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quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
Your assessment is inaccurate, and I was simply correcting you, not complaining.You certainly are entitled to your opinion; mine is mine. Thank you for sharing.
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
Forced? Where do you get that garbage, an NAACP textbook? And, the north suffered FAR more deaths and other casualties just so you know who got the worst end of the fighting and dying. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by wsfiredude
Your assessment is inaccurate, and I was simply correcting you, not complaining.
You certainly are entitled to your opinion; mine is mine. Thank you for sharing.
You are entitled to your opinion, however, in this case your opinion in wrong.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Forced? Where do you get that garbage, an NAACP textbook? And, the north suffered FAR more deaths and other casualties just so you know who got the worst end of the fighting and dying. [;)]
LMAO!!!
Who marched THROUGH Georgia? Lee or Sherman? Who devastated the south, Lee or Sherman? How much damage was done to New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, or Boston compared to Atlanta or Richmond? Duhh.
Let me clue you in: Lee surrendered himself and his army to General Sherman. Duhh.
Thanks for the laughs, kimi, I enjoyed it. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
Wrong, again, old woman. It was Grant, not Sherman.
quote:Originally posted by jimdeere
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
Wrong, again, old woman. It was Grant, not Sherman.Congratulations, you passed the test. You are the only one, though. So much for southern knowledge and history, eh? LMAO.
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I spent time in Alabama on a baseball scholarship in 1983 . 17 years old out of high school from a small Upstate NY town. Everyone of those guys at that school in Alabama hated me because I was a Yankee from NY. I never could understand after 120 plus years after they got their butts whooped why they still hated me for it. I'll never forget the way I was treated .
Why would you even accept a scholarship from a school in Alabama in the first place? Could you not get one from one of the ivy league schools in New England?
Have you ever thought that it may be for another reason that they hated you --- like attitude maybe ? Were you the only one at that school that was not from the South?
Was it Auburn or Alabama?
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I spent time in Alabama on a baseball scholarship in 1983 . 17 years old out of high school from a small Upstate NY town. Everyone of those guys at that school in Alabama hated me because I was a Yankee from NY. I never could understand after 120 plus years after they got their butts whooped why they still hated me for it. I'll never forget the way I was treated .I read your post. Are you saying that that "every guy" at that Alabama school "hated" you because you were from a different locale, and that your actions had nothing to do with it?Kimi, from my experiences as a Southerner growing up in the South and going to college in the South, I think your assessment has merit. In the 60's we had many folks from the North going to college down South and I never saw the issues MFI states, unless there was some type of animosity on their part, but I'm also not suggesting that it didn't happen, I just didn't see this type of behavior. As a matter of fact, one of my good friends in college was from New York and after he graduated he became a teacher in the town where I graduated from high school and he is still there. He was a hoot trying to talk Southern with that heavy New York dialect! [:D]
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
quote:Originally posted by Old-Colts
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I spent time in Alabama on a baseball scholarship in 1983 . 17 years old out of high school from a small Upstate NY town. Everyone of those guys at that school in Alabama hated me because I was a Yankee from NY. I never could understand after 120 plus years after they got their butts whooped why they still hated me for it. I'll never forget the way I was treated .I read your post. Are you saying that that "every guy" at that Alabama school "hated" you because you were from a different locale, and that your actions had nothing to do with it?Kimi, from my experiences as a Southerner growing up in the South and going to college in the South, I think your assessment has merit. In the 60's we had many folks from the North going to college down South and I never saw the issues MFI states, unless there was some type of animosity on their part, but I'm also not suggesting that it didn't happen, I just didn't see this type of behavior. As a matter of fact, one of my good friends in college was from New York and after he graduated he became a teacher in the town where I graduated from high school and he is still there. He was a hoot trying to talk Southern with that heavy New York dialect! [:D]
I, too, grew up with a bunch of newly arrived boys and girls from New York! What a great family they were. I'll always cherish the many great memories I share with them. Their Dad looked just like John Wayne...no kidding. And, he was a Naval Commander, however, he had died, and we all lived in the same four plex. I do believe that such a mentality that was mentioned can be found most anywhwere human beings congregate though.
First time I went up North was to visit relatives in Ohio. I got my nose broke at age 13 by a guy that didn't like the way I talked. I don't hate dislike Northerners for that, that'd be racist.
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
wrap your head in a towel and bend over to face mecca hairy. your flag is the flag of hatred[;)][V]Your blatant ignorance is on display again.
