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Would you fight?

trstonetrstone Member Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭
Okay....Let's get down to where the short hairs grow.

Simple question: Suppose the Feds decided to go British on us, and said "No more firearms, period. Turn them all in, or we'll confiscate them." Would you turn them in, or, when they came to your door, would you fight? And by "fight" I mean exactly that---gun in hand, willing and ready to shoot. Not some legal wrangling in the fixed courts which would naturally side with the Feds.

I don't want to hear any theoretical or philosophical discussions about "how it couldn't happen" or "the Government could never do that anyway" or "it's a silly question because (whatever)"; I want to get an idea as to what fraction of the gun-owning population would be willing to go all the way if faced with the BATF Brownshirts hammering on their door and saying "Hand it over, peasant." I was inspired to this line of inquiry after hearing that, in a poll of U.S. soldiers, more than 25% said they'd be perfectly willing to shoot American civilians if ordered by their officers to do so....
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Comments

  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    I've been saying that about the military all along.While I respect them and what they do,there are those who will do as you say at the end of your post.Would I fight?With my last breath!!!!!!!!I hope when it all came down to it most of us would.That is however a fantasy by itself.....most would not give up their comfortable life,family,material possesians etc. for anything.It is said but true.Even in the original Revolution it was a few that did most,comparativly speaking....I believe that the percentage now would,alas,be even less....[V]L.H.
  • spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm thinking that a number of people who would answer in the affirmative would be serving a glorious fantasy of dissent and rebellion rather than any practical consideration.

    I have no family which I must protect and care for, nor a lover whom I cherish; yet I'm hesitant to respond to such a hypothetical question. I love my rights and would like to say that I would die for them, but it would be disrespectful of those who have died in defense of said-rights to presume my own untested resolve.

    Typos and profanity, oh my! http://www.funky-town.org
  • trstonetrstone Member Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'll take that as a "no", Specter. Thanks for an honest answer---that's what I'm looking for.
  • BigBubbaBigBubba Member Posts: 171 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I know I'm too new here to express my opinion on such a topic, but here goes.

    Warning: This may not be a very popular idea.

    It depends on whatever other rights were being denied. I love my guns and cherish my right to own them, but as for fighting, defined as killing other human beings and risking being killed myself, over them and them alone, seems a bit foolhardy. However, if the government decided to throw out the other "Top Ten" amendments and started jailing us for speaking our minds, began total control and censorship of all mediums of communication, padlocked all churches except those teaching an "approved" doctrine, denied the right to peaceably assemble, began unwarranted random searches of homes and vehicles, and denied the right of trial by jury, then, with a heavy heart and a burning need to know "what went wrong?", I woul be forced to defend my home and family, and try to set things back right. I'm not looking forward to such an event, though, by no means. I hope and pray that it never happens.

    As for our military, I have deep respect for them and all they do. The end of trstone's post is a bit disturbing, but I have a feeling that when it came time to actually pull the trigger, the 25% may become considerably smaller.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    BigBubba,I think that when push comes to shove that you may actually find the no. larger.I hate to think that ,and hope that I am wrong,However Unfortunatly I do not believe that I am.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If, and when that should happen, will it be the military knocking on your door? I doubt it. I believe it will be local law enforcement (those who would do so, anyway) and the Bureau of Jack Booted Thugs who come. Our military will be busy policing the rest of the world.

    By this time, you have two choices. Fight, or become a slave. Will never choice to be a slave. I'd rather die, first...

    ..but I won't be answering my door with a gun in hand. The guns, and I, will no longer be there. Keep looking....

    Death to Tyrants!!! Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Well put gunphreak! I hope to be long gone as well.....
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    To address BigBubba's qualifications. The guns must go first, then all the others are up for grabs. To quote one of my favorite songs, "Run to the hills, Run for your lives...."
  • nitrouznitrouz Member Posts: 1,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The U.S. military has many a folk whom will do whatever the brass says to try to get promoted. They care not about rights or the freedoms our forfathers envisioned.

    I have many examples to prove it.

    The U.S. military has stooped in recent years to disarm it's own soldiers at home in light of political correctiveness.

    20-redcoats-firing.gif
    American's Right to bear arm's is the only reason we're here today.
  • 625625 Member Posts: 125 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Until I pulled the trigger in combat, I honestly didn't know what I would do when faced with the decision to shoot or not. Until an individual has been faced with your situation, I don't think he/she can give an accurate answer. Making holes in paper or animals is one thing.....holes in people is altogether different.

    hammering on my door is not a good idea.......for any reason

    take that as a "yes"

    "For those who fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."

