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Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update

1568101115

Comments

  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rec0546
    survey input ....
    mdl 94 s/n: 1595339
    caliber marking: 30 W.C.F.
    butt plate: flat checkered steel
    tang marking: blank
    factory drilled for peep sight: no
    US martial or PCMR: no
    Proof steel marking: yes
    saddle ring: no
    barrel band: milled

    Question: I have a model 12 made in 1940 (serial 824389) that has the "W" stamp below the serial number. Do you think it means the same thing as on the model 94 (factory refinish)?


    Your Model 94 is a 1949 (early part of the year) production carbine, and is completely standard for its vintage.

    In regards to your question about the "W" on your 1940 vintage Model 12, Yes, the "W" means the same thing. I have seen the same "W" stamp on Model 12s, 97s, 64s, 65s, and 94s, and I am sure there are a few more models that might have it as well.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • ih8chromeih8chrome Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi everybody My uncle left me his model 64 30wcf. I think its from the mid 1950's. Is there anything I can do about rust and minor pitting? How can I find out if is the deluxe? This rifle means a lot to me and I want to bring it back to it's former glory. Thanks for your help SN 1371217 before i forget on the barrel above the factory mark there is a little "post" with the word "marble" on it. What is this for?
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ih8chrome
    Hi everybody My uncle left me his model 64 30wcf. I think its from the mid 1950's. Is there anything I can do about rust and minor pitting? How can I find out if is the deluxe? This rifle means a lot to me and I want to bring it back to it's former glory. Thanks for your help SN 1371217 before i forget on the barrel above the factory mark there is a little "post" with the word "marble" on it. What is this for?


    Hello,

    The serial number on your Model 64 indicates that it is a 1946 vintage gun. If you can post (or send me) pictures of it, I can very quickly identify which variation it is, and also answer any other questions you may have about it.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • Tom Lee ATom Lee A Member Posts: 264 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert,

    I have a Model 94 30 WCF carbine that has the nickle barrel and saddle ring. The serial number is #8998xx. The butt plate is the steel one. Would you tell me when this rifle was built?

    Also, the rear site is not original. Do you know of a source that would have the correct site available? The stock is a dark color and it appears that someone tried an amateur job of refinishing. I'm not in the market to sell it, so the stock is not a big deal to me as far as ruining the resale value. I would like to get it back to the original as far as the sight goes though.

    Thanks for any info you have.

    Tom
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Tom Lee A
    Hi Bert,

    I have a Model 94 30 WCF carbine that has the nickle barrel and saddle ring. The serial number is #8998xx. The butt plate is the steel one. Would you tell me when this rifle was built?

    Also, the rear site is not original. Do you know of a source that would have the correct site available? The stock is a dark color and it appears that someone tried an amateur job of refinishing. I'm not in the market to sell it, so the stock is not a big deal to me as far as ruining the resale value. I would like to get it back to the original as far as the sight goes though.

    Thanks for any info you have.

    Tom



    Early in the month of May, 1920. The correct sight is the Carbine (ladder style). If you can not find one here on Gunbroker, give these guys a call - http://www.tapaderaswinchesters.com/

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • zinkzink Member Posts: 6,456 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Got one for ya, Bert,

    I know it wasn't sent this way but here she goes;

    Ser # 26721 (the 2nd 2 is upside down, same style)
    BBL is octogon 21 3/4"
    3/4 mag
    long rifle type forend w/tip
    folding sight with slide bar
    no saddle ring
    30 WCF, marked on top flat infront of receiver
    Only markings under barrel are- .NS. VP (in oval) 94 and a star.
    Tang is marked-

    Model 1894
    -WINCHESTER-
    PAT AUG 21, 1894

    Lance
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by zink
    Got one for ya, Bert,

    I know it wasn't sent this way but here she goes;

    Ser # 26721 (the 2nd 2 is upside down, same style)
    BBL is octogon 21 3/4"
    3/4 mag
    long rifle type forend w/tip
    folding sight with slide bar
    no saddle ring
    30 WCF, marked on top flat infront of receiver
    Only markings under barrel are- .NS. VP (in oval) 94 and a star.
    Tang is marked-

    Model 1894
    -WINCHESTER-
    PAT AUG 21, 1894

    Lance


    Can you send me a picture of the serial number?

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • zinkzink Member Posts: 6,456 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    quote:Originally posted by zink
    Got one for ya, Bert,

    I know it wasn't sent this way but here she goes;

    Ser # 26721 (the 2nd 2 is upside down, same style)
    BBL is octogon 21 3/4"
    3/4 mag
    long rifle type forend w/tip
    folding sight with slide bar
    no saddle ring
    30 WCF, marked on top flat infront of receiver
    Only markings under barrel are- .NS. VP (in oval) 94 and a star.
    Tang is marked-

    Model 1894
    -WINCHESTER-
    PAT AUG 21, 1894

    Lance


    Can you send me a picture of the serial number?