My flag happens to the the Flag of the United States of America, not some colored rag used by a lot of southern trash types. If that offends you, good. [;)]
Who are you to judge anyone to the extent of calling them "southern white trash" oh I know I guess you are the type that has had everything handed to you your whole life and didn't have to work for nothing. Well I live in a trailer if that makes me White trash then so be it. Why don't you do us all a favor and stretch your bottom lip over your head and Swallow one good time...
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
Congratulations, you passed the test. You are the only one, though. So much for southern knowledge and history, eh? LMAO.
Hairy harps on and on about Lee surrendering to Sherman....when he gets called on it, its a "test" and he knew the answer all along.
"To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of the modern age."
Senator James Webb
(U.S. Navy Secretary 1987-1988)
you asked and i will tell....don't mean crap to me, being born and raised in the upper northern plains along with all my other family members of the past....where you either have to be tuff, die or leave[:D] stir stir
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the [blue]great UNION General Sherman
You mean "uncle Billy" Sherman? Who defeated countless women,children, old men,untrained home guards,and blacks in his famed "march to the sea"? The same W. T. Sherman who was later the Commander of the army and contributed to the "manifest destiny" policy of destruction of the plains Indians?
Naw he weren't present at Appomattox, He wuz still down in NC bravely killing civilians! [;)]
I think you probably were referring to the "great" General U. S. Grant, lauded for defeating the Army of Northern Virginia and later famed for having one of the most corrupt administrations while President in the annals of American history.
Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but it is a symbol of racism.
Take a look at any of the Confederate declarations of secession and they were quite clear on their opinions of black people.
State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves. It wasn't about the right to bear arms or free speech. It was about rejecting the federal government's insistence that slavery be abolished.
Right or wrong, it was a battle flag that stood for the inherent inequality of humanity, stating that certain states and certain individuals had a right to own other individuals.
If they were indeed fighting to be free of the tyranny of the government, then why was it to preserve the tyranny of some men over others?
I know my opinion will not be popular with the revisionist, selective-history crowd here, but it's the truth. And given that the Union defeated the Confederacy, the Stars and Bars was never given the opportunity to be redefined.
At best, the Stars and Bars, like the fleur-de-lis (sp?) of royal France or the double-headed eagle of Austria-Hungary, is a historical relic and should remain so.
At worst, it is a symbol of hypocrisy and elitism, a flag that states in no uncertain terms that some men are created mroe equal than others because the state says so.
quote:Originally posted by hivoltg
This thread is not about the Stars and Bars, it is abouot the Confederate Battle Flag. You do understand that they are different, don't you?
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Now please attempt to refute the fact that the "state's rights" people refer to refers to the right of states to dictate that it is an inalienable right of white people to own black slaves and the children of slaves as property with no more rights than one would grant a pair of shoes.
quote:State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves.
have you even read the emancipation proclamation?
slavery wasn't even an issue, it wasn't until around the 4th year of the war, Lincoln declared southern slaves free "if" they joined the war, the war had nothing to do with slavery at all, wasn't even a consideration
This thread is not about the Stars and Bars, it is abouot the Confederate Battle Flag. You do understand that they are different, don't you?
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Sorry, but I have to stick my oar in here. Neither flag is a "racist" emblem, in and of itself. Some hate groups choose to use them as such, but that is their problem.
The flag is just as much a part of our history as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag.
The flag of The Confederacy once flew over the ground I live on, therefore it is proper and legal to fly that flag here.
EMM, you're from Kalifornia, aren't you? That might explain your intolerant attitude.
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
quote:State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves.
have you even read the emancipation proclamation?
slavery wasn't even an issue, it wasn't until around the 4th year of the war, Lincoln declared southern slaves free "if" they joined the war, the war had nothing to do with slavery at all, wasn't even a consideration
Here is probably something a few don't know.. Blacks fought for the Confederacy
Darn right they did. I figure many of them joined up and fought for the same reason as their white brethren: They took offense at seeing foreign troops invading their lands, burning their homes and crops, slaughtering and stealing their stock, murdering innocent citizens, raping women, and looting.
For more than thirty years, arguments between the North and South had been growing. One of these quarrels was about taxes paid on goods brought into this country from foreign countries. In 1828, Northern businessmen helped get the "Tariff Act" passed. It raised the prices of manufactured products from Europe which were sold mainly in the South.
