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quote:Originally posted by Rosie
Too many fought and died under that flag for us not to honor it. To me it is the second most important flag in the world.
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
quote:State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves.
have you even read the emancipation proclamation?
slavery wasn't even an issue, it wasn't until around the 4th year of the war, Lincoln declared southern slaves free "if" they joined the war, the war had nothing to do with slavery at all, wasn't even a consideration
correct it didnt free all slaves just ones from confederate states. northners owned slaves also just dont hear about it.later in the war the only way lincon could get some states to send troops for the union was to free slaves.read enough & you see lincon was actualy a white supremest.
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the NEw York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone becuae as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people doen here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
MFI,
Thank you for explaining more about your situation in Alabama.
I don't think the Civil War was even thought of when they called you a Yankee. Anyone down here from the North-East, is thought of as a Yankee.
When I was in 7th grade, a mother with four son's move to my home town of Cullman, Alabama. They were from Patchegue, New York, which you may know is on Long Island. (I know, there is quiet a difference in the people from Up-State NY and Long Islanders) Their accent gave them away right away as Yankees. We (I) didn't even think of the Civil War when we called them Yankees !!!
Three of the boys adapted and fit in quiet well, but the other one seemed to have the attitude that he was superior to everyone else in his class. He was never accepted in the neighborhood as 'just one of the boys". He moved away after graduation, never to return. He will not even attend any of the class reunions with the excuse that he -- "has nothing in common with the rest of the class". The other three still live there, in Cullman, and are doing quiet well for themselves.
Andalusia and Oneonta are quiet a distance apart. Cullman is just north-west of Oneonta.
Sorry to hear of your experience in Alabama, wish it could have been better.
I think at my age I wasnt prepared for things. My experiences have helped me grown up a bit though and since then my life has been excellent except for my battle with cancer which for now I have won. If I had the chance again I would go back and suck it up . I might still be playing where Mr Jeter plays now. Thanks to all .. I hold no grudges..
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I think at my age I wasnt prepared for things. My experiences have helped me grown up a bit though and since then my life has been excellent except for my battle with cancer which for now I have won. If I had the chance again I would go back and suck it up . I might still be playing where Mr Jeter plays now. Thanks to all .. I hold no grudges..
Good to hear that your battle with cancer is going your way !!
If I were you, I would go back too, but I don't think I would just 'suck it up'. I would tell them " Hell yes, I'm a Yankee and proud of it". Just as we Rebels would say, "Hell yes, I'm a Rebel and damn proud of it".
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I think at my age I wasnt prepared for things. My experiences have helped me grown up a bit though and since then my life has been excellent except for my battle with cancer which for now I have won. If I had the chance again I would go back and suck it up . I might still be playing where Mr Jeter plays now. Thanks to all .. I hold no grudges..
I'm betting that you are far too tough for the cancer MFI! Have a great day.
Sorry, but I have to stick my oar in here. Neither flag is a "racist" emblem, in and of itself. Some hate groups choose to use them as such, but that is their problem.
The flag is just as much a part of our history as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag.
The flag of The Confederacy once flew over the ground I live on, therefore it is proper and legal to fly that flag here.
EMM, you're from Kalifornia, aren't you? That might explain your intolerant attitude.
Nunn,
The Nazi flag once flew over Germany. Does that make it an honorable part of their heritage? After all, many Nazis and Germans fought in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS to defend Germany and combat communism without once committing any war crimes.
Now before you accuse me of equating the Confederacy with Nazi Germany, let me note that my point is that there are honorable and laudable causes to be found under any flag. But in any war, there are only two sides and it is all but impossible to decree who on which side deserves to win or lose. For example, Robert E. Lee owned no slaves and was very much a "liberal" in his day and age - but it would have been impossible to say that since he was a good man he should have won while, let's say, a slave-owning general should have lost. War does not discriminate that way.
And so if you choose a side and you fight for it, you fight for it and all it represents whether or not you agree with it 100%.
It is an undeniable historical fact that many, if not all, of the Southern states declared the inferiority of blacks in their secession declarations.
It is also an undeniable fact that the state's rights the Confederate states were fighting over was the state's right to declare the ownership of other human beings legal. There were approximately zero gun control laws back then, so I doubt the 2nd Amendment was the root cause.
So to say that the Confederacy fought for freedom from tyranny is a disingenuous argument at best. If Johnny Reb was indeed fighting for liberty, it was a limited and unequal liberty at best.
I do not understand this fascination with the Confederacy. Yes, the Confederate flag flew over my homeland once upon a time... so did the Spanish flag and the Mexican flag - there's no way in hell I'm giving those flags any deference.
As I said earlier, as it stands, the Confederacy was never given a chance to redefine herself. History never gave her a chance and as such she must by definition remain a racist entity. To attempt to redefine what she stood for is as revisionist as the people who say blacks invented the airplane or the Chinese reached the moon first.
There is no problem with Southern pride and I still consider myself a Texan first and foremost. But if we truly want to promote our sense of and pride in self-sufficiency, independence, and disdain for tyranny, we should adopt any of a number of emblems that espoused freedom for all, not freedom for some.
