALL of the abilities I listed. Do you want someone who is smart enough to follow-up your complaint? Do you want someone who is capable of making a physical arrest if necessary? You are correct, it all boils down to attitude and comitment. I was of the attitude the citizen/victim came first and I was commited to do the 'right' thing even if I had to go aginst the dept policy. Like I said, I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and refused to be like alot of the cops I saw while growing up.
Well after reading all of this,..........I will say that LT496, and Wartiger sound most like the officers that I happen to know.
I shoot with them on occasion, and they consider me a friend, and the feeling is mutual. I would put my own life on the line to help them if ever needed.
One of them pulled me over a few weeks back as a joke![:D]
He was heading home, and lives in the general area that I do. Spotted my truck, and decided to have some fun with me.
When he exited the cruiser, and I saw him,........I just started shaking my head, as I could see him smiling real big.
Asked me if I was heading home, and if he could swing by my house after he changed, for a look at my AR that he had never seen, and a brewskie or two!
Thought I was about to get my first ticket in over 20 years![:0]
Both are great guys, and have even told me which officers they work with are "azzhats".
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
Marc,
I can relate. I moved to AL and the Deputy who came out to do my trailer inspections was a great guy (x-USMC, wife and two youngens). We hit it off and when we started talking guns he told me he had to sell his AR patrol rifle so he could get Christmas gifts for his kids. I loaned him one of my AR's. He now comes by as to several others for coffee or a cold one (off duty)![;)]
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
The only time I will 'feel' that I have to do battle with the police is if (when?) a confiscation law is passed that applies to a weapon I own.
I 'feel' I will have to do battle with any intruder that violently invades my home, regardless of who they pretend to be or what law they are pretending to uphold.
Fact: I do nothing that would warrant an invasion of my home by legitimate authorities.
Corollary Fact: Anyone who violently invades my home is operating outside the law.
Conclusion: I have legitimate reasonable doubt as to the identity of anyone who breaks down my door. I thus have the right to defend myself in any manner I so choose.
Don...... Your original post was directed at anyone invading your home, the police included, for any reason.... at least thats how it reads.
Now you say its only for THEM coming to TAKE AWAY YOUR GUNS, perhaps to lend some credibility to your argument. I can at least have slightly more sympathy for you now that you have narrowed it down a bit.
Getting back to my original point. If the cops come to your house in the dead of night with a warrant issued to your address you would be better served to comply with their demands.
If you feel you need to give armed resistance, we will read about your demise in the next days paper. Or, you could survive the encounter by not resisting and sue them later.
Where I live cities, counties and even the state can be sued if their people act with neglect, maliciously or illegally towards a citizen.
Those here on the forums who live in places where you cannot sue a governmental entity should "work to change the laws". Gee, where have I heard that before...... oh yeh, the thread about sellers shipping guns to calif, but thats another story.
You LEOs' got it all thrashed out to your satisfaction ?
I notice that the Peace Officers STILL disagree with most of your positions..
Puts me in mind of a statement I heard years ago...attributed to some LEO or another...telling a woman's' group..
IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE RAPED...YOU JUST AS WELL LAY BACK AND ENJOY IT..".
You boys haven't come up against any Americans yet.
You are well versed in taking down lots of garbage . .with the occasional innocent lamb thrown in for good measure..
But the day is coming when the average citizen begins to better prepare for your incursions into their private lives.
There was a day when a police officer was honored and respected. That day is slipping away. Thank yourselves for your actions and steadfast defense of the indefensible.
Getting back to my original point. If the cops come to your house in the dead of night with a warrant issued to your address you would be better served to comply with their demands.
If you feel you need to give armed resistance, we will read about your demise in the next days paper. Or, you could survive the encounter by not resisting and sue them later.
After you completely destroy the survival instinct and individual spirit of all Americans, how do you plan to rule us?
I have been told on this thread that the 4th Amendment gives you the authority to invade my home. It does no such thing. The 4th limits you, but it does not limit me. The 4th confirms my individual right to be secure in my home, a right you seem to think I should just relinquish at the time it is most important.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
You just don't get it do you???[V]
WE ARE NOT THERE TO VIOLATE ANYONES RIGHTS, WE ARE THERE TO PROTECT THEM. WE DON'T RAID HONEST LAW ABIDING CITZENS HOMES AND VIOLATE THEIR RIGHTS. WE GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T MISTAKENLY VIOLATE YOUR RIGHTS!! I was involved in many high risk warrant services (NK warrants) and none of them were served on HONEST LAW ABIDING citizens on purpose or by accident. We never made the mistake you are all so fearful of!!! If we did we would have been held accountable, and rightfuly so.