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  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,367 ******
    edited November -1
    The apathy of the civilian population is sickening. We can not even get them, to get out of their lazy chairs, long enough to VOTE. I think most would go along with whatever came down the line. They would accept just about anything, as long as they could keep their satellite TV, margaritas, and SUVs. Look at the rights and freedoms that have already been lost. (example: patriot act) How many are up in arms about that? Sad to say, only a few.

    Yes, a percentage of the military, as well as any local law enforcement, would certainly gun down citizens. I hate to say it but, I am afraid there would be many that "would" do it. Some others would refuse such an order, go home, bar the door, then lock and load.

    Picture this. Down the street, the swat team arrives. Tires squealing, guns drawn, they surround the house. You know that a while back, they passed a new law, saying you have to turn in your firearms. "At this time" you have no idea why they are down the street. They may be going after bank robbers, murderers, or any other such ilk. Not knowing why they are there, are you going to grab your guns, and go fight the swat team? After a brief firefight, some body bags, and some cleanup, they come to YOUR house. They want your guns. Are your neighbors going to come and help fight the swat team with you?

    I do not think it will come to that. The government does not want armed confrontation. They will take the guns from the sheeple that turn them in, after the law is passed. Then wait for any remaining guns to turn up, for whatever reason, and get them then. Look at other countries. Some that have "recently" outlawed guns, Australia comes to mind. There are no jack booted thugs, going around shooting civilians, to get their guns. There will always be some guns that will never be found.

    As for me personally? I have lived what I consider to be a fairly long life already. There are certainly more years behind me than in front of me. I have enjoyed the few freedoms that I have had. I would like to think that if the situation you describe, should ever occur, I would be willing to stand up for what I believe in. I do not think I would want to live in the kind of world that some aspire to make. Once they take your guns, you would have no way to protect yourself, against the loss, of any of your other rights.

    With all the ways there is to die, I do not think that fighting for your rights/beliefs would be a bad way to go. I am already in the hills, so there is no place to run. Besides, this old body quit sleeping on the ground YEARS ago. But to be completely honest, I would have to be put into that scenario to know the "true" answer.

    Sorry for rambling on.

    Trstone;
    How about you? Would you fight?


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • trstonetrstone Member Posts: 833 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    After sober consideration, I'd have to say:

    You're damned right I would.

    Why? you may ask.

    Why NOT? I would say back.

    Why do we even HAVE a Second Amendment? What the hell was it intended to do? What were the Founding Fathers thinking when they drafted it? Could it have something to do with ARMED RESISTANCE against Government abuses of the natural rights of the people? Oh, no. I must have misunderstood this. The FF's must have simply intended that we should keep guns around in case we needed some fresh meat, or in case Yogi and Boo-Boo decided to knock down the ol' cabin door and chew our legs off. Dopey me.

    Here, I honestly thought that my fast-fading "right" to "keep and bear arms" (now only as long as Caesar gives his royal approval as to how and when and what kind---IF any at all) stemmed from a tradition of personal freedom and a suspicion of Government encroachment upon that personal freedom. Maybe I'm wrong in my conception.

    I think that when the time comes---NOT "if"---the Feds will have an easy time of collecting up all the guns and turning the laughably-named "Land of the Free" into "Britain v2.0".

    All I want to do is live my life quietly, go target-shooting now and then, and be free from Government intrusions in said life. I'm not a criminal, or a violent person, but I'm human enough to bitterly resent it when I have to jump through hoops to do something simple like own a pistol inside the city limits or buy a frigging rifle, where I have to fill out a stupid form that tells the Feds everything about what I bought, and when, and where I live, and so on and so on, because I don't think that that's any of their business. But I follow the rules like a good little robot, and what do I see? More laws. More restrictions. More intrusions. It seems like it won't ever end, though I suspect it CAN "end"--but in only one way--and I don't see any way of stopping it.

    Short of fighting, that is.

