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Believe me, I would have reservations regardless of the situation. I honestly do not know if I am capable of shooting another human being, and hopefully will never have to have that question answered. As our culture degrades and violence becomes more prevalent, I fear more and more people will be forced to make this distasteful decision. I guess I would prefer a law enforcement system where a law abiding citizen would never have to weigh whether an aggressive attack is from the good guys or the bad guys.
It sure as hell would make the decision easier.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.
Well I too hope you and others do not have to make that call, BUT if you do DO NOT HESATATE. There is no second place in these situations, only WINNERS AND LOSSERS![V] This advice is for those who would have second thoughts about using force aginist another human. Most of the time your survival insticts will kick in and you will do what ever it takes to WIN.
Trinity,
I agree. But most states still require POST cert. But in a small town/rual area there is more laid back life style all around, and most people know most others. I realy like where I am living now. I left CO because of the growth, mainly from CA, and you are correct about the larger dept. being more at fault than the small ones for producing the 'new breed'.
I wonder if the old timers said the same thing about us![;)]
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
You are right that our chances of being the victim of a no knock search warrant are pretty slim, but you are exaggerating just the least little bit about how slim they are.
The odds of hitting the Virginia Lottery are 1 in 175,711,536. The population of Virginia is 7,642,884. The Irish sweepstakes is defunct.
If there were an Irish sweepstakes the odds of hitting it and the Lottery at the same time are so long it would never happen. Wrong house no knock search warrants do happen.
The odds of my surviving a no knock search warrant are probably less than any of the lottery scenarios. When somebody, anybody, comes crashing through my door, asleep or awake I'll come up shooting. If I even see the black clothing and a badge that will mean nothing to me. When I find out later I was in the wrong or mistaken, it won't make me smile in my coffin.
There may be a reason on some occasion for a no knock search warrant, but I can't think of what it would be, and it certainly isn't drugs.
If you knock on somebody's door and they flush a couple of joints or a dime bag on their way to the door, you have missed out on a misdemeanor arrest. If there are vast quantities of drugs and/or cash in the house, you can still get in before it all gets flushed.
If somebody knocks on my door and tells me they are police and have a search warrant, I'll check out the warrant, stand aside and let them search my house. If they come through the door with a battering-ram I might not be the only dead man present.
If somebody knocks on my door and tells me they are police and have a search warrant, I'll check out the warrant, stand aside and let them search my house.
James,
I can tell you from experance not all the dangerous, hardened, career criminals have this same attitude, so there are times when, for everyones safety, a NK warrant is the best way to handle a bad situation.[;)]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Don,
Beleive me I understand what you are saying. Do you recall a couple of things I said earlier?
1. Most criminals will not have the resources to pull off a fake police raid. Those who do will not be doing it for the fun of it. They will target other 'criminals'.
2 We (police) use the element of supprise and 'over whelming force' the key words here are 'over whelming', for a reason . This show of force, even if many of you think as excessive, DOES SAVE LIVES on both sides. I have confronted armed criminals several times and they have some second thoughts about using their 'arms' when they realize it is a no win situation for them.
All I ask, for those of you capable of it, is to look at this with an open mind.
Too late for the open mind. My mind is closed on this subject. Anybody coming into my house by force gets shot at, and probably shot. Even if my name and address are on the warrant.
Criminals ain't no smarter that the police. They could have the wrong house too.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
James,
I can tell you from experance not all the dangerous, hardened, career criminals have this same attitude, so there are times when, for everyones safety, a NK warrant is the best way to handle a bad situation.[;)]
I'm not in the least worried about the dangerous, hardened, career criminal's reaction to a no knock warrant. I'm more concerned with how I react. Maybe it should be more incentive to get the address right. I'm not the only one out here with just the right amount of paranoia/fear/skill mix to be a problem.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
No joke, if you think it's a joke then you, sir, must not be a 'honest, law abiding citizen'!![V]
Just what is it that you protect me from?
You are just proving the point that's made above. If I don't believe you are superior just because you wear a badge, I must be a criminal.
Protect me? Yeah, right.
1. i am a peace officer
2. i own a gun shop
3. i do have common sense
Now for something about all the stories i see about police getting the wrong house or shooting someone unarmed, etc, ALWAYS seem to be where LAW ABIDING CITIZENS DO NOT OWN GUNS!