The purpose of the law was to encourage the South to buy the North's products. It angered the Southern people to have to pay more for the goods they wanted from Europe or pay more to get goods from the North. Either way the Southern people were forced to pay more because of the efforts of Northern businessmen. Though most of tariff laws had been changed by the time of the Civil War, the Southern people still remembered how they were treated by the Northern people.
In the years, before the Civil War the political power in the Federal government, centered in Washington D.C., was changing. The Northern and Mid-Western States were becoming more and more powerful as the populations increased. The Southern States were losing political power. Just as the original thirteen colonies fought for their independence almost 100 years earlier, the Southern States felt a growing need for freedom from the central Federal authority in Washington D.C. They felt that each State should make its own laws. This issue was called "State's Rights". Some Southern States wanted to secede, or break away from the United States of America and govern themselves.
Prior to the war, there were more groups in the South than in the North that opposed slavery. They generally helped the slaves by purchasing their freedom and working for legislation that protected slaves. These groups were keenly aware of the plight of the freed slaves, a plight that often seemed worse than that of a slave, and spent a great deal of their energy assisting freed men. Equal rights were more than a hundred years off, and most states (including some Northern) had laws that prohibited free blacks from immigrating, employment was difficult to come by, and free blacks were often forced into the most horrible situations.
Indeed the South didn't secede because Lincoln freed the slaves, that didn't happen till after the war. The Southern States seceded because they felt disenfranchised with the Federal Union. The Southern States had long expressed concern that they were losing their voice in Congress. Southerners felt they had no say in the governing of the nation.
The election of Lincoln caused many Southerners to lose faith in the Federal Union. It illustrated for many, that the Federal government was beyond their control. No longer was the Union a government of the people, they had become a governed people. No one likes to be told what to do, especially a rural Southerner. When the Southern citizen saw that the government no longer heard his voice it became time to form a new government. No the South didn't secde because it wanted to keep its slaves. People felt like they were losing control of their own lives. When the South saw its freedom at risk, it decided to act.
Lincoln's War was about freedom, not the freedom of slaves, but the freedom of the South. The war did bring an end to slavery, but although the war may have freed the slaves from their masters rule, its legacy has enslaved us all. No longer can we say we we govern ourselves, but we have inherited a government that requires more and more of our liberties.
Now, where is your proof that it was "only about slavery"?
quote:Originally posted by cowdoc
you asked and i will tell....don't mean crap to me, being born and raised in the upper northern plains along with all my other family members of the past....where you either have to be tuff, die or leave[:D] stir stir
So which indian tribe are you from, cowdoc?[:D]
(Note: A lot of southern land was stolen from the indians, too. Many Cherokee owned land "legally", paid taxes, and considered themselves American citizens.)
By the way, my great grandmother was Cherokee.
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the New York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone because as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people down here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
MFI, on behalf of all decent southern people, I apologize for the way you were treated. Like I said above, I got my nose broke at age 13 by an Ohioan who didn't like the way I talked. But I don't hold that against all "Yankees".
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Darn right they did. I figure many of them joined up and fought for the same reason as their white brethren: They took offense at seeing foreign troops invading their lands, burning their homes and crops, slaughtering and stealing their stock, murdering innocent citizens, raping women, and looting. Holy Mackeral, Nunn!! They react just like the Palestinians do!!!
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the NEw York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone becuae as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people doen here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
Most all of what you say makes good sense. People can and do have experiences that are not to their liking.
The family of children that moved next to us in SE Texas were from the Bronx, and they were incredibly fantastic people, all.
I don't think the subject war would be that big of a deal today were it not for the hate mongers who refer to southern heritage and like symbols as being racist. Big money and double-standards are required to keep the racist NAACP's civil rights movement running full steam ahead. This machine requires someone to suffer, financially and otherwise, and who better than the racist southern whiteys make a better political football? At times like this, it's good for everyone to show just a smidgen of the least little bit of common sense, and the following quote helps the good at heart do just that: (posted earlier on this thread.)
"To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of the modern age."
Senator James Webb
(U.S. Navy Secretary 1987-1988)
Comments
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]
Your assessment is inaccurate, and I was simply correcting you, not complaining.You certainly are entitled to your opinion; mine is mine. Thank you for sharing.
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]
Ya ain't jus whistlin' Dixie either Jake! Night to ya.
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
Forced? Where do you get that garbage, an NAACP textbook? And, the north suffered FAR more deaths and other casualties just so you know who got the worst end of the fighting and dying. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by wsfiredude
Your assessment is inaccurate, and I was simply correcting you, not complaining.