    Gee, fat lot of good THAT'LL do, huh? Me and fifteen other guys...
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    eggzactly! You won't BE alone,but close to it.If its ANY consolation,I will be also........won't help much but maybe someone would see.....maybe.....we can only hope.....and pray..
  • ruger270manruger270man Member Posts: 9,361
    edited November -1
    It wouldnt just "happen" one day. They have to gradually move into no guns, thats what these liberals are trying to do. If tomorrow, they said "guns are illegal, its been signed, everyone turn in their guns" there would be a huge uprising against the government, widespread havoc and chaos, looting, gathering of militias and militant anti-government groups.

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  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kind of what I'm hoping for Ruger, but I know I'd be wishing in one hand....

    Death to Tyrants!!! Lev 26:14-39

    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
  • BigBubbaBigBubba Member Posts: 171 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ruger hit the nail on the head.

    If they really want to disarm us, they'll do it one little baby step at a time. (Remember, you eat an elephant one bite at a time). Those who would try to disarm us aren't stupid. Evil, maybe, but definately not stupid. They know as well as we do that just waking up one day and announcing "All guns are now banned. All American civilians have 72 hours to turn them in or we will begin raids to take them." would result a massive uprising across the country. So...

    They simply pass legislation one bill at a time, one type of gun at a time, until we are disarmed to a certain point, we no longer have anything left with which to fight, or we decide ("we" is the American people in general) that owning a gun is more trouble than it's worth and disarm ourselves.

    The first gun control legislation in the USA was against automatic weapons.
    The next legislation, passed in some states, concerned handguns.
    The third legislation passed by the Federal government, restricted semi-automatic rifles.

    The next legislation will concern???


    P.S. jpwolf, I think I understand now. Without our guns, they could more or less take our other rights at their leisure. Waiting for the other rights to go first is kinda like saying "I'm not going to try to stop the thief when he's breaking in my window, I'm going to wait until he has my property before I try."
  • savage303savage303 Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    trstone,
    You brought up a good question. I can tell you from first hand experience, this happend to my family long time ago in another country. Almost overnight we had to give up our family gun collection to a democratically elected government. No body wanted to fight with those old english doubles, flint locks, percussions and single shotguns. What did the goverment do with the our family collection of over sixty guns? Destroyed everthing with steam rollers running over it. I still cannot get over why they could not sell/export those beatiful guns to at least to another country like USA!! Politician do insane things in the name of politics!
    Well now only the criminals have illeagal weapons, and rapes, robberies,murders have sky rocketed in that country.
    -Dk
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    savage303: What country are you referring to? Just curious.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • savage303savage303 Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    trstone,
    The country is a small island known as Ceylon, a former British Colony.
    -dk
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Uh...Savage303,..if you want to call me trstone I guess that is ok, but thanks for the info about the country you were referring to. Interesting.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • savage303savage303 Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr fox,
    Oooops!! Pardon my ignorance! I guess I just looked at the the first two letters. After all it's friday!
    [:)]-dk
  • flat8flat8 Member Posts: 887 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "When an opponent declares, `I will not come over to your side,` I calmly say: `Your child belongs to us already . . . What are you? You will pass on. Your descendents, however, now stand in this new camp. In a short time, they will know nothing else but this new community.`" ~ Adolph Hitler, 1933.

    They will come for the guns . . they are just not ready yet. It will happen in time - when the current generation is adequately on thier side. Just look at what is happening today - when a child is taught that guns are evil, that guns should never be looked at, spoken of, or alluded to; when programs such as "A.S.K." use children as a tool for privacy invasion, when a child is sent to the school psychiatrist for pointing his finger and yelling "BANG!" while playing cops and robbers in the schoolyard, when American children are shown on a U.N. video entitled "Armed to the Teeth" reciting a pledge "never touch a weapon"; and finally when the young are taught that NOBODY except for a police officer should be in possesion of a firearm, the ball has been set into motion.

    As for me, although I am currently a resident of a NYC - a city presided over by Chuck Schumer and Hillary - I spend a great deal of time in the hills. When it comes to confiscation that's where I will be - and I will never give up freedom in the name of safety, as doing so would make me unworthy of both.
  • C. O .WC. O .W Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You have three choices 1. Turn them in. 2. Stand and fight 3. Run away ( with weapons in hand ) to fight another day.
    I chose #3, I listened when my brother talked about Vietnam. Put on the black pajamas, its showtime.
  • 2gun2gun Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i think you are all missing the basic point. soldiers follow orders, so do police.