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who do the 'job' becasue I know I did my best for 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who the job becasue I know I did my best for the 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
You are doing some fine work and I'm proud of you. Now what does any of that have to do with no knock search warrants.
You appear to be a little paranoid. I don't dislike you. Even if you come crashing through my door I wouldn't dislike you, I'd just shoot you. Nothing personal.
When the crash comes, I won't have time to think about what to do, so I've already made the decision based on the odds. When/If it happens, I won't have to spend time thinking, just do it. That's the reason you run drills.
James,
You wouldn't shoot me, I have always been "first with the most" and I don't intend to stop now!!![;)]
How else do you think I have been able to not only survive but prevail all these years!![}:)]
PS: Is that you in the picture on your sig line? If so you are almost as ugly as I am!![:D]
Alright, Jimbo, I can see your definition of "protect" differs from mine. Not saying yours is not correct, just different.
But you didn't have to go and call me a criminal, now did ya? And please stop calling me Sir. It sounds just a little condesending. I feel like I just got pulled over for speeding (not that I ever speed)
Of course it had to be done at 6:00am. That's when the perp is expected to be home!
Sure, anyone breaking in is fair game but remember, there will be several of them, they are going to be wearing body armor, carrying shotguns and M4s at the ready. You are going to be alone, in your PJs probably with some sort of handgun somewhere within reach. Who is going to win?????
quote:Originally posted by glabray
Of course it had to be done at 6:00am. That's when the perp is expected to be home!
Sure, anyone breaking in is fair game but remember, there will be several of them, they are going to be wearing body armor, carrying shotguns and M4s at the ready. You are going to be alone, in your PJs probably with some sort of handgun somewhere within reach. Who is going to win?????
I sleep at night in full flak jacket and gas mask with boots on cuddling my AR-10 with 100 round drums of AP rounds. I'm not nervous a bit. Joke, Joke, Joke. [:o)]
Honestly if someone breaks the sanctity of my home some things are worth dieing over to me personally. I'd be willing to fight and possibly die for my country. Just how far do you think I'd go protecting my home?
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who do the 'job' becasue I know I did my best for 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
Now that, I agree with 100%. We may not sit on your front porch with our weapons at the ready, sitting up all night while you sleep, but we do TRY to protect all of us. If your home was broken into or your car or truck stolen, you WOULD feel violated, and you WOULD call the police, asking for help to solve the problem. And when we catch the perps, we have protected you from a second violation, and your neighbors. Jim, you bring up good points, and I don't believe your intent is to be condescending, but your delivery of the message is the problem, not the intent. [;)]
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who do the 'job' becasue I know I did my best for 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
Sorry there, Slick, but you're not "protecting." Again, you're ENFORCING the law. I don't care what propaganda you've bought into, perhaps it is looking at the side of your police car too long, but police do not PROTECT.
If the police PROTECTED, there would be no victims of crimes.
War,
I didn't know the meaning of the word 'tact' when talking to the 'bosses' until I was 40+ and has you can tell there a few people on this site who don't have a clue. I thing I have maintained a fair amount of 'tact' and self control considering the attacks on me personaly and police profession in general.[;)]
Sells,
You are wasteing our time (but it is good entertainment to others) because your prejudices are just to deep rooted. (see above) You will not change your attitude until you get some serious reality theraphy!![:)] Have a nice day, take a few deep breaths, and have a cold one or three. Life is to short to get so fired up over the computer!!![;)]
Footlong,
So true. Been there saw that, done that, and have the scars to prove it![V]
Comments
Believe me, I would have reservations regardless of the situation. I honestly do not know if I am capable of shooting another human being, and hopefully will never have to have that question answered. As our culture degrades and violence becomes more prevalent, I fear more and more people will be forced to make this distasteful decision. I guess I would prefer a law enforcement system where a law abiding citizen would never have to weigh whether an aggressive attack is from the good guys or the bad guys.
It sure as hell would make the decision easier.
Brad Steele
I agree. But most states still require POST cert. But in a small town/rual area there is more laid back life style all around, and most people know most others. I realy like where I am living now. I left CO because of the growth, mainly from CA, and you are correct about the larger dept. being more at fault than the small ones for producing the 'new breed'.
