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It is my belief that Jim does represent the opinion of the majority of LEOs, which was the purpose of the thread. There are obviously all shades of grey, but of the LEOs I have known, it was my impression that one of the prime motivators for choosing the profession was the power trip.
That mentality, coupled with the expectation that all 'good' people will submit, makes for a dangerous dynamic in a supposedly free society. As we move towards more and more governmental control and intrusion in our day-to-day lives, the expectation of submission is ever more prevalent. We are forced to submit to random stops at checkpoints along heavily travelled highways 'for the public good', and are told that if we have nothing to hide we should have not a problem with being stopped.
Bullsnot! Freedom cannot co-exist with a submissive populace. This assumed legal superiority tears at the fabric of our liberties and our very humanity.
That said, it serves a much greater good to fully understand the attitude so as to better understand the problem.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
It is my belief that Jim does represent the opinion of the majority of LEOs, which was the purpose of the thread. There are obviously all shades of grey, but of the LEOs I have known, it was my impression that one of the prime motivators for choosing the profession was the power trip.
That mentality, coupled with the expectation that all 'good' people will submit, makes for a dangerous dynamic in a supposedly free society. As we move towards more and more governmental control and intrusion in our day-to-day lives, the expectation of submission is ever more prevalent. We are forced to submit to random stops at checkpoints along heavily travelled highways 'for the public good', and are told that if we have nothing to hide we should have not a problem with being stopped.
Bullsnot! Freedom cannot co-exist with a submissive populace. This assumed legal superiority tears at the fabric of our liberties and our very humanity.
That said, it serves a much greater good to fully understand the attitude so as to better understand the problem.
Don,
Often, you and I say things in different ways, but in the end, we wind up trying to say the same thing. This is such the case.
Well I guess this a case of selective hearing on your part.
Sells, I never said anyone should not defend their self, home, or family. I nearly lost my job because I was so out spoken on the behalf of the second amendment and individuals right to be armed and use the arms for selfdefence (see below). I never said LEO's do not make mistakes when it comes to NK warrants. I did try to explan what goes into our attempts to avoid this type of situation. I did try to advise you and other how to handle a VERY bad situation, even though it is all but impossible you will ever find yourselves in this situation. You are correct when you said I labled you as a 'crack pot', becasue you are. You showed your closeminded ingnorace by distorting what I say to fit your prejudicial attitude.
I have gotten into hot water many times during my career because I refuse to violate peoples rights. I grew up on the 'wrong side of the tracks' and had no love for the cops. You simply don't like cops and it shows. If you maintain this attitue and have a contact with the law you will most certinly find your self between a rock and hard place. But life is all about decissions, you make yours, I will make mine.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Well I guess this a case of selective hearing on your part.
Sells, I never said anyone should not defend their self, home, or family. I nearly lost my job because I was so out spoken on the behalf of the second amendment and individuals right to be armed and use the arms for selfdefence (see below). I never said LEO's do not make mistakes when it comes to NK warrants. I did try to explan what goes into our attempts to avoid this type of situation. I did try to advise you and other how to handle a VERY bad situation, even though it is all but impossible you will ever find yourselves in this situation. You are correct when you said I labled you as a 'crack pot', becasue you are. You showed your closeminded ingnorace by distorting what I say to fit your prejudicial attitude.
I have gotten into hot water many times during my career because I refuse to violate peoples rights. I grew up on the 'wrong side of the tracks' and had no love for the cops. You simply don't like cops and it shows. If you maintain this attitue and have a contact with the law you will most certinly find your self between a rock and hard place. But life is all about decissions, you make yours, I will make mine.
Yeah, okay, whatever. FWIW, I have contact with LEOs all the time. In fact, my next door neighbor is a LEO. Again, you speak of what you do not know and you do not know ANYTHING about me, what I do for a living, and what I have done for a living. I've had more contact with LEOs than you'll ever know... I've spent 15 years interacting with LEOs on a day-to-day basis. I can deal with them just fine, and I have never, ever found myself between a rock and a hard place dealing with LEOs. But, then again, you know everything, don't you?
I don't dislike LEOs, I do dislike the superiority complex that many of them have, just as you demonstrate quite thoroughly in your posts.
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
I think this topic is moot. If the police or someone breaks into your home yelling "POLICE"! and you shoot? several things will happen. One, you will be dead, because they are much better prepared for this eventuallity than you are in the AM. Two you submit, then you can sue for damages and, "If you can proove malice or criminal intent" then you will be awarded compensation by the courts. If no malice is proven and it is just a stupid error on the part of the Affiant then is it really worth dying to prove you have rights? Now, having said that, If you respond with force and kill an officer and you escape unharmed you will be charged. Here in New Mexico you will be aqquited if you are indeed the wrong party than what the warrant states. If not than you just commited Capital Murder. If you repond with deadly force and kill "Home Invaders", then you will not be charged and most likely will be thought to be a hero. At least here in New Mexico.
If and when there is a general siezure of firearms accross the country. I truly believe that you will need many like minded freinds to fight against this tyranny. You alone in the AM will easily be taken. I dont care what kind of Arsenal you have. I have served many a search warrant where the bad guys had many guns and folded for lack of courage at the last moment. Saying you are a hero on the WEB is much different than sitting alone while ATF and Blackwater are waiting you out, looking for the sweet shot. All the while Action 7 News is portraying you as some psychotic loner with a masssive Arsenal of weapons and is mentally unbalanced.
quote:Originally posted by CA sucks
quote:Originally posted by Blairweescot
but isn't the "you disgust me pig" routine the same attitude as the woman you're talking about, who makes assumptions?
The difference is I'm not given a carte blanche to shoot anyone and enforce my will on the populace.
I also don't make statements like Jim did like "I am better than you"(paraphrasing). Nor do I presume that I shouldn't be held accountable or confronted when I am in the wrong.
If LEOs invade the wrong house, they act outside the law, and deserve to be shot. PERIOD.
The point about the constitution allowing for warrants ignores the practice if serving warrants at the time - none of this no knock entry BS.
Show up, knock on the door, wait a reasonable time, if they come hand them the paper, wait a reasonable time for them to read it and enter.
If you have to, park way doen the street, have your swat team hiding, ready to make an entry, and send only 1 officer to the door to not raise too much suspicion - do not enter if the person is home without making a reasonable attempt to present the warrant.
Without presenting the warrant, the person has no reasonable way of discerning a lawful entry, and is justified in shooting whoever comes in.
If I were on a jury, and the defendant shot police coming in the house (and somehow lived through it - perhaps killing the first 1 orgroup, realizing they were cops, and surrendering splayed on the ground before the 2nd group came), and the police raided the right house in a no-knock warrant, I still would not convict.
The police initiated a raid with lethal force intending to cause confusion, they are the instigator, they hold the responsibility.
Why can't they wait until the person leaves, raid the house, and be waiting outside to present the warrant when the person comes back?
That's all irrelevant
You say that you feel it's wrong somebody makes snap assumptions about people, then you do the same thing by generalizing with a statement based on what you assume
Nothing about this "but I don't have carte blanche" stuff has any bearing
If I ever win the lottery I'm gonna buy an island and invite all who understand and appreciate freedom, common sense, and individual responsibility to come live in a tropical paradise with me.
I will always believe some of the finest men on earth post here at GB.
505,
I don't think you have said anything I have not. But some folks are so set in their prejudices they don't respond well to those they are attacking when the explaination is not what they want to hear.[;)]
quote:Originally posted by kyplumber
If I ever win the lottery I'm gonna buy an island and invite all who understand and appreciate freedom, common sense, and individual responsibility to come live in a tropical paradise with me.
I will always believe some of the finest men on earth post here at GB.
If you change that from an island to a forested mountain range in the Rockies, I'll give it some serious thought.[;)]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
What experience do I have to qualify me to pass judgment?
LIFE.
I've found myself face-down in the middle of the street, mistaken for someone else, with over a dozen guns pointed at me. I complied fully with the orders of the LEOs there. I was forced to lay on the asphalt, face down, hands behind my head, outside temperature well over 100 degrees. When they found out that I was not the person that they were looking for, did I even get an apology? No, I got attitude.