    now on to the confiscartion of guns.look to new jersey as the example of preventing new ownership by making it as dificult as possible. you want to buy a rifle, great , you need a permit to purchase a firearm, that will cost you some and will take a while to get done. or nyc with handguns take a day off work , come to 1 pp and fill out the application then go wait 9 months, take another day off,come back to 1pp and pick up your permit and authorization to purchase. you have 30 days to get an endorsement(buy a gun) bring it back to one pp if you dont have the fired shell, another day off work. you get the idea. in most urban areas unless you have a strong commitment to firearms,its a hassle.

    look to cali for the outright ban of whole classes of firearms based on looks, the feds have already done so. we are just happy that they threw us a crumb and said that we could keep what we already have.lets face reality , our founding fathers diddnt give us a right to own fireams so the deer would not feel safe a few months out of the year. we were supposed to not have a standing army and the citizen was supposed to have access to military weapons. we lost that battle with the passsage of nfa laws and the acceptance that we would no longer be on par with the governement troops. as more and more people accept that some power will watch over them and keep them safe. they believe that only criminals would want guns that they werent meant for deer or magazines that werent meant for the hunt.if you want to own(not even) state of the art full auto weapons you need to pay through the nose and live in a state that agrres to let you still have that right.

    the battle was lost because it was waged in the court of public opinion and we have no enemies at our gates, we have no revolutions so we must be kooks & wackos talking about fighting the government. why we are the very reason why they need to get rid of these bad weapons, were talking about resisting the government!!

    there are fewer and fewer of us who believe that the right is what it says"keep and bear arms" even the nra agrees to limit magazine size and registration is ok.

    the only real hope is the courts but i doubt they will broadly examine the second amendment as it is a hornets nest. but if they did they could very well find the same twisted logic acceptable as has been used in the past to restrict it as a collective right in spite of the fact that the rest are individual rights and then the knocks would come.on that day those who fight woould be branded criminals as much as those who rob banks and standing one by one in our own homes it would be a death sentence and no heros death against dozens of swat team members. if you fight and get away you wont get any sympanthy when they show the crying police widows and orphans you killed to get away, americas most wanted will feature you as a crazed cop killer and a jury will convict if they catch you alive.where will you hide, in the mountains during winter by yourself trusting noone?its an ugly picture but its reality.

    i wont die a stupid death, i wont give up my guns eithe. they will be sold lost or stolen and i am willing to be a prisoner of consience over that right i have as a free man even if they are hidden and useless to me while i cant get to them i will not turn them over.just as press people are willing to sit for not divulging their sources i will not divulge where my weapons are. i think this is a far better approach as it puts on an equal footing with civil right people and the first amendment approach.

    i dont really believe they will ban guns, they will let us keep the guns, they will close down the ranges and require ammunition be bought only from licensed vendors who will only sell you limited quantities of ammo. eventually all the guns will be wall hangers and we will have right toi keep and bear wallhangers.



    happiness is a warm gun, preferably preban
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    2gun: although you are almost a bad a speller as I am, what you posted indicated to me that you have given some very long, hard and very intelligent thinking about all this. The only hope I can think of is that the majority of states allow concealed carry. Surely those millions of concealed carry holders will at some point join together and fight the political pressure against banning guns. Those concealed carry holders have spent time and money to get that carry permit and I assume they will become very accustomed to the idea of their carry right and this may be the only single factor that will finally cause a large number of gun owners to work together to save our gun rights. Because we sure aren't working together now.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • tapwatertapwater Member Posts: 11,162
    edited November -1
    Like some have said, there is no way to know how we will react until we are put against the wall. But turning them in?? Not bloody likely. Pick up and run, or make a stand on the homefront[?][?]If you stand and fight, they will overcome you with numbers. So....I guess the thing to do is hit the hills and let them be the hunters.

    The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    tapwater: that is so funny (because it is depressingly true)about the second mouse. Did you make that up?