Like I said folks, COME BACK TO REALITY, please!!!
As for raiding your house to 'take your guns' I REFUSE TO BE A PART OF THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY BECASUE I TOOK AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION!!!
quote:Originally posted by kyplumber
yes jim, CA_SUCKS was right...
to get back on topic,
I solemnly swear to kill EVERY SINGLE person who breaks in to my home in the middle of the night. I will make it out alive, I do not know whether or not I may be injured. I do know my house layout better than anyone, I do know that a steel core bullet out of any thirty caliber rifle will stop any invading force.
Violate the sanctity of my home, and i will violate you and every single person you bring with you, in the name of God and all that is good, AMEN! [^]
Sweet! but Dang man, remember it's SWAT policy to actually retreat at the first sign of any real resistance. Just burn a mag into the air and they will high tail it out of there till the guy with the loudspeaker shows up to negotiate, at that point just stay away from the windows and wait for the cavalry to arrive. You may be waiting a while.
There is a saying, 'The fear of crime is worse than the crime it's self'!! This fear of a mistaken raid you have is an unfounded fear, as many of us (cops) have TRIED to expain. IF A COP VIOLATES A CITIZENS RIGHTS HE OR SHE SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! This is not a perfect world, and if it were we would not need cops, so there are times when the cops do step over the line. But these are the exception, not the rule.
WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, THE COPS AND THE CITZENS, AGINST THOSE WHO VICTIMIZE YOU!! Don't make thing worse than they are. If you are being victimized you HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF!!
(see below)[8D]
quote:Originally posted by Blairweescot
Stop taking what I say I bending it to your agenda
My points concerning your post had nothing to do with authority and it's use and abuse, but you insist on taking what I posted,
....
And yet you call me a liar when I point out the contradiction. Hey, I don't take offense; you're a little confused. When you finally take the time to consider what other people say, I'll be around to discuss.
If you took the tike to consider what I've said, you'll understand there was never any contradiction.
You said:
quote:You say that you feel it's wrong somebody makes snap assumptions about people
In response to me saying "you disgust me Pig" to Jim Rau.
I mentioned someone who makes snap judgements about people, but what I was saying was wrong was Jim Rau's attitude of being better than us
I also think its wrong when a person is given "legal" authority over someone else, and uses it to deal with deeply rooted personal issues they have. Nothing I said, prior to your comment, was intended to condemn making snap judgements. After your comment, I weighed in on the issues - you can make snap judgements all you want, but its wrong in a position of legal authority.
You are confused about what I say, and thus distort what I say, you don't seem to get the point.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I have some questions for all of you who are bad mouthing me.[?]
Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who is above average, average, or below average in their mental, physical, and emotional abilities??? Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who cares about people and their rights or one who does not care???
I'd rather have one thats not dyslexic, knows and respects the limits of constitution, and doesn't look down on citizens, or boss them around to compensate for their own inferiority complex.
Sucks, I guess the dyslexica disqualifies me in your book. I certinly meet all the other qualifications you require!![;)]
Once agin you show your prejudice, based on ignorance, by making a statement you can not back up with fact!!! I truly feel sorry for you.[:(]
I can't contradict this terminology. I have been an LEO for 32 years, and I have seen first hand that they exist. Their out there, and I fear dealing with them myself, so I fully understand how someone who isn't in LE can feel at times.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
If you are being victimized you HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF!!
(see below)[8D]
There you go, Jim. That wasn't so hard, now. Was it?[:)]
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
You just don't get it do you???[V]
WE ARE NOT THERE TO VIOLATE ANYONES RIGHTS, WE ARE THERE TO PROTECT THEM. WE DON'T RAID HONEST LAW ABIDING CITZENS HOMES AND VIOLATE THEIR RIGHTS. WE GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T MISTAKENLY VIOLATE YOUR RIGHTS!! I was involved in many high risk warrant services (NK warrants) and none of them were served on HONEST LAW ABIDING citizens on purpose or by accident. We never made the mistake you are all so fearful of!!! If we did we would have been held accountable, and rightfuly so.
Like I said folks, COME BACK TO REALITY, please!!!