I wonder if the old timers said the same thing about us![;)]
You stand a higher chance of hitting the lottery than being the target of a search warrant.
You stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish sweepstakes than being the target of wrong address search warrant.
And you stand a higher chance of hitting the Irish and lottery at the same time, than being the subject of a no-knock wrong house search warrant.
And most likely it would pay as well, if you survive. If you shoot at police, it is likely you will die. If you don't shoot, knowing it is police, you will survive, and live to see another day.
So your choice, if you know it's police, and you shoot or point guns at police, don't be surprised if they take you out.
You are right that our chances of being the victim of a no knock search warrant are pretty slim, but you are exaggerating just the least little bit about how slim they are.
The odds of hitting the Virginia Lottery are 1 in 175,711,536. The population of Virginia is 7,642,884. The Irish sweepstakes is defunct.
If there were an Irish sweepstakes the odds of hitting it and the Lottery at the same time are so long it would never happen. Wrong house no knock search warrants do happen.
The odds of my surviving a no knock search warrant are probably less than any of the lottery scenarios. When somebody, anybody, comes crashing through my door, asleep or awake I'll come up shooting. If I even see the black clothing and a badge that will mean nothing to me. When I find out later I was in the wrong or mistaken, it won't make me smile in my coffin.
There may be a reason on some occasion for a no knock search warrant, but I can't think of what it would be, and it certainly isn't drugs.
If you knock on somebody's door and they flush a couple of joints or a dime bag on their way to the door, you have missed out on a misdemeanor arrest. If there are vast quantities of drugs and/or cash in the house, you can still get in before it all gets flushed.
If somebody knocks on my door and tells me they are police and have a search warrant, I'll check out the warrant, stand aside and let them search my house. If they come through the door with a battering-ram I might not be the only dead man present.
If somebody knocks on my door and tells me they are police and have a search warrant, I'll check out the warrant, stand aside and let them search my house.
James,
I can tell you from experance not all the dangerous, hardened, career criminals have this same attitude, so there are times when, for everyones safety, a NK warrant is the best way to handle a bad situation.[;)]
Don,
Beleive me I understand what you are saying. Do you recall a couple of things I said earlier?
1. Most criminals will not have the resources to pull off a fake police raid. Those who do will not be doing it for the fun of it. They will target other 'criminals'.
2 We (police) use the element of supprise and 'over whelming force' the key words here are 'over whelming', for a reason . This show of force, even if many of you think as excessive, DOES SAVE LIVES on both sides. I have confronted armed criminals several times and they have some second thoughts about using their 'arms' when they realize it is a no win situation for them.
All I ask, for those of you capable of it, is to look at this with an open mind.
Too late for the open mind. My mind is closed on this subject. Anybody coming into my house by force gets shot at, and probably shot. Even if my name and address are on the warrant.
Criminals ain't no smarter that the police. They could have the wrong house too.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
James,
I can tell you from experance not all the dangerous, hardened, career criminals have this same attitude, so there are times when, for everyones safety, a NK warrant is the best way to handle a bad situation.[;)]
I'm not in the least worried about the dangerous, hardened, career criminal's reaction to a no knock warrant. I'm more concerned with how I react. Maybe it should be more incentive to get the address right. I'm not the only one out here with just the right amount of paranoia/fear/skill mix to be a problem.
No joke, if you think it's a joke then you, sir, must not be a 'honest, law abiding citizen'!![V]
Just what is it that you protect me from?
You are just proving the point that's made above. If I don't believe you are superior just because you wear a badge, I must be a criminal.
Protect me? Yeah, right.
1. i am a peace officer
2. i own a gun shop
3. i do have common sense
Now for something about all the stories i see about police getting the wrong house or shooting someone unarmed, etc, ALWAYS seem to be where LAW ABIDING CITIZENS DO NOT OWN GUNS!
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who do the 'job' becasue I know I did my best for 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who the job becasue I know I did my best for the 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
You are doing some fine work and I'm proud of you. Now what does any of that have to do with no knock search warrants.