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,969 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I THINK BIGBUBBA JUST GOT IT. THE 2ND AMENDMENT GUARANTEES ALL THE REST. WITHOUT IT THE BILL OF RIGHTS ARE TOILET PAPER. THE FEDERALIST PAPERS CLEARLY DEFINED THE REASON FOR THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. TO MY KNOWLEDGE THE N.R.A. HAS NEVER CHALLENGED THIS IN THE SUPREME COURT. WHY? MAYBE THEY WOULD BE OUT OF A JOB IF THEY WON? I DON'T KNOW. UNTIL THEN, THE SOCIALIST LEFT WILL KILL IT PIECE BY PIECE UNTIL IT IS GONE. THEN THE REST ARE NO PROBLEM.HISTORY TENDS TO SHOW THAT A TRUE DEMOCRACY LASTS ABOUT 200 YEARS BEFORE IT DECAYS TO A POINT WHERE A DICTATOR TAKES OVER BY POPULAR DEMAND. I THINK THE AUTHORS OF OUR CONSTITUTION KNEW THIS AND SAW THE FUTURE WELL ENOUGH TO MAKE THE 2ND AMENDMENT CLEAR IN IT'S PURPOSE. IT'S PURPOSE? FOR THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN TO PROTECT HIMSELF AND HIS COUNTRY FROM ALL ENEMIES FORIEGN AND "DOMESTIC". TO ANSWER THE QUESTION; YES, I WILL DEFEND MYSELF AND MY COUNTRY FROM BOTH, BE IT IN THE POLLING BOOTH OR WITH A GUN IN MY HOME.I INSTILL THESE VALUES IN MY SONS SO THAT THEY WILL BELONG TO NO ONE BUT THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY ARE OUR FUTURE.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    trapp55: I like what you are saying and I agree with you. But I am starting to get concerned hearing so many gun people talk about what they will do in the future if the govt. goes to war against American citizens who believe in gun ownership and constitutional rights. What bothers me is that the "war" has already started and apparently many, many people either don't know it or are waiting until the govt. agents come down their street before they will actually fight. It was only a few years ago that I finally woke up to this "war" in progress and since that time I have put more and more effort and money placed as well as I know how into this war that is going on as we post and read. Even at that I am a little disappointed in myself because I still have not given until it "hurts" and until I start to do that I don't think I am really in the battle. And I feel this goes for others also.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,969 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    TRFOX..I FEEL THE SAME WAY. LIVING IN THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF KALIFORNIA I SEE MORE OF THIS CRAP ALL THE TIME. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW WHAT THEIR LEGESLATURE IS UP TO ON A DAILY BASIS. I JUST FOUND OUT THAT ONE OF MY GUN SAFES IS NO LONGER "LEGAL" IN THIS STATE. THIS RIGHT AFTER THE TRIGGER LOCK ON MY BROWNING SHOTGUN WAS CONFISCATED BY THE FFL AT THE GUN SHOP THAT RECIEVED IT. IT APPEARS IT'S NOT ON THE "APPROVED" LIST. SIDE BY SIDE WITH ONE THAT WAS, THERE WAS NO VISABLE DIFFERENCE IN EITHER LOCK OR KEY. PRIVATE PROPERTY CONFISCATED WITHOUT COMPENSATION OR DUE PROCESS. I NEVER GOT TO VOTE ON THIS LAW! THE ONLY HOPE I HAVE IS THE LUNACY OF THE LEFT HAS GONE SO FAR THAT PEOPLE ARE FINALY GETTING OFF THEIR A$$ES AND DOING SOMETHING. THE RECENT RECALL MOVEMENT HERE IS JUST THE START. THE LIBS SCREAMED THAT IT WAS A RIGHT WING MOVEMENT, IGNORING THE FACT OF HOW MANY DEMOCRATS SIGNED THE PETITIONS AND VOTED TO OUST GRAYOUT DUFIS. OH YEAH...AND THERE IS ALWAYS THE HOPE THAT SAN FRANCISCO WILL FALL OFF INTO THE PACIFIC.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    trapp55: roger that.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok, we have a point of one such thing. Branded criminals for killing cops and soldiers that were "just following orders" would be acceptable as a possible outcome. For me, there is a bigger, better reason to disarm the people.

    The wheels are in motion. The inevitable is on its way. Many of you here do not even realize the magnitude of this tragedy and travesty, so I will begin with it in the best way I can.

    Approximately 100 years ago, the unraveling began. Finally, some presidents and political idealists had been given great ideas as to social engineering, with the help of an already printed 40 year old text from the Kommunist Karl Marx. Exploiting a wound in our legal and historical basis (the wound caused to the 10th Amendment, thanks to the Civil War), a new concept had been inserted into the works. That concept had finally made it on the books, after two failed attempts, thwarted by the people, and that is the inception of the Income Tax. An Amendment had been introduced to the Constitution that was clearly unconstitutional (namely, the 16th Amendment), and this led to a new cancer among us.