You certainly are entitled to your opinion; mine is mine. Thank you for sharing.
You are entitled to your opinion, however, in this case your opinion in wrong.
I stated no opinion, only facts.
Forced? Where do you get that garbage, an NAACP textbook? And, the north suffered FAR more deaths and other casualties just so you know who got the worst end of the fighting and dying. [;)]
LMAO!!!
Who marched THROUGH Georgia? Lee or Sherman? Who devastated the south, Lee or Sherman? How much damage was done to New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, or Boston compared to Atlanta or Richmond? Duhh.
Let me clue you in: Lee surrendered himself and his army to General Sherman. Duhh.
Thanks for the laughs, kimi, I enjoyed it. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
You are entitled to your opinion, however, in this case your opinion in wrong.
I stated no opinion, only facts.I believe you believe it, but I don't believe it. Yee Haw!
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
Wrong, again, old woman. It was Grant, not Sherman.
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by Jacob2008
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
gotta go to bed boys...GOD BLESS ROBERT E LEE[;)][:D]
[}:)][:D]Good night.
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the great UNION General Sherman, who kicked the bejesus out of Lee and his soldiers, right? [;)][;)]
Wrong, again, old woman. It was Grant, not Sherman.Congratulations, you passed the test. You are the only one, though. So much for southern knowledge and history, eh? LMAO.
I spent time in Alabama on a baseball scholarship in 1983 . 17 years old out of high school from a small Upstate NY town. Everyone of those guys at that school in Alabama hated me because I was a Yankee from NY. I never could understand after 120 plus years after they got their butts whooped why they still hated me for it. I'll never forget the way I was treated .
Why would you even accept a scholarship from a school in Alabama in the first place? Could you not get one from one of the ivy league schools in New England?
Have you ever thought that it may be for another reason that they hated you --- like attitude maybe ? Were you the only one at that school that was not from the South?
Was it Auburn or Alabama?
Thanks---Peabo
quote:
Originally posted by wsfiredude
You are entitled to your opinion, however, in this case your opinion in wrong.
I stated no opinion, only facts.
I believe you believe it, but I don't believe it. Yee Haw!
So, if I understand you correctly, you assume that anyone (myself included) who either:
1) Has pride in Southern heritage
2) Displays or supports display of a Confederate flag
is a racist / redneck / biggot / KKK member or supporter?
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I spent time in Alabama on a baseball scholarship in 1983 . 17 years old out of high school from a small Upstate NY town. Everyone of those guys at that school in Alabama hated me because I was a Yankee from NY. I never could understand after 120 plus years after they got their butts whooped why they still hated me for it. I'll never forget the way I was treated .I read your post. Are you saying that that "every guy" at that Alabama school "hated" you because you were from a different locale, and that your actions had nothing to do with it?Kimi, from my experiences as a Southerner growing up in the South and going to college in the South, I think your assessment has merit. In the 60's we had many folks from the North going to college down South and I never saw the issues MFI states, unless there was some type of animosity on their part, but I'm also not suggesting that it didn't happen, I just didn't see this type of behavior. As a matter of fact, one of my good friends in college was from New York and after he graduated he became a teacher in the town where I graduated from high school and he is still there. He was a hoot trying to talk Southern with that heavy New York dialect! [:D]
If you can't feel the music; it's only pink noise!
Union: Over 350,000 dead
Confederate: 254,000 dead
Dig it: Over 90,000 more Union military dead - Who kicked who's *?
Union: 281,881 wounded
Confederate: 101,000 wounded
Dig it: Over 180,000 more Union military wounded than Confederates - Who kicked who's *?:
All of you blowhards go peddle your lies somewhere else.
[img][/img]
I might just stay up all night. I'm on vacation this week.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I spent time in Alabama on a baseball scholarship in 1983 . 17 years old out of high school from a small Upstate NY town. Everyone of those guys at that school in Alabama hated me because I was a Yankee from NY. I never could understand after 120 plus years after they got their butts whooped why they still hated me for it. I'll never forget the way I was treated .I read your post. Are you saying that that "every guy" at that Alabama school "hated" you because you were from a different locale, and that your actions had nothing to do with it?Kimi, from my experiences as a Southerner growing up in the South and going to college in the South, I think your assessment has merit. In the 60's we had many folks from the North going to college down South and I never saw the issues MFI states, unless there was some type of animosity on their part, but I'm also not suggesting that it didn't happen, I just didn't see this type of behavior. As a matter of fact, one of my good friends in college was from New York and after he graduated he became a teacher in the town where I graduated from high school and he is still there. He was a hoot trying to talk Southern with that heavy New York dialect! [:D]
I, too, grew up with a bunch of newly arrived boys and girls from New York! What a great family they were. I'll always cherish the many great memories I share with them. Their Dad looked just like John Wayne...no kidding. And, he was a Naval Commander, however, he had died, and we all lived in the same four plex. I do believe that such a mentality that was mentioned can be found most anywhwere human beings congregate though.