As for raiding your house to 'take your guns' I REFUSE TO BE A PART OF THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY BECASUE I TOOK AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION!!!
You're just jokin', right? Please tell me you're just jokin'
(nervous chuckle)
Trinity,
I have been in LE since 1-1-74 and I first saw this 'new breed' in the early 90's. I thing there are several reasons for this:
1. They are requiring cops to have degrees, which means they have little to no live experance which would help them on the street, and they are to idealistic.
2. The training in the academy over stress officer safety to the point the new folks are down right scarred.
3. Our schools and society in general are much less violent and much more touchie feely now than when you and I grew up. Thus most have never been in a 'street' fight and lack the confidence to deal with minor violence. They over react.
4. They require a psyc test which will rule out anyone who does have true life experance as 'to violent' for the job.
Your thoughts sir?
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
+10
Don.... Bottom line... Do what ever you want, I dont really care. When it comes right down to it, you would probably answer the door and let them in.
Oh yeh....... the black helicopters are still out there.
Sir, you hit the nail on the head. The problem is usualy not with the small town local LEO. It is with the larger departments who have these requirements.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I have some questions for all of you who are bad mouthing me.[?]
Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who is above average, average, or below average in their mental, physical, and emotional abilities??? Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who cares about people and their rights or one who does not care???
You mean one that does not believe we have secret courts in the U.S.? One that does not believe there are plenty of secret warrants, NK and others, issued by these courts? One that does not believe the earth is round. Or would I rather have one that did not think they knew everything, and could spend 10 seconds googling Secret Courts, and find out some facts. I guess I would choose the later of the two. I have noted that you are ashamed to admit, you are wrong about anything such as Secret Courts, you do not want to address it, because you were never "let in on it" while you were a LE officer. Maybe they are a little bit more "choosey"( like Jif peanut butter)than I thought.
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
That's just ducky. My wife, however, does not become a widow if I guess wrong when picking a lottery number, or wait too long before buying a sweepstakes ticket.
That is the choice we are being asked to make in this situation. Any person, law abiding or other, has a duty to protect himself and those he loves. This then is the inherent idiocy of a militarized police force. If no-knocks occur to preserve evidence, the state has decided that that evidence is more important than the life of the people in the home. Also, the state and decided that said evidence is more important that the lives of the LEOs that are charged with getting it.
I can see where a tactical reaction team may be necessary to confront someone who is actually endangering people. I find little value in shock troops being used to enforce our drug laws.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Don,
Beleive me I understand what you are saying. Do you recall a couple of things I said earlier?
1. Most criminals will not have the resources to pull off a fake police raid. Those who do will not be doing it for the fun of it. They will target other 'criminals'.
2 We (police) use the element of supprise and 'over whelming force' the key words here are 'over whelming', for a reason . This show of force, even if many of you think as excessive, DOES SAVE LIVES on both sides. I have confronted armed criminals several times and they have some second thoughts about using their 'arms' when they realize it is a no win situation for them.
All I ask, for those of you capable of it, is to look at this with an open mind.
Comments
Just recently one of the CMP shot a man out doing his job at a cell tower one night. Killed this law abiding citizen, father, husband, pillar of the community. Seems this guy was called out to a cell tower like 2 in the morning. He was in the little building working on equipment when someone called the cops about a strange man out there at the tower. Now this guy was in a marked company truch and all locks was opened with a key.
This cop goes in this building, shoots dead this man. Then claims that he pulled a gun on him. First off everyone who knew him said that he never owned a gun. Second, this man was shot dead inside the building but the the gun was found outside of this building. How does a dead man throw a gun outside of a building?
Of course CMP did an investigation and found no wrong doing on the part of the cop.
Again the cops are suppose to be professionals so why does things like this happen.
The problem is that police officers are suppose to be professionals. There shouldn't be any innocent people getting shot. There shouldn't be any wrong doors being kicked in.
Just recently one of the CMP shot a man out doing his job at a cell tower one night. Killed this law abiding citizen, father, husband, pillar of the community. Seems this guy was called out to a cell tower like 2 in the morning. He was in the little building working on equipment when someone called the cops about a strange man out there at the tower. Now this guy was in a marked company truch and all locks was opened with a key.
This cop goes in this building, shoots dead this man. Then claims that he pulled a gun on him. First off everyone who knew him said that he never owned a gun. Second, this man was shot dead inside the building but the the gun was found outside of this building. How does a dead man throw a gun outside of a building?