    It is at work. I will try to get it to you Saturday.

    Lance
  • scout32flcscout32flc Member Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert
    I sent an email to your MSN account with pics. Are you the one That looked at my gun last night through a collector site
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by scout32flc
    Bert
    I sent an email to your MSN account with pics. Are you the one That looked at my gun last night through a collector site


    Do you own the Model 55 that was your great grandfather's?

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    1. 1,117,214
    2. Mine is stamped from left to right
    -"winchester (over) proof steel"- MODEL 94- WINCHESTER (over) -trade mark--30 w.c.f
    3. Serrated steel butt plate as seen in your picture
    4. Type 7
    5. No
    6. No
    7. Yes "proof steel"
    8. No
    9-14 N/A
    Although there is an "A" stamped on the bottom of the receiver inside the trigger guard/loop just in front of the trigger

    Mine also has a milled barrel band as seen in your pictures

    Bert Any Idea of date of manuf and approximate value?
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
    1. 1,117,214
    2. Mine is stamped from left to right
    -"winchester (over) proof steel"- MODEL 94- WINCHESTER (over) -trade mark--30 w.c.f
    3. Serrated steel butt plate as seen in your picture
    4. Type 7
    5. No
    6. No
    7. Yes "proof steel"
    8. No
    9-14 N/A
    Although there is an "A" stamped on the bottom of the receiver inside the trigger guard/loop just in front of the trigger

    Mine also has a milled barrel band as seen in your pictures

    Bert Any Idea of date of manuf and approximate value?


    The date of manufacture is easy... October 1936. You listed it as having a Type-7 upper tang stamp, but that is not possible (based on when it was manufactured). It should have the Type-6 marking (with the dashes preceeding and following the text on the second and third lines).

    As for the value, I really need to see the gun (or good quality pictures of it). If possible, please start a new topic on the Experts forum, and post the pictures there. Or, you can send pictures to me directly at Win1885@msn.com

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    It should have the Type-6 marking (with the dashes preceeding and following the text on the second and third lines).
    IMG_0210.jpg
    IMG_0211.jpg
    IMG_0212.jpg

    WHEN I GET SOME BETTER PICTURES I WILL START A NEW THREAD

    THANKS

    CLINT
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, I see what the issus is... you originally listed the serial number as "1117214" when in fact it is "1177214"... that 60,000 difference makes a big difference[:0].

    Serial 1177214 was manufactured in May of 1938, and it is correct with the Type-7 tang stamp.

    It appears that there is no finish remaining on the receiver frame, but the rest of the gun looks very good.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • foooootzfoooootz Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert,

    My grandfather passed along this Model 94, .30 W.C.F. and I figured I would see what info I could find out about it.

    1. 205357
    2. .30 W.C.F.
    3 Carbine Butt Plate
    4. Based on the pictures I think it's a Type 5

    Not sure about the rest except that there is no saddle ring. Thanks
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by foooootz
    Bert,

    My grandfather passed along this Model 94, .30 W.C.F. and I figured I would see what info I could find out about it.

    1. 205357
    2. .30 W.C.F.
    3 Carbine Butt Plate
    4. Based on the pictures I think it's a Type 5

    Not sure about the rest except that there is no saddle ring. Thanks


    Something is not correct... serial number 205357 was manufactured very early in the year 1904, and as such, it should have a Type-1A tang stamp. It should also be a saddle ring carbine. Can you post a few pictures of it?

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • foooootzfoooootz Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, I mistakenly assumed that you had a Carbine... instead, it is a Sporting Rifle. A few questions for you;

    1. What is the barrel length? (standard was 26")
    2. Can you post a picture of the rear sight?

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • drl50drl50 Member Posts: 2,496
    edited November -1
    See you've been on this interesting project awhile.Don't know if you need more data, but here's a Mod 64 for your list.

    1554358
    -MODEL 64-32W.S.-
    Butt: Checkered steel(widows peak same as 70 and 71)
    Blank tang
    factory drilled-yes
    N/A No martial or PCMR marking
    -WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL-
    N/A No ring
    band N/A
    Deer Rifle w/checker, detach swivels etc
    DV stamp just forward of trigger
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by drl50
    See you've been on this interesting project awhile.Don't know if you need more data, but here's a Mod 64 for your list.

    1554358
    -MODEL 64-32W.S.-
    Butt: Checkered steel(widows peak same as 70 and 71)
    Blank tang
    factory drilled-yes
    N/A No martial or PCMR marking
    -WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL-
    N/A No ring
    band N/A
    Deer Rifle w/checker, detach swivels etc
    DV stamp just forward of trigger



    Hello drl50,

    Yes, it is an interesting project, and YES, I still very much need more data[:p].