    With the progressive income tax came a whole new wave of taxes, each whittling away at the capitalist nation we once were. With every new tax, businesses tightented their belts. WWI was also upon us, and this couldn't have happened at a worse time. People suddenly were, for the first time in history, without jobs in droves. This led us to the Great Depression. One way to reverse the course of this was to repeal the 16th Amendment then, but it didn't happen. The people were hung out to dry and left to fend for themselves.

    We then had a malefactor to the country begin to enact several new deals with the People of America. First would be to assail the American people by eliminating gold from commerce, making many assets suddenly useless, and putting the power to make money in the hands of a new entity that operates at its own will.. The Federal Reserve. The next dagger in the back of the people came to us in the form of the IRS. Enough said on that one. From these new economy restructuring edikts come the Sozialist Insekurity Akt. The fourth was, with flimsy justification, and as a possible outcome from the devastation wrought among the American people, and the possibility of a surge in Mafia activity, the 1934 Gun Control Act is passed, and for the first time since the Civil War, the assault on an inalienable right has ensued. Then FDR drove the ultimate blade in our backs... by plunging us into WWII, and thus activating the juggernaut of the war machine. He managed a declaration of war due to inciting conflicts with the Germans and the Japanese, and they had finally had enough. He ordered our ships escort other freighters and ships of supplies we had no business delivering to Europe, and then had our ships firing unprovoked shots at U-boats and planes, hoping they would return fire, and for a while, many didn't, because they wanted America left out of the struggle. NATO is formed, against the better judgment of our Founding Fathers, for more knowledgeable and wise that these vile boogers. As the war comes to a conclusion, the United Nations are formed (we all know how big a bane this has been, or at least we should by now) The practice of stationing troops all over the world since this time was conceived, and really is no surprise to me why so many other nations view us as the World Bully now, because it sure looks that way, now doesn't it? CONgress relinquishes another responsibility.. the power to declare war.

    The economy has been set up now to literally tax us to death and to be destroyed by something that never occurs with an honest money system... inflation. This is affected by three things primarily:

    1. When the Federal Reserve gets low, they print more money out of thin air, which devalues the money printed, because nothing is backing these new dollars.
    2. Union negotiations (the introduction of the cost of living adjustment comes from this, folks).
    3. From raised taxes to cover shortfallings and insurance monopolies (basically the same thing, just different principles and effects). These also affect the buying power of money and everything becomes more and more expensive as these are incorporated.

    The wheels of capitalism is greased, and when the wheel seizes, the S WILL HTF. Mark my words. At this point, no one will give a damn about the orphans and widows of the JBT's that tried to wrestle our guns from us, because we will all be SOL, and know who to turn our weapons on. FDR's gems are crumbling.... it's just a matter of time. That is why they find the urgency of beating our swords into plowshares right now.



    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    What a read gunphreak....a scarey one at that,most of which I knew I guess.I think most Americans know but do not want to see,or perhaps cannot connect the dots......sigh...
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,969 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    GREAT READ GUNPHREAK. YOU LEFT OUT NAFTA AND THE 12 BILLION THAT GOES SOUTH TO MEXICO EVERY YEAR AND THE UNBALANCED TRADE WITH OUR "FRIEND"? CHINA. OUR OPEN BORDERS THAT ARE BRINGING THIS COUNTRY DOWN TO A THIRD WORLD STATUS. FALLS RIGHT IN LINE WITH THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO. THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO IGNORE HISTORY, ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    damn, I wish I could get more people to read what gunphreak posted.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • 2gun2gun Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    well heres the problem if you look around the world guns dont make us free men.it is our gvernment and the imperfections that come with it that make us free. now its a bit of a paradox though because or right to own guns does make us free men.
    i will try to explain, look at th backwaters of africa or afghanistan wher everyone has a ak47 or heavier weapon and they are not free they are all swearing fealty to someone.at the same time in the wealthiest most liberal countries where you cant own a firearm like england you are not safe from their govts deciding to take something else away too without a means of defending themselves.
    we are lucky for whatever its worth,at this time we can own firearms and many states are allowing carrying rights like has never been seen before. its not the owning of firearms per se but the right to own them that gives us our freedom.
    you'll notice that in spite of all the gungrabbers there still are a lot of people believing the ban will sunset and certain places in this country wont be firearm friendly but others will. weve lost a few freedoms but in time the courts will reverse them as our basis is the law not some feel good thing.
    that pure capitalist society wasnt so good if you werent wealthy there did need to be a balance. have we gone too far? probably, but remember in fdr's time things were pretty bad here.there was an avid facsist movement and a communist movement. stalin was pretty convinced we would be red before the decade was out.
    while you may not like it, fdr probably saved the country,but the politicians afterward did what any good politician does expands on a good job until it becomes something awful and thats what all the help programs have become.
    nafta and gatt are great examples of a good thing gone bad. free trade sounds good, i'll produce and you'll produce and rather than taxing each others product to death so someone local can make it well let the market even things out.....but.......take a huge society like china that is controlled top to bottom by their goverment and noone can compete since they create artificially low wages. so here we have a jobless recovery and politicians afraid that guys with military style rifles may one day be part of an uprising when there is too many taxes no employment and a lot of misery.
    perhaps that day will come but i hope it is a long time away. because a true democracy would look like our last election,really close and a whole lot of people feeling they wuz screwed. and anything else we might look like some of those goverments in the rest of the world we hate or worst of all , no goverment and a whole lot of peiople with guns and noone safe ala mogadishu.
    think about it were free in spite of everything