This was July 4th two years ago, you can search these forums and find the posting about it yourself. The LEOs were after my friend who was suicidal - we were there to try and calm him down.
When they did arrest my friend, they confiscated the guns in his house. I spoke on behalf of my friend's wife and asked for the LEOs to give her a receipt for the confiscated guns. Did they produce a receipt? No, but they did produce attitude and fought me tooth and nail about why a police case number was "good enough" for her. After demanding to be put in touch with their superiors, they finally wrote up a receipt.
I've dealt with LEOs day-in-day-out for 15 years in my previous profession. I've dealt with everyone from the investigating officers at a crime scene to the records officers to get copies of police reports. I've done this in literally hundreds of jurisdictions. Joe Citizen is treated to attitude by LEOs more often than not.
And, FWIW, I do not provide LEOs with a reason to start off with attitude. I approach them professionally and only push back when pushed.
My neighbor is a friendly guy. But, the superiority complex he has just oozes from him, as do most LEOs that I speak with. We chat quite frequently but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'd ever tell him I'm a gun owner - from the conversations we have I've heard more times than I care to admit about how only trained LEOs should have guns.
Again, I don't paint all LEOs with the broad brush. I've talked to some decent people both ITRW and online who are LEOs. Those that do not suffer from a superiority complex are in the extreme minority.
quote:Originally posted by spanielsells
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
What experience do I have to qualify me to pass judgment?
LIFE.
I've found myself face-down in the middle of the street, mistaken for someone else, with over a dozen guns pointed at me. I complied fully with the orders of the LEOs there. I was forced to lay on the asphalt, face down, hands behind my head, outside temperature well over 100 degrees. When they found out that I was not the person that they were looking for, did I even get an apology? No, I got attitude.
This was July 4th two years ago, you can search these forums and find the posting about it yourself. The LEOs were after my friend who was suicidal - we were there to try and calm him down.
When they did arrest my friend, they confiscated the guns in his house. I spoke on behalf of my friend's wife and asked for the LEOs to give her a receipt for the confiscated guns. Did they produce a receipt? No, but they did produce attitude and fought me tooth and nail about why a police case number was "good enough" for her. After demanding to be put in touch with their superiors, they finally wrote up a receipt.
I've dealt with LEOs day-in-day-out for 15 years in my previous profession. I've dealt with everyone from the investigating officers at a crime scene to the records officers to get copies of police reports. I've done this in literally hundreds of jurisdictions. Joe Citizen is treated to attitude by LEOs more often than not.
And, FWIW, I do not provide LEOs with a reason to start off with attitude. I approach them professionally and only push back when pushed.
My neighbor is a friendly guy. But, the superiority complex he has just oozes from him, as do most LEOs that I speak with. We chat quite frequently but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'd ever tell him I'm a gun owner - from the conversations we have I've heard more times than I care to admit about how only trained LEOs should have guns.
Again, I don't paint all LEOs with the broad brush. I've talked to some decent people both ITRW and online who are LEOs. Those that do not suffer from a superiority complex are in the extreme minority.
Invite him over, show him your m82a1 and tell him how you don't much care for JBT's, explain to him how his ceramic plate will shatter, explain how kevlar fibers will expand at such a rapid rate some fibers will push from his nose to his toes. Tell him you were playing with firearms since before you were playing with your gun, explain that when shtf he will need your help and not vice versa.
Then tell him you think his wife is real pretty with those shorts on.
quote:Originally posted by kyplumber
quote:Originally posted by spanielsells
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
What experience do I have to qualify me to pass judgment?
LIFE.
I've found myself face-down in the middle of the street, mistaken for someone else, with over a dozen guns pointed at me. I complied fully with the orders of the LEOs there. I was forced to lay on the asphalt, face down, hands behind my head, outside temperature well over 100 degrees. When they found out that I was not the person that they were looking for, did I even get an apology? No, I got attitude.
This was July 4th two years ago, you can search these forums and find the posting about it yourself. The LEOs were after my friend who was suicidal - we were there to try and calm him down.
When they did arrest my friend, they confiscated the guns in his house. I spoke on behalf of my friend's wife and asked for the LEOs to give her a receipt for the confiscated guns. Did they produce a receipt? No, but they did produce attitude and fought me tooth and nail about why a police case number was "good enough" for her. After demanding to be put in touch with their superiors, they finally wrote up a receipt.
I've dealt with LEOs day-in-day-out for 15 years in my previous profession. I've dealt with everyone from the investigating officers at a crime scene to the records officers to get copies of police reports. I've done this in literally hundreds of jurisdictions. Joe Citizen is treated to attitude by LEOs more often than not.
And, FWIW, I do not provide LEOs with a reason to start off with attitude. I approach them professionally and only push back when pushed.
My neighbor is a friendly guy. But, the superiority complex he has just oozes from him, as do most LEOs that I speak with. We chat quite frequently but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'd ever tell him I'm a gun owner - from the conversations we have I've heard more times than I care to admit about how only trained LEOs should have guns.
Again, I don't paint all LEOs with the broad brush. I've talked to some decent people both ITRW and online who are LEOs. Those that do not suffer from a superiority complex are in the extreme minority.
Invite him over, show him your m82a1 and tell him how you don't much care for JBT's, explain to him how his ceramic plate will shatter, explain how kevlar fibers will expand at such a rapid rate some fibers will push from his nose to his toes. Tell him you were playing with firearms since before you were playing with your gun, explain that when shtf he will need your help and not vice versa.
Then tell him you think his wife is real pretty with those shorts on.
LOL. If you're referring to my neighbor, his wife left him a year ago. She was very nice, and cute.
Wrong agin. Those who do have a superiory complex are in the minority. Many new (rookie) cops get this attitude but most out grow it within the first 3 to 5 years. I was correct in my assumtion that you had some bad contacts with police and it left you with a some what justifiable negative attitude. Of all the cops I knew there were less than 10 who were antigun (beleived only cops and military should be armed). And I knew about the same number who were arragont AH's. Most of them were x-army officers!?!?
I am sorry you have this attitude. My #2 son has the same attitude becasue he was roughed up by some SO's as a teen. He does have a 'mouth' and an attitude which aggervated the situation. I see the same in you. But as I have told him two wrong do not make a right. Weather you like it or not we ,as cop's, MUST take charge we don't have a program to tell us the good guys from the bad. So until things are deesclated and the parties are ID'd we have to take charge. I am sorry if you feel you must resist this, and I am sorry those who handled your situation did not apoligize. I have 'unarrested' many people and appoliged and explained my actions to them. Most atleast said they understood and many thanked me.
Cops are people. And people can be a**holes, in a uniform, or not
Had good and bad experiences with cops. Gotten a lot of attitude over nothing. I've had them tell me to do dangerous things because of their ignorance. I've also had cops say to me "Great shooting" and been honestly pleased I did well. Had one authorize a burnout for me at a gas station once, too. When the cop says "light em up" to me, the only answer is 'sir yes sir'
You're gonna get a person inside the uniform, and some of the persons are jerks. You'd never notice a cop who was polite and nice and did a good job nine times out of nine times unless you talked to him or her. Get a bad one and you can remember it forever and see it a mile away
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Wrong agin. Those who do have a superiory complex are in the minority. Many new (rookie) cops get this attitude but most out grow it within the first 3 to 5 years. I was correct in my assumtion that you had some bad contacts with police and it left you with a some what justifiable negative attitude. Of all the cops I knew there were less than 10 who were antigun (beleived only cops and military should be armed). And I knew about the same number who were arragont AH's. Most of them were x-army officers!?!?
I am sorry you have this attitude. My #2 son has the same attitude becasue he was roughed up by some SO's as a teen. He does have a 'mouth' and an attitude which aggervated the situation. I see the same in you. But as I have told him two wrong do not make a right. Weather you like it or not we ,as cop's, MUST take charge we don't have a program to tell us the good guys from the bad. So until things are deesclated and the parties are ID'd we have to take charge. I am sorry if you feel you must resist this, and I am sorry those who handled your situation did not apoligize. I have 'unarrested' many people and appoliged and explained my actions to them. Most atleast said they understood and many thanked me.