If the war wasn't primarily about slavery, then why is it that the election of an avowed abolitionist as president (Lincoln) sparked the secession? Lincoln wasn't calling for new taxes and tariffs on the South, he advocated ending the expansion of slavery into other states. This is what the South found unacceptable. Not taxes or tariffs.
Yes, there were arguments and disagreements over various issues and economic concerns, but it was the election of a president who had vowed to contain (if not end) slavery that drove the South over the edge and into civil war.
Also, if slavery wasn't the overriding issue of the day, why is it that by agreement every new "free" state admitted to the Union had to be accompanied by the admission of a slave state? Clearly this was the issue on everyone's mind at the time. Note that this is how the Southern states defined themselves, as "slave states."
As for the Confederate flag, it is my understanding that many different flags flew over the Confederacy. IMO all are historical. They symbolize a failed nation. Anyone objecting to the Confederate flag should also object to the American flag as it also symbolizes a nation that once allowed slavery. And some black people do object to the American flag. But IMO this is extremist. Every flag in the world has some symbolic oppression to somebody somewhere.
....................................................................................................
Too old to live...too young to die...
EMM: What, in your mind, causes people to associate the Nazi Flag with terror?
Your point about the white people's attitude in regards to feeling superior was held throughout much of the civilized world. One does not exact social change with the ease of turning the handle of a faucet. And your "undeniable fact" is representative of the horrors that tyrannical people like Lincoln make in a rich man's world with the lives of the poor, on both sides in this case.
The Confederates fought because Lincoln threatened them with shedding their blood. Just like the Overmountain Men did at King's Mountain when a smartass Scotsman threatened to come across the mountains and destroy them and their settlements. In effect Johnny Reb and the Overmountain Men did most of the bloodletting against the Yanks and the British units, just like what might happen if you threaten to go over and kick your neighbor's *...the opposite might well happen.
One might question your "unequal Liberty" note as well, with the question: Were the almost 700,000 Americans who died in this war worth another, perhaps, another twenty years of "dialogue" in which time slavery might have ended? Such would have resulted in saving the lives of all those men, and the horrors that people had to endure.
Who, EMM, is "fascinated" with the Confederate Flag? My question to you on this note is how can someone, intelligent as you are, strike out against the brave men who died protecting their families and their homeland, from those politicians who threatened to come on their property and spill their blood?
Quite frankly, EMM, no one, not one soul is asking for you to give reverence to the Confederate Flag. As such, please stay the hell out of the South, and show a "smidgen" of the common sense that Senator James Webb has presented to all Americans, by not attempting to reduce the Confederate soldier and their flag to such a simple term as racism - Oh I forgot, you don't honor common sense where reverence is concerned - or where "good hearted" people are concerned either.
The feces that flows from your mouth with the "racist entity" comment is representative of the most vile hate mongers the extreme left can come up with so as to continue their revisionist history. Additionally, your inability to place yourself in a different era so as to understand that, for the most part, poor men fought a rich man's war is indicative of a moron or an Anti-American activist as I see it.
Also, EMM your "freedom for all note" does not hold an ounce of water, considering that slavery thrived under the British Flag and Old Glory for over two hundred years, as compared to less than four years under the flags of the confederacy.
For the consideration of those supporting what they believe to be "the Confederate Flag", I offer this extract:
quote:Present day reasonable African-Americans I believe are offended by the so-called confederate flag not because it was the symbol allegedly carried by southern troops marching in Pickett's Charge in1863, but because it was the symbol being held by cheering on-lookers as civil rights marchers were being attacked by police dogs in Selma, Alabama in the 1960s. The so-called confederate flag which reasonable African-Americans find offensive is not the flag carried by Lee's troops at the Battle of Chancellorsville in 1863 but rather the flag hoisted defiantly by George Wallace, Ross Barnett, and Lester Maddox in the 1960s--- a flag which became the symbol for "segregation now and segregation forever". A flag which mysteriously began to appear on certain state flags not immediately after the Civil War, as a commemoration of the deeds of soldiers in gray, but rather in the 1950s--right at the time of the beginning rumblings of the Civil Rights movement.
In short, I have concluded that reasonable African - Americans have every right to be offended by the symbols of a burning cross and a so-called flag that was never even the real flag of the Confederacy, let alone a replica of the banner, that southern patriots fought under during their ill--fated struggle for independence.
So even though I think every one and every state has the right to fly whatever flag they want, why fly a flag that is quite likely to give offense to reasonable fellow citizens and is a flag that has little real historical significance to the armed forces of the Confederacy. Now a flag with appropriate battle honors, and correct shape I think is an entirely different situation. In fact I have 5 confederate flags on my pick-up truck-- the true stars and bars, the Bonnie Blue Flag, and three (3) Hardee Corps pattern battle flag reproductions-- 1st Arkansas, 2nd Tennessee, and 5th Confederate.
I mostly agree with the point that most people are flying the "wrong" battle flag, but it should be noted that the horizontal design was used by the Army of Tennessee during the last year of the war.