"Oh, I wish I were in the land of cotton...
I might just stay up all night. I'm on vacation this week.
,long time there and not forgotten, look away! look
Have a great vacation jimdeere.
quote:Originally posted by tomahawk
wrap your head in a towel and bend over to face mecca hairy. your flag is the flag of hatred[;)][V]Your blatant ignorance is on display again.
My flag happens to the the Flag of the United States of America, not some colored rag used by a lot of southern trash types. If that offends you, good. [;)]
Who are you to judge anyone to the extent of calling them "southern white trash" oh I know I guess you are the type that has had everything handed to you your whole life and didn't have to work for nothing. Well I live in a trailer if that makes me White trash then so be it. Why don't you do us all a favor and stretch your bottom lip over your head and Swallow one good time...
Congratulations, you passed the test. You are the only one, though. So much for southern knowledge and history, eh? LMAO.
Hairy harps on and on about Lee surrendering to Sherman....when he gets called on it, its a "test" and he knew the answer all along.
Thats funny, I don't care who you are.
"To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of the modern age."
Senator James Webb
(U.S. Navy Secretary 1987-1988)
And wasn't he the guy who was forced to surrender to the [blue]great UNION General Sherman
You mean "uncle Billy" Sherman? Who defeated countless women,children, old men,untrained home guards,and blacks in his famed "march to the sea"? The same W. T. Sherman who was later the Commander of the army and contributed to the "manifest destiny" policy of destruction of the plains Indians?
Naw he weren't present at Appomattox, He wuz still down in NC bravely killing civilians! [;)]
I think you probably were referring to the "great" General U. S. Grant, lauded for defeating the Army of Northern Virginia and later famed for having one of the most corrupt administrations while President in the annals of American history.
Allen
Take a look at any of the Confederate declarations of secession and they were quite clear on their opinions of black people.
State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves. It wasn't about the right to bear arms or free speech. It was about rejecting the federal government's insistence that slavery be abolished.
Right or wrong, it was a battle flag that stood for the inherent inequality of humanity, stating that certain states and certain individuals had a right to own other individuals.
If they were indeed fighting to be free of the tyranny of the government, then why was it to preserve the tyranny of some men over others?
I know my opinion will not be popular with the revisionist, selective-history crowd here, but it's the truth. And given that the Union defeated the Confederacy, the Stars and Bars was never given the opportunity to be redefined.
At best, the Stars and Bars, like the fleur-de-lis (sp?) of royal France or the double-headed eagle of Austria-Hungary, is a historical relic and should remain so.
At worst, it is a symbol of hypocrisy and elitism, a flag that states in no uncertain terms that some men are created mroe equal than others because the state says so.
This thread is not about the Stars and Bars, it is abouot the Confederate Battle Flag. You do understand that they are different, don't you?
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Now please attempt to refute the fact that the "state's rights" people refer to refers to the right of states to dictate that it is an inalienable right of white people to own black slaves and the children of slaves as property with no more rights than one would grant a pair of shoes.
have you even read the emancipation proclamation?
slavery wasn't even an issue, it wasn't until around the 4th year of the war, Lincoln declared southern slaves free "if" they joined the war, the war had nothing to do with slavery at all, wasn't even a consideration
quote:
Originally posted by hivoltg
This thread is not about the Stars and Bars, it is abouot the Confederate Battle Flag. You do understand that they are different, don't you?
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Sorry, but I have to stick my oar in here. Neither flag is a "racist" emblem, in and of itself. Some hate groups choose to use them as such, but that is their problem.
The flag is just as much a part of our history as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag.
The flag of The Confederacy once flew over the ground I live on, therefore it is proper and legal to fly that flag here.