I don't have a "mouth." As I have stated already, I am very respectful to LEOs when I am dealing with them face-to-face. The only time I push back is after I've been pushed. If you classify that as having a "mouth" then you've got a strange sense of the term. But, someone with a superiority complex who expects respect and submission from everyone else thinks that way.
I have no problem with the LEOs asking me to face down on the street when they thought I was the person they were after. I do have a problem when I'm burning my face, arms and legs on probably 160-degree asphalt and nobody bothers to apologize. I understand they have a job to do. Once I am cleared, as I was, the proper and decent thing to do was to apologize. Those with superiority complexes see no need for apologies. Out of probably the 20+ officers that were at the scene, nobody apologized. That's 20+ officers with superiority complexes.
I have no problem with the LEOs confiscating the guns until things could be sorted out. I do have a problem with LEOs telling me (or anyone else) that providing a receipt after confiscating several hundred dollars worth of private property is unnecessary. LEOs are not immune to temptation and theft of items that never make it to the property room does happen. If you don't believe that, there are enough people on this very forum that can attest otherwise. Why should it take a threat to go over an officer's head to get something as simple as a receipt? For the 20 minutes we were arguing about it, he could have written a thousand receipts. But, due to his superiority complex, it was more important to be right than to do the right thing.
quote:Originally posted by Blairweescot
That's all irrelevant
You say that you feel it's wrong somebody makes snap assumptions about people, then you do the same thing by generalizing with a statement based on what you assume
I never said any such thing. But on the subject there is huge difference between a prejudice citizen, and a prejudice person with "legal" authority over another person.
If you are going to accuse me of being a hypocrite, I might as well just throw it out there that you are a liar.
Jim Rau: I don't think that invitation extends to you.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
we would be not better than you, and then we could not do the job we are sworn to do.
Pig. "We're better than you" ?!?! WTH, you do nothing to improve the image of cops.
I don't go around mouthing off to cops, I've been pulled over for extremely minor traffic violations multiple times, and never gotten a ticket. I am not rude to cops in person, and I respect the force they can bring (not the person). On a one on one basis, I don't transfer my dislike of cops collectively to them.
But your statements have proven you are the type of cop I hate (there are some good ones, and I have met some).
I would always convict the raider, and never the raidee if I were on a jury.
But I don't advocate shooting at cops if they break in (and you realize they are cops in time). I know how to choose my battles, and when its worth fighting, and when its not worth fighting.
Even our founders realized this:
quote: Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
However, were the government to get bad enough here that the law was to be challenged, your attitude would make you a lot of mortal enemies.
Of course, we aren't anywhere near open nationwide civil war as far as I can tell (but who knows, Obama could get elected, some racist could off him, then rioting in the streets nationwide that would make the LA race riots seem like a picnic, followed by declaration of martial law... etc). Nonetheless, your attitude won't make you many friends
any person with one beer in them is a violent drunk
That is what you disagree with, yes?
Or was it not you that said this?
Then you post "you disgust me pig" based on the merest of information...these are not similar attitudes?
If you want people to be open minded and not make judgments like that, you could ask if you can be open minded yourself. It can be hard to do. Hey, I gotta go, have a good night...easy on the "liar" business. That stuff can come back at you
A LEO may face, at any time, day or night, a genuine armed bad guy. He does this for YOU, YOUR family, YOUR children.
You assume alot numb nuts. Every police officer that I know including family memebers couldn't care less if someone fell over dead tommorrow. I know they do the job for much different reasons. I'm not saying all do, but I'll bet there are a good portion that do.
quote:Originally posted by triple223tap
What a bunch of mealy-mouth wannabee turds.
An LEO posts here, and you nameless, shameless jizzmonkeys jump on him.
A LEO may face, at any time, day or night, a genuine armed bad guy. He does this for YOU, YOUR family, YOUR children.
And he does it for small money.
And you whinning ninnys complain?
Pack your bags, spanielsells. Go see how kindly the IDF will treat you in your homeland.
Look tripletap. DROP THE ISRAELI CRAP ALREADY. I'm Jewish - how and why you seem fascinated over the notion that my being Jewish means that I worship Israel is explained only by the white sheet you hide behind.
Now, for the real part of the conversation.
LEOs don't do their job to protect you, your family, or your loved ones (you know, your buddies in the white sheets). LEOs do not protect as it is not a LEO's job to protect (I don't care what the side of the police car says). The job of a LEO, as anyone with any intelligence knows, is to respond to and investigate a crime scene, traffic accident, etc.
So plumber, does the sucks dude speak for you now???[;)]
223, I do care about people, but I do not loose sleep when I have to use force to do the job. I do not make the decission to use force, the person I am dealing with does. When ever possible, I would give them the choice to act like civilized person or to act like an animal.
I am taking flak because I said I was 'better' than some. Well let me tell you to be a 'good' cop you MUST be a cut above the rest. Physicaly, mentaly, emotionaly, and have above average personal integrity. Just a fact. Why do you think the police departments all over this country are having a very hard time finding QUALIFIED applicants????[?]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
So plumber, does the sucks dude speak for you now???[;)]
223, I do care about people, but I do not loose sleep when I have to use force to do the job. I do not make the decission to use force, the person I am dealing with does. When ever possible, I would give them the choice to act like civilized person or to act like an animal.
I am taking flak because I said I was 'better' than some. Well let me tell you to be a 'good' cop you MUST be a cut above the rest. Physicaly, mentaly, emotionaly, and have above average personal integrity. Just a fact. Why do you think the police departments all over this country are having a very hard time finding QUALIFIED applicants????[?]
And, instead of finding QUALIFIED candidates, they simply LOWER THE QUALIFICATIONS, which gives us the LEOs we have to deal with.
Now, we're starting to get somewhere in this conversation.
quote:Originally posted by Blairweescot
But you are saying it:
You condemn a person for making snap judgements:
any person with one beer in them is a violent drunk
That is what you disagree with, yes?
Or was it not you that said this?
Then you post "you disgust me pig" based on the merest of information...these are not similar attitudes?
If you want people to be open minded and not make judgments like that, you could ask if you can be open minded yourself. It can be hard to do. Hey, I gotta go, have a good night...easy on the "liar" business. That stuff can come back at you
I condemn Jim Rau based on his arrogant above the law attitude.
I also offer an example of a person I know who became a police officer (my "you disgust me pig" was not aimed at her) for all the wrong reasons (take out her angst against her dad on the general populace - people with inferiority complexes don't belong in law enforcement - she was a friend, but I think becoming a cop with her attitude is a bad idea)
I will also condemn certain attitudes only in tandem with "law enforcement" if you cannot get the distinction between what is acceptable behavior, and what is acceptable behavior while in a position of authority, then I can see this is pointless.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Can't you read, or is it you just don't care about the reality of this.[xx(]
Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
This is living proof, Common sense is dead in this world.[;)]
If you want to get upset about something, pick something which has some PROBALITY of causing you harm!![:p]
I agree with you that the police get the right house 99% of the time. I also agree that being a cop is a lousy job and they don't get paid nearly enough.
All that said, I do really worry about how militarized the police are becoming, and how many police departments are using officer safety as an excuse for just about any action.
For example, I live in a very safe, quiet community. There's the rare murder, a rape here and there, some drugs, but my county--roughly 3 times the size of Pittsburgh--has nowhere near the problems. The police have decided to use the SWAT team a great deal. A while back, they used SWAT to arrest a guy accused of running a sports book. No ties to organized crime, no prior record, never been arrested--the guy was an optometrist, for Pete's sake. The guy pulls up to him home after getting off of work, a SWAT officer jumps out of his van and shoots the guy dead center in the chest. No "stop police" or anything in the guy's hand, just shoots the guy dead center in the chest. The guy dies.
Of course the SWAT officer said the pistol malfunctioned and accidentally discharged, but why was a SWAT officer pointing his pistol at the chest of this man? Why was his weapon even drawn? Why was a SWAT officer even present?