I usually just fly the Bonnie Blue....most people are to stupid to know what it means anyways
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Sorry, but I have to stick my oar in here. Neither flag is a "racist" emblem, in and of itself. Some hate groups choose to use them as such, but that is their problem.
The flag is just as much a part of our history as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag.
The flag of The Confederacy once flew over the ground I live on, therefore it is proper and legal to fly that flag here.
EMM, you're from Kalifornia, aren't you? That might explain your intolerant attitude.
Nunn,
The Nazi flag once flew over Germany. Does that make it an honorable part of their heritage? After all, many Nazis and Germans fought in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS to defend Germany and combat communism without once committing any war crimes.
Now before you accuse me of equating the Confederacy with Nazi Germany, let me note that my point is that there are honorable and laudable causes to be found under any flag. But in any war, there are only two sides and it is all but impossible to decree who on which side deserves to win or lose. For example, Robert E. Lee owned no slaves and was very much a "liberal" in his day and age - but it would have been impossible to say that since he was a good man he should have won while, let's say, a slave-owning general should have lost. War does not discriminate that way.
And so if you choose a side and you fight for it, you fight for it and all it represents whether or not you agree with it 100%.
It is an undeniable historical fact that many, if not all, of the Southern states declared the inferiority of blacks in their secession declarations.
It is also an undeniable fact that the state's rights the Confederate states were fighting over was the state's right to declare the ownership of other human beings legal. There were approximately zero gun control laws back then, so I doubt the 2nd Amendment was the root cause.
So to say that the Confederacy fought for freedom from tyranny is a disingenuous argument at best. If Johnny Reb was indeed fighting for liberty, it was a limited and unequal liberty at best.
I do not understand this fascination with the Confederacy. Yes, the Confederate flag flew over my homeland once upon a time... so did the Spanish flag and the Mexican flag - there's no way in hell I'm giving those flags any deference.
As I said earlier, as it stands, the Confederacy was never given a chance to redefine herself. History never gave her a chance and as such she must by definition remain a racist entity. To attempt to redefine what she stood for is as revisionist as the people who say blacks invented the airplane or the Chinese reached the moon first.
There is no problem with Southern pride and I still consider myself a Texan first and foremost. But if we truly want to promote our sense of and pride in self-sufficiency, independence, and disdain for tyranny, we should adopt any of a number of emblems that espoused freedom for all, not freedom for some.
Thanks to the race mongers that have been attacking southern heritage in the name of greed and anti-Americanism, we now have a revolution going on, one flag at a time, and with your donation, these memorials will continue. Go to the below link and click on One Flag at a Time, to get started, and then try, The South by Edward Carmack. Then scroll down a little bit and visit the south by clicking on Beautiful Dixie. Go from the Rio Grande to Florida to Virginia. You can spend a lot of time on this site learning about the south and its people.
I am disappointed,the flag reminds me of Daisy Duke, and not one picture of her has been posted!BTW I'M a REDNECK and will fly whatever flag I choose, isn't this a free world?
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
as i said i wasn't talking to youSmall wonder; you are afraid to respond to the questions and be seen for what you might be. [:D][:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by carrie2
I am disappointed,the flag reminds me of Daisy Duke, and not one picture of her has been posted!BTW I'M a REDNECK and will fly whatever flag I choose, isn't this a free world?No, carrie2, it is not a free world but it used to be a free country.
However, you are still entitled to fly your flag. Enjoy. Yee Haw, Dixie! [:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
as i said i wasn't talking to youSmall wonder; you are afraid to respond to the questions and be seen for what you might be. [:D][:D][:D]
listen hard head i dont care about your questions. i wasnt talking to you. i simply asked the man what race he was as to the reason he felt the way he did about the flag in discussion. for your information i am an applachian american and damn proud of it
quote:Originally posted by peabo
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the NEw York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone becuae as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people doen here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
MFI,
Thank you for explaining more about your situation in Alabama.
I don't think the Civil War was even thought of when they called you a Yankee. Anyone down here from the North-East, is thought of as a Yankee.
When I was in 7th grade, a mother with four son's move to my home town of Cullman, Alabama. They were from Patchegue, New York, which you may know is on Long Island. (I know, there is quiet a difference in the people from Up-State NY and Long Islanders) Their accent gave them away right away as Yankees. We (I) didn't even think of the Civil War when we called them Yankees !!!
Three of the boys adapted and fit in quiet well, but the other one seemed to have the attitude that he was superior to everyone else in his class. He was never accepted in the neighborhood as 'just one of the boys". He moved away after graduation, never to return. He will not even attend any of the class reunions with the excuse that he -- "has nothing in common with the rest of the class". The other three still live there, in Cullman, and are doing quiet well for themselves.
Andalusia and Oneonta are quiet a distance apart. Cullman is just north-west of Oneonta.
Sorry to hear of your experience in Alabama, wish it could have been better.
Thanks---Peabo
Peabo ;
I have always been amazed how often I find others from my home town .
I was raised in Welcome Al.(halfway between Baileyton an Fairview).
What part of Cullman were you from ?