Of course CMP did an investigation and found no wrong doing on the part of the cop.
Again the cops are suppose to be professionals so why does things like this happen.
Obviously you've never seen TV or a movie. Everyone knows that when you get hit by a 9mm, you fly back like 900 feet until you smack into something. Any moron could tell that he was shot outside and through the open door of the little building until he hit the wall.
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Two words: governmental immunity
That may apply to "some" agencies at the federal level, but not at the city and county level. Cities and counties get sued all the time and the vast majority of search warrants are at that level.
quote:Originally posted by spanielsells
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Two words: governmental immunity
That may apply to "some" agencies at the federal level, but not at the city and county level. Cities and counties get sued all the time and the vast majority of search warrants are at that level.
No, actually it works quite well on the local level as well. It merely depends on how the laws of the jurisdiction are written.
Don't you live in New Zeland? Have a KIWI cookie. and some milk.
No, I don't.
I live somewhere near Denver, CO.
to get back on topic,
I solemnly swear to kill EVERY SINGLE person who breaks in to my home in the middle of the night. I will make it out alive, I do not know whether or not I may be injured. I do know my house layout better than anyone, I do know that a steel core bullet out of any thirty caliber rifle will stop any invading force.
Violate the sanctity of my home, and i will violate you and every single person you bring with you, in the name of God and all that is good, AMEN! [^]
I will also condemn certain attitudes only in tandem with "law enforcement" if you cannot get the distinction between what is acceptable behavior, and what is acceptable behavior while in a position of authority, then I can see this is pointless.
You think I can't see that? Stop taking what I say I bending it to your agenda
My points concerning your post had nothing to do with authority and it's use and abuse, but you insist on taking what I posted, and turning it into an abuse of authority comment
thats kind of a BS way to conduct a discussion. I can see why you don't see any point, and it's because you can't conceive that I'm not talking about big problems with authority and it's abuse, I'm talking about your own attitudes and how you rationalize your conclusions
And yet you call me a liar when I point out the contradiction. Hey, I don't take offense; you're a little confused. When you finally take the time to consider what other people say, I'll be around to discuss.
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
The only time I will 'feel' that I have to do battle with the police is if (when?) a confiscation law is passed that applies to a weapon I own.
I 'feel' I will have to do battle with any intruder that violently invades my home, regardless of who they pretend to be or what law they are pretending to uphold.
Fact: I do nothing that would warrant an invasion of my home by legitimate authorities.
Corollary Fact: Anyone who violently invades my home is operating outside the law.
Conclusion: I have legitimate reasonable doubt as to the identity of anyone who breaks down my door. I thus have the right to defend myself in any manner I so choose.
Brad Steele
I agree and feel the same way, I never lost sight of that fact.[:)]
That is why I was a good cop and gave the admistration a hard time when they got out of hand.
Bottom line, I am a citizen first, then a Peace Officer.
I am no better than any other freedom loving, honest citizen, regardless of the authority bestowed on me by the virtue of my job.
I take that authority, which is loaned to me, very seriously and attempt every day to be wise and judicious in its use. My oath to support and defend the US Constitution and the Constitution of my State come above any "malum prohibitum" law on the books, period.
Being a cop is not my life, it is a job and one I take great pride in and in which I make every effort to be worthy of the public trust and strive to not be that which I abhor in government.
wartiger:
I have been in Law Enforcement for nearly 14 years, starting in 1995 as a 20 year old jailer. Everyday, I set out to TRY my very best to make the city, zone, neighborhood, that I am patrolling safer, because, I honestly DO care what happens to my fellow man. When a thug imposes a criminal act on a victim in the area of my patrol, I truly feel somewhat responsible, asking myself what I could have done to prevent this. I understand the animosity towards me for what I represent and the image that alot of power-hungry, jack azzes give the majority of us. I am no better than anyone, as previously implied, and I show respect to even the worst, until disrespect is given. ANY LEO, and I use the term generally, who believes himself "better" than those he serves, or above the law he upholds, is a disgrace and has no place in LE. We work for you, the citizens of our county, city, parrish, whatever, and as such, we have to reflect the values, morales and standards that the citizens demand and deserve. Writing tickets and putting people in jail is not what we are here for, and for me, is a last resort.
nunn:
This is Texas, by God! In Texas, travelers can go armed in their vehicles, so I would do nothing about the pistol in the glove box. Might ask him what it is and what sort of ammo he uses.