You appear to be a little paranoid. I don't dislike you. Even if you come crashing through my door I wouldn't dislike you, I'd just shoot you. Nothing personal.
When the crash comes, I won't have time to think about what to do, so I've already made the decision based on the odds. When/If it happens, I won't have to spend time thinking, just do it. That's the reason you run drills.
You wouldn't shoot me, I have always been "first with the most" and I don't intend to stop now!!![;)]
How else do you think I have been able to not only survive but prevail all these years!![}:)]
PS: Is that you in the picture on your sig line? If so you are almost as ugly as I am!![:D]
But you didn't have to go and call me a criminal, now did ya? And please stop calling me Sir. It sounds just a little condesending. I feel like I just got pulled over for speeding (not that I ever speed)
Sure, anyone breaking in is fair game but remember, there will be several of them, they are going to be wearing body armor, carrying shotguns and M4s at the ready. You are going to be alone, in your PJs probably with some sort of handgun somewhere within reach. Who is going to win?????
Of course it had to be done at 6:00am. That's when the perp is expected to be home!
Sure, anyone breaking in is fair game but remember, there will be several of them, they are going to be wearing body armor, carrying shotguns and M4s at the ready. You are going to be alone, in your PJs probably with some sort of handgun somewhere within reach. Who is going to win?????
I sleep at night in full flak jacket and gas mask with boots on cuddling my AR-10 with 100 round drums of AP rounds. I'm not nervous a bit. Joke, Joke, Joke. [:o)]
Honestly if someone breaks the sanctity of my home some things are worth dieing over to me personally. I'd be willing to fight and possibly die for my country. Just how far do you think I'd go protecting my home?
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who do the 'job' becasue I know I did my best for 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
Now that, I agree with 100%. We may not sit on your front porch with our weapons at the ready, sitting up all night while you sleep, but we do TRY to protect all of us. If your home was broken into or your car or truck stolen, you WOULD feel violated, and you WOULD call the police, asking for help to solve the problem. And when we catch the perps, we have protected you from a second violation, and your neighbors. Jim, you bring up good points, and I don't believe your intent is to be condescending, but your delivery of the message is the problem, not the intent. [;)]
Yes protecting 'you'. So you don't think it protects 'you' when I catch a DUI before he is involved in an accident with 'you' or your loved ones? Or when I stop the shoplifter and arrest him? What he steal is overhead to the storekeeper and he passes that cost on to 'you'. When the bangers do a driveby shooting and/or random act of initiation violence and I arrest them it is to protect 'you' not me. When the AH is in the process of using fraud to ripoff the elderly and intervine and cuff and stuff him you think I am doing it to protect me? When I get on scene of an accident and I am litterly up to my elbows in blood giving first aid those injured I am not doing that for 'you'? When someone didn't live after the accident and I have to go to their family and give them the death message is not helping 'you'? Would you like to do it? When we find a place where some escapies are held up and waiting to victimize more of 'you' and we have kick the door and enter ready to deal with the decissions of those in side we are doing this for 'you'? [V]
Well there are alot of ungreatfull AH's out there, some on this sight, but for everyone of them there are hundreds if not thousands of people who are greatful for our service, and that sir makes the stress, pain, and injury worth it.
So I realy don't give a rats * if you paronoid idiots don't like me or those of us who do the 'job' becasue I know I did my best for 'you' even if you don't like me or appreciate it.
Sorry there, Slick, but you're not "protecting." Again, you're ENFORCING the law. I don't care what propaganda you've bought into, perhaps it is looking at the side of your police car too long, but police do not PROTECT.
If the police PROTECTED, there would be no victims of crimes.
I didn't know the meaning of the word 'tact' when talking to the 'bosses' until I was 40+ and has you can tell there a few people on this site who don't have a clue. I thing I have maintained a fair amount of 'tact' and self control considering the attacks on me personaly and police profession in general.[;)]
Sells,
You are wasteing our time (but it is good entertainment to others) because your prejudices are just to deep rooted. (see above) You will not change your attitude until you get some serious reality theraphy!![:)] Have a nice day, take a few deep breaths, and have a cold one or three. Life is to short to get so fired up over the computer!!![;)]
Footlong,
So true. Been there saw that, done that, and have the scars to prove it![V]