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I have no problem with the men who fought to defend their homes as part of the Confederate army, but there is no arguing against the whole of what the Confederates fought for.
The defense of home was one reason - and an honorable one at that. I have no problem with that.
But just as many Germans fought under the swastika for honorable reasons - anti-communism and defense of their homeland - there is a greater whole to be considered. Many Waffen SS units, for example, were never proven to have committed atrocities and, in fact, conducted themselves quite honorably.
But just as the swastika stood for a lot of things, many of them honorable and many of them inhuman, it is hard, if not impossible, to separate the ills the Confederate flag stood for from the honor it upheld.
Do not mistake my historical objectivity for disdain. Was it a racist symbol? Yes. Does that make its supporters or the men who fought under it racist? Of course not.
I would be a hypocrite if I said all those who were Confederate veterans were racist bigots. I have stood up on these forums for blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, conservatives, liberals, and a whole host of others... I would rightfully be called two-faced if I did not stand up for my fellow Southerners.
If anything, the only bigots in the Confederacy were is leaders. As the popular saying went at the time, it was a rich man's war, but a poor man's fight. Poor men, by and large, did not own slaves.
But as the sociopolitical elite called the shots and made slavery an issue (and I refer to the elite on both sides of the conflict), by necessity the side that was for secession as a means of preserving the status quo were for the institution of slavery just as anyone who joined the Chinese PLA in the 1940's was by their participation for the establishment of communism in China.
I would like to reiterate that I do not call those who fought for the Confederacy racist any more than I call all Germans who fought during World War II Nazis or all Israelis Zionists. But there is no room for debate where the colors are concerned because as it was the battle standard for a government that had authorized the use of force to maintain the institution of slavery, it is by definition a racist emblem.
I hope everyone can see the difference in what I am saying and can accept the fact that while I don't care too much for the flag, I care a great deal for the good things for which it stood because the ideals of Southern culture stand alone while the colors of the Confederacy come with too much baggage to ignore.
They fought for their homes, EMM. They fought for their people, they fought because they were threatened by a lunatic and his military hoardes.
Here you go again comparing the Germans with Southerners, what's your real beef with the Confederate and Nazi comparison EMM? Where are the ovens? Houston, Atlanta, Charleston, Richmond? Most of your post is a horribly weak attempt to compare the Nazi and the ensuing Holocaust as being similar to The War of Northern Agression. Only a fool would attempt to compare sotuhern people with those who exterminated the Jews in ovens and all other manical forms of torture. There are those, too, who want the slave issue in America to be treated like it was the Jewish Holocaust. This for further gain like more diversity/disunity and slave reparations. And, I must admit EMM, you sound exactly like those racist pukes. And whether or not you realize it, you sure are leading the way for them with the lies and propaganda that you are spewing. Are you one of these people? If not, why act like one?
What ills of the Confederate Flag, EMM? How can you compare over two hundred years of slave history that existed under the Union Jack and Old Glory with 3+ years of Confederate history? Such reasoning amounts to nothing more than attempting to make a scapegoat of something. And, in this case, it's the Confederate people and their flags as being the racist. Should these people suffer the punishment for the world engaging in slavery? Should everyone else and their symbols get a free pass, since you do not crucify them and their symbols? As a matter of FACT, such a weak attempt vividly illustrates the contempt you have for the previous 200 years of opression that slaves lived under a different flag...Old Glory and the Union Jack. What kind of a nut would even suggest such an idiotic idea, unless they are fostering an anti-American agenda?
You act the anti-American racist here, EMM. That's the way I see it buddy.
You might want to read Senator James Webb's quote again, EMM, and then tell me that "there is no arguing against the whole of what the Confederates fought for." This, as you so aptly put it, while at the same time pandering to the typical reader that the Confederate soldier was the nice guy deserving of great honor, but nontheless, without saying it outright that they were soldiers who were loyal to their racist ways and flags.
"To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of the modern age."
Senator James Webb
(U.S. Navy Secretary 1987-1988)
I see what you are saying as promoting: "...one of the great blasphemies of the modern age." Congratulations, EMM. Your attempts to associate the Southern people and their emblems and memorials as nothing more than "racist on the whole" was stirring, indeed.
Comments
kimi,
I have no problem with the men who fought to defend their homes as part of the Confederate army, but there is no arguing against the whole of what the Confederates fought for.