After reading all these posts, I feel I must respond. I have been in Law Enforcement for nearly 14 years, starting in 1995 as a 20 year old jailer. Everyday, I set out to TRY my very best to make the city, zone, neighborhood, that I am patrolling safer, because, I honestly DO care what happens to my fellow man. When a thug imposes a criminal act on a victim in the area of my patrol, I truly feel somewhat responsible, asking myself what I could have done to prevent this. I understand the animosity towards me for what I represent and the image that alot of power-hungry, jack azzes give the majority of us. I am no better than anyone, as previously implied, and I show respect to even the worst, until disrespect is given. ANY LEO, and I use the term generally, who believes himself "better" than those he serves, or above the law he upholds, is a disgrace and has no place in LE. We work for you, the citizens of our county, city, parrish, whatever, and as such, we have to reflect the values, morales and standards that the citizens demand and deserve. Writing tickets and putting people in jail is not what we are here for, and for me, is a last resort. Just my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by mlincoln
The guy was an optometrist, for Pete's sake. The guy pulls up to him home after getting off of work, a SWAT officer jumps out of his van and shoots the guy dead center in the chest. No "stop police" or anything in the guy's hand, just shoots the guy dead center in the chest. The guy dies.
Of course the SWAT officer said the pistol malfunctioned and accidentally discharged, but why was a SWAT officer pointing his pistol at the chest of this man? Why was his weapon even drawn? Why was a SWAT officer even present?
Were I on a jury, I'd convict him so fast, but what would you bet that the DA pressed no charges (oops, bet, am I gonna get shot now for gambling?)
There was a time when an incident like that would spark a local revolt to rectify the problem when the government refuses to bring the murderer to justice.
mlincoln,
I could not agree with you more. This is one of my complaints about the 'new' breed of cops.
And sucks, I do not have an 'above the law' attitude. I have no idea where you got that from. The 'law' applies to me the same as everyone else. I do know I am a cut above the rest of the folks. I use to think of myself as 'average' until I went to retire and I looked back at my life and service. I had nemorus people from all over commend me on good job and good attitude I had. When we started our PT program I was the only one out of 350+ officers to get a 100% on it and I continued to be in the top 95+% until I retired. I have had judges and attorneys, on both sides, tell me they considered me one of the most honest and caring people they had been associated with and wished there more like me. I had many of the counclers in the YVS commend me and even ask if I would consider working with them when I retired. I had many doctors and nurses say the same. And littery every officer, even those I did not always get along with, say if the chit hit the fan I was the one they want there. So yes, I have come to realize I am a cut above the rest.
But the best comliments I have received is from many people I have handled over the years who let me know they appreciated the way I delt with them and many said they thought about what I said and changed their lives. Unless or until you have experanced the ups and downs of LE you can't come close to knowing how I feel or where I am comming from.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
mlincoln,
I could not agree with you more. This is one of my complaints about the 'new' breed of cops.
And sucks, I do not have an 'above the law' attitude. I have no idea where you got that from. The 'law' applies to me the same as everyone else. I do know I am a cut above the rest of the folks. I use to think of myself as 'average' until I went to retire and I looked back at my life and service. I had nemorus people from all over commend me on good job and good attitude I had. When we started our PT program I was the only one out of 350+ officers to get a 100% on it and I continued to be in the top 95+% until I retired. I have had judges and attorneys, on both sides, tell me they considered me one of the most honest and caring people they had been associated with and wished there more like me. I had many of the counclers in the YVS commend me and even ask if I would consider working with them when I retired. I had many doctors and nurses say the same. And littery every officer, even those I did not always get along with, say if the chit hit the fan I was the one they want there. So yes, I have come to realize I am a cut above the rest.
But the best comliments I have received is from many people I have handled over the years who let me know they appreciated the way I delt with them and many said they thought about what I said and changed their lives. Unless or until you have experanced the ups and downs of LE you can't come close to knowing how I feel or where I am comming from.
Your hand ever get tired from all the patting yourself on the back?
You sure brag about yourself alot. Says alot about your character.
Like I said I am looking back and I am anything but 'average'. If you can't look back at this point in your life (I will have the 21st anaversary of my 39th birthday next month) and see the truth I pitty you. When I look back from High School on I was always in the 95%+ of any thing I did or tried to do (except spelling[;)]). I did not say I was better than average because I was a cop. But I am above average in litterly everything I do. There are those out there who are also above average and certinly many better than I, but for all those above average there as many below average and alot of average folks. It is just a matter of looking at the math. [:)]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
mlincoln,
I could not agree with you more. This is one of my complaints about the 'new' breed of cops.
And sucks, I do not have an 'above the law' attitude. I have no idea where you got that from. The 'law' applies to me the same as everyone else. I do know I am a cut above the rest of the folks. I use to think of myself as 'average' until I went to retire and I looked back at my life and service. I had nemorus people from all over commend me on good job and good attitude I had. When we started our PT program I was the only one out of 350+ officers to get a 100% on it and I continued to be in the top 95+% until I retired. I have had judges and attorneys, on both sides, tell me they considered me one of the most honest and caring people they had been associated with and wished there more like me. I had many of the counclers in the YVS commend me and even ask if I would consider working with them when I retired. I had many doctors and nurses say the same. And littery every officer, even those I did not always get along with, say if the chit hit the fan I was the one they want there. So yes, I have come to realize I am a cut above the rest.
But the best comliments I have received is from many people I have handled over the years who let me know they appreciated the way I delt with them and many said they thought about what I said and changed their lives. Unless or until you have experanced the ups and downs of LE you can't come close to knowing how I feel or where I am comming from.
Well sir, I've experienced the "ups and downs" of police work and I don't feel anything like what you have posted, nor do I subscribe to much of what you've stated.
I'll state that I've had a far more varied career than what you've described for yourself.
Bottom line, I am a citizen first, then a Peace Officer.
I am no better than any other freedom loving, honest citizen, regardless of the authority bestowed on me by the virtue of my job.
I take that authority, which is loaned to me, very seriously and attempt every day to be wise and judicious in its use. My oath to support and defend the US Constitution and the Constitution of my State come above any "malum prohibitum" law on the books, period.
Being a cop is not my life, it is a job and one I take great pride in and in which I make every effort to be worthy of the public trust and strive to not be that which I abhor in government.
One, a man worthy of all the respect reserved for honorable, decent men, doing a nasty job with care, attention to the Founding documents, and respect for their fellow man.
And the other one.
Every time I read the threads concerning.."Would you stop to help a police officer"...I wonder.
Is it a decent Peace Officer, being assualted by a vicious thug...or just another arrogant thug with a badge...getting his comeuppence from an outraged citizen fed up with being pushed around by one of his BETTERS......???
Well sir, I've experienced the "ups and downs" of police work and I don't feel anything like what you have posted, nor do I subscribe to much of what you've stated.
I'll state that I've had a far more varied career than what you've described for yourself.
Bottom line, I am a citizen first, then a Peace Officer.
I am no better than any other freedom loving, honest citizen, regardless of the authority bestowed on me by the virtue of my job.
I take that authority, which is loaned to me, very seriously and attempt every day to be wise and judicious in its use. My oath to support and defend the US Constitution and the Constitution of my State come above any "malum prohibitum" law on the books, period.
Being a cop is not my life, it is a job and one I take great pride in and in which I make every effort to be worthy of the public trust and strive to not be that which I abhor in government.
Captain, same here. I am beginning to wonder why the need for all the chest thumping. As I said before, Law Enfrocement works for the people, and we are no better than the people we serve. In clarification, yes, we are SUPPOSED to be of higher morales, ethics, and standards, but what I am inferring from the above posts is that he feels that he is worth more, that his life is more valuable. I can and will applaud and respect anyone who lives to higher standards, excels and strives to be the best that he/she can be, hell, I do that, but to imply that you are "better" than the next guy, I feel this to be condescending(sp?). And do it because it's right, not for internet glory.
Mr. Rau, I see that while we might agree on alot of things and have very similiar opinions and feelings, as we are both in L.E, we do differ ALOT.
I agree with you that the police get the right house 99% of the time. I also agree that being a cop is a lousy job and they don't get paid nearly enough.
All that said, I do really worry about how militarized the police are becoming, and how many police departments are using officer safety as an excuse for just about any action.
For example, I live in a very safe, quiet community. There's the rare murder, a rape here and there, some drugs, but my county--roughly 3 times the size of Pittsburgh--has nowhere near the problems. The police have decided to use the SWAT team a great deal. A while back, they used SWAT to arrest a guy accused of running a sports book. No ties to organized crime, no prior record, never been arrested--the guy was an optometrist, for Pete's sake. The guy pulls up to him home after getting off of work, a SWAT officer jumps out of his van and shoots the guy dead center in the chest. No "stop police" or anything in the guy's hand, just shoots the guy dead center in the chest. The guy dies.