I have no problem with the men who fought to defend their homes as part of the Confederate army, but there is no arguing against the whole of what the Confederates fought for.
The defense of home was one reason - and an honorable one at that. I have no problem with that.
But just as many Germans fought under the swastika for honorable reasons - anti-communism and defense of their homeland - there is a greater whole to be considered. Many Waffen SS units, for example, were never proven to have committed atrocities and, in fact, conducted themselves quite honorably.
But just as the swastika stood for a lot of things, many of them honorable and many of them inhuman, it is hard, if not impossible, to separate the ills the Confederate flag stood for from the honor it upheld.
Do not mistake my historical objectivity for disdain. Was it a racist symbol? Yes. Does that make its supporters or the men who fought under it racist? Of course not.
I would be a hypocrite if I said all those who were Confederate veterans were racist bigots. I have stood up on these forums for blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, conservatives, liberals, and a whole host of others... I would rightfully be called two-faced if I did not stand up for my fellow Southerners.
If anything, the only bigots in the Confederacy were is leaders. As the popular saying went at the time, it was a rich man's war, but a poor man's fight. Poor men, by and large, did not own slaves.
But as the sociopolitical elite called the shots and made slavery an issue (and I refer to the elite on both sides of the conflict), by necessity the side that was for secession as a means of preserving the status quo were for the institution of slavery just as anyone who joined the Chinese PLA in the 1940's was by their participation for the establishment of communism in China.
I would like to reiterate that I do not call those who fought for the Confederacy racist any more than I call all Germans who fought during World War II Nazis or all Israelis Zionists. But there is no room for debate where the colors are concerned because as it was the battle standard for a government that had authorized the use of force to maintain the institution of slavery, it is by definition a racist emblem.
I hope everyone can see the difference in what I am saying and can accept the fact that while I don't care too much for the flag, I care a great deal for the good things for which it stood because the ideals of Southern culture stand alone while the colors of the Confederacy come with too much baggage to ignore.
[/quote]
Peabo ;
I have always been amazed how often I find others from my home town .
I was raised in Welcome Al.(halfway between Baileyton an Fairview).
What part of Cullman were you from ?
[/quote]
Then you must know where Simco is !!!
Do you remember the house with the white wood fence that was/is across the hi-way from the convict camp? The camp/prison is no longer a prison but is still used by the state. We moved into town around 1957 when my mother was diagnosed with cancer and we could no longer keep up with all the farm work.
Peabo ;
I have always been amazed how often I find others from my home town .
I was raised in Welcome Al.(halfway between Baileyton an Fairview).
What part of Cullman were you from ?
[/quote]
Then you must know where Simco is !!!
Do you remember the house with the white wood fence that was/is across the hi-way from the convict camp? The camp/prison is no longer a prison but is still used by the state. We moved into town around 1957 when my mother was diagnosed with cancer and we could no longer keep up with all the farm work.
Small world, isn't it?
Thanks---Peabo
Picked strawberries all around there when I was a kid .
Remember when the prison was still in use .
Saw a lot of interesting things on the chaingangs.
I wonder if some of these guys could believe the racism I (and probably you ) saw back then .
[/quote]
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
as i said i wasn't talking to youSmall wonder; you are afraid to respond to the questions and be seen for what you might be. [:D][:D][:D]
listen hard head i dont care about your questions. i wasnt talking to you. i simply asked the man what race he was as to the reason he felt the way he did about the flag in discussion. for your information i am an applachian american and damn proud of itOoh, of course--that explains it, you're an Appalachian American. You certainly have reason to be proud. BTW, I corrected your spelling of Appalachian.
But why do you think race is a factor? Is it in your case? How about the lack of education or the feeling of being inferior to others as a reason to hang onto this symbol? Those are more valid than what race a person is. IMHO.
quote:Originally posted by peabo
Hairy,
As far as I know, the Yankee's didn't have a 'symbol' to hang on to.
Do I detect a note of jealousy?Thanks---PeaboWe had one prior to the Civil War, had the same one during the Civil War and have the same one now; it's called the Flag of the United States.
Guess what--even southerners pay allegiance to it and not to your symbol. [:D][:D][:D]
Don't need different symbols when you are the victor, only the losers need something to salve their wounded egos. [;)]
I don't really care what you call the flag we are talking about but there are two kinds of people who display it. One group really rubs me the wrong way, they are bigoted and racist. The other never really welcomed me into their social circles, they are still prejudiced but in a different way, thinking their "Southern Culture" is superior. I am somewhat responsible for my feelings because I never tried real hard to fit in, I am who I am and I try to get along but I call them like I see them. I have be "from away" wherever I have lived in this country. Even when I go home to Maine they think I am "from away".
But really I don't like to see the Confederate battle flag or southern cross or whatever it is called. Some good people might fly it but I would not take a chance on any of them.
Comments
Too many fought and died under that flag for us not to honor it. To me it is the second most important flag in the world.