    Based on the information that I have compiled thus far, this is what I can tell you about your Model 64;

    (1) It was manufactured very late in the year 1948 (most likely in November). It will have a "48" date marked on the bottom of the barrel (under the forend stock).

    (2) It is the 354th Model 64 I have surveyed thus far, and the 80th one that is a Deer Rifle.

    (3) It is the 90th Model 64 in caliber 32 W.S. that I have surveyed (slightly more than 25% were made in this caliber).

    If you (or anyone else) has additional questions or information they would like to contribute, please let me know.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • checkerman1checkerman1 Member Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    bert,,have 3 64's ,

    md-64 deluxe ser.# 1582637,30W.C.F.,rec.drilled,chkrd.stl.wdows pk. butt
    md 64dlx. ser.# 1761090,32 WIN. SPL.- rec-drld. same butt as above,

    md.64 std. ser#1660965,32 W.S.-rec.drld. same butt,proof steel,no tang mark on all three,and all 3 are proof steel,

    Hope this helps some,
    rich
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by checkerman1
    bert,,have 3 64's ,

    md-64 deluxe ser.# 1582637,30W.C.F.,rec.drilled,chkrd.stl.wdows pk. butt
    md 64dlx. ser.# 1761090,32 WIN. SPL.- rec-drld. same butt as above,

    md.64 std. ser#1660965,32 W.S.-rec.drld. same butt,proof steel,no tang mark on all three,and all 3 are proof steel,

    Hope this helps some,
    rich


    Hello Rich,

    Thank you very for posting the information on your Model 64s, and Yes indeed, it helps a lot[:)]

    1. Serial 1582637 is a 1949 vintage
    2. Serial 1660965 is a 1950 vintage
    3. Serial 1761090 is a 1951 vintage

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, Have another 1894 here. This is my best one I just acquired. Came from the "B" collection recently sold. A high dollar gun. Ser# 287209 (letterable) Deer rifle, Deluxe, 26" full oct barrel, Double set triggers, Take down, Front site Lyman flip up hooded peep type, rear barrel site std marbles ramp type, Tang site Lyman #2 with the little flip out peep site, Cal 32W.S. Deluxe burl wood factory checkered stocks. Pistol grip, Finish 95% with 50% case color remaining in the lever. Finish all original triggers function perfect, bore very good or better.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello Kyle,

    If you have not lettered it, you should. Please let me know what the received in warehouse date was whne you get the letter.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, I plan to. If I understand it correctly there were only 118 TD rifles made of the first 350,000. Is that correct? Kyle
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kylew
    Bert, I plan to. If I understand it correctly there were only 118 TD rifles made of the first 350,000. Is that correct? Kyle


    No, that is not correct. Please refer to my Sticky post about the Model 1894... nearly 27,000 Take Down Rifles were made in the first 353,999 Model 1894s manufactured. The (118) number is only those that are listed as having a second factory supplied barrel assembly.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • mrfixit65mrfixit65 Member Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Model 94
    1335063
    94-32W.S.
    Serrated steel
    type 7
    Not drilled
    Milled band

    Model 1894 sporting
    286670
    full Octagon
    full magazine
    32W.S.
    Nickel steel Barrel
    drilled for lyman's sight , marked Lyman's Pat.JUNE 25,95
    rear sight missing
    June
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mrfixit65
    Model 94
    1335063
    94-32W.S.
    Serrated steel
    type 7
    Not drilled
    Milled band

    Model 1894 sporting
    286670
    full Octagon
    full magazine
    32W.S.
    Nickel steel Barrel
    drilled for lyman's sight , marked Lyman's Pat.JUNE 25,95
    rear sight missing
    June


    Serial 1335063 is a May 1942 vintage gun, and it is completely standard.

    Serial 286670 is a standard Sporting Rifle, manufactured in late 1905 (November).

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, Regarding the 94 listed a few posts up.. Ser #287209 Friend was in Denver last week. He checked with the lady from Cody who was there. Had her laptop and found the following. Of course is not a factory letter but she did confirm the following. Ship date 1-15-08 and order # R&R on 11-8-15 and order # Confirms all of the special features Butt listed as SBR correct, barrel correct, double set correct, stock CS and PG correct, takedown correct. This little 94 is getting better FYI Finish org 95%+ Kyle
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello Kyle,