Of course the SWAT officer said the pistol malfunctioned and accidentally discharged, but why was a SWAT officer pointing his pistol at the chest of this man? Why was his weapon even drawn? Why was a SWAT officer even present?
How could anybody believe that? Maybe he accidently pulled the trigger.
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Two words: governmental immunity
Comments
It is my belief that Jim does represent the opinion of the majority of LEOs, which was the purpose of the thread. There are obviously all shades of grey, but of the LEOs I have known, it was my impression that one of the prime motivators for choosing the profession was the power trip.
That mentality, coupled with the expectation that all 'good' people will submit, makes for a dangerous dynamic in a supposedly free society. As we move towards more and more governmental control and intrusion in our day-to-day lives, the expectation of submission is ever more prevalent. We are forced to submit to random stops at checkpoints along heavily travelled highways 'for the public good', and are told that if we have nothing to hide we should have not a problem with being stopped.
Bullsnot! Freedom cannot co-exist with a submissive populace. This assumed legal superiority tears at the fabric of our liberties and our very humanity.
That said, it serves a much greater good to fully understand the attitude so as to better understand the problem.
Brad Steele
Jeff:
It is my belief that Jim does represent the opinion of the majority of LEOs, which was the purpose of the thread. There are obviously all shades of grey, but of the LEOs I have known, it was my impression that one of the prime motivators for choosing the profession was the power trip.
That mentality, coupled with the expectation that all 'good' people will submit, makes for a dangerous dynamic in a supposedly free society. As we move towards more and more governmental control and intrusion in our day-to-day lives, the expectation of submission is ever more prevalent. We are forced to submit to random stops at checkpoints along heavily travelled highways 'for the public good', and are told that if we have nothing to hide we should have not a problem with being stopped.
Bullsnot! Freedom cannot co-exist with a submissive populace. This assumed legal superiority tears at the fabric of our liberties and our very humanity.
That said, it serves a much greater good to fully understand the attitude so as to better understand the problem.
Don,
Often, you and I say things in different ways, but in the end, we wind up trying to say the same thing. This is such the case.
Cheers,
Jeff
Sells, I never said anyone should not defend their self, home, or family. I nearly lost my job because I was so out spoken on the behalf of the second amendment and individuals right to be armed and use the arms for selfdefence (see below). I never said LEO's do not make mistakes when it comes to NK warrants. I did try to explan what goes into our attempts to avoid this type of situation. I did try to advise you and other how to handle a VERY bad situation, even though it is all but impossible you will ever find yourselves in this situation. You are correct when you said I labled you as a 'crack pot', becasue you are. You showed your closeminded ingnorace by distorting what I say to fit your prejudicial attitude.
I have gotten into hot water many times during my career because I refuse to violate peoples rights. I grew up on the 'wrong side of the tracks' and had no love for the cops. You simply don't like cops and it shows. If you maintain this attitue and have a contact with the law you will most certinly find your self between a rock and hard place. But life is all about decissions, you make yours, I will make mine.
Well I guess this a case of selective hearing on your part.
Sells, I never said anyone should not defend their self, home, or family. I nearly lost my job because I was so out spoken on the behalf of the second amendment and individuals right to be armed and use the arms for selfdefence (see below). I never said LEO's do not make mistakes when it comes to NK warrants. I did try to explan what goes into our attempts to avoid this type of situation. I did try to advise you and other how to handle a VERY bad situation, even though it is all but impossible you will ever find yourselves in this situation. You are correct when you said I labled you as a 'crack pot', becasue you are. You showed your closeminded ingnorace by distorting what I say to fit your prejudicial attitude.
I have gotten into hot water many times during my career because I refuse to violate peoples rights. I grew up on the 'wrong side of the tracks' and had no love for the cops. You simply don't like cops and it shows. If you maintain this attitue and have a contact with the law you will most certinly find your self between a rock and hard place. But life is all about decissions, you make yours, I will make mine.
Yeah, okay, whatever. FWIW, I have contact with LEOs all the time. In fact, my next door neighbor is a LEO. Again, you speak of what you do not know and you do not know ANYTHING about me, what I do for a living, and what I have done for a living. I've had more contact with LEOs than you'll ever know... I've spent 15 years interacting with LEOs on a day-to-day basis. I can deal with them just fine, and I have never, ever found myself between a rock and a hard place dealing with LEOs. But, then again, you know everything, don't you?
I don't dislike LEOs, I do dislike the superiority complex that many of them have, just as you demonstrate quite thoroughly in your posts.
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
If and when there is a general siezure of firearms accross the country. I truly believe that you will need many like minded freinds to fight against this tyranny. You alone in the AM will easily be taken. I dont care what kind of Arsenal you have. I have served many a search warrant where the bad guys had many guns and folded for lack of courage at the last moment. Saying you are a hero on the WEB is much different than sitting alone while ATF and Blackwater are waiting you out, looking for the sweet shot. All the while Action 7 News is portraying you as some psychotic loner with a masssive Arsenal of weapons and is mentally unbalanced.
quote:Originally posted by Blairweescot
but isn't the "you disgust me pig" routine the same attitude as the woman you're talking about, who makes assumptions?
The difference is I'm not given a carte blanche to shoot anyone and enforce my will on the populace.
I also don't make statements like Jim did like "I am better than you"(paraphrasing). Nor do I presume that I shouldn't be held accountable or confronted when I am in the wrong.
If LEOs invade the wrong house, they act outside the law, and deserve to be shot. PERIOD.
The point about the constitution allowing for warrants ignores the practice if serving warrants at the time - none of this no knock entry BS.
Show up, knock on the door, wait a reasonable time, if they come hand them the paper, wait a reasonable time for them to read it and enter.
If you have to, park way doen the street, have your swat team hiding, ready to make an entry, and send only 1 officer to the door to not raise too much suspicion - do not enter if the person is home without making a reasonable attempt to present the warrant.
Without presenting the warrant, the person has no reasonable way of discerning a lawful entry, and is justified in shooting whoever comes in.
If I were on a jury, and the defendant shot police coming in the house (and somehow lived through it - perhaps killing the first 1 orgroup, realizing they were cops, and surrendering splayed on the ground before the 2nd group came), and the police raided the right house in a no-knock warrant, I still would not convict.
The police initiated a raid with lethal force intending to cause confusion, they are the instigator, they hold the responsibility.
Why can't they wait until the person leaves, raid the house, and be waiting outside to present the warrant when the person comes back?
That's all irrelevant
You say that you feel it's wrong somebody makes snap assumptions about people, then you do the same thing by generalizing with a statement based on what you assume
Nothing about this "but I don't have carte blanche" stuff has any bearing
I will always believe some of the finest men on earth post here at GB.
I don't think you have said anything I have not. But some folks are so set in their prejudices they don't respond well to those they are attacking when the explaination is not what they want to hear.[;)]
I like your attitude and idea, BUT the catch 22 here is when you invite 'us' you will have ruined your 'perfect' world/island!![;)]
If I ever win the lottery I'm gonna buy an island and invite all who understand and appreciate freedom, common sense, and individual responsibility to come live in a tropical paradise with me.
I will always believe some of the finest men on earth post here at GB.
If you change that from an island to a forested mountain range in the Rockies, I'll give it some serious thought.[;)]
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
What experience do I have to qualify me to pass judgment?
LIFE.
I've found myself face-down in the middle of the street, mistaken for someone else, with over a dozen guns pointed at me. I complied fully with the orders of the LEOs there. I was forced to lay on the asphalt, face down, hands behind my head, outside temperature well over 100 degrees. When they found out that I was not the person that they were looking for, did I even get an apology? No, I got attitude.
This was July 4th two years ago, you can search these forums and find the posting about it yourself. The LEOs were after my friend who was suicidal - we were there to try and calm him down.
When they did arrest my friend, they confiscated the guns in his house. I spoke on behalf of my friend's wife and asked for the LEOs to give her a receipt for the confiscated guns. Did they produce a receipt? No, but they did produce attitude and fought me tooth and nail about why a police case number was "good enough" for her. After demanding to be put in touch with their superiors, they finally wrote up a receipt.