Three fine examples of the "Peace Officer" mentality. No power-hungry egos to feed. No "looking down" upon the citizens. No abuse of power. Just a desire to "keep the peace" as opposed to "enforcing the law"; Vast difference between the two, and these three examples clearly illustrate the difference.
I interact with the PD every third day. I've met some good, and some bad. I see nothing wrong with a public servant, be they Law, Fire, or EMS, holding themselves to the highest standards of character and integrity. They should. But when that individual develops the mindset that he is somehow "better" than his fellow citizens, the ego, abuse of power, and "looking down upon the citizens" will soon follow.
If in a situation where I needed help, I would hope that I would draw someone with the "Peace Officer" midset. I believe they would be more likely to put themselves at risk to render aid, as opposed to one who views themself as "better" than others. My 2 cents.
I was FTO for most of my time and this one of the warnings I gave the new cops. "Treat people the way you would want to be treated"
There are a FEW bad cops out there and most do not last long. We in the profession do some of our own 'policing' and run them off. With all this PC and affermative action BS makes it harder to do these days. The problem is we are getting some who are to 'idealstic' and not realistic about the job. They try to do everything 'by the book' and don't consider the human factor. Some of what sells experanced is an example of this. I don't know how to counter this, but if it continues LE reputatuion will continue to decline.[V]
Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who is above average, average, or below average in their mental, physical, and emotional abilities??? Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who cares about people and their rights or one who does not care???
I place little value on mental and physical abilities, though a good stable person is necessary. I guess it would be nice if all LEO's were physically in good shape and were of above average intelligence, but the bottom line is temperament and approach. You appear to be a reasonable person, and as stated before, I respect that you have engaged in this thread the way you have. To be perfectly blunt, though, your statements of being better that the average guy, regardless of whether there is empirical data to support it, strikes me as odd, and if not disturbing at least a little off-putting.
To answer your question directly:
I do not care about the intelligence level of or the physical attributes of a police officer. I would prefer a stupid fat policeman who believed in the rights of the individual over that of the state to a perfect physical specimen with a 180 IQ who knew he was better than me.
Brad Steele
I shoot with them on occasion, and they consider me a friend, and the feeling is mutual. I would put my own life on the line to help them if ever needed.
One of them pulled me over a few weeks back as a joke![:D]
He was heading home, and lives in the general area that I do. Spotted my truck, and decided to have some fun with me.
When he exited the cruiser, and I saw him,........I just started shaking my head, as I could see him smiling real big.
Asked me if I was heading home, and if he could swing by my house after he changed, for a look at my AR that he had never seen, and a brewskie or two!
Thought I was about to get my first ticket in over 20 years![:0]
Both are great guys, and have even told me which officers they work with are "azzhats".
I can relate. I moved to AL and the Deputy who came out to do my trailer inspections was a great guy (x-USMC, wife and two youngens). We hit it off and when we started talking guns he told me he had to sell his AR patrol rifle so he could get Christmas gifts for his kids. I loaned him one of my AR's. He now comes by as to several others for coffee or a cold one (off duty)![;)]
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
The only time I will 'feel' that I have to do battle with the police is if (when?) a confiscation law is passed that applies to a weapon I own.
I 'feel' I will have to do battle with any intruder that violently invades my home, regardless of who they pretend to be or what law they are pretending to uphold.
Fact: I do nothing that would warrant an invasion of my home by legitimate authorities.
Corollary Fact: Anyone who violently invades my home is operating outside the law.
Conclusion: I have legitimate reasonable doubt as to the identity of anyone who breaks down my door. I thus have the right to defend myself in any manner I so choose.
Don...... Your original post was directed at anyone invading your home, the police included, for any reason.... at least thats how it reads.
Now you say its only for THEM coming to TAKE AWAY YOUR GUNS, perhaps to lend some credibility to your argument. I can at least have slightly more sympathy for you now that you have narrowed it down a bit.
Getting back to my original point. If the cops come to your house in the dead of night with a warrant issued to your address you would be better served to comply with their demands.
If you feel you need to give armed resistance, we will read about your demise in the next days paper. Or, you could survive the encounter by not resisting and sue them later.
Where I live cities, counties and even the state can be sued if their people act with neglect, maliciously or illegally towards a citizen.
Those here on the forums who live in places where you cannot sue a governmental entity should "work to change the laws". Gee, where have I heard that before...... oh yeh, the thread about sellers shipping guns to calif, but thats another story.