    It appears you have a true winner... all of those special order features add serious $$$ to the collector value. If you are able, I would appreciate seeing pictures of it sometime.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, I will work on it. I've never done that before. My son will help an old guy give it a go. Thanks Kyle
  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert in the mean time, Here is one that is in the middle where you are looking. Ser #1223251 Std carbine, 30 W.C.F., serrated butt plate, milled bands, no drilling, sites look std, I look at the post to give you the tang type. Blue book says 42 but I think you will say 39 DOM. My friend will be at the show in Cody in a few weeks. He will look for another "holder" for me. I want a "war" gun. Kyle
  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Opps, forgot It does have the W. Kyle
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kylew
    Bert in the mean time, Here is one that is in the middle where you are looking. Ser #1223251 Std carbine, 30 W.C.F., serrated butt plate, milled bands, no drilling, sites look std, I look at the post to give you the tang type. Blue book says 42 but I think you will say 39 DOM. My friend will be at the show in Cody in a few weeks. He will look for another "holder" for me. I want a "war" gun. Kyle


    Hello Kyle,

    Thanks for the new data[:)]

    Serial number 1223251 went through the Polishing room in March of 1940, and it should have the Type-7 upper tang stamp.

    In order to have a "War" gun (I assume you mean WW II), you will need to find one in the 1303819 - 1352066 serial range (December 1st, 1941 - December 29th, 1945)

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, First- Yes it has a type 7 tang mark. As far as the "War" guns go I have a couple from the WW1 years a couple from Korea and one from Vietnam years. Since WW2 generally is thought to have started on 8 Dec. 41 and ended on 9 Sept 45. I have kinda figured that the range would be from 1,305,000 to 1,345,000. Isn't 40,000 about the right number produced? And wasn't most of these made for the civilian guards- the one who watched our coasts for U boats and Japanese subs? I have read that these civilians were to shoot at any periscope spotted off the coast. I do know that the Japanese had big plans to launch chemical weapons on Washington DC and NYC. They had built several subs that carried 3 planes each the I-400 and I-401 were a couple of these. They were in route to the East coast when we bombed Japan. Kyle
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kylew
    Bert, First- Yes it has a type 7 tang mark. As far as the "War" guns go I have a couple from the WW1 years a couple from Korea and one from Vietnam years. Since WW2 generally is thought to have started on 8 Dec. 41 and ended on 9 Sept 45. I have kinda figured that the range would be from 1,305,000 to 1,345,000. Isn't 40,000 about the right number produced? And wasn't most of these made for the civilian guards- the one who watched our coasts for U boats and Japanese subs? I have read that these civilians were to shoot at any periscope spotted off the coast. I do know that the Japanese had big plans to launch chemical weapons on Washington DC and NYC. They had built several subs that carried 3 planes each the I-400 and I-401 were a couple of these. They were in route to the East coast when we bombed Japan. Kyle


    Hello Kyle,

    Given the time period you specify, the serial range you want to search for is 1303818 - 1343510 (December 1st, 1942 - September 28th, 1945).

    Yes, 40,000 is very close to the number made during WW II, but very few of them were made for, or used by, civilian guard units. The only known WW II Model 94s that were specifically made for such use were the 2,500 that were ordered and delivered to the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers (P.C.M.R.) in the Candian Province of British Columbia. Those guns were all made and delivered in 1942 (serial number range 1317167 - 1342533).

    During the WW II years, the bulk of the 40,000 guns were made in 1942 (29,882). That said, 1943 was the only year in which there was a Zero production number. In 1944, just (13) were made, all in November. Regular production resumed in June of 1945 at serial number 1343197, and ended with serial number 1352066 on December 29th, 1945.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • rockscramblerrockscrambler Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    i aquired 1 several years ago the serial# starts w a 5 i know for sure i think it is 7 digits i'll check when i get home. if it is do you still want the rest of the info or is it not usefull info to you
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rockscrambler
    i aquired 1 several years ago the serial# starts w a 5 i know for sure i think it is 7 digits i'll check when i get home. if it is do you still want the rest of the info or is it not usefull info to you


    Hello,

    If the serial number is 5,000,000+, then no, it is not useful to my survey. Thanks for asking though.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • kylewkylew Member Posts: 95 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, I have a new one in my lap that may interest you. Model 1894 32WS Ser# 107731. You have this gun listed in your "facts" list. According to the factory letter and other info this gun was the very first gun made in that cal. Ship date 10-5-01. This gun is a "test" gun. Is was "Taken to Mr Wheeler for excessive testing" R&R in 06 and again in 14. I know that by ser# you have 27,158 listed as the first but it was shipped almost 2 years later than this one. I have additional info. Tell me what you think. I would guess that you have layed your eyes on this gun before. Kyle
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello Kyle,

    Did you recently buy that rifle from Russ? I am in Cody, WY as I write this, and will be in the research office for several hours tomorrow (Thursday).

    I would like any additional information available, and yes, I did see the rifle a few years ago.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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