I've dealt with LEOs day-in-day-out for 15 years in my previous profession. I've dealt with everyone from the investigating officers at a crime scene to the records officers to get copies of police reports. I've done this in literally hundreds of jurisdictions. Joe Citizen is treated to attitude by LEOs more often than not.
And, FWIW, I do not provide LEOs with a reason to start off with attitude. I approach them professionally and only push back when pushed.
My neighbor is a friendly guy. But, the superiority complex he has just oozes from him, as do most LEOs that I speak with. We chat quite frequently but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'd ever tell him I'm a gun owner - from the conversations we have I've heard more times than I care to admit about how only trained LEOs should have guns.
Again, I don't paint all LEOs with the broad brush. I've talked to some decent people both ITRW and online who are LEOs. Those that do not suffer from a superiority complex are in the extreme minority.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
What experience do I have to qualify me to pass judgment?
LIFE.
I've found myself face-down in the middle of the street, mistaken for someone else, with over a dozen guns pointed at me. I complied fully with the orders of the LEOs there. I was forced to lay on the asphalt, face down, hands behind my head, outside temperature well over 100 degrees. When they found out that I was not the person that they were looking for, did I even get an apology? No, I got attitude.
This was July 4th two years ago, you can search these forums and find the posting about it yourself. The LEOs were after my friend who was suicidal - we were there to try and calm him down.
When they did arrest my friend, they confiscated the guns in his house. I spoke on behalf of my friend's wife and asked for the LEOs to give her a receipt for the confiscated guns. Did they produce a receipt? No, but they did produce attitude and fought me tooth and nail about why a police case number was "good enough" for her. After demanding to be put in touch with their superiors, they finally wrote up a receipt.
I've dealt with LEOs day-in-day-out for 15 years in my previous profession. I've dealt with everyone from the investigating officers at a crime scene to the records officers to get copies of police reports. I've done this in literally hundreds of jurisdictions. Joe Citizen is treated to attitude by LEOs more often than not.
And, FWIW, I do not provide LEOs with a reason to start off with attitude. I approach them professionally and only push back when pushed.
My neighbor is a friendly guy. But, the superiority complex he has just oozes from him, as do most LEOs that I speak with. We chat quite frequently but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'd ever tell him I'm a gun owner - from the conversations we have I've heard more times than I care to admit about how only trained LEOs should have guns.
Again, I don't paint all LEOs with the broad brush. I've talked to some decent people both ITRW and online who are LEOs. Those that do not suffer from a superiority complex are in the extreme minority.
Invite him over, show him your m82a1 and tell him how you don't much care for JBT's, explain to him how his ceramic plate will shatter, explain how kevlar fibers will expand at such a rapid rate some fibers will push from his nose to his toes. Tell him you were playing with firearms since before you were playing with your gun, explain that when shtf he will need your help and not vice versa.
Then tell him you think his wife is real pretty with those shorts on.
quote:Originally posted by spanielsells
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Sells,
Once agin you are wrong. I spent my entire 26 years in uniform on the street and I did very well because I did not mistreat or talk down to people. I think you are the one trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you displayed even a fraction of this 'holier than though' negative attitude around others, expecialy cops, you would have a problem.
I have ask you what experance you have which would qualify you to pass judgment on me as an indidual or the LE professsion in general and you refuse to answer. So the conclusion I am forced to come to is you have someting aginst cops. And as many on the net, one who 'talks the talk, but can't walk the walk'.
If I am wrong enlighten me!!!
What experience do I have to qualify me to pass judgment?
LIFE.
I've found myself face-down in the middle of the street, mistaken for someone else, with over a dozen guns pointed at me. I complied fully with the orders of the LEOs there. I was forced to lay on the asphalt, face down, hands behind my head, outside temperature well over 100 degrees. When they found out that I was not the person that they were looking for, did I even get an apology? No, I got attitude.
This was July 4th two years ago, you can search these forums and find the posting about it yourself. The LEOs were after my friend who was suicidal - we were there to try and calm him down.
When they did arrest my friend, they confiscated the guns in his house. I spoke on behalf of my friend's wife and asked for the LEOs to give her a receipt for the confiscated guns. Did they produce a receipt? No, but they did produce attitude and fought me tooth and nail about why a police case number was "good enough" for her. After demanding to be put in touch with their superiors, they finally wrote up a receipt.
I've dealt with LEOs day-in-day-out for 15 years in my previous profession. I've dealt with everyone from the investigating officers at a crime scene to the records officers to get copies of police reports. I've done this in literally hundreds of jurisdictions. Joe Citizen is treated to attitude by LEOs more often than not.
And, FWIW, I do not provide LEOs with a reason to start off with attitude. I approach them professionally and only push back when pushed.
My neighbor is a friendly guy. But, the superiority complex he has just oozes from him, as do most LEOs that I speak with. We chat quite frequently but I'll be a monkey's uncle if I'd ever tell him I'm a gun owner - from the conversations we have I've heard more times than I care to admit about how only trained LEOs should have guns.
Again, I don't paint all LEOs with the broad brush. I've talked to some decent people both ITRW and online who are LEOs. Those that do not suffer from a superiority complex are in the extreme minority.
Invite him over, show him your m82a1 and tell him how you don't much care for JBT's, explain to him how his ceramic plate will shatter, explain how kevlar fibers will expand at such a rapid rate some fibers will push from his nose to his toes. Tell him you were playing with firearms since before you were playing with your gun, explain that when shtf he will need your help and not vice versa.
Then tell him you think his wife is real pretty with those shorts on.
LOL. If you're referring to my neighbor, his wife left him a year ago. She was very nice, and cute.
I am sorry you have this attitude. My #2 son has the same attitude becasue he was roughed up by some SO's as a teen. He does have a 'mouth' and an attitude which aggervated the situation. I see the same in you. But as I have told him two wrong do not make a right. Weather you like it or not we ,as cop's, MUST take charge we don't have a program to tell us the good guys from the bad. So until things are deesclated and the parties are ID'd we have to take charge. I am sorry if you feel you must resist this, and I am sorry those who handled your situation did not apoligize. I have 'unarrested' many people and appoliged and explained my actions to them. Most atleast said they understood and many thanked me.
Cops are people. And people can be a**holes, in a uniform, or not
Had good and bad experiences with cops. Gotten a lot of attitude over nothing. I've had them tell me to do dangerous things because of their ignorance. I've also had cops say to me "Great shooting" and been honestly pleased I did well. Had one authorize a burnout for me at a gas station once, too. When the cop says "light em up" to me, the only answer is 'sir yes sir'
You're gonna get a person inside the uniform, and some of the persons are jerks. You'd never notice a cop who was polite and nice and did a good job nine times out of nine times unless you talked to him or her. Get a bad one and you can remember it forever and see it a mile away
Wrong agin. Those who do have a superiory complex are in the minority. Many new (rookie) cops get this attitude but most out grow it within the first 3 to 5 years. I was correct in my assumtion that you had some bad contacts with police and it left you with a some what justifiable negative attitude. Of all the cops I knew there were less than 10 who were antigun (beleived only cops and military should be armed). And I knew about the same number who were arragont AH's. Most of them were x-army officers!?!?
I am sorry you have this attitude. My #2 son has the same attitude becasue he was roughed up by some SO's as a teen. He does have a 'mouth' and an attitude which aggervated the situation. I see the same in you. But as I have told him two wrong do not make a right. Weather you like it or not we ,as cop's, MUST take charge we don't have a program to tell us the good guys from the bad. So until things are deesclated and the parties are ID'd we have to take charge. I am sorry if you feel you must resist this, and I am sorry those who handled your situation did not apoligize. I have 'unarrested' many people and appoliged and explained my actions to them. Most atleast said they understood and many thanked me.
I don't have a "mouth." As I have stated already, I am very respectful to LEOs when I am dealing with them face-to-face. The only time I push back is after I've been pushed. If you classify that as having a "mouth" then you've got a strange sense of the term. But, someone with a superiority complex who expects respect and submission from everyone else thinks that way.