I notice that the Peace Officers STILL disagree with most of your positions..
Puts me in mind of a statement I heard years ago...attributed to some LEO or another...telling a woman's' group..
IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE RAPED...YOU JUST AS WELL LAY BACK AND ENJOY IT..".
You boys haven't come up against any Americans yet.
You are well versed in taking down lots of garbage . .with the occasional innocent lamb thrown in for good measure..
But the day is coming when the average citizen begins to better prepare for your incursions into their private lives.
There was a day when a police officer was honored and respected. That day is slipping away. Thank yourselves for your actions and steadfast defense of the indefensible.
Getting back to my original point. If the cops come to your house in the dead of night with a warrant issued to your address you would be better served to comply with their demands.
If you feel you need to give armed resistance, we will read about your demise in the next days paper. Or, you could survive the encounter by not resisting and sue them later.
After you completely destroy the survival instinct and individual spirit of all Americans, how do you plan to rule us?
I have been told on this thread that the 4th Amendment gives you the authority to invade my home. It does no such thing. The 4th limits you, but it does not limit me. The 4th confirms my individual right to be secure in my home, a right you seem to think I should just relinquish at the time it is most important.
Brad Steele
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
WE ARE NOT THERE TO VIOLATE ANYONES RIGHTS, WE ARE THERE TO PROTECT THEM. WE DON'T RAID HONEST LAW ABIDING CITZENS HOMES AND VIOLATE THEIR RIGHTS. WE GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T MISTAKENLY VIOLATE YOUR RIGHTS!! I was involved in many high risk warrant services (NK warrants) and none of them were served on HONEST LAW ABIDING citizens on purpose or by accident. We never made the mistake you are all so fearful of!!! If we did we would have been held accountable, and rightfuly so.
Like I said folks, COME BACK TO REALITY, please!!!
As for raiding your house to 'take your guns' I REFUSE TO BE A PART OF THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY BECASUE I TOOK AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION!!!
Brad Steele
yes jim, CA_SUCKS was right...
to get back on topic,
I solemnly swear to kill EVERY SINGLE person who breaks in to my home in the middle of the night. I will make it out alive, I do not know whether or not I may be injured. I do know my house layout better than anyone, I do know that a steel core bullet out of any thirty caliber rifle will stop any invading force.
Violate the sanctity of my home, and i will violate you and every single person you bring with you, in the name of God and all that is good, AMEN! [^]
Sweet! but Dang man, remember it's SWAT policy to actually retreat at the first sign of any real resistance. Just burn a mag into the air and they will high tail it out of there till the guy with the loudspeaker shows up to negotiate, at that point just stay away from the windows and wait for the cavalry to arrive. You may be waiting a while.
WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, THE COPS AND THE CITZENS, AGINST THOSE WHO VICTIMIZE YOU!! Don't make thing worse than they are. If you are being victimized you HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF!!
(see below)[8D]
[}:)]
Stop taking what I say I bending it to your agenda
My points concerning your post had nothing to do with authority and it's use and abuse, but you insist on taking what I posted,
....
And yet you call me a liar when I point out the contradiction. Hey, I don't take offense; you're a little confused. When you finally take the time to consider what other people say, I'll be around to discuss.
If you took the tike to consider what I've said, you'll understand there was never any contradiction.
You said:
quote:You say that you feel it's wrong somebody makes snap assumptions about people
In response to me saying "you disgust me Pig" to Jim Rau.
I mentioned someone who makes snap judgements about people, but what I was saying was wrong was Jim Rau's attitude of being better than us
I also think its wrong when a person is given "legal" authority over someone else, and uses it to deal with deeply rooted personal issues they have. Nothing I said, prior to your comment, was intended to condemn making snap judgements. After your comment, I weighed in on the issues - you can make snap judgements all you want, but its wrong in a position of legal authority.
You are confused about what I say, and thus distort what I say, you don't seem to get the point.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
I have some questions for all of you who are bad mouthing me.[?]
Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who is above average, average, or below average in their mental, physical, and emotional abilities??? Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who cares about people and their rights or one who does not care???
I'd rather have one thats not dyslexic, knows and respects the limits of constitution, and doesn't look down on citizens, or boss them around to compensate for their own inferiority complex.