EMM, you're from Kalifornia, aren't you? That might explain your intolerant attitude.
quote:State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves.
have you even read the emancipation proclamation?
slavery wasn't even an issue, it wasn't until around the 4th year of the war, Lincoln declared southern slaves free "if" they joined the war, the war had nothing to do with slavery at all, wasn't even a consideration
Here is probably something a few don't know.. Blacks fought for the Confederacy
http://www.forrestsescort.org/blacks.htm
For more than thirty years, arguments between the North and South had been growing. One of these quarrels was about taxes paid on goods brought into this country from foreign countries. In 1828, Northern businessmen helped get the "Tariff Act" passed. It raised the prices of manufactured products from Europe which were sold mainly in the South.
The purpose of the law was to encourage the South to buy the North's products. It angered the Southern people to have to pay more for the goods they wanted from Europe or pay more to get goods from the North. Either way the Southern people were forced to pay more because of the efforts of Northern businessmen. Though most of tariff laws had been changed by the time of the Civil War, the Southern people still remembered how they were treated by the Northern people.
In the years, before the Civil War the political power in the Federal government, centered in Washington D.C., was changing. The Northern and Mid-Western States were becoming more and more powerful as the populations increased. The Southern States were losing political power. Just as the original thirteen colonies fought for their independence almost 100 years earlier, the Southern States felt a growing need for freedom from the central Federal authority in Washington D.C. They felt that each State should make its own laws. This issue was called "State's Rights". Some Southern States wanted to secede, or break away from the United States of America and govern themselves.
Prior to the war, there were more groups in the South than in the North that opposed slavery. They generally helped the slaves by purchasing their freedom and working for legislation that protected slaves. These groups were keenly aware of the plight of the freed slaves, a plight that often seemed worse than that of a slave, and spent a great deal of their energy assisting freed men. Equal rights were more than a hundred years off, and most states (including some Northern) had laws that prohibited free blacks from immigrating, employment was difficult to come by, and free blacks were often forced into the most horrible situations.
Indeed the South didn't secede because Lincoln freed the slaves, that didn't happen till after the war. The Southern States seceded because they felt disenfranchised with the Federal Union. The Southern States had long expressed concern that they were losing their voice in Congress. Southerners felt they had no say in the governing of the nation.
The election of Lincoln caused many Southerners to lose faith in the Federal Union. It illustrated for many, that the Federal government was beyond their control. No longer was the Union a government of the people, they had become a governed people. No one likes to be told what to do, especially a rural Southerner. When the Southern citizen saw that the government no longer heard his voice it became time to form a new government. No the South didn't secde because it wanted to keep its slaves. People felt like they were losing control of their own lives. When the South saw its freedom at risk, it decided to act.
Lincoln's War was about freedom, not the freedom of slaves, but the freedom of the South. The war did bring an end to slavery, but although the war may have freed the slaves from their masters rule, its legacy has enslaved us all. No longer can we say we we govern ourselves, but we have inherited a government that requires more and more of our liberties.
Now, where is your proof that it was "only about slavery"?
you asked and i will tell....don't mean crap to me, being born and raised in the upper northern plains along with all my other family members of the past....where you either have to be tuff, die or leave[:D] stir stir
So which indian tribe are you from, cowdoc?[:D]
(Note: A lot of southern land was stolen from the indians, too. Many Cherokee owned land "legally", paid taxes, and considered themselves American citizens.)
By the way, my great grandmother was Cherokee.
Darn right they did. I figure many of them joined up and fought for the same reason as their white brethren: They took offense at seeing foreign troops invading their lands, burning their homes and crops, slaughtering and stealing their stock, murdering innocent citizens, raping women, and looting. Holy Mackeral, Nunn!! They react just like the Palestinians do!!!
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the NEw York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone becuae as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people doen here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
Most all of what you say makes good sense. People can and do have experiences that are not to their liking.
The family of children that moved next to us in SE Texas were from the Bronx, and they were incredibly fantastic people, all.
I don't think the subject war would be that big of a deal today were it not for the hate mongers who refer to southern heritage and like symbols as being racist. Big money and double-standards are required to keep the racist NAACP's civil rights movement running full steam ahead. This machine requires someone to suffer, financially and otherwise, and who better than the racist southern whiteys make a better political football? At times like this, it's good for everyone to show just a smidgen of the least little bit of common sense, and the following quote helps the good at heart do just that: (posted earlier on this thread.)
"To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of the modern age."
Senator James Webb
(U.S. Navy Secretary 1987-1988)