Thank you, Rosie.
quote:State's rights? Yes - the right to own slaves.
have you even read the emancipation proclamation?
slavery wasn't even an issue, it wasn't until around the 4th year of the war, Lincoln declared southern slaves free "if" they joined the war, the war had nothing to do with slavery at all, wasn't even a consideration
correct it didnt free all slaves just ones from confederate states. northners owned slaves also just dont hear about it.later in the war the only way lincon could get some states to send troops for the union was to free slaves.read enough & you see lincon was actualy a white supremest.
Good morning, Hairy. Oversleep?Yes, as a matter of fact. Thanks for checking. [:D][:D]
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the NEw York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone becuae as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people doen here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
MFI,
Thank you for explaining more about your situation in Alabama.
I don't think the Civil War was even thought of when they called you a Yankee. Anyone down here from the North-East, is thought of as a Yankee.
When I was in 7th grade, a mother with four son's move to my home town of Cullman, Alabama. They were from Patchegue, New York, which you may know is on Long Island. (I know, there is quiet a difference in the people from Up-State NY and Long Islanders) Their accent gave them away right away as Yankees. We (I) didn't even think of the Civil War when we called them Yankees !!!
Three of the boys adapted and fit in quiet well, but the other one seemed to have the attitude that he was superior to everyone else in his class. He was never accepted in the neighborhood as 'just one of the boys". He moved away after graduation, never to return. He will not even attend any of the class reunions with the excuse that he -- "has nothing in common with the rest of the class". The other three still live there, in Cullman, and are doing quiet well for themselves.
Andalusia and Oneonta are quiet a distance apart. Cullman is just north-west of Oneonta.
Sorry to hear of your experience in Alabama, wish it could have been better.
Thanks---Peabo
I think at my age I wasnt prepared for things. My experiences have helped me grown up a bit though and since then my life has been excellent except for my battle with cancer which for now I have won. If I had the chance again I would go back and suck it up . I might still be playing where Mr Jeter plays now. Thanks to all .. I hold no grudges..
Good to hear that your battle with cancer is going your way !!
If I were you, I would go back too, but I don't think I would just 'suck it up'. I would tell them " Hell yes, I'm a Yankee and proud of it". Just as we Rebels would say, "Hell yes, I'm a Rebel and damn proud of it".
Thanks---Peabo
I think at my age I wasnt prepared for things. My experiences have helped me grown up a bit though and since then my life has been excellent except for my battle with cancer which for now I have won. If I had the chance again I would go back and suck it up . I might still be playing where Mr Jeter plays now. Thanks to all .. I hold no grudges..
I'm betting that you are far too tough for the cancer MFI! Have a great day.
quote:
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Sorry, but I have to stick my oar in here. Neither flag is a "racist" emblem, in and of itself. Some hate groups choose to use them as such, but that is their problem.
The flag is just as much a part of our history as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag.
The flag of The Confederacy once flew over the ground I live on, therefore it is proper and legal to fly that flag here.
EMM, you're from Kalifornia, aren't you? That might explain your intolerant attitude.
Nunn,
The Nazi flag once flew over Germany. Does that make it an honorable part of their heritage? After all, many Nazis and Germans fought in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS to defend Germany and combat communism without once committing any war crimes.
Now before you accuse me of equating the Confederacy with Nazi Germany, let me note that my point is that there are honorable and laudable causes to be found under any flag. But in any war, there are only two sides and it is all but impossible to decree who on which side deserves to win or lose. For example, Robert E. Lee owned no slaves and was very much a "liberal" in his day and age - but it would have been impossible to say that since he was a good man he should have won while, let's say, a slave-owning general should have lost. War does not discriminate that way.
And so if you choose a side and you fight for it, you fight for it and all it represents whether or not you agree with it 100%.
It is an undeniable historical fact that many, if not all, of the Southern states declared the inferiority of blacks in their secession declarations.
It is also an undeniable fact that the state's rights the Confederate states were fighting over was the state's right to declare the ownership of other human beings legal. There were approximately zero gun control laws back then, so I doubt the 2nd Amendment was the root cause.
So to say that the Confederacy fought for freedom from tyranny is a disingenuous argument at best. If Johnny Reb was indeed fighting for liberty, it was a limited and unequal liberty at best.
I do not understand this fascination with the Confederacy. Yes, the Confederate flag flew over my homeland once upon a time... so did the Spanish flag and the Mexican flag - there's no way in hell I'm giving those flags any deference.
As I said earlier, as it stands, the Confederacy was never given a chance to redefine herself. History never gave her a chance and as such she must by definition remain a racist entity. To attempt to redefine what she stood for is as revisionist as the people who say blacks invented the airplane or the Chinese reached the moon first.
There is no problem with Southern pride and I still consider myself a Texan first and foremost. But if we truly want to promote our sense of and pride in self-sufficiency, independence, and disdain for tyranny, we should adopt any of a number of emblems that espoused freedom for all, not freedom for some.
Yes, there were arguments and disagreements over various issues and economic concerns, but it was the election of a president who had vowed to contain (if not end) slavery that drove the South over the edge and into civil war.
Also, if slavery wasn't the overriding issue of the day, why is it that by agreement every new "free" state admitted to the Union had to be accompanied by the admission of a slave state? Clearly this was the issue on everyone's mind at the time. Note that this is how the Southern states defined themselves, as "slave states."