Once agin you show your prejudice, based on ignorance, by making a statement you can not back up with fact!!! I truly feel sorry for you.[:(]
I can't contradict this terminology. I have been an LEO for 32 years, and I have seen first hand that they exist. Their out there, and I fear dealing with them myself, so I fully understand how someone who isn't in LE can feel at times.
Trinity +++
If you are being victimized you HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF!!
(see below)[8D]
There you go, Jim. That wasn't so hard, now. Was it?[:)]
Brad Steele
You just don't get it do you???[V]
WE ARE NOT THERE TO VIOLATE ANYONES RIGHTS, WE ARE THERE TO PROTECT THEM. WE DON'T RAID HONEST LAW ABIDING CITZENS HOMES AND VIOLATE THEIR RIGHTS. WE GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE SURE WE DON'T MISTAKENLY VIOLATE YOUR RIGHTS!! I was involved in many high risk warrant services (NK warrants) and none of them were served on HONEST LAW ABIDING citizens on purpose or by accident. We never made the mistake you are all so fearful of!!! If we did we would have been held accountable, and rightfuly so.
Like I said folks, COME BACK TO REALITY, please!!!
As for raiding your house to 'take your guns' I REFUSE TO BE A PART OF THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY BECASUE I TOOK AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION!!!
You're just jokin', right? Please tell me you're just jokin'
(nervous chuckle)
Submit or be killed.
Stand up for your rights and protect yourself, property and family no matter how justified and legal it may be you will be killed.
I have been in LE since 1-1-74 and I first saw this 'new breed' in the early 90's. I thing there are several reasons for this:
1. They are requiring cops to have degrees, which means they have little to no live experance which would help them on the street, and they are to idealistic.
2. The training in the academy over stress officer safety to the point the new folks are down right scarred.
3. Our schools and society in general are much less violent and much more touchie feely now than when you and I grew up. Thus most have never been in a 'street' fight and lack the confidence to deal with minor violence. They over react.
4. They require a psyc test which will rule out anyone who does have true life experance as 'to violent' for the job.
Your thoughts sir?
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
+10
Don.... Bottom line... Do what ever you want, I dont really care. When it comes right down to it, you would probably answer the door and let them in.
Oh yeh....... the black helicopters are still out there.
Don.... Bottom line... Do what ever you want, I dont really care. When it comes right down to it, you would probably answer the door and let them in.
Oh yeh....... the black helicopters are still out there.
If they knock, of course I will.
Brad Steele
Sir, you hit the nail on the head. The problem is usualy not with the small town local LEO. It is with the larger departments who have these requirements.
Trinity +++
I have some questions for all of you who are bad mouthing me.[?]
Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who is above average, average, or below average in their mental, physical, and emotional abilities??? Would you prefer to have a police officer handle your call who cares about people and their rights or one who does not care???
You mean one that does not believe we have secret courts in the U.S.? One that does not believe there are plenty of secret warrants, NK and others, issued by these courts? One that does not believe the earth is round. Or would I rather have one that did not think they knew everything, and could spend 10 seconds googling Secret Courts, and find out some facts. I guess I would choose the later of the two. I have noted that you are ashamed to admit, you are wrong about anything such as Secret Courts, you do not want to address it, because you were never "let in on it" while you were a LE officer. Maybe they are a little bit more "choosey"( like Jif peanut butter)than I thought.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
That's just ducky. My wife, however, does not become a widow if I guess wrong when picking a lottery number, or wait too long before buying a sweepstakes ticket.
That is the choice we are being asked to make in this situation. Any person, law abiding or other, has a duty to protect himself and those he loves. This then is the inherent idiocy of a militarized police force. If no-knocks occur to preserve evidence, the state has decided that that evidence is more important than the life of the people in the home. Also, the state and decided that said evidence is more important that the lives of the LEOs that are charged with getting it.
I can see where a tactical reaction team may be necessary to confront someone who is actually endangering people. I find little value in shock troops being used to enforce our drug laws.
Brad Steele
Beleive me I understand what you are saying. Do you recall a couple of things I said earlier?
1. Most criminals will not have the resources to pull off a fake police raid. Those who do will not be doing it for the fun of it. They will target other 'criminals'.
2 We (police) use the element of supprise and 'over whelming force' the key words here are 'over whelming', for a reason . This show of force, even if many of you think as excessive, DOES SAVE LIVES on both sides. I have confronted armed criminals several times and they have some second thoughts about using their 'arms' when they realize it is a no win situation for them.
All I ask, for those of you capable of it, is to look at this with an open mind.