The defense of home was one reason - and an honorable one at that. I have no problem with that.
But just as many Germans fought under the swastika for honorable reasons - anti-communism and defense of their homeland - there is a greater whole to be considered. Many Waffen SS units, for example, were never proven to have committed atrocities and, in fact, conducted themselves quite honorably.
But just as the swastika stood for a lot of things, many of them honorable and many of them inhuman, it is hard, if not impossible, to separate the ills the Confederate flag stood for from the honor it upheld.
Do not mistake my historical objectivity for disdain. Was it a racist symbol? Yes. Does that make its supporters or the men who fought under it racist? Of course not.
I would be a hypocrite if I said all those who were Confederate veterans were racist bigots. I have stood up on these forums for blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, conservatives, liberals, and a whole host of others... I would rightfully be called two-faced if I did not stand up for my fellow Southerners.
If anything, the only bigots in the Confederacy were is leaders. As the popular saying went at the time, it was a rich man's war, but a poor man's fight. Poor men, by and large, did not own slaves.
But as the sociopolitical elite called the shots and made slavery an issue (and I refer to the elite on both sides of the conflict), by necessity the side that was for secession as a means of preserving the status quo were for the institution of slavery just as anyone who joined the Chinese PLA in the 1940's was by their participation for the establishment of communism in China.
I would like to reiterate that I do not call those who fought for the Confederacy racist any more than I call all Germans who fought during World War II Nazis or all Israelis Zionists. But there is no room for debate where the colors are concerned because as it was the battle standard for a government that had authorized the use of force to maintain the institution of slavery, it is by definition a racist emblem.
I hope everyone can see the difference in what I am saying and can accept the fact that while I don't care too much for the flag, I care a great deal for the good things for which it stood because the ideals of Southern culture stand alone while the colors of the Confederacy come with too much baggage to ignore.
They fought for their homes, EMM. They fought for their people, they fought because they were threatened by a lunatic and his military hoardes.
Here you go again comparing the Germans with Southerners, what's your real beef with the Confederate and Nazi comparison EMM? Where are the ovens? Houston, Atlanta, Charleston, Richmond? Most of your post is a horribly weak attempt to compare the Nazi and the ensuing Holocaust as being similar to The War of Northern Agression. Only a fool would attempt to compare sotuhern people with those who exterminated the Jews in ovens and all other manical forms of torture. There are those, too, who want the slave issue in America to be treated like it was the Jewish Holocaust. This for further gain like more diversity/disunity and slave reparations. And, I must admit EMM, you sound exactly like those racist pukes. And whether or not you realize it, you sure are leading the way for them with the lies and propaganda that you are spewing. Are you one of these people? If not, why act like one?
What ills of the Confederate Flag, EMM? How can you compare over two hundred years of slave history that existed under the Union Jack and Old Glory with 3+ years of Confederate history? Such reasoning amounts to nothing more than attempting to make a scapegoat of something. And, in this case, it's the Confederate people and their flags as being the racist. Should these people suffer the punishment for the world engaging in slavery? Should everyone else and their symbols get a free pass, since you do not crucify them and their symbols? As a matter of FACT, such a weak attempt vividly illustrates the contempt you have for the previous 200 years of opression that slaves lived under a different flag...Old Glory and the Union Jack. What kind of a nut would even suggest such an idiotic idea, unless they are fostering an anti-American agenda?
You act the anti-American racist here, EMM. That's the way I see it buddy.
You might want to read Senator James Webb's quote again, EMM, and then tell me that "there is no arguing against the whole of what the Confederates fought for." This, as you so aptly put it, while at the same time pandering to the typical reader that the Confederate soldier was the nice guy deserving of great honor, but nontheless, without saying it outright that they were soldiers who were loyal to their racist ways and flags.
"To tar the sacrifices of the Confederate soldier as simple acts of racism, and reduce the battle flag under which he fought to nothing more than the symbol of a racist heritage, is one of the great blasphemies of the modern age."
Senator James Webb
(U.S. Navy Secretary 1987-1988)
I see what you are saying as promoting: "...one of the great blasphemies of the modern age." Congratulations, EMM. Your attempts to associate the Southern people and their emblems and memorials as nothing more than "racist on the whole" was stirring, indeed.
It meant more than that when I was younger, but now that I am older I recognize that it belongs in a museum.
DSM