I have no problem with the LEOs asking me to face down on the street when they thought I was the person they were after. I do have a problem when I'm burning my face, arms and legs on probably 160-degree asphalt and nobody bothers to apologize. I understand they have a job to do. Once I am cleared, as I was, the proper and decent thing to do was to apologize. Those with superiority complexes see no need for apologies. Out of probably the 20+ officers that were at the scene, nobody apologized. That's 20+ officers with superiority complexes.
I have no problem with the LEOs confiscating the guns until things could be sorted out. I do have a problem with LEOs telling me (or anyone else) that providing a receipt after confiscating several hundred dollars worth of private property is unnecessary. LEOs are not immune to temptation and theft of items that never make it to the property room does happen. If you don't believe that, there are enough people on this very forum that can attest otherwise. Why should it take a threat to go over an officer's head to get something as simple as a receipt? For the 20 minutes we were arguing about it, he could have written a thousand receipts. But, due to his superiority complex, it was more important to be right than to do the right thing.
That's all irrelevant
You say that you feel it's wrong somebody makes snap assumptions about people, then you do the same thing by generalizing with a statement based on what you assume
I never said any such thing. But on the subject there is huge difference between a prejudice citizen, and a prejudice person with "legal" authority over another person.
If you are going to accuse me of being a hypocrite, I might as well just throw it out there that you are a liar.
Jim Rau: I don't think that invitation extends to you.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
we would be not better than you, and then we could not do the job we are sworn to do.
Pig. "We're better than you" ?!?! WTH, you do nothing to improve the image of cops.
I don't go around mouthing off to cops, I've been pulled over for extremely minor traffic violations multiple times, and never gotten a ticket. I am not rude to cops in person, and I respect the force they can bring (not the person). On a one on one basis, I don't transfer my dislike of cops collectively to them.
But your statements have proven you are the type of cop I hate (there are some good ones, and I have met some).
I would always convict the raider, and never the raidee if I were on a jury.
But I don't advocate shooting at cops if they break in (and you realize they are cops in time). I know how to choose my battles, and when its worth fighting, and when its not worth fighting.
Even our founders realized this:
quote: Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
However, were the government to get bad enough here that the law was to be challenged, your attitude would make you a lot of mortal enemies.
Of course, we aren't anywhere near open nationwide civil war as far as I can tell (but who knows, Obama could get elected, some racist could off him, then rioting in the streets nationwide that would make the LA race riots seem like a picnic, followed by declaration of martial law... etc). Nonetheless, your attitude won't make you many friends
You condemn a person for making snap judgements:
any person with one beer in them is a violent drunk
That is what you disagree with, yes?
Or was it not you that said this?
Then you post "you disgust me pig" based on the merest of information...these are not similar attitudes?
If you want people to be open minded and not make judgments like that, you could ask if you can be open minded yourself. It can be hard to do. Hey, I gotta go, have a good night...easy on the "liar" business. That stuff can come back at you
An LEO posts here, and you nameless, shameless jizzmonkeys jump on him.
A LEO may face, at any time, day or night, a genuine armed bad guy. He does this for YOU, YOUR family, YOUR children.
And he does it for small money.
And you whinning ninnys complain?
Pack your bags, spanielsells. Go see how kindly the IDF will treat you in your homeland.
A LEO may face, at any time, day or night, a genuine armed bad guy. He does this for YOU, YOUR family, YOUR children.
You assume alot numb nuts. Every police officer that I know including family memebers couldn't care less if someone fell over dead tommorrow. I know they do the job for much different reasons. I'm not saying all do, but I'll bet there are a good portion that do.
What a bunch of mealy-mouth wannabee turds.
An LEO posts here, and you nameless, shameless jizzmonkeys jump on him.
A LEO may face, at any time, day or night, a genuine armed bad guy. He does this for YOU, YOUR family, YOUR children.
And he does it for small money.
And you whinning ninnys complain?
Pack your bags, spanielsells. Go see how kindly the IDF will treat you in your homeland.
Look tripletap. DROP THE ISRAELI CRAP ALREADY. I'm Jewish - how and why you seem fascinated over the notion that my being Jewish means that I worship Israel is explained only by the white sheet you hide behind.
Now, for the real part of the conversation.
LEOs don't do their job to protect you, your family, or your loved ones (you know, your buddies in the white sheets). LEOs do not protect as it is not a LEO's job to protect (I don't care what the side of the police car says). The job of a LEO, as anyone with any intelligence knows, is to respond to and investigate a crime scene, traffic accident, etc.
223, I do care about people, but I do not loose sleep when I have to use force to do the job. I do not make the decission to use force, the person I am dealing with does. When ever possible, I would give them the choice to act like civilized person or to act like an animal.
I am taking flak because I said I was 'better' than some. Well let me tell you to be a 'good' cop you MUST be a cut above the rest. Physicaly, mentaly, emotionaly, and have above average personal integrity. Just a fact. Why do you think the police departments all over this country are having a very hard time finding QUALIFIED applicants????[?]
So plumber, does the sucks dude speak for you now???[;)]
223, I do care about people, but I do not loose sleep when I have to use force to do the job. I do not make the decission to use force, the person I am dealing with does. When ever possible, I would give them the choice to act like civilized person or to act like an animal.
I am taking flak because I said I was 'better' than some. Well let me tell you to be a 'good' cop you MUST be a cut above the rest. Physicaly, mentaly, emotionaly, and have above average personal integrity. Just a fact. Why do you think the police departments all over this country are having a very hard time finding QUALIFIED applicants????[?]
And, instead of finding QUALIFIED candidates, they simply LOWER THE QUALIFICATIONS, which gives us the LEOs we have to deal with.
Now, we're starting to get somewhere in this conversation.
But you are saying it:
You condemn a person for making snap judgements:
any person with one beer in them is a violent drunk
That is what you disagree with, yes?
Or was it not you that said this?
Then you post "you disgust me pig" based on the merest of information...these are not similar attitudes?
If you want people to be open minded and not make judgments like that, you could ask if you can be open minded yourself. It can be hard to do. Hey, I gotta go, have a good night...easy on the "liar" business. That stuff can come back at you
I condemn Jim Rau based on his arrogant above the law attitude.
I also offer an example of a person I know who became a police officer (my "you disgust me pig" was not aimed at her) for all the wrong reasons (take out her angst against her dad on the general populace - people with inferiority complexes don't belong in law enforcement - she was a friend, but I think becoming a cop with her attitude is a bad idea)
I will also condemn certain attitudes only in tandem with "law enforcement" if you cannot get the distinction between what is acceptable behavior, and what is acceptable behavior while in a position of authority, then I can see this is pointless.
Can't you read, or is it you just don't care about the reality of this.[xx(]
Your probability of being struck by lightning is far greater than the probability of you being 'raided' by accident!!!
This is living proof, Common sense is dead in this world.[;)]
If you want to get upset about something, pick something which has some PROBALITY of causing you harm!![:p]
I agree with you that the police get the right house 99% of the time. I also agree that being a cop is a lousy job and they don't get paid nearly enough.
All that said, I do really worry about how militarized the police are becoming, and how many police departments are using officer safety as an excuse for just about any action.
For example, I live in a very safe, quiet community. There's the rare murder, a rape here and there, some drugs, but my county--roughly 3 times the size of Pittsburgh--has nowhere near the problems. The police have decided to use the SWAT team a great deal. A while back, they used SWAT to arrest a guy accused of running a sports book. No ties to organized crime, no prior record, never been arrested--the guy was an optometrist, for Pete's sake. The guy pulls up to him home after getting off of work, a SWAT officer jumps out of his van and shoots the guy dead center in the chest. No "stop police" or anything in the guy's hand, just shoots the guy dead center in the chest. The guy dies.
Of course the SWAT officer said the pistol malfunctioned and accidentally discharged, but why was a SWAT officer pointing his pistol at the chest of this man? Why was his weapon even drawn? Why was a SWAT officer even present?
The guy was an optometrist, for Pete's sake. The guy pulls up to him home after getting off of work, a SWAT officer jumps out of his van and shoots the guy dead center in the chest. No "stop police" or anything in the guy's hand, just shoots the guy dead center in the chest. The guy dies.