As for the Confederate flag, it is my understanding that many different flags flew over the Confederacy. IMO all are historical. They symbolize a failed nation. Anyone objecting to the Confederate flag should also object to the American flag as it also symbolizes a nation that once allowed slavery. And some black people do object to the American flag. But IMO this is extremist. Every flag in the world has some symbolic oppression to somebody somewhere.
Too old to live...too young to die...
Your point about the white people's attitude in regards to feeling superior was held throughout much of the civilized world. One does not exact social change with the ease of turning the handle of a faucet. And your "undeniable fact" is representative of the horrors that tyrannical people like Lincoln make in a rich man's world with the lives of the poor, on both sides in this case.
The Confederates fought because Lincoln threatened them with shedding their blood. Just like the Overmountain Men did at King's Mountain when a smartass Scotsman threatened to come across the mountains and destroy them and their settlements. In effect Johnny Reb and the Overmountain Men did most of the bloodletting against the Yanks and the British units, just like what might happen if you threaten to go over and kick your neighbor's *...the opposite might well happen.
One might question your "unequal Liberty" note as well, with the question: Were the almost 700,000 Americans who died in this war worth another, perhaps, another twenty years of "dialogue" in which time slavery might have ended? Such would have resulted in saving the lives of all those men, and the horrors that people had to endure.
Who, EMM, is "fascinated" with the Confederate Flag? My question to you on this note is how can someone, intelligent as you are, strike out against the brave men who died protecting their families and their homeland, from those politicians who threatened to come on their property and spill their blood?
Quite frankly, EMM, no one, not one soul is asking for you to give reverence to the Confederate Flag. As such, please stay the hell out of the South, and show a "smidgen" of the common sense that Senator James Webb has presented to all Americans, by not attempting to reduce the Confederate soldier and their flag to such a simple term as racism - Oh I forgot, you don't honor common sense where reverence is concerned - or where "good hearted" people are concerned either.
The feces that flows from your mouth with the "racist entity" comment is representative of the most vile hate mongers the extreme left can come up with so as to continue their revisionist history. Additionally, your inability to place yourself in a different era so as to understand that, for the most part, poor men fought a rich man's war is indicative of a moron or an Anti-American activist as I see it.
Also, EMM your "freedom for all note" does not hold an ounce of water, considering that slavery thrived under the British Flag and Old Glory for over two hundred years, as compared to less than four years under the flags of the confederacy.
quote:Present day reasonable African-Americans I believe are offended by the so-called confederate flag not because it was the symbol allegedly carried by southern troops marching in Pickett's Charge in1863, but because it was the symbol being held by cheering on-lookers as civil rights marchers were being attacked by police dogs in Selma, Alabama in the 1960s. The so-called confederate flag which reasonable African-Americans find offensive is not the flag carried by Lee's troops at the Battle of Chancellorsville in 1863 but rather the flag hoisted defiantly by George Wallace, Ross Barnett, and Lester Maddox in the 1960s--- a flag which became the symbol for "segregation now and segregation forever". A flag which mysteriously began to appear on certain state flags not immediately after the Civil War, as a commemoration of the deeds of soldiers in gray, but rather in the 1950s--right at the time of the beginning rumblings of the Civil Rights movement.
In short, I have concluded that reasonable African - Americans have every right to be offended by the symbols of a burning cross and a so-called flag that was never even the real flag of the Confederacy, let alone a replica of the banner, that southern patriots fought under during their ill--fated struggle for independence.
So even though I think every one and every state has the right to fly whatever flag they want, why fly a flag that is quite likely to give offense to reasonable fellow citizens and is a flag that has little real historical significance to the armed forces of the Confederacy. Now a flag with appropriate battle honors, and correct shape I think is an entirely different situation. In fact I have 5 confederate flags on my pick-up truck-- the true stars and bars, the Bonnie Blue Flag, and three (3) Hardee Corps pattern battle flag reproductions-- 1st Arkansas, 2nd Tennessee, and 5th Confederate.
Confederate Battle Flag
Confederate Naval Jack
I mostly agree with the point that most people are flying the "wrong" battle flag, but it should be noted that the horizontal design was used by the Army of Tennessee during the last year of the war.
I usually just fly the Bonnie Blue....most people are to stupid to know what it means anyways
I am intolerant of most non-whites, because they are responsible for most of the crimes and most of the evils in this Country.[:(!]
Jeez Earl!
Simmer down!
[:0][:0][:0]
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:
Fine by me... both are racist emblems.
Sorry, but I have to stick my oar in here. Neither flag is a "racist" emblem, in and of itself. Some hate groups choose to use them as such, but that is their problem.
The flag is just as much a part of our history as the "Don't Tread On Me" flag, or the Gonzales "Come And Take It" flag.
The flag of The Confederacy once flew over the ground I live on, therefore it is proper and legal to fly that flag here.
EMM, you're from Kalifornia, aren't you? That might explain your intolerant attitude.