    happiness is a warm gun, preferably preban
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    2gun.....where to start?Free? As compared to what.Are we,compared to lots of other countries,YES.As far as what the FATHERS INTENDED? NO!! This sounds a lot like that "Its all in your perspective stuff" No insult intended,and yes you r right the politicians did it and then "overdid"it.Problem is as you look thru our history you may see that we seem to NEVER get all we lost back.I do not see ourselves as "FREE" as we were when I was growing up even...I hope also...but just what does history tell us?
  • gunphreakgunphreak Member Posts: 1,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Trap55,

    Shall I continue?

    WWII has concluded. The first president to enact a police akt, Harry Truman, becomes the first to declare war without CONgress' approval; we call that the Korean War. Next move, to do it again, and this time, orchestrated by JFK; this time called the Vietnam War. This war raged throughout LBJ's reign, but something very insidious occured during this time... the second direct assault against the 2nd Amendment.... The 1968 NFA Akt. Ironic, really, considering that this law parallels the 1938 Nazi Weapon Law in its wording, as if Nazi Weapon laws have any place in America. Maybe we can recall what else was occuring in the world at this point. Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, The Black Panthers.... this was why Demonkrats passed this vile edikt. (And they call themselves the Party of the Minorities... with friends like this...) Ahh, the Civil "rights" movement... nothing like gaining equality through creating a superior, protected class of people, now is there. It is my guess that MLK's vision of the Free America spoken of in the "I Have a Dream" speech has absolutely no correlation to the one expressed by thugs like Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton, or any of these other racists.

    Since this time, the American War Machine has been a blood thirsty juggernaut, jumping from country to country... against the better judgment of the Founders. This has also contributed to killing many of our best men, in the meantime, we are flocked with hippies, hippies, hippies. And with them come the drugs, the free sex, the immoral behaviors and spiritual "experiences" that come with these bottom feeding scavengers. Something else occured at this time, which is, by far the most vile thing that had ever happened up to this point. The court system had aided the atheists of this country by breaking precedents and pandering to a minority of godless (idiots), and the dissection of the school systems began. This has ended up with children not knowing history, many times not knowing how to read, and not being taught right from wrong, in favor of them being taught that being a friend or a lezzie is OK, and that being a liberal is the party of the enlightened, and whatever new leftist fad comes out. We now see a society of idiots (minus the ones who proved too intelligent to succumb to the indoctrination process of our government run learning institutes) too stupid to realize what it really means to be a substance-over-symbolism red blooded true American, in favor of being a socialistic kommie who is tripping over the rest of them to squander their birth rights, with the help of their malefactive leaders in Hollywood, in the media, and in the activist ranks.

    Shall I continue?

    The birth of new unseen technology brings a market nearly dominated by other countries to which are mostly third world, kommie run $h!th0le$ to which do not have to abide by our patent laws, and we can no longer compete. This problem only made worse by the fact that inflation had driven the value of our dollar to be 1/10th of what it was worth, and people drawing Sozialist Insekurity are beginning to learn how this affects them, as their fixed incomes do not have the buying power it once had. A new generation of children, raised by lackadaisical methods (mostly due to both parents having to work to make ends meet) turn out to be lazy, undereducated (for the first time in history, a generation turns out knowing on average less than their parents) brats that want everything without working for it, because they feel they shouldn't have to (a symptom of a reality-deprived ingrate). A new killer disease infects the people, known today as HIV. Droughts and fires rage unchecked, burning millions of dollars of property, and causing crops to fail all over the country.