Of course the SWAT officer said the pistol malfunctioned and accidentally discharged, but why was a SWAT officer pointing his pistol at the chest of this man? Why was his weapon even drawn? Why was a SWAT officer even present?
Were I on a jury, I'd convict him so fast, but what would you bet that the DA pressed no charges (oops, bet, am I gonna get shot now for gambling?)
There was a time when an incident like that would spark a local revolt to rectify the problem when the government refuses to bring the murderer to justice.
I could not agree with you more. This is one of my complaints about the 'new' breed of cops.
And sucks, I do not have an 'above the law' attitude. I have no idea where you got that from. The 'law' applies to me the same as everyone else. I do know I am a cut above the rest of the folks. I use to think of myself as 'average' until I went to retire and I looked back at my life and service. I had nemorus people from all over commend me on good job and good attitude I had. When we started our PT program I was the only one out of 350+ officers to get a 100% on it and I continued to be in the top 95+% until I retired. I have had judges and attorneys, on both sides, tell me they considered me one of the most honest and caring people they had been associated with and wished there more like me. I had many of the counclers in the YVS commend me and even ask if I would consider working with them when I retired. I had many doctors and nurses say the same. And littery every officer, even those I did not always get along with, say if the chit hit the fan I was the one they want there. So yes, I have come to realize I am a cut above the rest.
But the best comliments I have received is from many people I have handled over the years who let me know they appreciated the way I delt with them and many said they thought about what I said and changed their lives. Unless or until you have experanced the ups and downs of LE you can't come close to knowing how I feel or where I am comming from.
mlincoln,
I could not agree with you more. This is one of my complaints about the 'new' breed of cops.
And sucks, I do not have an 'above the law' attitude. I have no idea where you got that from. The 'law' applies to me the same as everyone else. I do know I am a cut above the rest of the folks. I use to think of myself as 'average' until I went to retire and I looked back at my life and service. I had nemorus people from all over commend me on good job and good attitude I had. When we started our PT program I was the only one out of 350+ officers to get a 100% on it and I continued to be in the top 95+% until I retired. I have had judges and attorneys, on both sides, tell me they considered me one of the most honest and caring people they had been associated with and wished there more like me. I had many of the counclers in the YVS commend me and even ask if I would consider working with them when I retired. I had many doctors and nurses say the same. And littery every officer, even those I did not always get along with, say if the chit hit the fan I was the one they want there. So yes, I have come to realize I am a cut above the rest.
But the best comliments I have received is from many people I have handled over the years who let me know they appreciated the way I delt with them and many said they thought about what I said and changed their lives. Unless or until you have experanced the ups and downs of LE you can't come close to knowing how I feel or where I am comming from.
Your hand ever get tired from all the patting yourself on the back?
You sure brag about yourself alot. Says alot about your character.
mlincoln,
I could not agree with you more. This is one of my complaints about the 'new' breed of cops.
And sucks, I do not have an 'above the law' attitude. I have no idea where you got that from. The 'law' applies to me the same as everyone else. I do know I am a cut above the rest of the folks. I use to think of myself as 'average' until I went to retire and I looked back at my life and service. I had nemorus people from all over commend me on good job and good attitude I had. When we started our PT program I was the only one out of 350+ officers to get a 100% on it and I continued to be in the top 95+% until I retired. I have had judges and attorneys, on both sides, tell me they considered me one of the most honest and caring people they had been associated with and wished there more like me. I had many of the counclers in the YVS commend me and even ask if I would consider working with them when I retired. I had many doctors and nurses say the same. And littery every officer, even those I did not always get along with, say if the chit hit the fan I was the one they want there. So yes, I have come to realize I am a cut above the rest.
But the best comliments I have received is from many people I have handled over the years who let me know they appreciated the way I delt with them and many said they thought about what I said and changed their lives. Unless or until you have experanced the ups and downs of LE you can't come close to knowing how I feel or where I am comming from.
Well sir, I've experienced the "ups and downs" of police work and I don't feel anything like what you have posted, nor do I subscribe to much of what you've stated.
I'll state that I've had a far more varied career than what you've described for yourself.
Bottom line, I am a citizen first, then a Peace Officer.
I am no better than any other freedom loving, honest citizen, regardless of the authority bestowed on me by the virtue of my job.
I take that authority, which is loaned to me, very seriously and attempt every day to be wise and judicious in its use. My oath to support and defend the US Constitution and the Constitution of my State come above any "malum prohibitum" law on the books, period.
Being a cop is not my life, it is a job and one I take great pride in and in which I make every effort to be worthy of the public trust and strive to not be that which I abhor in government.
One, a man worthy of all the respect reserved for honorable, decent men, doing a nasty job with care, attention to the Founding documents, and respect for their fellow man.
And the other one.
Every time I read the threads concerning.."Would you stop to help a police officer"...I wonder.
Is it a decent Peace Officer, being assualted by a vicious thug...or just another arrogant thug with a badge...getting his comeuppence from an outraged citizen fed up with being pushed around by one of his BETTERS......???
Well sir, I've experienced the "ups and downs" of police work and I don't feel anything like what you have posted, nor do I subscribe to much of what you've stated.
I'll state that I've had a far more varied career than what you've described for yourself.
Bottom line, I am a citizen first, then a Peace Officer.
I am no better than any other freedom loving, honest citizen, regardless of the authority bestowed on me by the virtue of my job.
I take that authority, which is loaned to me, very seriously and attempt every day to be wise and judicious in its use. My oath to support and defend the US Constitution and the Constitution of my State come above any "malum prohibitum" law on the books, period.
Being a cop is not my life, it is a job and one I take great pride in and in which I make every effort to be worthy of the public trust and strive to not be that which I abhor in government.
Captain, same here. I am beginning to wonder why the need for all the chest thumping. As I said before, Law Enfrocement works for the people, and we are no better than the people we serve. In clarification, yes, we are SUPPOSED to be of higher morales, ethics, and standards, but what I am inferring from the above posts is that he feels that he is worth more, that his life is more valuable. I can and will applaud and respect anyone who lives to higher standards, excels and strives to be the best that he/she can be, hell, I do that, but to imply that you are "better" than the next guy, I feel this to be condescending(sp?). And do it because it's right, not for internet glory.
Mr. Rau, I see that while we might agree on alot of things and have very similiar opinions and feelings, as we are both in L.E, we do differ ALOT.
Boy, has this gotten hijacked and off topic!
I agree with you that the police get the right house 99% of the time. I also agree that being a cop is a lousy job and they don't get paid nearly enough.
All that said, I do really worry about how militarized the police are becoming, and how many police departments are using officer safety as an excuse for just about any action.
For example, I live in a very safe, quiet community. There's the rare murder, a rape here and there, some drugs, but my county--roughly 3 times the size of Pittsburgh--has nowhere near the problems. The police have decided to use the SWAT team a great deal. A while back, they used SWAT to arrest a guy accused of running a sports book. No ties to organized crime, no prior record, never been arrested--the guy was an optometrist, for Pete's sake. The guy pulls up to him home after getting off of work, a SWAT officer jumps out of his van and shoots the guy dead center in the chest. No "stop police" or anything in the guy's hand, just shoots the guy dead center in the chest. The guy dies.
Of course the SWAT officer said the pistol malfunctioned and accidentally discharged, but why was a SWAT officer pointing his pistol at the chest of this man? Why was his weapon even drawn? Why was a SWAT officer even present?
How could anybody believe that? Maybe he accidently pulled the trigger.
Then there are others..........[xx(]
There are some officers posting on this thread, that I would be HONORED to buy them a dinner.
Then there are others..........[xx(]
I prefer my steak medium rare, baked potato with sour cream, cheddar cheese and fresh garden salad![:D] Kinda presumptuous ain't I?[;)]
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Getting back to Don's original post........
If you feel that you have to do battle with the police if they raid your house, go ahead, but expect to die in the process.
If you absolutely feel you need to excercise what you perceive is you right to kill a cop who "invades" your home, well no court is going to agree with you if your lucky enough to survive.
If they have the right house, then you deserve to be invaded. If they have the wrong house, why not go along with the program, then sue the hell out of the entity that employes them. That way you can remain alive and enjoy the rewards of a big court settlement.
Two words: governmental immunity