Nunn,
The Nazi flag once flew over Germany. Does that make it an honorable part of their heritage? After all, many Nazis and Germans fought in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS to defend Germany and combat communism without once committing any war crimes.
Now before you accuse me of equating the Confederacy with Nazi Germany, let me note that my point is that there are honorable and laudable causes to be found under any flag. But in any war, there are only two sides and it is all but impossible to decree who on which side deserves to win or lose. For example, Robert E. Lee owned no slaves and was very much a "liberal" in his day and age - but it would have been impossible to say that since he was a good man he should have won while, let's say, a slave-owning general should have lost. War does not discriminate that way.
And so if you choose a side and you fight for it, you fight for it and all it represents whether or not you agree with it 100%.
It is an undeniable historical fact that many, if not all, of the Southern states declared the inferiority of blacks in their secession declarations.
It is also an undeniable fact that the state's rights the Confederate states were fighting over was the state's right to declare the ownership of other human beings legal. There were approximately zero gun control laws back then, so I doubt the 2nd Amendment was the root cause.
So to say that the Confederacy fought for freedom from tyranny is a disingenuous argument at best. If Johnny Reb was indeed fighting for liberty, it was a limited and unequal liberty at best.
I do not understand this fascination with the Confederacy. Yes, the Confederate flag flew over my homeland once upon a time... so did the Spanish flag and the Mexican flag - there's no way in hell I'm giving those flags any deference.
As I said earlier, as it stands, the Confederacy was never given a chance to redefine herself. History never gave her a chance and as such she must by definition remain a racist entity. To attempt to redefine what she stood for is as revisionist as the people who say blacks invented the airplane or the Chinese reached the moon first.
There is no problem with Southern pride and I still consider myself a Texan first and foremost. But if we truly want to promote our sense of and pride in self-sufficiency, independence, and disdain for tyranny, we should adopt any of a number of emblems that espoused freedom for all, not freedom for some.
may i ask your race?
http://www.songofdixie.com/mainpage.htm
Human.
harry i wasn't asking you! i was asking elmuerto monkey
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
Human.
harry i wasn't asking you! i was asking elmuerto monkeyWhy are you asking?
Does a person's ethnic background have a special meaning for white trash rednecks?
Oops, of course it does--as well as one's religious favorite (don't be Catholic or Jewish).
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
Human.
harry i wasn't asking you! i was asking elmuerto monkeyWhy are you asking?
Does a person's ethnic background have a special meaning for white trash rednecks?
Oops, of course it does--as well as one's religious favorite (don't be Catholic or Jewish).
as i said i wasn't talking to you
as i said i wasn't talking to youSmall wonder; you are afraid to respond to the questions and be seen for what you might be. [:D][:D][:D]
I am disappointed,the flag reminds me of Daisy Duke, and not one picture of her has been posted!BTW I'M a REDNECK and will fly whatever flag I choose, isn't this a free world?No, carrie2, it is not a free world but it used to be a free country.
However, you are still entitled to fly your flag. Enjoy. Yee Haw, Dixie! [:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
as i said i wasn't talking to youSmall wonder; you are afraid to respond to the questions and be seen for what you might be. [:D][:D][:D]
listen hard head i dont care about your questions. i wasnt talking to you. i simply asked the man what race he was as to the reason he felt the way he did about the flag in discussion. for your information i am an applachian american and damn proud of it
quote:Originally posted by MFI
I had scholarship opportunities up and down the East coast. I decided to go with the junior college in Alabama because that scholarship was given to me by the minor league pitching coach for the Oneonta Yankees a A ball affiliate with the NEw York Yankees. I guess I had pipe dreams of wearing the pinstripes one day. So off I went to Andalusia , Alabama. I shouldnt say I was hated by everyone becuae as I think back I did have some friends. I was 17 years old a from a farm town here in New York that has a high school that graduates 30 kids. I am as easy going as anyone could be . When I got there they instantly knew I was not a "native" then after they found out I was from New York that was it. I come to find out that all the good ole southern boys in the deep south think if we are from NY then we are from NYC .. Well there is a quite a difference from the Upstaters and the "city slickers" .. I just never felt comfortable in Alabama .. I was called a Yankee and me being quite a sensitive young chap at the time just wasnt ready to fight the civil war again .. Im sorry but my only impression about the south wasnt a good one. My cousin lives in SC now and we visit him from time from time .. He said it took him awhile to be "accepted" but he is doing fine now. His quote to me was "there a quite a few people doen here still upset about what happened 140 years ago..
MFI,
Thank you for explaining more about your situation in Alabama.
I don't think the Civil War was even thought of when they called you a Yankee. Anyone down here from the North-East, is thought of as a Yankee.
When I was in 7th grade, a mother with four son's move to my home town of Cullman, Alabama. They were from Patchegue, New York, which you may know is on Long Island. (I know, there is quiet a difference in the people from Up-State NY and Long Islanders) Their accent gave them away right away as Yankees. We (I) didn't even think of the Civil War when we called them Yankees !!!