    Capitalist America is bleeding to death. We now have to compete with standards that we cannot possibly meet, and the tariffs we exercised then are not in effect now, thanks to crap like NAFTA, and the Europeans to which we booted out 200 years ago, we helped out 50 years ago, and now we are, more or less inviting them right back in to screw our country up, once more. On top of this, with all the new taxes, codes, licenses (for virtually everything), and permits, along with a new band of bureauRAT offices and departments, an immense net of entanglement consisting of 2 million laws, many of which are arbitrary to other laws while supreme court (in)justices seldom agree on the meaning of any of them, or are victimless crimes committed against a legal abstract called "the state". Frivilous lawsuits are heard, and in many cases create more crimes in one day in the courtrooms than on the streets in a whole year (yes, you heard that right).

    to be continued....

    Death to Tyrants!!!
    Lev 26:14-39

    Remember how many seats were lost after AWB passage? Vae victis!
    Those who would offer any interpretation that would relegate Amendment II to "relic" status of a bygone era are blatantly stating that the remainder of the Bill of Rights isn't worth a damn, either.

    Luke 22:36.
  • 2gun2gun Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    longhunter youre right....but....what would you replace it with if the revolution were held tommorrow? some of the alternatives are scarier to me than having bill clinton president again.
    i am probably quite a bit younger than you and still dont see myself as free as i was when younger but it doesnt change the inherrent fact that for a lot who would advocate revolution because the majority(or even a vocal minority) dont agree with them would have a version of freedom that would make saddam quite pleased.
    at least we have been able to change goverments every 4-8 years without cataclysmic upheaval and for periods of time we have been less free and the ball always swings back over time. look at right to carry and shall issue legislation.i'm sure if you asked the gungrabbers in 94 whether or not 43 states would have concealed carry rights today they would have laughed, they were well on thier way to eliminating guns. it hasnt happenned.

    would president bush be any slower to ban assualt weapons. if his dad was any judge, no. they are from an elitist viewpoint and may disagrree politically with clinton but when it comes to military type guns they have the same views.

    lastly where are the people more free than here? where even guys who dont like everything the goverment has to say can (go out and buy a gun and) say what he wants without fear of disappearing one night. we dont need to pay baksheesh to every little official to get anything done.there are a lot of other examples and you probably know them all as well as me.

    could we be more free? absolutely. is this what our founding fathers envisioned? probably not.but they established a system where even lousy decisions could be revisited and changed (dredd scott decision) at a later date as warranted and it worked so far. remember our founding fathers were men. imperfect men who had their own problems but they created this grand experiment which is still working in spite of todays politicos who know not anything else but the trough.

    i'm not really sure where to go from here, i'm the family gun nut here and have a fun time explaining to relatives why i dont need a reason to own guns any more than i need a reason to own a sportscar its my right as a free man. ive taken a lot of them shooting and its awfully funny how many men tell me afterward they would own a gun but their wives wouldnt let them keep it in the house. i suppose the wife is the llimit on being free. luckily i have a wife who was scared of guns when i met here but now loves handguns and a few of my rifles. at least here theres a document that says im free to own firearms and it cant be taken away as easily as it was in the rest of the free world.

    happiness is a warm gun, preferably preban
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,969 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    GUNPHREAK, I WISH YOU WERE A SOCIOLOGY TEACHER IN MY KIDS SCHOOL OR ANY SCHOOL FOR THAT MATTER. I'M KINDA NEW HERE ON THE FORUMS AND DAMB GLAD I FOUND IT. AT FIRST I FELT LIKE WE ARE JUST PREACHING TO THE CHOIR BUT HAVE REALISED I LEARN SOMETHING NEW HERE EVERY DAY. i got critized for using caps so i guess now would be a good time to stop. i sometimes worry what will be left of our nation for my children to inherit or even worse, what kind of nation will inherit my children. when i see what kind of B.S. they teach them in the schools it boils my blood. every thing you have outlined so far is plainly self evident but most people just let it blow by. PLEASE continue! i've got my teenage boys interested in the G.B. site and now i've got them reading this forum. i think they are getting a REAL EDUCATION here!
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