Three of the boys adapted and fit in quiet well, but the other one seemed to have the attitude that he was superior to everyone else in his class. He was never accepted in the neighborhood as 'just one of the boys". He moved away after graduation, never to return. He will not even attend any of the class reunions with the excuse that he -- "has nothing in common with the rest of the class". The other three still live there, in Cullman, and are doing quiet well for themselves.
Andalusia and Oneonta are quiet a distance apart. Cullman is just north-west of Oneonta.
Sorry to hear of your experience in Alabama, wish it could have been better.
Thanks---Peabo
Peabo ;
I have always been amazed how often I find others from my home town .
I was raised in Welcome Al.(halfway between Baileyton an Fairview).
What part of Cullman were you from ?
I have no problem with the men who fought to defend their homes as part of the Confederate army, but there is no arguing against the whole of what the Confederates fought for.
The defense of home was one reason - and an honorable one at that. I have no problem with that.
But just as many Germans fought under the swastika for honorable reasons - anti-communism and defense of their homeland - there is a greater whole to be considered. Many Waffen SS units, for example, were never proven to have committed atrocities and, in fact, conducted themselves quite honorably.
But just as the swastika stood for a lot of things, many of them honorable and many of them inhuman, it is hard, if not impossible, to separate the ills the Confederate flag stood for from the honor it upheld.
Do not mistake my historical objectivity for disdain. Was it a racist symbol? Yes. Does that make its supporters or the men who fought under it racist? Of course not.
I would be a hypocrite if I said all those who were Confederate veterans were racist bigots. I have stood up on these forums for blacks, Muslims, Jews, Christians, conservatives, liberals, and a whole host of others... I would rightfully be called two-faced if I did not stand up for my fellow Southerners.
If anything, the only bigots in the Confederacy were is leaders. As the popular saying went at the time, it was a rich man's war, but a poor man's fight. Poor men, by and large, did not own slaves.
But as the sociopolitical elite called the shots and made slavery an issue (and I refer to the elite on both sides of the conflict), by necessity the side that was for secession as a means of preserving the status quo were for the institution of slavery just as anyone who joined the Chinese PLA in the 1940's was by their participation for the establishment of communism in China.
I would like to reiterate that I do not call those who fought for the Confederacy racist any more than I call all Germans who fought during World War II Nazis or all Israelis Zionists. But there is no room for debate where the colors are concerned because as it was the battle standard for a government that had authorized the use of force to maintain the institution of slavery, it is by definition a racist emblem.
I hope everyone can see the difference in what I am saying and can accept the fact that while I don't care too much for the flag, I care a great deal for the good things for which it stood because the ideals of Southern culture stand alone while the colors of the Confederacy come with too much baggage to ignore.
Peabo ;
I have always been amazed how often I find others from my home town .
I was raised in Welcome Al.(halfway between Baileyton an Fairview).
What part of Cullman were you from ?
[/quote]
Then you must know where Simco is !!!
Do you remember the house with the white wood fence that was/is across the hi-way from the convict camp? The camp/prison is no longer a prison but is still used by the state. We moved into town around 1957 when my mother was diagnosed with cancer and we could no longer keep up with all the farm work.
Small world, isn't it?
Thanks---Peabo
Peabo ;
I have always been amazed how often I find others from my home town .
I was raised in Welcome Al.(halfway between Baileyton an Fairview).
What part of Cullman were you from ?
[/quote]
Then you must know where Simco is !!!
Do you remember the house with the white wood fence that was/is across the hi-way from the convict camp? The camp/prison is no longer a prison but is still used by the state. We moved into town around 1957 when my mother was diagnosed with cancer and we could no longer keep up with all the farm work.
Small world, isn't it?
Thanks---Peabo
Picked strawberries all around there when I was a kid .
Remember when the prison was still in use .
Saw a lot of interesting things on the chaingangs.
I wonder if some of these guys could believe the racism I (and probably you ) saw back then .
[/quote]
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
as i said i wasn't talking to youSmall wonder; you are afraid to respond to the questions and be seen for what you might be. [:D][:D][:D]
listen hard head i dont care about your questions. i wasnt talking to you. i simply asked the man what race he was as to the reason he felt the way he did about the flag in discussion. for your information i am an applachian american and damn proud of itOoh, of course--that explains it, you're an Appalachian American. You certainly have reason to be proud. BTW, I corrected your spelling of Appalachian.
But why do you think race is a factor? Is it in your case? How about the lack of education or the feeling of being inferior to others as a reason to hang onto this symbol? Those are more valid than what race a person is. IMHO.
As far as I know, the Yankee's didn't have a 'symbol' to hang on to.
Do I detect a note of jealousy?
Thanks---Peabo
Hairy,
As far as I know, the Yankee's didn't have a 'symbol' to hang on to.
Do I detect a note of jealousy?Thanks---PeaboWe had one prior to the Civil War, had the same one during the Civil War and have the same one now; it's called the Flag of the United States.
Guess what--even southerners pay allegiance to it and not to your symbol. [:D][:D][:D]
Don't need different symbols when you are the victor, only the losers need something to salve their wounded egos. [;)]
But really I don't like to see the Confederate battle flag or southern cross or whatever it is called. Some good people might fly it but I would not take a chance on any of them.